dmc1001
N7
Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
Prime Posts: 77
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 8, 2021 18:49:05 GMT
Meh honestly just it is kind of weird the completley blackening of Cerberus in ME 3 removing all of their nuance and then sweeping aside all the nonsense the Alliance and Council was doing in ME 2 as well is...very annoying. Except this is entirely consistent with ME1, right down to Cerberus creating husks in ME1 while having husk/human hybrids in ME3. It's only a "blackening" if you ignore Hades' Dog in ME1. Otherwise, the shiny veneer we saw in ME2 was simply stripped away and we see what we saw at the beginning. As I see it, it wasn't just Shepard who was made to believe Cerberus wasn't as bad as reported. It was also players. Given that a lot of people began with ME2 it was easy to sweep the other stuff under the rug. If you started with ME1, the Cerberus in ME2 was jarring and the one in ME3 made complete sense.
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Post by AnDromedary on Aug 8, 2021 18:53:41 GMT
Technically, Shepard does something like this in ME2. If you have an imported Shepard, in your third conversation with Miranda, you can ask her about the horrible experiments you have seen them perform in ME1. She will kinda brush it off, saying that they were trying to generate cheap shock troops as they thought they needed to defend humanity. IIRC, she only mentions the thorian creepers and the rachni though, not the husks (sorry, I haven't been able to find a video of it so I am not 100% sure on this).
It's not very satisfying IMO, but there is something like this in the game at least.
I'm just starting an ME2 run so I'll pay attention. The Thorian creepers and rachni are different, to me. Creepers were literally plants grown by the Thorian that just had a vaguely human appearance. Rachni were meant to be part of a breeding program. The latter is less savory but not the worst. There's no indication that the queen was actually harmed. Technically, those were ExoGeni and Binary Helix though it's pretty clear they're all connected. Husks, though, are very hard to explain. That meant Reaper tech was already in the hands of Cerberus - which we kind of knew from some of the ME comics. Combine that with Vigil mentioning sleeper agents existing in the Prothean Empire and you don't have anything that looks good where Cerberus is concerned. The stuff with husks is unconscionable. Way worse than injecting Toombs with thresher maw venom. Basically, ME2 throws out ME1 entirely since its original is entirely different. Unless there were another Cerberus or Cerberus attached itself to Systems Alliance black ops. Everything I look for only deals with ME2 and ME3 and I don't recall if there was any attempt to reconcile the vastly different origins. As for Miranda, it's not inconsistent with TIM surrounding Shepard with people who don't really know what's going on. Jack was a wildcard in that respect but she was also just an angry child screaming at the world. Harder to take in what she says as truth when you've got Miranda as a True Believer. She's not handwaving away husks because she literally doesn't know about Cerberus creating them out of human settlements. And of course anything that makes Cerberus really look bad is a rogue operation. Cerberus falls under one of those "road to Hell" type of organizations. Yea, I agree that Cerberus was largely retconned after ME1. There is a 4-part comic which kinda tries to explain the origins of it, where TIM (before he became TIM) leads some sort of ragtag group of soldiers during the turian occupation of Shanxi in the first contact war. This team is loosely affiliated with the remaining Alliance presence on Shanxi and out of that, they basically form Cerberus then (or something like that, it's been ages since I read it).
But yeah, whichever way you slice it, it never quite fit together.
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dmc1001
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Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
Prime Posts: 77
Posts: 9,942 Likes: 17,687
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 8, 2021 19:09:51 GMT
Yea, I agree that Cerberus was largely retconned after ME1. There is a 4-part comic which kinda tries to explain the origins of it, where TIM (before he became TIM) leads some sort of ragtag group of soldiers during the turian occupation of Shanxi in the first contact war. This team is loosely affiliated with the remaining Alliance presence on Shanxi and out of that, they basically form Cerberus then (or something like that, it's been ages since I read it). I never read it, but I am aware of it. Speaking of Shanxi, TIM was first exposed to Reaper tech there. He even used, from what I've been able to find out, Reaper tech-based implants. How anyone can claim he wasn't a sleeper agent of some sort I can't understand. The only reason TIM likely wasn't activated in ME2 was because the Reapers weren't around. Somewhere between ME2 and ME3 he fell fully under the influence of the remains of the human Reaper. So while he could believe he was working for humanity he was actually doing the bidding of the Reapers. He turned the organic races against one another. Also, those human/husk troops did not come overnight. I'd be willing to bet they'd been in development ever since ME1. We've gone off track. Suffice it to say that I think TIM had been at least partially indoctrinated since Shanxi. If you look at it that way then a lot of things make sense. Edit: As I pointed out earlier, Vigil outright said there were indoctrinated sleeper agents all throughout the Prothean Empire. Once activated, they turned on them and did what the Reapers wanted.
