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Post by fenris on Oct 26, 2016 17:17:12 GMT
So I'm in the middle of my ME1 replay, and just encountered the Rachni queen. She was explaining how the Reapers made them go to war, when all of a sudden I couldn't understand WHY that happened... Why would the Reapers use the Rachni? What was the point? They hardly needed to weaken the other races befor invading... so why?
Maybe it's clear to all but me?
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Post by CrutchCricket on Oct 26, 2016 17:38:23 GMT
I could be wrong but that may have been retconned to Leviathans for... reasons.
Honestly, it's no less confusing either way.
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Post by sageoflife on Oct 26, 2016 17:41:13 GMT
Sovereign didn't want to be discovered because it would likely lead to what happened at the Battle of the Citadel, so he used the rachni the same way he used the geth.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 26, 2016 17:58:18 GMT
I could be wrong but that may have been retconned to Leviathans for... reasons. Honestly, it's no less confusing either way. Leviathan didn't really change anything. The rachni data turns out to be irrelevant.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2016 18:33:01 GMT
Why not? It's nice to test the enemy out, and carry a mission out with as few casualties as possible. The Reapers seem to be attracted to the hive minds for manipulation, so rachni is an organic version of geth. I dunno, I never really thought it was odd.
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Post by Ahriman on Oct 26, 2016 20:37:34 GMT
So I'm in the middle of my ME1 replay, and just encountered the Rachni queen. She was explaining how the Reapers made them go to war, when all of a sudden I couldn't understand WHY that happened... Why would the Reapers use the Rachni? What was the point? They hardly needed to weaken the other races befor invading... so why? Maybe it's clear to all but me? Same reason geth went to war. Sovy was solving his problems with others' hands. Because Harby was too greedy to give him some help from collectors.
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Post by ArabianIGoggles on Oct 27, 2016 0:18:07 GMT
Why not? It's nice to test the enemy out, and carry a mission out with as few casualties as possible. The Reapers seem to be attracted to the hive minds for manipulation, so rachni is an organic version of geth. I dunno, I never really thought it was odd. The reapers were unable to indoctrinate rachni queens. It's implied that the leviathans may have caused that war.
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Post by sageoflife on Oct 27, 2016 0:25:52 GMT
Why not? It's nice to test the enemy out, and carry a mission out with as few casualties as possible. The Reapers seem to be attracted to the hive minds for manipulation, so rachni is an organic version of geth. I dunno, I never really thought it was odd. The reapers were unable to indoctrinate rachni queens. It's implied that the leviathans may have caused that war. Or they did the same thing they did with the queen from Noveria. Imprison them on rachni controlled worlds and indoctrinate the children. Since rachni have such a different way of communicating, the Council wouldn't have realized that the queens weren't willing participants, and the krogan would hardly have been inclined to find out otherwise.
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Post by dmc1001 on Oct 27, 2016 1:37:50 GMT
So I'm in the middle of my ME1 replay, and just encountered the Rachni queen. She was explaining how the Reapers made them go to war, when all of a sudden I couldn't understand WHY that happened... Why would the Reapers use the Rachni? What was the point? They hardly needed to weaken the other races befor invading... so why? Maybe it's clear to all but me? To weaken the races. If the rachni make them weak they're much less prepared to face the Reapers when they come.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2016 2:03:17 GMT
Why not? It's nice to test the enemy out, and carry a mission out with as few casualties as possible. The Reapers seem to be attracted to the hive minds for manipulation, so rachni is an organic version of geth. I dunno, I never really thought it was odd. The reapers were unable to indoctrinate rachni queens. It's implied that the leviathans may have caused that war. I don't have Leviathan, so what I see is what I get 😀
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Post by fenris on Oct 27, 2016 5:12:55 GMT
So I'm in the middle of my ME1 replay, and just encountered the Rachni queen. She was explaining how the Reapers made them go to war, when all of a sudden I couldn't understand WHY that happened... Why would the Reapers use the Rachni? What was the point? They hardly needed to weaken the other races befor invading... so why? Maybe it's clear to all but me? To weaken the races. If the rachni make them weak they're much less prepared to face the Reapers when they come. But if they wanted to weaken the races, why wait so long between the war and the invasion?
