Post by catcher on Apr 6, 2021 2:36:02 GMT
Warning: Even by my standards this is long and pretty deep into game design. If you've read some of my previous topics, you know what you are getting into. If not, dive in but you have been warned.
By Player Rewards, I mean all the things developers use to tell us (the Players) that we have done something right and to get us to do it again or keep doing it. It's the Ding, the cha-ching, the thing Cass does, and a whole bunch of other rings. I have a list below broken down in no particular order though I've tried to keep similar things grouped together for ease of reading. As with most of my stuff, I have some suggestions on how to make things different (hopefully better) than they have been in the past with an I on DA:I as a baseline.
STUFF
Stuff is probably the easiest type of reward to give and measure. It's also pretty universally enjoyed as we know from the whole looter shooter genre explosion. DA:I tried a volume approach that didn't really work well for me. For DA4, I have a few suggestions that rely less on amounts and more on linking Stuff to Story and Characters.
Money: In DA:I this was straight gold which is probably where we will be for DA4 as well. Conversion between coin types is a really low-level mechanic that could highlight some cultural differences but that's a bit of a stretch for entertainment value even in PnP games so I don't see DA:Os Gold/Silver/Copper making a return. To me, money in DA:I became largely worthless as soon as I discovered I could craft anything I wanted better than anything I could buy. There were some fairly rare moments in DA:I (schematics when I didn't get lucky on loot, herbs when I didn't want to do a bunch of harvesting, influence to get a new perk) where gold was marginally useful, but for most Bioware games, money has been about buying better stuff. Fixing crafting from DA:I would help but I have a different idea: bribes. We've seen them occasionally (the 'magic license' in BG2 and paying off the bandits on the bridge in Lothering come to mind) but, with probable urban locales like Minrathous, Nevarra City, and Antiva City in DA4, I would like to see more of how money can grease some wheels. Maybe a bribe can make an area more accessible when you need it to be instead of crawling through the sewers. Maybe some ready cash gets you some forged documents to get into that mysterious warehouse with all the halla statues on top. There have to be several applications for this to really work well, but getting money involved as something other than a number to pile up will have the Players scrambling for it like they did in DA:O. Plus, using money this way drives more NOC interaction which is a Reward in itself and I'm all about multiple rewards for game actions.
Valueables: First, I'd really like to see the unique pics of valuables come back as opposed to the generic statue, gem and other stuff. It just has more impact. Second, how about bringing back a limited version of the Gifts from Origins? Not the five-and-dime-a-rama but singular, unique gifts for each Companion that fire real, deep interaction with Comanions. Think Morrigan's Mirror, Duncan's Shield for Allistair, or Sten's Asala, but turned up another notch. Writers are looking for ways to better gateway certain branches of Companion dialogue. Gifts could be a way to do that in a different way.
Items: Here I kind of begin to transition from Stuff to Power by talking about Stuff that traditionally has granted Power. That's especially true if the combat system is based on Inquisition's since weapon damage then drives combat scaling and effectiveness. So many thoughts in this area. Bioware needs to take a serious look at crafting and the role of crafted weapons in DA4. Whatever mechanic is chosen, it should be nearly impossible for an average run through to produce one Unique level item muchless an entire collection that surpasses them. Limiting crafting from Inquisition will give new life to the items we find, especially the Rare and unique items. They become rewards again instead of things to selloff for more gold that we pile up and can't use. While we're at it, scale down the sheer number of "different" weapons in the same class and give them a bit more combat character instead. don't just go with 2 or 3 or 5 % in say armor penetration or sunder, go with numbers like 10 or 20%. With weapon damage scaling, that won't make as much of a difference with lower level weapons to make them imbalanced, but it will better drive decisions for Players as to which weapons they choose. Beware letting light armor be close to as protective against physical harm as medium, much less heavy. Each armor tier should be more distinct in what it does for which role. For something completely different, introduce one shot or limited use items that 'store' spell effects. I mean, very limited shot equivalents to wands in D&D. How good would it be to have a couple of 'snowball sapphires' against an unexpected Rage demon when you are stuck with a Fire staff? These things would be very rare in the magiphobic South but could easily be more common, especially where the relationship between society and magic is as close as Tevinter. Such things might even make a party without a Mage more doable as a strategic approach.
