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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2022 18:56:27 GMT
Evolve or die?
I agree with your language in this sentence.
I agree with you that there were many business reasons for DA's creation - very few businesses make a product altruistically.
Beyond that, your point is lost on me. Iteration is evolution, sometimes very incremental, but still an evolution.
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Post by biggydx on May 30, 2022 19:15:21 GMT
I do think the class system is pretty outdated at this point. Being pigeonhold into only using one or two differing types of weapons for an entire playthrough - in this day and age - would very quickly receive a lot of criticism. Especially since, based on DA2 and Inquisition, you can't change your class.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2022 18:01:58 GMT
I do think the class system is pretty outdated at this point. Being pigeonhold into only using one or two differing types of weapons for an entire playthrough - in this day and age - would very quickly receive a lot of criticism. Especially since, based on DA2 and Inquisition, you can't change your class. Counterpoint - Lots of replayability, if you replay for gameplay and not story, is lost when you alter the class distinctions significantly. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but when your bread and butter is branching dialog choices that can't all be seen in one playthrough... This would be shooting themselves in the foot. They've done it before, but hopefully not now. Class systems, when well implemented, add lots to the replayability of a game and the interest in what your squad's individual capabilities are.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 1, 2022 0:09:55 GMT
I do think the class system is pretty outdated at this point. Being pigeonhold into only using one or two differing types of weapons for an entire playthrough - in this day and age - would very quickly receive a lot of criticism. Especially since, based on DA2 and Inquisition, you can't change your class. Counterpoint - Lots of replayability, if you replay for gameplay and not story, is lost when you alter the class distinctions significantly. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but when your bread and butter is branching dialog choices that can't all be seen in one playthrough... This would be shooting themselves in the foot. They've done it before, but hopefully not now. Class systems, when well implemented, add lots to the replayability of a game and the interest in what your squad's individual capabilities are. I think the vast majority of gamers are hard pressed to finish a game once let alone multiple times.
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Post by smilesja on Jun 1, 2022 0:12:03 GMT
Counterpoint - Lots of replayability, if you replay for gameplay and not story, is lost when you alter the class distinctions significantly. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but when your bread and butter is branching dialog choices that can't all be seen in one playthrough... This would be shooting themselves in the foot. They've done it before, but hopefully not now. Class systems, when well implemented, add lots to the replayability of a game and the interest in what your squad's individual capabilities are. I think the vast majority of gamers are hard pressed to finish a game once let alone multiple times. Yup, I remember reading a chart that said that a little over 50 percent of PS gamers finished The Last of Us.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2022 0:21:16 GMT
Counterpoint - Lots of replayability, if you replay for gameplay and not story, is lost when you alter the class distinctions significantly. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but when your bread and butter is branching dialog choices that can't all be seen in one playthrough... This would be shooting themselves in the foot. They've done it before, but hopefully not now. Class systems, when well implemented, add lots to the replayability of a game and the interest in what your squad's individual capabilities are. I think the vast majority of gamers are hard pressed to finish a game once let alone multiple times. Welcome to the BioWare Social Network Forums! Most of us have replayed the BioWare games many times, and several other classics to boot. To see more, maybe all, that the writers had to offer . To me, this is just an acceptance of a lesser standard, and the blame is on a society that doesn't give us enough free time to play our backlog, let alone replays of our favorites. Corporate game makers realize we are exhausted and also now conditioned to have very short attention spans and always focused on the next best thing. This is broken thinking derived from a society that demands constant growth. Craftsmanship endures, great games live forever, and a lot of gamers could benefit/derive pleasure from replaying branching storylines and dialogue. Now get off my lawn :old:
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Post by colfoley on Jun 1, 2022 0:37:05 GMT
I think the vast majority of gamers are hard pressed to finish a game once let alone multiple times. Welcome to the BioWare Social Network Forums! Most of us have replayed the BioWare games many times, and several other classics to boot. To see more, maybe all, that the writers had to offer . To me, this is just an acceptance of a lesser standard, and the blame is on a society that doesn't give us enough free time to play our backlog, let alone replays of our favorites. Corporate game makers realize we are exhausted and also now conditioned to have very short attention spans and always focused on the next best thing. This is broken thinking derived from a society that demands constant growth. Craftsmanship endures, great games live forever, and a lot of gamers could benefit/derive pleasure from replaying branching storylines and dialogue. Now get off my lawn :old: we aren't representative of the gaming public as a whole and its silly to equate us to it. We play games over and over again and finish them then find days on our lives to post about it on a forum...two very niche mind sets. I mean hell take the estimated copies of Inquisition, Andromeda, and probably Anthem and then compare it to the number of forum ites who are here. And then compare it to anyone who is an active and we will come to an understanding of just how unicorn we are.
