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Post by fenris on Oct 30, 2016 5:55:05 GMT
Although, somewhat confusingly, this reference contains a plural ("those who soured") and, of course, in ME2, we know that Shepard is no longer seeking to bring down just Sovereign (been there, already did that)... but rather he/she is seeking out a way to stop the rest of the Reapers. Well it's possible that they didn't know there were more than one before Shepard exposed the reapers... So in ME 1 they just talked of the one they knew of, but in 2 they already knew there are more, hence they use the plural version. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2016 9:22:10 GMT
Although, somewhat confusingly, this reference contains a plural ("those who soured") and, of course, in ME2, we know that Shepard is no longer seeking to bring down just Sovereign (been there, already did that)... but rather he/she is seeking out a way to stop the rest of the Reapers. Well it's possible that they didn't know there were more than one before Shepard exposed the reapers... So in ME 1 they just talked of the one they knew of, but in 2 they already knew there are more, hence they use the plural version. Who is "they?" - We're talking about a single Rachni Queen (and the last know surviving Rachni Queen at that) relating her 'in egg" experience with the Rachni Wars. None of her progeny would have any different experience than she does because she's the one that has to "sing" that experience to them in the first place. It's more likely that it would be a distortion of the history because that lore is being passed down by word of mouth. |
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Post by fenris on Oct 30, 2016 10:17:14 GMT
Well MINE is a slip up  But my point still stands |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2016 11:49:03 GMT
Well MINE is a slip up But my point still stands I would say that Shepard exposing that the Reapers exist out in dark space would be irrelevant because throughout ME1, there was only 1 living Reaper in the entire galaxy - Sovereign. The other Reapers were unable to access the galaxy because they were locked out in dark space and that situation remained through the end of ME2. The Reaper corpse inside the galaxy that Shepard is sent to by TIM during ME2 is portrayed as being 37 million years old - i.e. dead long before the Rachni Wars... and it is during ME2, of course, that we encounter the Asari on Ilium who passes the Queen's message along in the plural. No knowledge gained by Shepard during ME3 (e.g. about Leviathan) would apply to her statements. In other words, there is no information available to the Rachni Queen that should cause her to change her mind about their being a " tone from space that forced the singers to resonate with it's own sour yellow note" (and all of that was clearly stated by her in the singular tense in ME1). As I said, there may have been more vanguard Reapers around at the time of the Rachni Wars and you're certainly free to insert that sort of speculation into your interpretation of the game, but the game itself does not actually indicate any such thing to us through to the end of ME2. What Vigil tells us is that Sovereign was the vanguard Reaper left behind in the galaxy... making him the only reaper in the galaxy for the previous 50,000 years. |
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Oct 30, 2016 15:19:45 GMT
It sounds to me like the sour note only came during the end of the Rachnni War. Which means Sovereign didn't start the war but he saw how effective the Rachnni were and attempted to indotrinate a few to be taken to some unknown part of the galaxy to breed as an opening salvo in the harvest. I see where you're heading with this, but my take is that the Queen's mother relayed the story about the "tone from space" like a mother telling a child born during a war about how that war started. I really do believe that Sovereign is the one who issued that tone as one of his earlier attempt to raise allies to storm the Citadel (as alluded to by Vigil on Ilos). The Queen's egg itself may have been laid at any time though... very near the beginning of the war would be possible since we don't know when the ship became derelict. The Queen's egg may have ridden out the entire centuries of the war and the millennia afterwards frozen aboard that ship. Also, keep in mind that the entire population is not indoctrinated at once... even on Earth where there are signals coming from not just a single reaper but hoards of them. As it's rachni minions fell in battle, sovereign would have had a need to indoctrinate more to replenish his troops... the "tone" would then be an ongoing thing right throughout the war from beginning to end. I don't see anything in the dialogue that precludes Sovereign's influence being what provoked the Rachni to behave violently against those "explorers" who opened the relay an intruded on their space. Of course, it can also be interpreted that the rachni were just being territorial (which is how Benezia describes them). This is really just another example of how, in this game, Bioware uses little suggestions in multiple directions that allow for multiple and often opposing interpretations to be made by different players. Rather than AC's slogan "Nothing is true. Everything is permitted." I'd say, it goes "Nothing is concrete. Anything remains possible." But the Rachni are controlled by the Queen. The nature of indoctrination is they are not fully aware of it till someone points it out. The hive mind of Rachni would mean once the queen is gone then the rest of the hive soon follows. It would only make sense if there was a civil war among the rachni first before they launched into a war against the other races. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2016 15:31:25 GMT
I see where you're heading with this, but my take is that the Queen's mother relayed the story about the "tone from space" like a mother telling a child born during a war about how that war started. I really do believe that Sovereign is the one who issued that tone as one of his earlier attempt to raise allies to storm the Citadel (as alluded to by Vigil on Ilos). The Queen's egg itself may have been laid at any time though... very near the beginning of the war would be possible since we don't know when the ship became derelict. The Queen's egg may have ridden out the entire centuries of the war and the millennia afterwards frozen aboard that ship. Also, keep in mind that the entire population is not indoctrinated at once... even on Earth where there are signals coming from not just a single reaper but hoards of them. As it's rachni minions fell in battle, sovereign would have had a need to indoctrinate more to replenish his troops... the "tone" would then be an ongoing thing right throughout the war from beginning to end. I don't see anything in the dialogue that precludes Sovereign's influence being what provoked the Rachni to behave violently against those "explorers" who opened the relay an intruded on their space. Of course, it can also be interpreted that the rachni were just being territorial (which is how Benezia describes them). This is really just another example of how, in this game, Bioware uses little suggestions in multiple directions that allow for multiple and often opposing interpretations to be made by different players. Rather than AC's slogan "Nothing is true. Everything is permitted." I'd say, it goes "Nothing is concrete. Anything remains possible." But the Rachni are controlled by the Queen. The nature of indoctrination is they are not fully aware of it till someone points it out. The hive mind of Rachni would mean once the queen is gone then the rest of the hive soon follows. It would only make sense if there was a civil war among the rachni first before they launched into a war against the other races. I don't think you're making sense there... but past experience tells me not to get into it with you over it... so, yeah, if you say so; but I disagree. |