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Post by Phantom on Aug 8, 2021 19:58:27 GMT
Yea, I agree that Cerberus was largely retconned after ME1. There is a 4-part comic which kinda tries to explain the origins of it, where TIM (before he became TIM) leads some sort of ragtag group of soldiers during the turian occupation of Shanxi in the first contact war. This team is loosely affiliated with the remaining Alliance presence on Shanxi and out of that, they basically form Cerberus then (or something like that, it's been ages since I read it). I never read it, but I am aware of it. Speaking of Shanxi, TIM was first exposed to Reaper tech there. He even used, from what I've been able to find out, Reaper tech-based implants. How anyone can claim he wasn't a sleeper agent of some sort I can't understand. The only reason TIM likely wasn't activated in ME2 was because the Reapers weren't around. Somewhere between ME2 and ME3 he fell fully under the influence of the remains of the human Reaper. So while he could believe he was working for humanity he was actually doing the bidding of the Reapers. He turned the organic races against one another. Also, those human/husk troops did not come overnight. I'd be willing to bet they'd been in development ever since ME1. We've gone off track. Suffice it to say that I think TIM had been at least partially indoctrinated since Shanxi. If you look at it that way then a lot of things make sense. Edit: As I pointed out earlier, Vigil outright said there were indoctrinated sleeper agents all throughout the Prothean Empire. Once activated, they turned on them and did what the Reapers wanted. but we want to go off track. it is more fun that way.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 8, 2021 21:28:36 GMT
I think what Shepard ought to have done was go through the list of all the evils of Cerberus with Miranda and Jacob. Wasn't Cerberus turning people into husks in ME3? Seems like that wasn't a new idea. Technically, Shepard does something like this in ME2. If you have an imported Shepard, in your third conversation with Miranda, you can ask her about the horrible experiments you have seen them perform in ME1. She will kinda brush it off, saying that they were trying to generate cheap shock troops as they thought they needed to defend humanity. IIRC, she only mentions the thorian creepers and the rachni though, not the husks (sorry, I haven't been able to find a video of it so I am not 100% sure on this).
It's not very satisfying IMO, but there is something like this in the game at least.
Miranda does mention husks, though she ignores their origins of formerly being human colonists Cerberus turned into husks. Her line is “The husks were already dead, the Thorian Creepers were mindless, and the Rachni were abandoned once we realized their intelligence.”
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Post by colfoley on Aug 8, 2021 22:10:14 GMT
Meh honestly just it is kind of weird the completley blackening of Cerberus in ME 3 removing all of their nuance and then sweeping aside all the nonsense the Alliance and Council was doing in ME 2 as well is...very annoying. Except this is entirely consistent with ME1, right down to Cerberus creating husks in ME1 while having husk/human hybrids in ME3. It's only a "blackening" if you ignore Hades' Dog in ME1. Otherwise, the shiny veneer we saw in ME2 was simply stripped away and we see what we saw at the beginning. As I see it, it wasn't just Shepard who was made to believe Cerberus wasn't as bad as reported. It was also players. Given that a lot of people began with ME2 it was easy to sweep the other stuff under the rug. If you started with ME1, the Cerberus in ME2 was jarring and the one in ME3 made complete sense. The trouble is that there was a definite lightening and added nuance of Cerberus between ME 1 and ME2. This is a fairly common literary/ fictional trope when you have X organization, group, or individual that is portrayed as super evil and monotone and then they get more story content devoted to them in an attempt to make them more sympatheic or turn them into actually better guys. This does not always exist to make them entirely not evil, see Voldemort, but it serves to deepen their portrayal and make it two or three dimensional. The same thing also happened with the Alliance and Council which as I noted they made a lot of tactical mistakes and really pushed the bounds of law and liberty in the intervening years between ME 1 and ME 2 which then served to 'darken' them. So, to recap, they lightened Cerberus, but darkened the Council to make both organizations meet in the middle and then make Cerberus a lot more palletable to the player. This effect was, pretty successful as ME 2 Cerberus is a fascinating in depth organization with layers. But then in ME 3 they decided to turn this borderline 3 dimensional organization and turn it back into a one dimensional organization while simultaneously flat out ignoring all the crimes the Council/ Alliance commited in ME 2. Its not brought up, not as a line of dialogue, not as a subplot...just plain ignored. This is annoyingly bad writing because it essentially white washes the 'good guys' while making the bad guys into complete and utter Space Fascists. Fortunatley we got more nuance with the Quarian and Geth conflict...