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Post by smilesja on Jun 1, 2022 1:10:13 GMT
I mean yeah, one thing that people on the internet forget is that we're actually a minority. A VERY VOCAL minority but none the less our interests are pretty niche compared to say the average gamer.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Jun 2, 2022 0:27:46 GMT
Difficulty balance. I find the game too easy and snowbally on Normal but Nightmare is just stat bloat.
DAI got it right with the challenges like no potion restocking etc so I'd like them to continue that and add more interesting mechanics on tougher difficulties (another challenge I liked but was bundled with other stuff)
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Post by cloud9 on Jun 2, 2022 9:08:50 GMT
Combat design needs to be fixed.
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Post by ergates on Jun 10, 2022 12:43:13 GMT
That question cannot be condensed into a universal constant that encompasses all three games, as each game is a radically different experience. I'd need to break it down into each separate game.
DA:O For me Origins was the most near-as-dammit-perfect videogame I have ever played. I'd still maintain it's a strong contender for the best videogame ever made. There are very few things wrong with it, and of those things most have been fixed by the modding community. I'd say that the only lingering issues are a couple of bugs that were never properly patched and a rather clunky and unwieldy crafting system, which is particularly bad in Awakening's efforts to create runes. There are also a handful of largely superfluous or plain useless spells within the Mage tree. That's really all there is, though others may disagree. Other issues such as over-the-top, overly-visible aura and status effects, lack of character/party respec, and dated graphics are all comprehensively fixed by mods.
DA:2 Removal of skills negatively impacts the game, as does limited specialisations. Lack of character customisation in terms of gear, companion armor etc. Lack of variety in enemies. Lack of options for tactical gameplay due to game's habit of having enemies literally parachute in from the sky, which makes party positioning problematic. Main story loses it's way in the third act.
DA:1 Boring, repetitive combat mechanics, made worse by overly-streamlined selection of rather dull spells and skills.
Removal of all but the most basic crowd control and utility spells/abilities, which further adds to the boredom factor of combat.
Ridiculous limitation of eight spells in the action bar, which mostly takes away any of the fun from levelling up, as by mid-game you're already going to have your optimal eight spells/abilities.
No ability to assign character stat points, which further limits customisation and choice.
Removal of customisable tactics.
Clunky, unwieldy user interface.
Game suffers from significant bloat. Far too much busywork, fetch quests, collectibles etc.
Poor pathfinding and navigation. Verticality sounds cool, but endlessly scrabbling up impassable cliffs, jumping puzzles, endless running around trying to work out how to get to the top of a hill to grab a geegaw was not particularly fun for me, in fact it was frustrating.
God-awful Wicked Eyes and Wicked Minds quest, which could have been so much more.
Removal of spirit healing, and removal of out of combat health regen - which limits the ability to explore, and turns the game into a dated Diablo II-style potion spam fest. I didn't find this fun at all.
Respawning enemies made exploration a chore.
Requirement to farm enemies for crafting materials should really only belong in MMOs.
So you can see that none of these issues really tie together between all three games, save perhaps in a general sense of increased 'streamlining' of game mechanics during each iteration.
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Post by azarhal on Jun 10, 2022 13:54:49 GMT
Removal of spirit healing, and removal of out of combat health regen - which limits the ability to explore, and turns the game into a dated Diablo II-style potion spam fest. I didn't find this fun at all. You spammed health potions in DAI as if the game was Diablo II? I barely use potions past getting Skyhold (which I rush to) in DAI, I mostly use them to deal with fall damage caused by pathing bugs and it's mostly the companions who have that issue. I spam potions a lot more in DAO and DAII. Barrier + Guard is the way to go. I actually feels like I've done badly if my health gets damaged once I can craft weapons with "guard on hit" and I always play "in-your-face" builds, even when I'm a mage. Actually, that's something (Barrier/Guard spamming) I hope is removed in the next game. They should be way harder to apply and keep up.
