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Post by Walter Black on Sept 8, 2021 19:57:10 GMT
Since the Qunari have black powder and cannons,many have speculated that it is only a matter of time before Dragon Age has working blunder busses and flintlocks. Also, recent games like Pillars of Eternity and Greedfall proved that they can include guns in more or less epic fantasy settings. So what do you think?
Just to be clear, I don't think such weapons can, or should be mass produced through out Thedas. Just a few for Companion(s), a boss fight or two, and *maybe* the player.
Pros:
-Advances the world from standard medieval fantasy.
-Provides new tactical gameplay and cutscene interrupt opportunities.
-Possible quest hooks for securing, making, or destroying the technology.
-Could give an edge for mundanes fighting enemy mages.
-Guns are just cool.
Cons:
-Could potentially alienate DA fans who got into the series specifically because it *was* medieval fantasy.
-Balancing issues could make the guns more trouble than they're worth.
-With everything else going on, DA4 might not enough time to properly explore all the potential ways guns could change the world.
-If limited to one two specific characters (like Varrick with Bianca), said gunslingers could come off as Creator's Pets.
-Instead of leveling the playing field, guns could add one more way mundanes could oppress mages.
-Guns are just overrated.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 8, 2021 20:13:51 GMT
Ah guns. I really want guns in DA or any fantasy setting really because guns should be a thing right around the time, we were starting to see them in the era of history DA seems to be mimicking, despite the fact that it might take away the thunder of my own work I am trying to do. So yes, I want to see guns.
However, I want to see them be slowly introduced into the series to. So we have seen basically no guns to this point, no personal firearms, maybe a few canons so it would make sense for them to only be in the hands of certain groups or people. A specialized unit of Qunari for instance, a mercenary who has been able to steal one of them, just one of your companions. Get us out of lore and us in lore used to them first and their existance before making them more prominent. So yes, I voted for specific characters, PC excluded.
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Twitter Guru
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Hrungr on Sept 8, 2021 21:16:57 GMT
It's an idea that could certainly be fun if done right (eg. a variety of explosive shells with different effects). But it would be tricky to implement in a way that feels right for DA, and was distinctly different enough from magic (and existing "tech" like Bianca). BW has certainly toyed with the idea for a while now, so I wouldn't be surprised to see it implemented... Iron Bull's Hand Cannon:  Possibly a rifle-styled weapon in this concept art;  A turret ability in DA:I that didn't make the final game: |
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Post by smilesja on Sept 8, 2021 21:25:31 GMT
Man I can't wait to get my hands on a Brown Bess. If it's true, then it'll be the first time I'll do a ranged build.
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Post by phoray on Sept 8, 2021 23:27:51 GMT
I voted to allow them
But I think they're boring if they use metal bullets and flint. They need to splash a lot more magic on this to make me interested
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Post by Son of Dorn on Sept 8, 2021 23:31:30 GMT
So long as there's miniguns or shotguns.
Oh and a famas too! 😋
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Sept 8, 2021 23:55:58 GMT
If we have them, available to all. But honestly, guns in settings where mages can sunder the fabric of reality, pulling meteor storms from the Fade or shift through the space in between moments makes guns seem pretty dull.
No objection to them being available if people want them, but I've never played, watched or read a fantasy setting with guns where I thought "this is improved because guns".
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 9, 2021 0:12:56 GMT
I see no reason why they shouldn’t be. Between the Qunari having cannons and The Iron Bull almost having a literal handgun, to Varric’s assault crossbow or Isabela’s pistol-sized crossbow and Inquisitors crossbow hand if a Jenny, to the Sha-Brytol’s Gatling magic crossbows, multiple groups have the capability to create them.