POWER
Power is another of those old, well-travelled classes of Player Rewards and has underpinned the whole idea of a CRPG for decades now. We all know that little rush from getting a new spell, skill, ability points, and whatever that allows us to do more thrilling stuff with our Protag avatar and Companions. Inquisition also tried to include an institutional Power metric complete with lightshow effects and linkage to access to areas. I believe the goal was to try to recapture the success and acclaim of Baldur's Gate 2 but it failed for many here (and I think overall as well) for several reasons. I'm not going to rehash that but I do think there's a possible way to leverage a' Power' metric separate from personal power that fits DA4s current feel and repair some of the issues with its implementation in DA:I. But first, the standards...
XPs: We've done the bling, now the Ding. XPs should be an easy thing to get right at this point, but it seemed there was some strange math going on in inquisition (or I was doing it wrong, which is always possible ). It seems you zoomed past the first four or five levels really quickly, then ground through two or three, then flew again up through 10 to the lower teens, then ground a bit and so on. I think part of it was the whole nature of the main story quests being 'this or that' before Skyhold, then 'this and that' after. There's also a tendency in most later games to quickly move through early levels because having limited powers and resources is scary and boring (how many times can you fight rats and weak goblins?) To me, that just means the early levels need more work not an escalator clause. Baldur's Gate 1 pulled it off, but that's a seeming Stone Age away. Maybe allow lower level characters to have more powers but be able to use them less frequently (limited by Stamina/Mana or something else) so they seem less oddly powerful next to later levels? I also think some activities in Inquisition tended to have outsized boosts in XP like closing Rifts. The point is, the progression should be targeted to be smoother and maybe not reach great heights (like Level 20) so we can actually have a shot and carrying over the DA4 Protag to DA5 like Baldur's Gate did? One other idea: move more of the XP to actual quests and away from combat hordes. If DA4 is doing more subtle, slaying rows of random combat trash should be something not to be encouraged. Plus, that puts more control in the writers/devs hands.
Skills/Spells: I'm not going to try to go into Inquisition's combat system here. Instead, just a thought on how to leverage Skills and Spells as more of a reward system than they are already. How about you can add some unique skills/spells by finding certain items (like scrolls in the D&D-based games)? You would likely want to hand-place these and they should be rare but a great treasure for those motivated by more power. This isn't really revolutionary; we had Amulet's of Power in Inquisition but they were oddly placed and only allowed the same kind of access you could get out of one level up. This method pushes to be more integrated while feeling like more of a reward for something done really well. If the Skill/Spell tree expands from DA:i, there could be more 'leaf' advances like the ones added in Trespasser to add different character and advantages to the same power without leaving Players who don't get the bonus completely out.
Chutzpah: This is what I am calling the new Power equivalent for DA4. You can substitute your own word for the kind of boldness that will be required for a callow sellsword, a scruffy pickpocket, or a raggedy apprentice to rise to challenge an ancient god of the Elves. We know we won't have the political acumen, the surveillance skullduggery, or military bucketheads of the Inquisition. Our Notquisitor will need to get by on daring, guile, and probably not a few friends in low places. To this end, I offer that achieving certain story results and a limited number of side quests should accrue points of Chutzpah. Chutzpah in DA4 would also replace the largely redundant Influence meter as well so that achieving certain levels of Chutzpah would grant access to perks appropriate to your station. Unlike Power, Chutpah isn't spent but some parts of the story should have a gateway mechanism based on just how much folk BS is required to get your seemy self in the door. You are not getting a Dress Ball invite to the Doge's palace, but all the expensive stuff isn't on the ballroom floor anyway.
Role Play
This is the reward for all the wannabe actors out there playing these games (and I'm in the front of that line ) This may seem like old stuff but its actually fairly new historically speaking. I've played many RPGs from the 80s into the 90s that had no or purely perfunctory nods to the Story, just kill the Big Bad with you and your spreadsheet friends and roll credits. There's a whole array of different rewards in this category now. To some degree, there were some successes in Inquisition here but I do have suggestions.