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Post by Son of Dorn on Aug 9, 2021 0:04:03 GMT
Except this is entirely consistent with ME1, right down to Cerberus creating husks in ME1 while having husk/human hybrids in ME3. It's only a "blackening" if you ignore Hades' Dog in ME1. Otherwise, the shiny veneer we saw in ME2 was simply stripped away and we see what we saw at the beginning. As I see it, it wasn't just Shepard who was made to believe Cerberus wasn't as bad as reported. It was also players. Given that a lot of people began with ME2 it was easy to sweep the other stuff under the rug. If you started with ME1, the Cerberus in ME2 was jarring and the one in ME3 made complete sense. The trouble is that there was a definite lightening and added nuance of Cerberus between ME 1 and ME2. This is a fairly common literary/ fictional trope when you have X organization, group, or individual that is portrayed as super evil and monotone and then they get more story content devoted to them in an attempt to make them more sympatheic or turn them into actually better guys. This does not always exist to make them entirely not evil, see Voldemort, but it serves to deepen their portrayal and make it two or three dimensional. The same thing also happened with the Alliance and Council which as I noted they made a lot of tactical mistakes and really pushed the bounds of law and liberty in the intervening years between ME 1 and ME 2 which then served to 'darken' them. So, to recap, they lightened Cerberus, but darkened the Council to make both organizations meet in the middle and then make Cerberus a lot more palletable to the player. This effect was, pretty successful as ME 2 Cerberus is a fascinating in depth organization with layers. But then in ME 3 they decided to turn this borderline 3 dimensional organization and turn it back into a one dimensional organization while simultaneously flat out ignoring all the crimes the Council/ Alliance commited in ME 2. Its not brought up, not as a line of dialogue, not as a subplot...just plain ignored. This is annoyingly bad writing because it essentially white washes the 'good guys' while making the bad guys into complete and utter Space Fascists. Fortunatley we got more nuance with the Quarian and Geth conflict... Would have been better if Cerberus had remained as they were in ME2 and have them as a possible recruited fraction in 3, instead of the cartoon villains that Mac turned them into.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 9, 2021 0:06:20 GMT
The trouble is that there was a definite lightening and added nuance of Cerberus between ME 1 and ME2. This is a fairly common literary/ fictional trope when you have X organization, group, or individual that is portrayed as super evil and monotone and then they get more story content devoted to them in an attempt to make them more sympatheic or turn them into actually better guys. This does not always exist to make them entirely not evil, see Voldemort, but it serves to deepen their portrayal and make it two or three dimensional. The same thing also happened with the Alliance and Council which as I noted they made a lot of tactical mistakes and really pushed the bounds of law and liberty in the intervening years between ME 1 and ME 2 which then served to 'darken' them. So, to recap, they lightened Cerberus, but darkened the Council to make both organizations meet in the middle and then make Cerberus a lot more palletable to the player. This effect was, pretty successful as ME 2 Cerberus is a fascinating in depth organization with layers. But then in ME 3 they decided to turn this borderline 3 dimensional organization and turn it back into a one dimensional organization while simultaneously flat out ignoring all the crimes the Council/ Alliance commited in ME 2. Its not brought up, not as a line of dialogue, not as a subplot...just plain ignored. This is annoyingly bad writing because it essentially white washes the 'good guys' while making the bad guys into complete and utter Space Fascists. Fortunatley we got more nuance with the Quarian and Geth conflict... Would have been better if Cerberus had remained as they were in ME2 and have them as a possible recruited fraction in 3, instead of the cartoon villains that Mac turned them into. Oh yeah a 'Cerberus redemption arc' is high on my list of things I would've done with ME 3. Also I think I would've also maybe used their name to the advantage and we would've discovered in 3 that it was a lot more then just TIM running the operation and they had 2 other directors.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Aug 9, 2021 0:12:36 GMT
Would have been better if Cerberus had remained as they were in ME2 and have them as a possible recruited fraction in 3, instead of the cartoon villains that Mac turned them into. Oh yeah a 'Cerberus redemption arc' is high on my list of things I would've done with ME 3. Also I think I would've also maybe used their name to the advantage and we would've discovered in 3 that it was a lot more then just TIM running the operation and they had 2 other directors. They really should have been written as a more grey fraction from the get go.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 9, 2021 0:17:27 GMT