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Post by sageoflife on Oct 27, 2016 5:27:09 GMT
To weaken the races. If the rachni make them weak they're much less prepared to face the Reapers when they come. But if they wanted to weaken the races, why wait so long between the war and the invasion? Because the krogan put a stop to the war before Sovereign could unlock the relay. The gap is because it took him that long to find another tool that could be used to weaken and distract the races of the galaxy while he moved to undo the protheans' sabotage.
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Post by Natashina on Oct 27, 2016 6:55:21 GMT
Well, I do remember Javik saying that his people breed the rachni to the point they rebelled. The Reapers were probably aware of their presence but the rachni might not have achieved space flight prior at that point. They had about 50,000 years to get that going.
When the queen talks about the machines and the "sour yellow note," I always thought it was Sovereign that started the war. Throwing the spacefaring races into chaos before the arrival of the Reaper fleet would have come in handy. Sovereign might have started the war to use the Rachni to take control of the Citadel, or at least distract the galaxy while he started quietly indoctrinating people.
That didn't work so well, since Sovy couldn't have seen the uplift of the Krogan happening. It's just my theory anyway.
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Post by Ahriman on Oct 27, 2016 9:05:28 GMT
So I'm in the middle of my ME1 replay, and just encountered the Rachni queen. She was explaining how the Reapers made them go to war, when all of a sudden I couldn't understand WHY that happened... Why would the Reapers use the Rachni? What was the point? They hardly needed to weaken the other races befor invading... so why? Maybe it's clear to all but me? To weaken the races. If the rachni make them weak they're much less prepared to face the Reapers when they come. With Reaper's power level it's irrelevant. Sovy just couldn't get to Citadel alone.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2016 10:37:37 GMT
I could be wrong but that may have been retconned to Leviathans for... reasons. Honestly, it's no less confusing either way. Leviathan didn't really change anything. The rachni data turns out to be irrelevant. except that it revealed a two sided conflict that had been going on for millenia. Leviathan in a way lost - hence why they're in hiding. Why they feel the need to use globes to observe the universe from their hiding places.
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Post by Vortex13 on Oct 27, 2016 13:01:53 GMT
I personally felt that it was the Leviathans that were behind the Rachni Wars instead of the Reapers. As has been said earlier, the Rachni Queens are immune to the effects of indoctrination, and the Reapers don't particularly care for things they can't control, much less want to rely on them for shock troops. The Leviathans on the other hand are much more adept, albeit more narrow, in their abilities to control the minds of others. Even resident Space Jesus Shepard was susceptible to their influence so I think it would be more likely that they were the ones to push the Rachni into war with the Council races.
As to why, well maybe they assumed that the reliance on a hive minded biological species wouldn't draw the Reapers attention as much as a synthetic uprising, and would allow them to seize control of the Citadel and possibly turn off the Catalyst before the cycle's invasion phase began.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2016 17:16:27 GMT
The tone (note the Rachni queen does use a singular form here) from space that caused the Rachni to sing with it's own sour yellow note can only be Sovereign and Sovereign alone - since the Rachni Wars occurred within the current cycle. You haven't yet reached the point in ME1 where Vigil explains that Sovereign is essentially a solitary Reaper cut off from being able to call in the other Reapers because the keepers are not responding to it's commands to initiate the harvest. Vigil also indicates that Sovereign may have tried to enlist several species as allies to help try to take the Citadel (just like it ultimately used the geth). Vigil clearly says that Sovereign would not have been able to just take the Citadel alone because it was a lone Reaper cut off from the others and would, if it attacked, be facing all the species by itself and "even a Reaper could not survive such odds." (Of course, the player has to undertake to "investigate" things with Vigil in order to hear all of this description.) How Sovereign went about causing the Rachni to "sing with it's own sour yellow note" is not described in the game.
The Rachni (along with several other of the current species) were in the process of being uplifted by Protheans. Javik (if you have the DLC) talks about this several times during ME3. He indicates also that they abandoned the uplifts because they hoped the Reapers would leave these "primitive" species alone to carry one into the next cycle. It is clear that part of the Prothean strategy was to find ways to pass knowledge along into the next cycle... in case the Protheans themselves did not survive. Ensuring that as many species as possible (at various different stages of uplift) are left alone by the Reapers is one way to make it likely that things like the plans for the Crucible do get found and perhaps used by the subsequent cycle to eventually defeat the Reapers.