Aggrandizement: Fancy word for in-game praise. The earliest example I remember of this are statues made of the adventuring party in Trademeet for Baldurs Gate 2 but there could be earlier. Inquisition has a couple of moments like that in the walk from the Inquisitor's cabin to the Haven Chantry after stabilizing the Breach (quite effective since it parallels the 'walk of the condemned man' at the start of the game) or being declared Inquisitor at Skyhold. I actually thought they did this fairly well in DA:I in big moments like the ones I mentioned and in the bits of conversation you could pick up in villages and Halamshiral. The only suggestion, keep it up and make it fit the less formal Notquisitor.
NPC Interactions: We all know what these are. Companion interactions I think were generally good though I would like more cases where the Companions find you and initiate dialogue (like Sten does in camp during Origins in challenging your tactics, say). It gives them a bit more verisimilitude and also can help define Companions. For example, if it were Inquisition, Cassandra would come right at (I mean to, yes, to) you. Cole would probably just pop up somewhere saying something wistfully symbolic. Vivianne would send a servant. So on. The bigger question is expanding non-Companion interactions, preferably those that don't end in massive bloodshed and the end of the NPCs life. There should be a couple of NPCs that have real lives and character too, not just as quest dispensers. There was a bit of this in the Mother Giselle character, we should see more like in DA4. If we are getting all the varied cultures and areas that have been name-dropped, then deeper non-Companion NPCs are a must. One more unexplored corner of NPC Interactions: villians. I'm importing this from another topic but being able to talk to a viilan outside the Killing Fields could make the whole struggle against them far more meaningful for the Player. Let our Protagonist match one of Solas' minions in wits (which means the villian should actually be something of a match unlike too many in Inquisition). Too many good quotes and arguments by people like Samson, Calpurnia, Alexius, etc. were left in notes and prison conversations instead of challenging the Protag throughout the game. Ultimately, the struggle between the Protagonist and Antagonist (or proxy) is best as a contest of values and limits as well as steel and spell. Expand the range of deeper NPCs we can explore outside the Companions and the game will soar.
Lore: Two big suggestions: one I've already said but will repeat and another I think everyone has said about Inquisition. The first, with Lore, show don't tell, tell don't write. Inquisition had entirely too much good story and lore stuck in notes that could be easily missed or had little impact when they weren't missed. If Lore is truly part of the world and a reward, it should live in the world. If you need to have someone tell a simplified version, then store the complete version in the Archive, do it. The second, make a easily searchable loreapedia. Firaxis has been sticking every little bit of Civilization trivia in an easily searchable format since Civ IV, surely Bioware can get its act together and get something like that working. Full stop.
SUNDRY
I don't like catchall categories but these rewards don't really fit one of the others. I'll take suggestions on how to better organize these and other elements that will no doubt follow.
Collections: I need some help from the completionists who enjoy this sort of activity because I'm just not big on it. The shards collection quest had some loot, a personal boost, and a bit of lore. The payoff seemed too light for the breadth of the full task (I'm doing a playthrough focused on shard collection right now) to me but I know it wasn't that way for everyone. The bottles were a waste to me. Maybe something like that could tie into an NPC who may be someone important, maybe even someone wolfy, or not. The tiles were a neat lore touch, but probably would have benefited from being better integrated into some kind of plot.
Maps: I kind of wish this had been more/bigger of a thing. Maps that allow a Player to access better location information on some Quests or even new Quests could make them more valuable. They could also be used to mitigate some of the empty area issues by indicating where major side quests are located. Maps of this sort might use a bit of the overhead view while leaving out some details with tears or smudges. Maps can be more common and replace some of the functions of the diamonds automatically appearing on the area map.
I think one overriding element to all of this in moving from Inquisition to DA4 is to more completely link the rewards to somehow progressing a story, whether its the main quest or a side quest. That is, don't just sprinkle an area with Venatori or Red templars and Red Lyrium. Have an actual part of the story to tell with each type of reward pointing to a goal (not necessarilly the main Quest goal). Thanks for reading this. Please critique and more importantly add your own ideas because I keep learning with every post.