Oh yeah a 'Cerberus redemption arc' is high on my list of things I would've done with ME 3. Also I think I would've also maybe used their name to the advantage and we would've discovered in 3 that it was a lot more then just TIM running the operation and they had 2 other directors. They really should have been written as a more grey fraction from the get go. I can't really blame them for that since it was obvious they didn't plan out the trilogy like JMS did with Babylon 5 and they were doing a lot of adaptive storytelling...which would've worked had Mac Walters actually followed through with the plan instead of completley going off on his own... But it was fairly obvious that Cerberus was supposed to be just a bunch of mooks you get to kill but maybe someone liked them, maybe they were like 'hmm we have this one dimensional organization what if we give them more screen time'...or perhaps they just wanted to be edgy...but once they made that decision they should've stuck to it. And weirdly to as much as I complain about Cerberus's Portryal in 3 a lot of it does come down to a lot of technicalities. Technically the Illusive Man is one note now...but Martin Sheen still does an amazing job voicing him...technically it seems improbable they should have this much military force, but oh wait they did have shipyards in 2 so technically maybe they did. Its weird. A lot I would have done differently but a few things still work.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Aug 9, 2021 0:24:53 GMT
They really should have been written as a more grey fraction from the get go. I can't really blame them for that since it was obvious they didn't plan out the trilogy like JMS did with Babylon 5 and they were doing a lot of adaptive storytelling...which would've worked had Mac Walters actually followed through with the plan instead of completley going off on his own... But it was fairly obvious that Cerberus was supposed to be just a bunch of mooks you get to kill but maybe someone liked them, maybe they were like 'hmm we have this one dimensional organization what if we give them more screen time'...or perhaps they just wanted to be edgy...but once they made that decision they should've stuck to it. And weirdly to as much as I complain about Cerberus's Portryal in 3 a lot of it does come down to a lot of technicalities. Technically the Illusive Man is one note now...but Martin Sheen still does an amazing job voicing him...technically it seems improbable they should have this much military force, but oh wait they did have shipyards in 2 so technically maybe they did. Its weird. A lot I would have done differently but a few things still work. Lol, no arguments here. I liked that there was an organisation that was about defending humanity, but Bio just turned them into what the Merc groups that you encounter in ME2. *Sigh* There's a lot of things Cerberus could have been.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 9, 2021 0:27:43 GMT
As an aside on this note too I have been recording all of Abigail's encounters with TIM in ME 3 which is weird because I do not think I got them all in 2, but despite how 'badly written' the man is I find it weird that the scenes themselves are pretty epic and Martin Sheen acts the hell out of the role.
Edit: And I just realized too you could have tied the 'Ceberus redemption arc' to whether or not you kept the Collector base at the end of 2. They still would have gotten indoctrinated but the effect wouldn't have been strong because the base would've been intact so it makes their redemption choice based instead of dependent on score or anything.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Aug 9, 2021 0:49:59 GMT
Kinda ... would have been better if Bioware would have left Cerberus as some sort of rogue spec ops backed/abetted by (insane) higher-ups in Alliance gov't/military and some shady corps (see the Noveria connection), as opposed to giving everyone else an idiot ball in an attempt to shoehorn them into the spotlight and justify character assassinating and railroading Shepard into being their lapdog and making them a ridiculous creator's pet.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 9, 2021 0:56:46 GMT
Kinda ... would have been better if Bioware would have left Cerberus as some sort of rogue spec ops backed/abetted by (insane) higher-ups in Alliance gov't/military and some shady corps (see the Noveria connection), as opposed to giving everyone else an idiot ball in an attempt to shoehorn them into the spotlight and justify character assassinating and railroading Shepard into being their lapdog and making them a ridiculous creator's pet. Considering how often that Shepard can complain about the alliance between her and them and considering that she can basically screw over his entire plans, I think lapdog is...inaccurate. Edit: Also as mentioned Shepard in 1 and 2 can do things very in line with Ceberus ideals...being a very aggressive renegade ends justify the means space racist which can even commit genocide.
