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Post by necrowaif on Apr 18, 2022 19:18:51 GMT
Earlier this morning, David Gaider posed this question this morning, though he also referenced the next Mass Effect.
Thoughts?
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Post by colfoley on Apr 18, 2022 19:46:29 GMT
'None of the above I guess' ![:lol:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/qUctXNjCPgwPaLsZeKry.png) In general I like having my own canon and I like the fact that generally BioWare lets me tell my own story across games and carry it over as best they can. But I recognize it is still their universe and they are the professionals and they *own* the world. I guess it would depend on the circumstances in the end of the day but in general I would prefer them to try and strive for letting me keep that canon...BUT if they felt they had to create a canon choice in order to tell an amazing story AND I feel like they pull it off then sure. Like canoninzing any of the endings in ME 3. While I even hate Synethesis and would be unamused if that were the canon world state I would still understand if they felt it was the only way to tell a new game within the MWG. (Or preferably a bridge to Andromeda)
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Post by luketrevelyan on Apr 18, 2022 19:59:31 GMT
It is difficult to answer without knowing the specifics of the choice and the way they handled it. In general, I feel like this should be a last resort and done sparingly.
ME3 endings immediately come to mind. In this very specific case, I'm ok with some kind of canon or coalescing of choices into one outcome. Otherwise, they can't really continue in the Milky Way galaxy and I feel like there is still so much I'd like to experience in that environment. But really I just wish they hadn't ended that way to begin with (did they really think they'd never want sequels?).
On the other hand, I wasn't super thrilled with Leliana coming back even though I love her character. They could have brought in a new character and it would have been fine IMO.
So it really depends if I buy the reason it had to be done and it improves the story enough that I can get over my choice not being respected.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 18, 2022 20:02:21 GMT
It is difficult to answer without knowing the specifics of the choice and the way they handled it. In general, I feel like this should be a last resort and done sparingly. ME3 endings immediately come to mind. In this very specific case, I'm ok with some kind of canon or coalescing of choices into one outcome. Otherwise, they can't really continue in the Milky Way galaxy and I feel like there is still so much I'd like to experience in that environment. But really I just wish they hadn't ended that way to begin with (did they really think they'd never want sequels?). On the other hand, I wasn't super thrilled with Leliana coming back even though I love her character. They could have brought in a new character and it would have been fine IMO. So it really depends if I buy the reason it had to be done and it improves the story enough that I can get over my choice not being respected. For me I didn't mind Leliana as much per se. Or any of the characters they decided to bring back for Inquisition though I suppose Leiliana was the most 'pushing it'. Same for Anderson in ME 3. On the one hand would have been interesting to see him be the Councilor but I really do understand him leading the resistance on Earth and it was the best for the story and at least it was acknowledged via dialogue...but the canon choice that bugged the crap out of me was with the Rachni queen. That felt forced.
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Post by luketrevelyan on Apr 18, 2022 20:04:10 GMT
It is difficult to answer without knowing the specifics of the choice and the way they handled it. In general, I feel like this should be a last resort and done sparingly. ME3 endings immediately come to mind. In this very specific case, I'm ok with some kind of canon or coalescing of choices into one outcome. Otherwise, they can't really continue in the Milky Way galaxy and I feel like there is still so much I'd like to experience in that environment. But really I just wish they hadn't ended that way to begin with (did they really think they'd never want sequels?). On the other hand, I wasn't super thrilled with Leliana coming back even though I love her character. They could have brought in a new character and it would have been fine IMO. So it really depends if I buy the reason it had to be done and it improves the story enough that I can get over my choice not being respected. For me I didn't mind Leliana as much per se. Or any of the characters they decided to bring back for Inquisition though I suppose Leiliana was the most 'pushing it'. Same for Anderson in ME 3. On the one hand would have been interesting to see him be the Councilor but I really do understand him leading the resistance on Earth and it was the best for the story and at least it was acknowledged via dialogue...but the canon choice that bugged the crap out of me was with the Rachni queen. That felt forced. Yeah, the Rachni queen might actually be the worst one now that you mention it.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 18, 2022 20:09:16 GMT
Curious why he’s even asking, since he no longer works for BioWare. Probably just being a jerk, trying to stir up fears he knows people have with this subject.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 18, 2022 20:09:46 GMT