By Player Rewards, I mean all the things developers use to tell us (the Players) that we have done something right and to get us to do it again or keep doing it. It's the Ding, the cha-ching, the thing Cass does, and a whole bunch of other rings. I have a list below broken down in no particular order though I've tried to keep similar things grouped together for ease of reading. As with most of my stuff, I have some suggestions on how to make things different (hopefully better) than they have been in the past with an I on DA:I as a baseline.
STUFF
Stuff is probably the easiest type of reward to give and measure. It's also pretty universally enjoyed as we know from the whole looter shooter genre explosion. DA:I tried a volume approach that didn't really work well for me. For DA4, I have a few suggestions that rely less on amounts and more on linking Stuff to Story and Characters.
Money: In DA:I this was straight gold which is probably where we will be for DA4 as well. Conversion between coin types is a really low-level mechanic that could highlight some cultural differences but that's a bit of a stretch for entertainment value even in PnP games so I don't see DA:Os Gold/Silver/Copper making a return. To me, money in DA:I became largely worthless as soon as I discovered I could craft anything I wanted better than anything I could buy. There were some fairly rare moments in DA:I (schematics when I didn't get lucky on loot, herbs when I didn't want to do a bunch of harvesting, influence to get a new perk) where gold was marginally useful, but for most Bioware games, money has been about buying better stuff. Fixing crafting from DA:I would help but I have a different idea: bribes. We've seen them occasionally (the 'magic license' in BG2 and paying off the bandits on the bridge in Lothering come to mind) but, with probable urban locales like Minrathous, Nevarra City, and Antiva City in DA4, I would like to see more of how money can grease some wheels. Maybe a bribe can make an area more accessible when you need it to be instead of crawling through the sewers. Maybe some ready cash gets you some forged documents to get into that mysterious warehouse with all the halla statues on top. There have to be several applications for this to really work well, but getting money involved as something other than a number to pile up will have the Players scrambling for it like they did in DA:O. Plus, using money this way drives more NOC interaction which is a Reward in itself and I'm all about multiple rewards for game actions.
Valueables: First, I'd really like to see the unique pics of valuables come back as opposed to the generic statue, gem and other stuff. It just has more impact. Second, how about bringing back a limited version of the Gifts from Origins? Not the five-and-dime-a-rama but singular, unique gifts for each Companion that fire real, deep interaction with Comanions. Think Morrigan's Mirror, Duncan's Shield for Allistair, or Sten's Asala, but turned up another notch. Writers are looking for ways to better gateway certain branches of Companion dialogue. Gifts could be a way to do that in a different way.
Items: Here I kind of begin to transition from Stuff to Power by talking about Stuff that traditionally has granted Power. That's especially true if the combat system is based on Inquisition's since weapon damage then drives combat scaling and effectiveness. So many thoughts in this area. Bioware needs to take a serious look at crafting and the role of crafted weapons in DA4. Whatever mechanic is chosen, it should be nearly impossible for an average run through to produce one Unique level item muchless an entire collection that surpasses them. Limiting crafting from Inquisition will give new life to the items we find, especially the Rare and unique items. They become rewards again instead of things to selloff for more gold that we pile up and can't use. While we're at it, scale down the sheer number of "different" weapons in the same class and give them a bit more combat character instead. don't just go with 2 or 3 or 5 % in say armor penetration or sunder, go with numbers like 10 or 20%. With weapon damage scaling, that won't make as much of a difference with lower level weapons to make them imbalanced, but it will better drive decisions for Players as to which weapons they choose. Beware letting light armor be close to as protective against physical harm as medium, much less heavy. Each armor tier should be more distinct in what it does for which role. For something completely different, introduce one shot or limited use items that 'store' spell effects. I mean, very limited shot equivalents to wands in D&D. How good would it be to have a couple of 'snowball sapphires' against an unexpected Rage demon when you are stuck with a Fire staff? These things would be very rare in the magiphobic South but could easily be more common, especially where the relationship between society and magic is as close as Tevinter. Such things might even make a party without a Mage more doable as a strategic approach.