However, Javik does indicate that the Rachni uplift was primarily to use them as weapons and it did result in the Protheans engaging in a war against the Rachni in which the Rachni were thought by the Protheans to have been exterminated. Apparently, the rachni went into hiding at that point and, therefore, avoided actual extermination. Their hiding was disturbed sometime before 186 CE (per ME3 codex - "Over 2,000 years ago, explorers foolishly opened a mass relay to a previously unknown system and encountere something never seen before or since: a species of spacefaring insects guided by a hive-mind intelligence. Unfortunately, the rachni were not peaceful, and the galaxy was plunged into a series of conflicts known as the Rachni Wars. Attempts to negotiated were futile, as it was impossible to make contact with the hive queens that guided the race from beneath the surface of their toxic homeworld." - note the use of the plural here)
If the Rachni Queen is killed on Noveria, the Breeder Queen that appears in ME3 describes herself as a "monster." If she is released, she proves herself to be "untrustworthy" (word used in the Wiki) and the player's War Assets are affected in a negative way. Although she says things in order to cause Shepared to release her, she either has been indoctrinated or has been engineered in other ways to be loyal to the Reapers. The Rachni Queen from Noveria is resistant to being indoctrinated... but I'm not convinced that is actually an indication that all Rachni queens are immune to indoctrination. If the queens themselves were all immune to indoctrination, it must then be that the hidden queens were not in control of the rachni soldiers (who had been "forced to sing with its own sour yellow note" by Sovereign)
One irony about the Rachni being used by Sovereign to try to take the Citadel in 1 CE (per Wiki)... means that the harvest for that current cycle was meant to begin BEFORE humans had achieved space flight. Had the Krogan not been uplifted and defeated the Rachni, humans would have likely been left alone to survive into the subsequent cycle. They just never would have met the Asari, Turians, or Salarians since those species would have been the ones to have been harvested.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 29, 2016 16:30:06 GMT
The tone (note the Rachni queen does use a singular form here) from space that caused the Rachni to sing with it's own sour yellow note can only be Sovereign and Sovereign alone - since the Rachni Wars occurred within the current cycle. You haven't yet reached the point in ME1 where Vigil explains that Sovereign is essentially a solitary Reaper cut off from being able to call in the other Reapers because the keepers are not responding to it's commands to initiate the harvest. Vigil also indicates that Sovereign may have tried to enlist several species as allies to help try to take the Citadel (just like it ultimately used the geth). Vigil clearly says that Sovereign would not have been able to just take the Citadel alone because it was a lone Reaper cut off from the others and would, if it attacked, be facing all the species by itself and "even a Reaper could not survive those odds." (Of course, the player has to undertake to "investigate" things with Vigil in order to hear all of this description.) How Sovereign went about causing the Rachni to "sing with it's own sour yellow note" is not described in the game. Also in ME2, the message the rachni queen sends to Shepard via the courier strongly impliesit was in fact Sovereign who sicced teh rachni on the COuncil "We hide. We burrow. We build. But we know you seek those who soured the songs of our mothers. When the time comes, our voice will join with yours, and our crescendo will burn the darkness clean."