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Post by ergates on Jun 10, 2022 16:34:07 GMT
Removal of spirit healing, and removal of out of combat health regen - which limits the ability to explore, and turns the game into a dated Diablo II-style potion spam fest. I didn't find this fun at all. You spammed health potions in DAI as if the game was Diablo II? I barely use potions past getting Skyhold (which I rush to) in DAI, I mostly use them to deal with fall damage caused by pathing bugs and it's mostly the companions who have that issue. I spam potions a lot more in DAO and DAII. Barrier + Guard is the way to go. I actually feels like I've done badly if my health gets damaged once I can craft weapons with "guard on hit" and I always play "in-your-face" builds, even when I'm a mage. Actually, that's something (Barrier/Guard spamming) I hope is removed in the next game. They should be way harder to apply and keep up. If you're an absolutely incredible player with God-like skills and knowledge of the game, then sure I guess you can play the entire game without using a potion, and likely feel that barriers and guard make the game far too easy. But for players of average skill potions are necessary, especially in the early stages of the game before I have decent gear and mitigation. I find that there are situations when I am required to spam potions, these are usually the early dragon fights and some of the tough DLC bosses, in particular The Librarian and The Guardian in Descent.
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Post by Pounce de León on Jun 10, 2022 16:48:16 GMT
Removal of spirit healing, and removal of out of combat health regen - which limits the ability to explore, and turns the game into a dated Diablo II-style potion spam fest. I didn't find this fun at all. You spammed health potions in DAI as if the game was Diablo II? I barely use potions past getting Skyhold (which I rush to) in DAI, I mostly use them to deal with fall damage caused by pathing bugs and it's mostly the companions who have that issue. I spam potions a lot more in DAO and DAII. Barrier + Guard is the way to go. I actually feels like I've done badly if my health gets damaged once I can craft weapons with "guard on hit" and I always play "in-your-face" builds, even when I'm a mage. Actually, that's something (Barrier/Guard spamming) I hope is removed in the next game. They should be way harder to apply and keep up. I guess we get gud at some point but how would players avoid the companions getting lolstomped. Most the health i used for the AI and guard and barrier solutions were very limited. Kass just wasnt a good tank and Blackwall was eliminated via story. Sometimes I picked AI to cheese it like bow user vs dragon to snipe from distance since any fight up lose would be a wipe.
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Post by azarhal on Jun 10, 2022 18:09:58 GMT
You spammed health potions in DAI as if the game was Diablo II? I barely use potions past getting Skyhold (which I rush to) in DAI, I mostly use them to deal with fall damage caused by pathing bugs and it's mostly the companions who have that issue. I spam potions a lot more in DAO and DAII. Barrier + Guard is the way to go. I actually feels like I've done badly if my health gets damaged once I can craft weapons with "guard on hit" and I always play "in-your-face" builds, even when I'm a mage. Actually, that's something (Barrier/Guard spamming) I hope is removed in the next game. They should be way harder to apply and keep up. If you're an absolutely incredible player with God-like skills and knowledge of the game, then sure I guess you can play the entire game without using a potion, and likely feel that barriers and guard make the game far too easy. But for players of average skill potions are necessary, especially in the early stages of the game before I have decent gear and mitigation. I find that there are situations when I am required to spam potions, these are usually the early dragon fights and some of the tough DLC bosses, in particular The Librarian and The Guardian in Descent. I don't have god-like skills (I do use pause once in a while) and my knowledge of the game isn't god tier either, I learn new things every time I check stuff online...and then forget about it. These days when I replay, I usually don't bother controlling the party members either (I was doing that a lot in my first PT). I do set up some preferred skills and modify the % to use mana/stamina/potions thought, sometimes change the "follow" as well. The only exception is boss fights, because the AI is too stupid to avoid AOEs. There I use pause to tell them where to go. Also, I only play on normal, because I hate HP sponges. Oh and I can be lazy optimizing my characters too, sometimes I just wear/use something because I like the look of it too. But yes, the Hinterland dragon is always a PITA and my companions usually end up drinking near all the potions. I've gotten better at making them avoid the fireballs thought. Stupid AI. But with your " barrier and guard make the game far too easy", I take you aren't bothering using 2/3 of the game damage mitigation features that much which make your complains about guzzling potions makes more sense. Saying that, changing barrier/guard for healing spells wouldn't be any less " make the game far too easy" or less spammy as you'll just be spamming healing spells instead of barrier spells/guard skills. But somehow people are conditioned to find spamming healing spells acceptable...I never understood it. The actual problem is that DAI combat is designed as a damage/mitigation spamming game. It's all about stacking damage and mitigation for both player and enemies. That is what happens when you remove almost all crowd-control/utilities abilities and their counter-abilities...and I don't see this changing. Modern action combat designer do not understand the awesomeness of a Darkness spell...