POWER
Power is another of those old, well-travelled classes of Player Rewards and has underpinned the whole idea of a CRPG for decades now. We all know that little rush from getting a new spell, skill, ability points, and whatever that allows us to do more thrilling stuff with our Protag avatar and Companions. Inquisition also tried to include an institutional Power metric complete with lightshow effects and linkage to access to areas. I believe the goal was to try to recapture the success and acclaim of Baldur's Gate 2 but it failed for many here (and I think overall as well) for several reasons. I'm not going to rehash that but I do think there's a possible way to leverage a' Power' metric separate from personal power that fits DA4s current feel and repair some of the issues with its implementation in DA:I. But first, the standards...
XPs: We've done the bling, now the Ding. XPs should be an easy thing to get right at this point, but it seemed there was some strange math going on in inquisition (or I was doing it wrong, which is always possible ). It seems you zoomed past the first four or five levels really quickly, then ground through two or three, then flew again up through 10 to the lower teens, then ground a bit and so on. I think part of it was the whole nature of the main story quests being 'this or that' before Skyhold, then 'this and that' after. There's also a tendency in most later games to quickly move through early levels because having limited powers and resources is scary and boring (how many times can you fight rats and weak goblins?) To me, that just means the early levels need more work not an escalator clause. Baldur's Gate 1 pulled it off, but that's a seeming Stone Age away. Maybe allow lower level characters to have more powers but be able to use them less frequently (limited by Stamina/Mana or something else) so they seem less oddly powerful next to later levels? I also think some activities in Inquisition tended to have outsized boosts in XP like closing Rifts. The point is, the progression should be targeted to be smoother and maybe not reach great heights (like Level 20) so we can actually have a shot and carrying over the DA4 Protag to DA5 like Baldur's Gate did? One other idea: move more of the XP to actual quests and away from combat hordes. If DA4 is doing more subtle, slaying rows of random combat trash should be something not to be encouraged. Plus, that puts more control in the writers/devs hands.
Skills/Spells: I'm not going to try to go into Inquisition's combat system here. Instead, just a thought on how to leverage Skills and Spells as more of a reward system than they are already. How about you can add some unique skills/spells by finding certain items (like scrolls in the D&D-based games)? You would likely want to hand-place these and they should be rare but a great treasure for those motivated by more power. This isn't really revolutionary; we had Amulet's of Power in Inquisition but they were oddly placed and only allowed the same kind of access you could get out of one level up. This method pushes to be more integrated while feeling like more of a reward for something done really well. If the Skill/Spell tree expands from DA:i, there could be more 'leaf' advances like the ones added in Trespasser to add different character and advantages to the same power without leaving Players who don't get the bonus completely out.
Chutzpah: This is what I am calling the new Power equivalent for DA4. You can substitute your own word for the kind of boldness that will be required for a callow sellsword, a scruffy pickpocket, or a raggedy apprentice to rise to challenge an ancient god of the Elves. We know we won't have the political acumen, the surveillance skullduggery, or military bucketheads of the Inquisition. Our Notquisitor will need to get by on daring, guile, and probably not a few friends in low places. To this end, I offer that achieving certain story results and a limited number of side quests should accrue points of Chutzpah. Chutzpah in DA4 would also replace the largely redundant Influence meter as well so that achieving certain levels of Chutzpah would grant access to perks appropriate to your station. Unlike Power, Chutpah isn't spent but some parts of the story should have a gateway mechanism based on just how much folk BS is required to get your seemy self in the door. You are not getting a Dress Ball invite to the Doge's palace, but all the expensive stuff isn't on the ballroom floor anyway.
Role Play
This is the reward for all the wannabe actors out there playing these games (and I'm in the front of that line ) This may seem like old stuff but its actually fairly new historically speaking. I've played many RPGs from the 80s into the 90s that had no or purely perfunctory nods to the Story, just kill the Big Bad with you and your spreadsheet friends and roll credits. There's a whole array of different rewards in this category now. To some degree, there were some successes in Inquisition here but I do have suggestions.