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Oct 31, 2016 4:19:00 GMT
But the Rachni are controlled by the Queen. The nature of indoctrination is they are not fully aware of it till someone points it out. The hive mind of Rachni would mean once the queen is gone then the rest of the hive soon follows. It would only make sense if there was a civil war among the rachni first before they launched into a war against the other races. I don't think you're making sense there... but past experience tells me not to get into it with you over it... so, yeah, if you say so; but I disagree. The Queen mentions that a tone from space hushed one voice after another. Forcing it to resonate with it's own sour yellow note. Indoctrination wouldn't hush a voice. It also wouldn't cause it to resonate with the same song. That is more indicative of someone being converted into a husk. As they are literally killed and then their minds are completely controlled by the Reaper signal sent out by the Reapers. Because the point of indoctrination is to subtlety alter how you perceive things. And the Queen's description is far more direct. Even within the confines of ME 1 it simply doesn't match everything said and told about how indoctrination works. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2016 11:06:30 GMT
I don't think you're making sense there... but past experience tells me not to get into it with you over it... so, yeah, if you say so; but I disagree. The Queen mentions that a tone from space hushed one voice after another. Forcing it to resonate with it's own sour yellow note. Indoctrination wouldn't hush a voice. It also wouldn't cause it to resonate with the same song. That is more indicative of someone being converted into a husk. As they are literally killed and then their minds are completely controlled by the Reaper signal sent out by the Reapers. Because the point of indoctrination is to subtlety alter how you perceive things. And the Queen's description is far more direct. Even within the confines of ME 1 it simply doesn't match everything said and told about how indoctrination works. Indoctrination does hush a voice - the "voice of conscience" of the individual being indoctrinated. According to Rana Thanoptis - "You start to do things and you don't know why." It also does cause the individual to "resonate with the song of the Reaper who is doing the indoctrination" As Benezia say: "My mind is filled with his light." She also goes ont to say "It is a terror to be trapped in your mind, to beat upon the glass as your hands torture and murder." A "hive mind" being taken over by indoctrination could easily be described as a process by which "a tone from space (i.e. Sovereign's signal) hushed one voice after another forcing them to resonate with it's own sour yellow note." |
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Nov 2, 2016 14:31:20 GMT
The Queen mentions that a tone from space hushed one voice after another. Forcing it to resonate with it's own sour yellow note. Indoctrination wouldn't hush a voice. It also wouldn't cause it to resonate with the same song. That is more indicative of someone being converted into a husk. As they are literally killed and then their minds are completely controlled by the Reaper signal sent out by the Reapers. Because the point of indoctrination is to subtlety alter how you perceive things. And the Queen's description is far more direct. Even within the confines of ME 1 it simply doesn't match everything said and told about how indoctrination works. Indoctrination does hush a voice - the "voice of conscience" of the individual being indoctrinated. According to Rana Thanoptis - "You start to do things and you don't know why." It also does cause the individual to "resonate with the song of the Reaper who is doing the indoctrination" As Benezia say: "My mind is filled with his light." She also goes ont to say "It is a terror to be trapped in your mind, to beat upon the glass as your hands torture and murder." A "hive mind" being taken over by indoctrination could easily be described as a process by which "a tone from space (i.e. Sovereign's signal) hushed one voice after another forcing them to resonate with it's own sour yellow note." Save that description still doesn't fit with Saren or Liara's mother. Her entire set up was only allowed in the script because of the great mental powers she had. The experiments of Rana Thanoptis are of a non Reaper using Reaper indoctrination to see how it works. Or other worse more blunt force use of it. That is why it breaks the mind rather then what happened to Saren or Matriarch. Or even later Rana Thanoptis in ME 3. On top of that cause and effect. The Queen on Noveria mentions the voices from space but nothing about the Rachni War says the Rachni were pushing towards the Citadel. Which would line up with Sovereign's over all goal. There was also no cybernetic enhancements applied to them. Which even if you take the route that Indoctrination will eventually break the subject's brain. Is kind of how they get around that. Taking the whole series into account it sounds a lot more like Leviathan because their version is to mentally dominate the target silencing their mind completely and over riding it with their own. |
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Post by hipi07 on Nov 18, 2016 4:13:02 GMT
Sovereign was surely testing the strength and unity of the galaxy by inciting the Rachni to war. I would also believe that he tried using them to gain access to the Citadel and perhaps unlock the relay to dark space to allow the rest of the Reapers through, same exact way he did with the Geth, which in the end resulted easier as they viewed him as a god.
Regardless if this proxy war fulfilled it's main objective, it still weakened the galaxy although it allowed for time for others species to come into play and, above all, allow Humanity and Krogan to make their mark and show their power. Had Harbinger also set loose the Collectors at the same time surely the relay would have been open at the time of the Rachni Wars.
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But my point still stands 