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Post by ergates on Jun 10, 2022 20:13:33 GMT
If you're an absolutely incredible player with God-like skills and knowledge of the game, then sure I guess you can play the entire game without using a potion, and likely feel that barriers and guard make the game far too easy. But for players of average skill potions are necessary, especially in the early stages of the game before I have decent gear and mitigation. I find that there are situations when I am required to spam potions, these are usually the early dragon fights and some of the tough DLC bosses, in particular The Librarian and The Guardian in Descent. I don't have god-like skills (I do use pause once in a while) and my knowledge of the game isn't god tier either, I learn new things every time I check stuff online...and then forget about it. These days when I replay, I usually don't bother controlling the party members either (I was doing that a lot in my first PT). I do set up some preferred skills and modify the % to use mana/stamina/potions thought, sometimes change the "follow" as well. The only exception is boss fights, because the AI is too stupid to avoid AOEs. There I use pause to tell them where to go. Also, I only play on normal, because I hate HP sponges. Oh and I can be lazy optimizing my characters too, sometimes I just wear/use something because I like the look of it too. But yes, the Hinterland dragon is always a PITA and my companions usually end up drinking near all the potions. I've gotten better at making them avoid the fireballs thought. Stupid AI. But with your " barrier and guard make the game far too easy", I take you aren't bothering using 2/3 of the game damage mitigation features that much which make your complains about guzzling potions makes more sense. Saying that, changing barrier/guard for healing spells wouldn't be any less " make the game far too easy" or less spammy as you'll just be spamming healing spells instead of barrier spells/guard skills. But somehow people are conditioned to find spamming healing spells acceptable...I never understood it. The actual problem is that DAI combat is designed as a damage/mitigation spamming game. It's all about stacking damage and mitigation for both player and enemies. That is what happens when you remove almost all crowd-control/utilities abilities and their counter-abilities...and I don't see this changing. Modern action combat designer do not understand the awesomeness of a Darkness spell... As a matter of fact I typically run a two Mage party, and both Mages have barrier as preferred skill. I also equip all party members with guard-generating armor. This makes the mid-to-late game considerably easier and I don't generally take damage during standard fights. The bosses I mentioned earlier being the exceptions. Perhaps I exaggerated a little for dramatic effect when I described the whole game as 'potion spam'.
But I miss my Spirit Healing spells a great deal.
Spirit healing your party when they take damage is an active action. Something happens, you react. Relying upon Guard is a passive action. It automatically happens when party members hit enemies and requires no player involvement; and to my mind that is nowhere near as interesting. Barriers are kind of passive if you rely upon tactics, though obviously they do have an active element if you choose to manually control them.
My typical combat tactic in the game is to target the nearest enemy, send all party members to attack it, and then activate auto-attack on my Inquisitor, using spells when they become available, and then tab-switch to the next enemy once the first is down. Obviously this isn't an option for boss fiights or dragon fights, but for normal combat I've found it to be the single most efficient and effective tactic by a country mile.
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Post by azarhal on Jun 10, 2022 20:38:55 GMT
My typical combat tactic in the game is to target the nearest enemy, send all party members to attack it, and then activate auto-attack on my Inquisitor, using spells when they become available, and then tab-switch to the next enemy once the first is down. Obviously this isn't an option for boss fiights or dragon fights, but for normal combat I've found it to be the single most efficient and effective tactic by a country mile.