It just occured to me to that this could also be mitigated depending on how you handle the choice in the first place. The idea being that if you have a choice the player makes where you *might* want to invalidate it in the future or you *will* invalidate it in the future it is best to sort of set it up and make it clear that will happen. Like in Legacy you kill Corypheus (though this is a bad example since you had no choice there but I think the idea still checks out ![:lol:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/qUctXNjCPgwPaLsZeKry.png) ) and he possesses the Warden you choose which leads to the events of Inquisition...well you can do something like that. Granted again this couls till ruffle some feathers but again could have easily had Anderson say something like 'you know don't expect me to stay, I'll go back to the fleet if you have to'. Or include a bit of dialogue or a brief cutscene indicating that a character might have survived you killing them if you intend on bringing them back later (yes I know Leiliana was because of a glitch, work with me here)
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Post by colfoley on Apr 18, 2022 20:10:35 GMT
Curious why he’s even asking, since he no longer works for BioWare. Probably just being a jerk, trying to stir up fears he knows people have with this subject. -He is related to BioWare. -BioWare is popular. -It could be indictive of whatever projects he is working on or morbid curiosity.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 18, 2022 20:12:35 GMT
Curious why he’s even asking, since he no longer works for BioWare. Probably just being a jerk, trying to stir up fears he knows people have with this subject. -He is related to BioWare. -BioWare is popular. -It could be indictive of whatever projects he is working on or morbid curiosity. Not anymore he isn’t. The moment he left the company, he shouldn’t make posts like this. It’d be like if someone left Coca-Cola and then posted “How would people feel if Coke changed their flavor?” If his own projects, then he should ask in an universal way rather than BioWare specifically.
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Post by githcheater on Apr 18, 2022 20:44:49 GMT
-He is related to BioWare. -BioWare is popular. -It could be indictive of whatever projects he is working on or morbid curiosity. Not anymore he isn’t. The moment he left the company, he shouldn’t make posts like this. It’d be like if someone left Coca-Cola and then posted “How would people feel if Coke changed their flavor?” If his own projects, then he should ask in an universal way rather than BioWare specifically. Is somone going to demand that Mark Darrah stop posting Bioware related videos? LOL
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Post by leadintea on Apr 18, 2022 20:46:38 GMT
I'm all for it. Devs don't have insight into the future and don't know how certain decisions they've made will pan out. Some choices they've presented to players may end up being more difficult to implement than they presumed, sometimes it doesn't fit in with the story of future games, and so on and so forth.
Personally, I've always thought the ability to carry over decisions you've made in one game to carry on into future games was a cute feature at best, but not one necessary to my enjoyment of a game. The way people frothed at the mouth regarding Leliana, for example, has always come across as peak weirdo behavior to me, sorry, especially since there was a reasonable enough explanation the devs could concoct for bringing her back.
For me, I'd rather the devs trample over players' individual canon to create a coherent, tightly woven story for the whole. Ideally, they'd try and preserve as many choices as they could, but I think they should do whatever to create a good story even if it means canceling all carryover decisions.
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Post by Tittus on Apr 18, 2022 20:46:58 GMT
Depends on the scope of the choices.
ME3 choices involve all the galaxy and important races. It's impossible to make a sequel without defining canon choices. I'd prefer to bury Milk Way altogether and stay in Andromeda. As for DA4, we're to another country and the studio doesn't have to spend that many resources to adapt each choice.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 18, 2022 20:49:32 GMT
I'm all for it. Devs don't have insight into the future and don't know how certain decisions they've made will pan out. Some choices they've presented to players may end up being more difficult to implement than they presumed, sometimes it doesn't fit in with the story of future games, and so on and so forth. Personally, I've always thought the ability to carry over decisions you've made in one game to carry on into future games was a cute feature at best, but not one necessary to my enjoyment of a game. The way people frothed at the mouth regarding Leliana, for example, has always come across as peak weirdo behavior to me, sorry, especially since there was a reasonable enough explanation the devs could concoct for bringing her back. For me, I'd rather the devs trample over players' individual canon to create a coherent, tightly woven story for the whole. Ideally, they'd try and preserve as many choices as they could, but I think they should do whatever to create a good story even if it means canceling all carryover decisions. I tend to agree. As much as I like everything and the idea of everything ultimatley it comes down to 'what creates the better game/ story' and sometimes the more choice you give players the more you risk loosing narrative, character, or thematic cohesion. And Bio, or any video games objective, should be to tell a good story first and include things like player choice if you can get away with it. And to be fair I think BioWare has done pretty ok in this regard overall.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Apr 18, 2022 21:10:32 GMT
I chose 'fine if it's a new game', which was second based on the approx 9500 votes so far. But the clear winner was 'not if the story was cool'. Suggesting that the 'fury' would be contained, as many have always suspected, to a tiny and irritatingly loud minority. That claim to be part of a silent majority. Confirming that they don't know how to count. Or what silent means.