Maybe to differentiate them from bows, have them be like how crossbows were in DAO: deal more damage, but take longer to reload.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 9, 2021 0:37:07 GMT
If we have them, available to all. But honestly, guns in settings where mages can sunder the fabric of reality, pulling meteor storms from the Fade or shift through the space in between moments makes guns seem pretty dull. No objection to them being available if people want them, but I've never played, watched or read a fantasy setting with guns where I thought "this is improved because guns". Given that guns, certainly in their modern form can also be effectively like a mtereor storm then I am not entirely sure I follow the logic. And well it does just depend on how Bio decides to use them if they start inlcuding them in the setting more and more. After all the Qunari don't really have mages, they have the sarabaas but given how little they use them or trust them is likely one of the reasons they developped explosives in the first place. SO that principle can be applied to the Andrastian nations in the South. What if cannons and guns ends up making the need for lyrium in mages obsolete? What if they are the great qualizer between the normies and the mages that allows for effective policing of magic without the need for Templars or restrictive Chantry policies? These are just a few of the issues which could arise from firearms being introduced into the Andrastian nations and Tevinter off the top of my head... of course they could just go 'this is neat, guns brrrrt.'
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Sept 9, 2021 2:20:19 GMT
Given that guns, certainly in their modern form can also be effectively like a mtereor storm then I am not entirely sure I follow the logic. I was using the in-game description of the Rift Mage ability; Firestorm. Meteors is incorrect, whereas meteorite is a meteor that reaches a planets surface. My fault, though. But if you're of the opinion that a human portable firearm in our current day, real world is capable of wreaking the same devastation as between 15 and 55 meteor(ite)s, all aflame, over a period of 15 seconds within a 6 metre area, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. If you were maybe referring to single point or single target damage from a conventional weapon in todays world, then I still think a single lightning bolt would cause greater damage. Moot point, because either way, the target is dead, but in absolute terms unless we're talking rocket propelled grenade or rocket launcher, the lightning has greater capacity for eliminating all trace of the target's existence than a gun does. |
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Post by smilesja on Sept 9, 2021 2:29:05 GMT
If we have them, available to all. But honestly, guns in settings where mages can sunder the fabric of reality, pulling meteor storms from the Fade or shift through the space in between moments makes guns seem pretty dull. No objection to them being available if people want them, but I've never played, watched or read a fantasy setting with guns where I thought "this is improved because guns". Unless we can do this: 
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Post by duskwanderer on Sept 9, 2021 2:30:29 GMT
Given the time period, I think these are going to be cannons more than anything else. A bulky, cumbersome thing that is only used for hitting fortified, stationary targets. I'd see it more like the "defend the trebuchet" moment in Haven.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Sept 9, 2021 3:36:11 GMT
If they show up anywhere it would make most sense for them to show up with the qunari who distrust magic and have already invented gunpowder and cannons. It would make sense that they would develop more weapons in this area to fight Thedas and it's mages, it's more a question of how long it takes them and whether we'll see it in this age.
The Dwarves make metal prosthetics, lyrium based explosives, crossbows like Bianca, and whatever the sha brytol bolters are... we're sure to see more technology high jinks from them. But their stuff does tend to involve things like lyrium and enchantment, so any gun-like device from them may not be a true gun.
If we see it from the qunari then it will no doubt be being used by them to help win the invasion of Tevinter/Thedas and probably be carried by a special enemy npc type. Probably be more normal early guns, but not like the first one ever invented. Like they developed the first gun a while ago then kept it under their hat until they made ones worth equipping soldiers with.
Whereas if we see a gun-like thing made by a dwarf then I could see it being a more powerful item carried by the inventor whose a companion still tinkering with it and has other devices too.
Of course once they're out there they can be stolen, designs copied. So while the first game they show up in they might be a rare occurrence and unavailable to the pc, that might change in future games. (If they introduce them at all)
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 9, 2021 3:59:25 GMT
The Executors might also have guns. We don’t know the technology level of places outside of Thedas, but they should be more advanced since they haven’t had to deal with things like Blights.