I actually do the opposite (excluding bosses encounters), I tend to split the party among the enemies. That mostly result into a beautiful chaotic mess. And now I want to go try my Necromancer tank build idea to see how messy it can get (it's not just this discussion that made me do that).
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Post by Croatsky on Jun 10, 2022 22:30:18 GMT
That unselected party members are doing nothing.
Like I'd really really love during story quests and major-side quests I can use non-party party members to do side stuff, aka Suicide Mission mechanic. I'm still upset that mechanic was not only never expanded upon since ME2, but got outright dropped in following BW titles.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Jun 11, 2022 1:08:12 GMT
That unselected party members are doing nothing. Like I'd really really love during story quests and major-side quests I can use non-party party members to do side stuff, aka Suicide Mission mechanic. I'm still upset that mechanic was not only never expanded upon since ME2, but got outright dropped in following BW titles. I also liked the bit in dragon age origins during the battle of denerim where you played the party members you didn't take with you for the final fight defending the city. And when the party comes to rescue you at fort drakon. I think bits like that are great. And I like that in swtor the companions you don't take into the field don't just sit around on the ship. You can send them on their own little missions (from which they return with crafting or gift/reputation rewards). And I liked the detail of Mass effect Andromeda that you could send groups on missions or do then as MP yourself. I think it would be lovely if they built on all these things in DAD. Splitting your companions for a big final Mission and getting to play the other group doing their part as well. Sending not an entire organisation of agents on missions like the war table but instead just sending other companions out on missions while you continue to quest with the pc and their active group. Maybe even having the option to choose to play those other missions with those companions sometimes.
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Post by ergates on Jun 11, 2022 17:25:18 GMT
I think the point was to make game balancing easier and the make people play "strategically" but all it did was kill my enjoymen That was the official reason, but frankly I don't believe a word of it. It has all the hallmarks of a cobbled-together corporate BS excuse for a crappy gameplay shortcoming. I think that the eight spell restriction was basically laziness, coupled with rushed development. The thinking was likely: "Console players can only have X spells at once, making the PC version behave differently requires too much time and effort, so tough luck! Everyone can just stick to the console rules'.
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Post by ahglock on Jun 17, 2022 3:21:47 GMT
I think the combat blows. Which given how much combat is in the game makes it a bit of a slog.
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Post by fairdragon on Jun 17, 2022 7:03:42 GMT
I have been trying to rack my brain to answer this question because I think it is one that is worth answering but it felt pretty pathetic to answer 'the stealth mechanics' being what they are...but then I realized that in general it is overall symptomatic of the overall issue with the game play. Lack of player reactivity. Lack of player skill in determining outcomes. Even though Inquisition was far more forgiving and a much bigger improvement on the formula which started in Origins Archers still 'locked on' to their targets and you could just hold down the button and engage them. Now this was fun in its own way so I'm not sure I will mind if they don't go full action...but I do prefer the combat systems which give the player more to do. Give them the ability to aim or miss on their own. Give us the ability instead of lore breakingly dissapear in a puff of smoke just have us use shadows and subterfuge. Instead of having abilities let us be able to dodge or block as a baseline. Yes melee will probably remain untoched and I could see magic users being more guided but in general still, I want you to feel more involved in the gameplay. Which, following on from Vahalla, the more you give the player to do and keep track of the funner it is. I know there are some who want that, but how should this be implemented in a game that relies on group combat? turn based combat?
And i would not be happy about a game where i have to quickly press button after button. So i dissagree with you.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 17, 2022 7:13:20 GMT
I have been trying to rack my brain to answer this question because I think it is one that is worth answering but it felt pretty pathetic to answer 'the stealth mechanics' being what they are...but then I realized that in general it is overall symptomatic of the overall issue with the game play. Lack of player reactivity. Lack of player skill in determining outcomes. Even though Inquisition was far more forgiving and a much bigger improvement on the formula which started in Origins Archers still 'locked on' to their targets and you could just hold down the button and engage them. Now this was fun in its own way so I'm not sure I will mind if they don't go full action...but I do prefer the combat systems which give the player more to do. Give them the ability to aim or miss on their own. Give us the ability instead of lore breakingly dissapear in a puff of smoke just have us use shadows and subterfuge. Instead of having abilities let us be able to dodge or block as a baseline. Yes melee will probably remain untoched and I could see magic users being more guided but in general still, I want you to feel more involved in the gameplay. Which, following on from Vahalla, the more you give the player to do and keep track of the funner it is. I know there are some who want that, but how should this be implemented in a game that relies on group combat? turn based combat?