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2016 16:55:41 GMT
The tone (note the Rachni queen does use a singular form here) from space that caused the Rachni to sing with it's own sour yellow note can only be Sovereign and Sovereign alone - since the Rachni Wars occurred within the current cycle. You haven't yet reached the point in ME1 where Vigil explains that Sovereign is essentially a solitary Reaper cut off from being able to call in the other Reapers because the keepers are not responding to it's commands to initiate the harvest. Vigil also indicates that Sovereign may have tried to enlist several species as allies to help try to take the Citadel (just like it ultimately used the geth). Vigil clearly says that Sovereign would not have been able to just take the Citadel alone because it was a lone Reaper cut off from the others and would, if it attacked, be facing all the species by itself and "even a Reaper could not survive those odds." (Of course, the player has to undertake to "investigate" things with Vigil in order to hear all of this description.) How Sovereign went about causing the Rachni to "sing with it's own sour yellow note" is not described in the game. Also in ME2, the message the rachni queen sends to Shepard via the courier strongly impliesit was in fact Sovereign who sicced teh rachni on the COuncil "We hide. We burrow. We build. But we know you seek those who soured the songs of our mothers. When the time comes, our voice will join with yours, and our crescendo will burn the darkness clean." Although, somewhat confusingly, this reference contains a plural ("those who soured") and, of course, in ME2, we know that Shepard is no longer seeking to bring down just Sovereign (been there, already did that)... but rather he/she is seeking out a way to stop the rest of the Reapers. However, given the time frame given for the Rachni Wars (i.e. long after the Prothean extinction and after the reapers, except Sovereign, had retreated to dark space), I tend to consider/dismiss that plural a bit of an "error" in the lore. However, it is possible that it may be an indication that more than one Vanguard Reaper was left behind inside the galaxy. However, that then begs the question as to why Sovereign did not just assemble those other vanguard reapers together and attack the Citadel directly without trying to elicit any other species as allies (i.e. the rachni or, later, Saren and the geth). (Pure speculation... Might it mean that the Krogan or that the Rachni queens had successfully killed off the other vanguard Reapers except for Sovereign and that history was just never revealed to us?)
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Post by scifiguy53425 on Oct 29, 2016 16:58:15 GMT
The Rachni Queen lies. It's all part of their plan take over the galaxy!
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Oct 29, 2016 17:00:18 GMT
The question is when did the Reapers try to manipulate the Rachnni. The queen was found on a ship floating in space since the end of the Rachni War.
How long is the gestation period of a queen?
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Post by sageoflife on Oct 29, 2016 17:01:33 GMT
The queen's egg was in cryostasis.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2016 17:02:55 GMT
The question is when did the Reapers try to manipulate the Rachnni. The queen was found on a ship floating in space since the end of the Rachni War. How long is the gestation period of a queen? ... or perhaps the cold in space effectively froze and preserved the egg that was hatched to become the Rachni Queen we meet on Noveria? The gestation of the eggs doesn't seem to be that long - a single queen can produce "a colony within weeks" (per ME1 dialogue... forget right now though who actually said it - Tartokovsky??)... and we do freeze sperm and eggs all the time for use later IRL. The Noveria Queen's dialogue indicates that, as an egg, she was listening to the Rachni Wars take place. A "tone from space" forcing the rachni to "sing with it's own yellow note" meaning Sovereign indoctrinating them... and then hearing her "mother cry in her dreams" as her mother is killed during the Rachni Wars, and then the sky falling silent as the Rachni become extinct. It seems obvious to me that her egg was laid by her mother while she was on a ship fighting during the Rachni Wars... and because the ship became "derelict" after she and the others aboard it were killed, the environment became cold enough that the egg was frozen before it hatched and remained drifting in space until discovered by the Binary Helix scientists... who brought it to Noveria, warmed it up, and hatched it. The one thing that does not make sense to me about the Rachni Queen is that she is, somehow, portrayed as being both peaceful and sane despite not having grown up with her mother singing to her... unless the mother's singing really only matters during the early stages of the egg development. (More pure speculation - I know this might be opening up a can of worms, but the thought just crossed my mind that perhaps being frozen is one thing that makes an organic brain resistant to indoctrination... the Noveria Queen is resistant and her age was frozen and Shepard was frozen as well... of course, such a thing would discount the indoctrination theory...)