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Post by gaycaravaggio on Sept 9, 2021 7:52:49 GMT
I always like the idea of guns existing in fantasy worlds, even video games, but, when they're playable, I often end up not using them unless the game corners you into using them.  I wouldn't say I mind it, as long as the lore behind why they have guns makes sense to me. |
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Post by arvaarad on Sept 9, 2021 16:02:22 GMT
The Executors might also have guns. We don’t know the technology level of places outside of Thedas, but they should be more advanced since they haven’t had to deal with things like Blights. Yep, they’re a big question mark for sure. About the only thing we know about the north is that the Qunari left in a hurry, which maybe points to more advanced weaponry (or some bigger threat) up there. ...buuuut it could also be a case of “these people aren’t letting us impose all our rules on them, persecution! Anyway time to hop on the Mayflower.” Since Solas seems to have Opinions(tm) on Executors I’m inclined to think something weird is going on up there, but it’s hard to know whether it’s good or bad. |
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Post by Buckeldemon on Sept 9, 2021 16:20:07 GMT
The Dwarves make metal prosthetics, lyrium based explosives, crossbows like Bianca, and whatever the sha brytol bolters are... we're sure to see more technology high jinks from them. But their stuff does tend to involve things like lyrium and enchantment, so any gun-like device from them may not be a true gun. On that piece of concept art, the Sha-Brytol weapon had 'tendons', so I guess it is closer to a torsion system or (cross)bow than propelling the metal ball by exploding something.
Anyway, I clicked no.
Given the overall setting, the most I can see we end up is some early hand cannons/arquebus or siege cannons, which all should be comparatively inaccurate, short-ranged and come with a risk of blowing up the operators and potentially scare opponents not used to them (and their horses) away. Regardless, I guess it would be a balance nightmare trying to make firearms either not too super special sauce or too useless compared to, say, bows/crossbows.
I guess I'd rather have a more "eastern"-styled application here. Instead of massive stone or metal balls shot through pipes, have types of hand-thrown bombs (withput magical ingredients this time), bombs thrown by torsion engine, mortars or even rockets-on-spears, even though I wouldn't exactly go into hwacha territory.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 9, 2021 20:12:35 GMT
Given that guns, certainly in their modern form can also be effectively like a mtereor storm then I am not entirely sure I follow the logic. I was using the in-game description of the Rift Mage ability; Firestorm. Meteors is incorrect, whereas meteorite is a meteor that reaches a planets surface. My fault, though. But if you're of the opinion that a human portable firearm in our current day, real world is capable of wreaking the same devastation as between 15 and 55 meteor(ite)s, all aflame, over a period of 15 seconds within a 6 metre area, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. If you were maybe referring to single point or single target damage from a conventional weapon in todays world, then I still think a single lightning bolt would cause greater damage. Moot point, because either way, the target is dead, but in absolute terms unless we're talking rocket propelled grenade or rocket launcher, the lightning has greater capacity for eliminating all trace of the target's existence than a gun does. But we aren't talking about real meterors/ites again remember. They are fade analogoues and probably just whatever they remind the people of Thedas of/ actual meterors otherwise the entire Emerald Graves probably would have been lit up with one usage of the spell. I mean maybe this is a really weird thought experiment trying to compare video game physics and real world physics in the first place given the whole hit points thing but spells like lightning bolt or firestorm don't often seem to be instantly fatal...like getting struck by lightning or being hit by a real meteor were...they are just magical approximations of the real effect, not as powerful certainly. And maybe comparing it to modern firearms is a bit unfair but then even fairly primitive firearms can do a lot of what we see magic do. A lead ball from a canon can wreck a lot of devestation on the human body...so can a musket ball or rifled bullet.