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Post by Beerfish on Apr 18, 2022 21:20:23 GMT
I don't care as long as the game is good, i could care less what they make canon. I'll get over it i am sure if it was something i did not choose.
The good news is this is obviously a new game about Beerfish teaming up with sister/mother Petrice to purge the Qunari from the continent.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2022 21:28:22 GMT
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Apr 18, 2022 21:33:21 GMT
For me I didn't mind Leliana as much per se. Or any of the characters they decided to bring back for Inquisition though I suppose Leiliana was the most 'pushing it'. Me neither because her "death" in DAO is a bit hidden. I bet 90-95% of the (particularly casual gamers) playerbase have never killed her or know that´s possible. Also her "survival" like Oghren (seriously who has a -100 disapproval with without the gifts & pranks dlc)) isn´t that bad. Samson is also ok because we never seen him die in DA2 so old videogame rule.
My only problem is Anders. Anders on his own might work. Ok you have ignore that he can´t be a grey warden but i assume the overwhelming majority of DAA players have recruited him but with Justice? Yeez that a bit too much. Ah yes the Rachni Queen to be honest the only thing that was wrong with a dead Rachni queen that Bioware didn´t alter the rachni model. If the "Breeder" look more unique and & reaperlike i don´t think that many players would dislike that much.
Speaking of Mass Effect: Well the reaper can´t play a big part in future ME because every treat would be defeated in minutes. So they have to leave. If the devs can´t use the Reapers well they could still make Destroy canon.
So my answer of David Gaiders question is it depends. For example Anders, Alistair, Loghain The Iron Bull or Thom Rainers death should be respected but if they have plans for i don´t know Sten as new Arishok, Shale, Architect, Velanna (i really despise her but she has unfinished business) or even Fenris they could ignore (try to explain her survival) the previous decision. Edit: I want to believe that for DA 4 this isn´t that important because Bioware made in DAI unlike DAO or DA 2 preparations for which character i want to use and therefore save some of them. There is a reason they haven´t kill off Calpernia.
Edit Nr. 2: I can´t be mad at Bioware if they ignore decisions like Dagna staying with her father. I am glad that Dagna still follows her dreams and ignore some stranger aka the DAO playercharacter she meet for a short moment of her life.
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on Apr 18, 2022 22:21:39 GMT
I suppose what he's really talking about is Kieran/dark ritual/The Warden's survival, since there's really no choice on that meta level.
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Post by Hrungr on Apr 19, 2022 0:52:50 GMT
David Gaider @davidgaider I ask because there was talk, back in the day, as to whether choices in an RPG were better intended for reactivity *within* a game as opposed to *between* games. The latter is super difficult to maintain in a satisfying way over multiple titles... which is why few games do it.
Naturally, when it comes to Dragon Age and Mass Effect specifically, the fact they've already done it perhaps means that ship has sailed... once the promise of continuity between games has been made, it's probably difficult to go back on it without making many fans angry.
I do wonder, however, whether a *new* title would have that expectation. If an RPG has choices - especially choices that lead to multiple endings - do you, as a player, automatically expect that any follow-up should honor those choices? No matter what the developer says?
I imagine the answer for most would be "no" -- again, most games don't do this, for good reason. Then again, perhaps BioWare's games have created an ideal expectation as to what an RPG (or, at least, an ongoing RPG world) *should* be. It's an interesting question.
Personally, I remember how difficult to was to let go of the Old God Baby being a major plot thing, as it existed in a quantum state that was too expensive to have the divergence I'd originally imagined. I also feel for the Mass Effect developers wrestling with the ME3 endings.
I've always felt there's a big difference between following through on choices in a *satisfying* way. The fans imagine these huge divergences we can't deliver on... so we ultimately end up disappointing most even as we limit our options. So is such continuity *really* worth it?
The answer to that question likely rests with the individual fan. I doubt there's consensus, and the poll reflects that. 20% of the fan base being upset makes for a VERY loud reaction, especially online where every tweet is like a missile fired. So it remains a pickle, I guess.