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Post by Phantom on Aug 9, 2021 1:21:40 GMT
*gets out his Popcorn stand out and makes more than enough popcorn for those whom post in this thread and tells everyone not to worry about getting indoctrinated*
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Post by Son of Dorn on Aug 9, 2021 1:31:11 GMT
*gets out his Popcorn stand out and makes more than enough popcorn for those whom post in this thread and tells everyone not to worry about getting indoctrinated* Make sure you don't give any to the Alliance supporters. 😉
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Post by colfoley on Aug 9, 2021 1:40:24 GMT
*gets out his Popcorn stand out and makes more than enough popcorn for those whom post in this thread and tells everyone not to worry about getting indoctrinated* Make sure you don't give any to the Alliance supporters. 😉 *supports the Alliance and Cerberus in equal measure...sweats*
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Post by Son of Dorn on Aug 9, 2021 1:51:35 GMT
Make sure you don't give any to the Alliance supporters. 😉 *supports the Alliance and Cerberus in equal measure...sweats* Okay, you get half. 😉
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Post by Phantom on Aug 9, 2021 1:56:17 GMT
Make sure you don't give any to the Alliance supporters. 😉 *supports the Alliance and Cerberus in equal measure...sweats* *tells one of the Lady Cerberus Phantoms to take Colfoley to a room so he can relax and sweat in peace*
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dmc1001
N7
Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
Prime Posts: 77
Posts: 9,942 Likes: 17,687
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 9, 2021 7:43:56 GMT
But then in ME 3 they decided to turn this borderline 3 dimensional organization and turn it back into a one dimensional organization while simultaneously flat out ignoring all the crimes the Council/ Alliance commited in ME 2. I'm blanking here. What were all the crimes committed by the Alliance and Council in ME2? Willful ignorance isn't, unfortunately, a crime.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2021 15:36:25 GMT
But then in ME 3 they decided to turn this borderline 3 dimensional organization and turn it back into a one dimensional organization while simultaneously flat out ignoring all the crimes the Council/ Alliance commited in ME 2. I'm blanking here. What were all the crimes committed by the Alliance and Council in ME2? Willful ignorance isn't, unfortunately, a crime. My question as well. Essentialy, all they did in ME2 was either reinstate or not reinstate Shepard, particularly if they are a multispecies council. The only crime the Alliance may commit in ME2 is blowing up the Aratoht relay... if Shepard doesn't do that DLC.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2021 15:40:32 GMT
The Council may have used the krogan as cannon fodder, but they didn't turn them into husks to do it... Cerberus did... along with experimenting on rachni and husks (per Kohoku's mission). Also, the Krogan relished being put to war against the rachni because they wanted to be the galaxy's heroes. The Council used them, yes... but I still don't think that makes them "as bad as Cerberus." Only because they're a warrior culture. The Council exploited them. Then they pulled a suprised face when it blew up in their face (suprise, suprise). Also, the Genophase is responsible for killing hundreds of thousands, if not millions of kids each year, for over a thousand years, so really the Council has killed WAY more than Cerberus ever did. And they were all kids. Sooooo....? Was that the council? The way the history goes down in ME3 Citadel DLC, the Salarians (who developed the genophage got cold feet) and the Turians deployed it anyways. Also, was it the same council? ... unlikely, since that was like 1,400 years before ME3... and humans certainly weren't a part of it back then. Metaphor... two UN nations go to war against each other and one of those nation's leaders attempts a genocide on the civilians of the other... do you hold the entire UN responsible as "murderers" or do you hold the leaders of the one nation responsible?
As I see it, the Council is like the UN. They are limited in what they can accomplish because they are not the ruling body over the nations involved. Each one of those nations has their own government and military. There conversations with Shepard usually involved some sort of admission on their part that the events were happening outside their jurisdiction or were at risk of causing wars between the various races (nations) within council space. It wasn't just the humans that got that sort of explanation from them... the batarians took their issues with the humans to the Council and got nowhere as well.