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Post by mattjamho on Sept 9, 2021 20:23:11 GMT
If they were just an additional part of combat then perhaps…
But honestly there’s plenty of gun slinging games out there, I don’t think DA would benefit from them. I could see canons involved in the Qunari invasion, but that’s about all.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 9, 2021 20:40:23 GMT
I actually should point out to I was mistaken in my history. I thought portable firearms were introduced to Europe a lot earlier then they ended up being, so it would not stand to reason that 'guns' would be in DA for that reason...though we have seen explosives, canons, and what certainly looks like a gun as well as mechanical devices such as Bianca so it sseems they may get in there regardless.
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Post by tostardo on Sept 9, 2021 22:34:43 GMT
Honestly, just make crossbows better and usable first.
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Post by adonniel on Sept 10, 2021 1:06:14 GMT
Guns = the point in time when I stop playing a medieval/magic/swords game due to it starting to fail to be so.  Obv robots crawling through Qunari jungle next and they'll be fighting with dinosaurs.  Most unfortunately, I can see it happening. There were some revolutionists in Inquisition who were all for the leeches medicine, and non mage humans advancing something called science and medicine instead of using magic to heal. Also healing magic has already been tossed out the window. Felt like with that minor npc at the hospital there were hints of the game heading that way. Why not replace fireballs with guns next.
Oh yea and I see that pain in the arse chemical workbench too in advance at your heroes' headquarters. Hurry Hurry Hurry! Slay 5000 wolves in the wilds for a chance to get an ingredient! If you also slay 30000 bears randomly in the wilds, you might get another ingredient! If you mix these two ingredients at the workbench, you'll make the explosive powder and you'll be able to shoot your gun! Ain't it great?  I chose the magic setting game for a reason that I like magic setting games. I most assuredly don't want any technology in them.  |
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Inactive Moderator 
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Post by mousestalker on Sept 10, 2021 13:27:03 GMT
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Post by xerrai on Sept 10, 2021 17:44:58 GMT
[...] Most unfortunately, I can see it happening. There were some revolutionists in Inquisition who were all for the leeches medicine, and non mage humans advancing something called science and medicine instead of using magic to heal. Also healing magic has already been tossed out the window. Felt like with that minor npc at the hospital there were hints of the game heading that way. Why not replace fireballs with guns next.
[...] I chose the magic setting game for a reason that I like magic setting games. I most assuredly don't want any technology in them. You do realize that magic--and healing magic in particular--has never been "pervasive" in this setting, yeah? In addition to healing magic being a difficult thing to learn on its own, most mages in southern thedas are predominantly relegated to remaining in towers unless called upon by the Chantry, templars, or nobles. Meaning that of all people, commoners can't reliably gain access to magical medical care. Armies can't rely on them either since the actual amount of healing mages are just so rare they just can't keep up with the logistics of an ongoing conflict. Not to mention that the Circles are expected to remain neutral in major political issues. Trying to advance mundane medicine under these conditions is only logical. Necessary, even. Magic is simply not widely available in southern Thedas. In a setting where magic usage in society is artificially made even more scarce by sociopolitical factors, research in mundane healing is a must. But they clearly haven't gotten far. That "revolutionist" surgeon in Skyhold also advocated for the balancing of the humors and amputations, which is in line with old medieval healing practices. And as far as I know, there's nothing indicating that these were all new discoveries either. I may be all for keeping guns to a minimum, but mundane healing seems to be an odd thing to point out as something being "too advanced" in a medieval setting.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Sept 16, 2021 19:25:05 GMT
I see no reason why they shouldn’t be. Between the Qunari having cannons and The Iron Bull almost having a literal handgun, to Varric’s assault crossbow or Isabela’s pistol-sized crossbow and Inquisitors crossbow hand if a Jenny, to the Sha-Brytol’s Gatling magic crossbows, multiple groups have the capability to create them. Maybe to differentiate them from bows, have them be like how crossbows were in DAO: deal more damage, but take longer to reload. Wait when did iron bull have a hand cannon?
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I wouldn't say I mind it, as long as the lore behind why they have guns makes sense to me.
Obv robots crawling through Qunari jungle next and they'll be fighting with dinosaurs. 