Patrick Weekes @patrickweekes Read this thread hoping you had a magical answer I had heretofore not considered, but thanks for the pickle.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Apr 19, 2022 1:05:48 GMT
Copying my response to this from the Twitter For me, personally, I guess it would depend on which choice(s) and how many. I'm sure I'd be fine if they were relatively minor. But if I were BioWare, I would be *VERY* hesitant to do this. Especially given how the fandom reacts to even small choices being overridden. Yeah it would depend about on which choices and how major/minor they were to me. For example if they made the dark ritual canon, deleting my Amell's sacrifice, deleting romanced Alistair's choice to sacrifice himself to save my Aeducan etc, that WOULD upset me. By comparison: if they decided to make it canon that the warden gave Bevin his family sword in Redcliffe because they're having Sir Bevin show up as a major character in future games, this I wouldn't mind so much. Even though not all my characters gave him the sword it's a fairly minor decision in an optional side quest.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 19, 2022 1:20:18 GMT
David Gaider @davidgaiderI ask because there was talk, back in the day, as to whether choices in an RPG were better intended for reactivity *within* a game as opposed to *between* games. The latter is super difficult to maintain in a satisfying way over multiple titles... which is why few games do it. Naturally, when it comes to Dragon Age and Mass Effect specifically, the fact they've already done it perhaps means that ship has sailed... once the promise of continuity between games has been made, it's probably difficult to go back on it without making many fans angry. I do wonder, however, whether a *new* title would have that expectation. If an RPG has choices - especially choices that lead to multiple endings - do you, as a player, automatically expect that any follow-up should honor those choices? No matter what the developer says? I imagine the answer for most would be "no" -- again, most games don't do this, for good reason. Then again, perhaps BioWare's games have created an ideal expectation as to what an RPG (or, at least, an ongoing RPG world) *should* be. It's an interesting question. Personally, I remember how difficult to was to let go of the Old God Baby being a major plot thing, as it existed in a quantum state that was too expensive to have the divergence I'd originally imagined. I also feel for the Mass Effect developers wrestling with the ME3 endings. I've always felt there's a big difference between following through on choices in a *satisfying* way. The fans imagine these huge divergences we can't deliver on... so we ultimately end up disappointing most even as we limit our options. So is such continuity *really* worth it? The answer to that question likely rests with the individual fan. I doubt there's consensus, and the poll reflects that. 20% of the fan base being upset makes for a VERY loud reaction, especially online where every tweet is like a missile fired. So it remains a pickle, I guess. Patrick Weekes @patrickweekesRead this thread hoping you had a magical answer I had heretofore not considered, but thanks for the pickle. This is pretty much the crux of the problem and a great little pickle. Fan expectation and imagings can lead to unrealistic expectations (especially when waiting for a decade these things just tend to get worse) so there is that factor... And I think a games internal continuity should be maintained at all costs and is really a lot more possible to matter. Decisions like 'to keep the Wardens or not' is a lot easier to keep track of within the game and not say two or three games down the road...which such a choice could also be flat ignored. And well planning also tends to be a lot more grandiose then reality either because of author limits or limits enforced by lack of resources.
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Post by Sanunes on Apr 19, 2022 1:49:33 GMT
First a disclaimer I am going to say that Twitter polls (and any other online poll) can be highly inaccurate for multiple factors for I have said that about other online polls about BioWare and BioWare games in the past.
To the question itself for me I don't think I would care as long as major plot elements aren't based on that choice. If its being set to establish the world and where everyone is I don't think I would mind. The problem is if its part of the critical path of the game I don't think I would like it as much for it would be something that always feels like a poke when I see it. Even if that happens I doubt it would hurt my enjoyment of the game.
The core problem and I say this about everything online just because it might be a few people that are upset, it doesn't mean it going to put the game won't be put into a negative position with the online reaction. For I don't see how a lot of the meme issues people had with Mass Effect: Andromeda was how the majority of players felt, but it was something that became major news because it was being complained about non-stop and places that post articles online wanted those clicks.
To me the best solution with going forward after a choice, but not using its result it to minimize the references to that choice and never have a direct response to it. I know no matter what happens there will be online complaints, but you need to drive them to the kind that make those people sound like complainer who are just looking to complain. Much like what happened with the cupcakes when a group started to complain that the cupcakes were given to charity instead of eaten by BioWare employees.