Aggrandizement: Fancy word for in-game praise. The earliest example I remember of this are statues made of the adventuring party in Trademeet for Baldurs Gate 2 but there could be earlier. Inquisition has a couple of moments like that in the walk from the Inquisitor's cabin to the Haven Chantry after stabilizing the Breach (quite effective since it parallels the 'walk of the condemned man' at the start of the game) or being declared Inquisitor at Skyhold. I actually thought they did this fairly well in DA:I in big moments like the ones I mentioned and in the bits of conversation you could pick up in villages and Halamshiral. The only suggestion, keep it up and make it fit the less formal Notquisitor.
NPC Interactions: We all know what these are. Companion interactions I think were generally good though I would like more cases where the Companions find you and initiate dialogue (like Sten does in camp during Origins in challenging your tactics, say). It gives them a bit more verisimilitude and also can help define Companions. For example, if it were Inquisition, Cassandra would come right at (I mean to, yes, to) you. Cole would probably just pop up somewhere saying something wistfully symbolic. Vivianne would send a servant. So on. The bigger question is expanding non-Companion interactions, preferably those that don't end in massive bloodshed and the end of the NPCs life. There should be a couple of NPCs that have real lives and character too, not just as quest dispensers. There was a bit of this in the Mother Giselle character, we should see more like in DA4. If we are getting all the varied cultures and areas that have been name-dropped, then deeper non-Companion NPCs are a must. One more unexplored corner of NPC Interactions: villians. I'm importing this from another topic but being able to talk to a viilan outside the Killing Fields could make the whole struggle against them far more meaningful for the Player. Let our Protagonist match one of Solas' minions in wits (which means the villian should actually be something of a match unlike too many in Inquisition). Too many good quotes and arguments by people like Samson, Calpurnia, Alexius, etc. were left in notes and prison conversations instead of challenging the Protag throughout the game. Ultimately, the struggle between the Protagonist and Antagonist (or proxy) is best as a contest of values and limits as well as steel and spell. Expand the range of deeper NPCs we can explore outside the Companions and the game will soar.
Lore: Two big suggestions: one I've already said but will repeat and another I think everyone has said about Inquisition. The first, with Lore, show don't tell, tell don't write. Inquisition had entirely too much good story and lore stuck in notes that could be easily missed or had little impact when they weren't missed. If Lore is truly part of the world and a reward, it should live in the world. If you need to have someone tell a simplified version, then store the complete version in the Archive, do it. The second, make a easily searchable loreapedia. Firaxis has been sticking every little bit of Civilization trivia in an easily searchable format since Civ IV, surely Bioware can get its act together and get something like that working. Full stop.
SUNDRY
I don't like catchall categories but these rewards don't really fit one of the others. I'll take suggestions on how to better organize these and other elements that will no doubt follow.
Collections: I need some help from the completionists who enjoy this sort of activity because I'm just not big on it. The shards collection quest had some loot, a personal boost, and a bit of lore. The payoff seemed too light for the breadth of the full task (I'm doing a playthrough focused on shard collection right now) to me but I know it wasn't that way for everyone. The bottles were a waste to me. Maybe something like that could tie into an NPC who may be someone important, maybe even someone wolfy, or not. The tiles were a neat lore touch, but probably would have benefited from being better integrated into some kind of plot.
Maps: I kind of wish this had been more/bigger of a thing. Maps that allow a Player to access better location information on some Quests or even new Quests could make them more valuable. They could also be used to mitigate some of the empty area issues by indicating where major side quests are located. Maps of this sort might use a bit of the overhead view while leaving out some details with tears or smudges. Maps can be more common and replace some of the functions of the diamonds automatically appearing on the area map.
I think one overriding element to all of this in moving from Inquisition to DA4 is to more completely link the rewards to somehow progressing a story, whether its the main quest or a side quest. That is, don't just sprinkle an area with Venatori or Red templars and Red Lyrium. Have an actual part of the story to tell with each type of reward pointing to a goal (not necessarilly the main Quest goal). Thanks for reading this. Please critique and more importantly add your own ideas because I keep learning with every post.