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Post by Guardian on Aug 9, 2021 16:49:51 GMT
If we had to be with Cerberus in ME2, it would have been a lot better if that was part of an undercover assignment for the Council. Mass Effect 2 Double Agent now that's an idea I utterly adore. This is an ME 2 game I would have loved playing.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 9, 2021 16:51:02 GMT
But then in ME 3 they decided to turn this borderline 3 dimensional organization and turn it back into a one dimensional organization while simultaneously flat out ignoring all the crimes the Council/ Alliance commited in ME 2. I'm blanking here. What were all the crimes committed by the Alliance and Council in ME2? Willful ignorance isn't, unfortunately, a crime. Sure ignorance isn't a crime, but in the end, it proved they have the I don't care attitude. I would say the Alliance is the human version of the asari, wait till the last minute to do something.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2021 16:59:51 GMT
The Council was never as bad as Cerberus. They waited for evidence and then acted by stripping Saren of his spectre status and ultimately appointing another spectre to take him in. They passed along what information they obtained as well. They never experimented on numerous species or killed any Alliance Admirals in ME1.
In ME2, Shepard again comes to them with an issue that is outside Council space. In all but one scenario, they will offer to reinstate Shepard even though he/she is working with an enemy of the Council.
In ME3, again, they aren't the ones trying to turn various species into Reapers. It's Cerberus doing their same old SH that they did in ME1... just with the added knowledge of tech obtained from the Collector Base (even if Shepard destroyed it, they recover pieces).
They're always evil... just hiding it from Shepard and his crew in ME2 (as revealed when you attack TIM's base in ME3).
Exhibit A: Cerberus is a human supremacist organization dedicated to the domination of humanity throughout the Galaxy with no regard for the Civil Liberties of others - We see this most clearly in their occupation of Omega, the only time that we have seen Cerberus in control and ruling an area, with them controlling the population and setting up specific quarters for them seperating them one from another. And with them disarming any of the population of Omega who was not human. However at the end of ME 1 which transitions into ME 2 Shepard is left with a choice and a cosequence revolving around what happens to the Council and the resultant state of the galaxy in ME 2. For a Renegade Shepard which killed the Council the Alliance decides to establish a human only Council which sets up extreme curtailing of the Civil Liberties of the cultures throughout Council Space and proves to be extremly unpopular with the other species resulting in some pretty bad relations. This government is, essentially, a mirrored outcome of what Cerberus wants to achieve. For a Paragon Shepard which kills the Council the Alliance sets up a Council with a human chairman...which then proceeds to curtail civil liberties and is unpopular with their alien allies though maybe not as much so. For a Shepard that preserves the Council, while this is an option which preserves the most liberty and while I have not done this in a while so the details are foggy in my mind...I do believe they still esstablish travel restrictions and restrictive security checks for 'geth infiltrators'...which again the funny part is such meassures are stupid when dealing with the geth in the first place and is really amounts to the Council/Alliance cracking down just because they can. So in either case the Council/ Alliance decides to take more control over their political sphere of influence and the Alliance especially, if they get the chance, tries to take over as the dominant force of the Galaxy, no different then what Cerberus is trying to do. Also keep in mind while a bit more understandable considering this is what I would do if I were them, it is hardly against the so called attitudes the Council and the Asari typically hold...but in ME 3 we discover that the Asari has used a Prothean Beacon on Thessia to take political and economic control of the galaxy. They do not share this technology and has used it to establish Asari dominance throughout their sphere of influence...exactly like Cerberus plans to do with the Crucible/ Reapers. Exhibit B: Cerberus, as terrorist organizations do, use violence and cohersion to achieve their ends, mass murder, political assassination, etc. Admiral Kahoka and I do believe they were tied to a few other mass casualty events...and even before the events of ME 3. But the Council has a branch specifically devoted to black ops, specifically designed to use these sorts of tactics, and specifically tasked with being above the law. The Spectres. It is quite telling to me that out of the four Spectres we meet in the trilogy only one of them is a legitimate through and through good guy. Saren Arterius was a *rogue Spectre* who engaged in several morally questionable activities, the attack on Eden Prime, Anderson's story, and his own apparent racism against humanity. Tela Vasir who leases her activities to the