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Oct 29, 2016 18:02:57 GMT
The question is when did the Reapers try to manipulate the Rachnni. The queen was found on a ship floating in space since the end of the Rachni War. How long is the gestation period of a queen? ... or perhaps the cold in space effectively froze and preserved the egg that was hatched to become the Rachni Queen we meet on Noveria? The gestation of the eggs doesn't seem to be that long - a single queen can produce "a colony within weeks" (per ME1 dialogue... forget right now though who actually said it - Tartokovsky??)... and we do freeze sperm and eggs all the time for use later IRL. The Noveria Queen's dialogue indicates that, as an egg, she was listening to the Rachni Wars take place. A "tone from space" forcing the rachni to "sing with it's own yellow note" meaning Sovereign indoctrinating them... and then hearing her "mother cry in her dreams" as her mother is killed during the Rachni Wars, and then the sky falling silent as the Rachni become extinct. It seems obvious to me that her egg was laid by her mother while she was on a ship fighting during the Rachni Wars... and because the ship became "derelict" after she and the others aboard it were killed, the environment became cold enough that the egg was frozen before it hatched and remained drifting in space until discovered by the Binary Helix scientists... who brought it to Noveria, warmed it up, and hatched it. The one thing that does not make sense to me about the Rachni Queen is that she is, somehow, portrayed as being both peaceful and sane despite not having grown up with her mother singing to her... unless the mother's singing really only matters during the early stages of the egg development. (More pure speculation - I know this might be opening up a can of worms, but the thought just crossed my mind that perhaps being frozen is one thing that makes an organic brain resistant to indoctrination... the Noveria Queen is resistant and her age was frozen and Shepard was frozen as well... of course, such a thing would discount the indoctrination theory...) It sounds to me like the sour note only came during the end of the Rachnni War. Which means Sovereign didn't start the war but he saw how effective the Rachnni were and attempted to indotrinate a few to be taken to some unknown part of the galaxy to breed as an opening salvo in the harvest.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2016 18:08:51 GMT
... or perhaps the cold in space effectively froze and preserved the egg that was hatched to become the Rachni Queen we meet on Noveria? The gestation of the eggs doesn't seem to be that long - a single queen can produce "a colony within weeks" (per ME1 dialogue... forget right now though who actually said it - Tartokovsky??)... and we do freeze sperm and eggs all the time for use later IRL. The Noveria Queen's dialogue indicates that, as an egg, she was listening to the Rachni Wars take place. A "tone from space" forcing the rachni to "sing with it's own yellow note" meaning Sovereign indoctrinating them... and then hearing her "mother cry in her dreams" as her mother is killed during the Rachni Wars, and then the sky falling silent as the Rachni become extinct. It seems obvious to me that her egg was laid by her mother while she was on a ship fighting during the Rachni Wars... and because the ship became "derelict" after she and the others aboard it were killed, the environment became cold enough that the egg was frozen before it hatched and remained drifting in space until discovered by the Binary Helix scientists... who brought it to Noveria, warmed it up, and hatched it. The one thing that does not make sense to me about the Rachni Queen is that she is, somehow, portrayed as being both peaceful and sane despite not having grown up with her mother singing to her... unless the mother's singing really only matters during the early stages of the egg development. (More pure speculation - I know this might be opening up a can of worms, but the thought just crossed my mind that perhaps being frozen is one thing that makes an organic brain resistant to indoctrination... the Noveria Queen is resistant and her age was frozen and Shepard was frozen as well... of course, such a thing would discount the indoctrination theory...) It sounds to me like the sour note only came during the end of the Rachnni War. Which means Sovereign didn't start the war but he saw how effective the Rachnni were and attempted to indotrinate a few to be taken to some unknown part of the galaxy to breed as an opening salvo in the harvest. I see where you're heading with this, but my take is that the Queen's mother relayed the story about the "tone from space" like a mother telling a child born during a war about how that war started. I really do believe that Sovereign is the one who issued that tone as one of his earlier attempt to raise allies to storm the Citadel (as alluded to by Vigil on Ilos). The Queen's egg itself may have been laid at any time though... very near the beginning of the war would be possible since we don't know when the ship became derelict. The Queen's egg may have ridden out the entire centuries of the war and the millennia afterwards frozen aboard that ship. Also, keep in mind that the entire population is not indoctrinated at once... even on Earth where there are signals coming from not just a single reaper but hoards of them. As it's rachni minions fell in battle, sovereign would have had a need to indoctrinate more to replenish his troops... the "tone" would then be an ongoing thing right throughout the war from beginning to end. I don't see anything in the dialogue that precludes Sovereign's influence being what provoked the Rachni to behave violently against those "explorers" who opened the relay an intruded on their space. Of course, it can also be interpreted that the rachni were just being territorial (which is how Benezia describes them). This is really just another example of how, in this game, Bioware uses little suggestions in multiple directions that allow for multiple and often opposing interpretations to be made by different players. Rather than AC's slogan "Nothing is true. Everything is permitted." I'd say, it goes "Nothing is concrete. Anything remains possible."
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