And i would not be happy about a game where i have to quickly press button after button. So i dissagree with you.
Dragon Age has never been turn based in the first place. Origins was kind of a quasi have your cake and eat it to certain way of doing things but it wasn't actually turned based. As to the disagreement at hand though it will work pretty much like how Mass Effect or Ghost Recon works or the Witcher or any other game. Yes I know there really isn't a good counter example out there but I have definitley seen AI handle action combat on their own doing their own thing. Hell, actually now that I am thinking about it Inquisition was really most of the way there in the first place. I remember seeing Cassandra dodge and roll with the best of them. The only difference between that and what I am proposing is that those arent abilities.
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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate
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Post by fairdragon on Jun 17, 2022 8:05:49 GMT
Classes: witchcocktor, you can't drop a statement like that and not add at least some analysis or suggestions. Not that I disagree with you, but that's a pretty broad statement that begs for something more. in my own analysis, the current class structure pushes a couple of possible roles on each class with some spice added by specializations later. What is it you would prefer? Classes that start more as deepened specializations (i.e. start as a Templar with a bigger skill tree)? Or are you more in favor of a more classless system where many powers/abilities can be chosen to fit the role (for example a rogue that can pickup some particular spells that might be handy in stealth)? Or maybe something completely different? I care less about what weapons they can and cannot use and more about expanding the choices of roles so warrior types could slot into support, or mages could DPS, or rogues could tank, but all with a sensible build structure. I have a suggestion, but I don't know if it can be implemented. Owlcats Pathfinder gave me the idea. what if every class has its own tree. So one for Mage one for warrior and one for rough, which then splits into the specializations. But you can only take one branch of specialization. Importantly, when choosing a skill in the tree, you choose only one skill area and can then choose one skill from several. So warriors and rough could share skills.
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Dec 12, 2024 10:56:11 GMT
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fairdragon
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Jul 30, 2020 17:14:13 GMT
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fairdragon
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate
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Post by fairdragon on Jun 17, 2022 8:54:52 GMT
I do agree with Catcher on this point. While maybe one could argue they took too much meat off the bone in Inquisition I still found the system overall much preferable to that of the previous two games. On that sort of high level system we shouldn't be a AI character's mommies or daddies telling them when and how to do every little thing, these are supposedly seasoned warriors that should know how to use combat on their own volition. An analogy, if I am in command of a modern military unit and I tell someone to 'hold that bridge' then they should know whether or not they need to use their LMG for the task or a pistol. In other words I want to be able to tell my characters what to do but they should be able to determine how to do it with the resources, abilities, and programming they have at their disposal. Which Andromeda's system seemed to work in this regard as it seems the crew knew intuitively what they had to do to stick within their assigned combat roles and mesh with what I was trying to do. Hopefully DA 4 continues to expand on those options. + Dragon Age has never been turn based in the first place. Origins was kind of a quasi have your cake and eat it to certain way of doing things but it wasn't actually turned based. As to the disagreement at hand though it will work pretty much like how Mass Effect or Ghost Recon works or the Witcher or any other game. Yes I know there really isn't a good counter example out there but I have definitley seen AI handle action combat on their own doing their own thing. Hell, actually now that I am thinking about it Inquisition was really most of the way there in the first place. I remember seeing Cassandra dodge and roll with the best of them. The only difference between that and what I am proposing is that those arent abilities. Yes it was never turn based, but it was allways tactical game. And DAI feels to some like they took that away. And the most tactical game are turn base for a reason. If they have problem with the tactically manage the group part, they should make a new game under a new name not change dragen age to something else. For me Dragen age is more like Baldur's gate and not like the witcher.
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