Shadow Broker and engages in terrorism on his behalf...the bombing on the Drakon Trade Center. And then Commander Shepard herself, which can be played as being quite the ruthless ends justifies the means mustache twirling racist throughout all of ME 1 and ME 2. Hell in this vein too the Council has no problem with Shepard working for Cerberus and giving her her Spectre status back in ME 2. My Shepard usually tells them to shove it but it is telling that the Council has no issue with Shepard working with Cerberus, a terrorist organization, an avowed enemy of the Council, etc, as long as they could enforce their will. And on top of this the Council has the rather nasty habit of looking the other way when their agents commit mass murder as long as a reasonable scape goat is made be it Cerberus, the Geth, Anderson when Saren Arterius blew up the refinery, or Cerberus and Shepard when Tela Vasir blew up the trade center...given their history she is probably right that the Council would just blame Cerberus instead of launching an investigation. And before anyone says this is just the crimes of the modern organization one of the first logs in the Citadel Archives is them recruiting the first Spectre, a Salarian. He is cold, aloof, semeingly psychopathic, I am quite sure a criminal at the time, and they let him know they are recruiting him specifically for his more aggressive tendencies. Exhibit C: Cerberus engages in medical experiments on their fellow humans and other sentient life forms. Admittedly this is Cerberus at their worse and given the scale and repeated uses of this this is still much worse then the Council themselves but it is still worth nothing there is a big three hundred pound gorilla in the room. The Genophage. Approved, developped, and then utilized by Council Governments against another species. Now this might be a bit of a stretch but I would think that its development would involve live Krogan test subjects, just like Cerberus with David Archer, and its utilization meant the Council was just fine deploying a bio weapon against the Krogan which fundamentally altered their genetics and ended up causing countless, literally countless, numbers of still born deaths and this is to say nothing of the socialogical consequences. So much so that many Krogan in the universe claim that this is basically long game genocide and that is certainly a reasonable assessment. And this attitude continues well into the modern era resulting in a genophage modification project being approved by the Salarian Union and Dalatrass Linron being quite insistent it was still the right thing to do all the way up till the Reaper war in 2186. Now like in a lot of ME situations there is a lot of justification for the initial deployment of the Genophage given it may have been the only choice between that and A. Living under a Krogan Empire or B. the end of all life that is not Krogan/ their own genocide/ Krogan being genocided right then and there. So...yeah. But the issue is as comparatively good as it might have been it was still a pretty evil action which Cerberus has also done...well honestly a lot less now that I am thinking about it. The question was "what crimes does the Council commit?" You're not specifying anything that is a crime. Yes, the all-human Council "curtails civil liberties"... or so we are told... but none of that is really evident on the Citadel in ME2. Joram Talid, for example, is able to openly protest against humans regardless of the nature of the Council. Again, where is the evidence of these CRIMES committed by the Council your are alleging.
In ME1, Cerberus is committing crimes... 1) killing an Alliance Admiral is a crime. 2) Since husks come from humans... then we know they had three in captivity on Binthu.. along with Rachni. Those are crimes.
As far as the genophage... you're speaking about a council from more than 1,400 years prior to Shepard's time. Mordin doesn't indicate that he was working for the Council when he updated the genophage. He says he was working for Salarian STG Special Tasks Group. We don't know whether their assignment came from the Council or from the Salarian government (Dalatrass). So, again, there appears to have been no crime commited by the Council in ME2.
The Council is ineffective and tends to "turn a blind eye" because it is somewhat powerless to take action, particularly when the Turians are involved... but that doesn't make them a criminal organization. Cerberus went rogue... left the Alliance... and is clearly controlled by one man, TIM... and they commit crimes against humanity and other species in council space. The council is not "as bad as Cerberus."
As far as the spectres go... we see first-hand how little the Council actually has control over them. They appoint them and basically cut them loose... putting the onus on the spectre to "do what they feel is right (or wrong). That's also not a crime because in the end, all they bestow on a spectre is a symbolic title. The impression of spectres being above the law that the public holds is what puts them above the law. It's not like the Council steps in and prevents the Alliance from putting Shepard into detection even if he/she is, at that time, still a spectre.
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