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Post by Hrungr on Apr 19, 2022 2:45:24 GMT
Then again, perhaps BioWare's games have created an ideal expectation as to what an RPG (or, at least, an ongoing RPG world) *should* be. It's an interesting question. This is the point I'd highlight. For me, setting aside budget and time constraints for a moment, this is the ideal for an ongoing RPG. And not just for BW, but all big-budget RPG series. Having your choices respected game after game makes the world/universe is one of the big reasons they're so engaging. I mean, just messing around in the DA Keep can be fun... Now, because of budget/time/resource constraints, how those choices are respected/acknowledged can be... uneven. But IMO even a small effort can be impactful and is definitely better than none at all. I would rather have a purely scripted, no choice/branching path, Action-Adventure game series over an RPG series that offers you various choices/big branching paths that aren't respected at all in later games. In some ways, even partially canonizing your PTs can be... oof... if it touches on a major choice or something important to you. Could you imagine: Due to budget constraints, all Inquisitors are hereby assumed to have romanced no one and are recognized as faith-based "Heralds of Andraste". Okay, obviously there's virtually no chance of that happening, but you get the idea. But then that brings us to the Mass Effect series... which is certainly in a tougher spot. I really, REALLY hope they can work it out in such a way that they won't have to impose a canon PT on the MET. Otherwise, it will not be pretty. But back to DA, moving to the northern nations will help the franchise out a lot. So much of the prior games will have little impact in Tevinter, etc. and a lot could simply be dealt with in letters/lore/minor conversations. So, I think it will be manageable, even with 3 games behind them.
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Post by biggydx on Apr 19, 2022 4:14:00 GMT
I don't have an issue with it. I remember playing InFamous 2, and that game also allowed you to make critical choices at both the mid and end-game points in the story. When InFamous: Second Son came around, the developers made the decision to go with the "Good" option that most players choose at the end of InFamous 2, making that the default world state. The modern XCOM series did something similar, where they utilized data showing that, on most players first playthrough, they would end up failing. This high percentage of failures on the first run was used as the basis for XCOM 2, which was a world in which Humanity lost the war and ended up being ruled by the Aliens.
Sometimes making those decisions (as a developers) helps in ensuring continuity, but also making for interesting world states. Would XCOM 2 had been a more compelling game if we had won the war against the aliens in the first game, and now some new alien threat decided to show up for the sequel? Probably not.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2022 4:32:16 GMT
-He is related to BioWare. -BioWare is popular. -It could be indictive of whatever projects he is working on or morbid curiosity. Not anymore he isn’t. The moment he left the company, he shouldn’t make posts like this. It’d be like if someone left Coca-Cola and then posted “How would people feel if Coke changed their flavor?” If his own projects, then he should ask in an universal way rather than BioWare specifically. How about no? Patent absurdity. He was the creator of Dragon Age. His baby. Forgive me Gaider if I botch your pronouns, but I think you're just a gay dude what do I know but I feel like you are a he. If I am wrong, this is not me throwing pronouns around like a boss, I'm just old and David was a he in my memory. Also heavily involved in Mass Effect. He was a Senior Writer at a studio known for, wait for it, writing. His current projects would absolutely be more fitting for discussion, if any of us knew a single one of their names. He was trying to start conversation about a topic that could be relevant to his future projects. Your rage needs more targeting. ... Depends on the scope of the choices. ME3 choices involve all the galaxy and important races. It's impossible to make a sequel without defining canon choices. I'd prefer to bury Milk Way altogether and stay in Andromeda. As for DA4, we're to another country and the studio doesn't have to spend that many resources to adapt each choice. I don't see this as a good analogy. Mass Effect is galactic. Now intergalactic. The DA Setting happens on how many planets? A country is more different than a planet in a different star cluster? <Morpheus bemusement> ... I don't have an issue with it. I remember playing InFamous 2, and that game also allowed you to make critical choices at both the mid and end-game points in the story. When InFamous: Second Son came around, the developers made the decision to go with the "Good" option that most players choose at the end of InFamous 2, making that the default world state. The modern XCOM series did something similar, where they utilized data showing that, on most players first playthrough, they would end up failing. This high percentage of failures on the first run was used as the basis for XCOM 2, which was a world in which Humanity lost the war and ended up being ruled by the Aliens. Sometimes making those decisions (as a developers) helps in ensuring continuity, but also making for interesting world states. Would XCOM 2 had been a more compelling game if we had won the war against the aliens in the first game, and now some new alien threat decided to show up for the sequel? Probably not. Not that it was a great sequel (too damned short, not enough new), but The Force Unleashed 2 could not have happened had they respected the endings of TFU. As with all the things, it is a matter of handling. The Merovingian liked to talk shit with a silk handkerchief - that works for people. I can't say things and live that some of my friends say to a GD standing ovation. If it is done well, with style and reserve, could be good stuff. It is a monkey's paw if you ask me, but somebody might be the first winner.
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