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Post by Absafraginlootly on Jun 12, 2022 3:40:03 GMT
With Mythal's history of occupying another's body and making copies of herself it seems safe to say that some manifestation of her will be in future games. Which means her answer to her betrayal may still be yet to come.
How do you think she'll turn up and what do you think her plan is?
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Post by xerrai on Jun 12, 2022 5:38:54 GMT
Really hard to say with Flemeth. She is arguably one of the more enigmatic characters in the series, despite her obvious interest in preserving ancient things. The only thing I am fairly certain of is her NOT being completely dead (or as dead as she can be). Given her rather passionate dialogue on revenge and betrayal in DAI, I can't see her bowing out when Solas did what he did. I think she wants to see her revenge through herself, and set backup plans accordingly.
So I can see her taking the form of anything from the Well Drinker, another Witch of the Wilds, a random revenge-fueled companion, Solas, or even as the spirit that arose from the Well. But as for which is the most likely? I'm going to say either the Well Drinker or Morrigan. But I'm not too sure how long she'll stick around in either case. For Morrigan in particular, I am beginning to think Flemeth may well want her to be the 'inheritor' for more than just (or without) Mythal's wisp.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 12, 2022 8:57:17 GMT
I've voted for Morrigan but the Well drinker if different will then fall under her control. I hope it ends up having more significance than simply being able to read a few ancient writings and talking with the spirit in Trespasser. Also, her words were ambiguous but I do wonder if effectively Flemeth cancelled the geas before she left. I assume Mythal would have the power to do this. So you are left with the knowledge but not the compulsion to serve. That would neatly side step any problems created by the choice of drinker.
However, considering in DA2 she specifically asks why she can't be in more than one place at the same time, I do wonder if it could be a case of having multiple hosts, with her activating whichever is the most appropriate to her situation. After all, supposing Hawke had never come through on their promise with the amulet. Would that have meant Mythal was forever trapped within it? I don't think so. Flemeth may be but not Mythal.
As you point out, there was a piece of Mythal still attached to the Well after the drinker had drained it, which confronted Corypheus before leaving and closing off the eluvian. Where did that go? Then there was whatever Flemeth placed in the eluvian before her meeting with Solas. Although Flemeth maintained that she and Mythal were one being, they were originally two souls. The Old God was part of Kieran and yet able to leave with Kieran left alive and seemingly functioning normally. In fact, if Flemeth's promise was true, then he would likely have reverted to the state of normal Kieran, without all the nightmares and baggage of memories that were not his own. So what if some of the pieces are Mythal and others are Flemeth? So Mythal went to Solas but Flemeth goes to Morrigan. Flemeth's spirit would still have access to all the knowledge she acquired over her long life and from Mythal but not the power of the ancient being that Mythal was. Still knowledge can be power.
OGB Kieran definitely said that Morrigan was to be the inheritor but the inheritor of what?
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Post by wright1978 on Jun 12, 2022 10:18:34 GMT
I'd prefer it to be the well drinker if it happens, so the choice has weight. Obviously that adds complexity in regards the inquisitor. If they aren't planning to use them as a visible NPC character then i've voted for Yavana.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 12, 2022 10:40:34 GMT
Now this is a tough one for me because on the one hand I do think it could be Solas... but I also feel like it was setting it up to be Morrigan and that would be my preffered option really so I went with that. The million ton elephant in the room is if Claudia Black comes back to voice her and what they can do as far as the plan but hey another way DA is aping Babylon 5 is with built in contingincies.
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Post by wright1978 on Jun 12, 2022 10:50:42 GMT
Now this is a tough one for me because on the one hand I do think it could be Solas... but I also feel like it was setting it up to be Morrigan and that would be my preffered option really so I went with that. The million ton elephant in the room is if Claudia Black comes backT to voice her and what they can do as far as the plan but hey another way DA is aping Babylon 5 is with built in contingincies. Why wouldn't Claudia come back?
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Post by colfoley on Jun 12, 2022 10:51:56 GMT
Now this is a tough one for me because on the one hand I do think it could be Solas... but I also feel like it was setting it up to be Morrigan and that would be my preffered option really so I went with that. The million ton elephant in the room is if Claudia Black comes backT to voice her and what they can do as far as the plan but hey another way DA is aping Babylon 5 is with built in contingincies. Why wouldn't Claudia come back? Its the biggest hinderance I can see to this theory. Maybe lack of interest. Money. Time. Who knows.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 13, 2022 7:43:47 GMT
Its the biggest hinderance I can see to this theory. Maybe lack of interest. Money. Time. Who knows. Why would this be a problem though? It wouldn't be the first time they have changed the character's VA. Look at Anders. He changed from Awakening to DA2 and yet they managed to get the new VA similar enough that it wasn't that noticeable, even with such a short time period. The slight difference could also be explained by having absorbed Justice, so with if Morrigan sounded a bit different from having absorbed Flemeth/Mythal, there you go. I hope they don't quietly forget about everything that was hinted at with Morrigan. Ditto the Well of Sorrows. It had so little real significance in DAI/Trespasser that I can't believe that was it. Also, why was Solas so interested in what we would do with the knowledge? Clearly, he meant, after we had dealt with Corypheus. If Morrigan drank, I wanted to say "why don't you ask her", since it was obvious I would have no control over what happened to it if she chose not to involve me. He also seemed to approve if the Inquisitor indicated they would be the sole arbiter of what was done with it. Was that truly because he was mistrustful of a group controlling such power or because a single person is easier to manipulate? If Flemeth/Mythal didn't remove the geas before she died, then knowing where Mythal currently resides is going to be important to the future use of such knowledge. "Everything you do from now on, whether you know it or not, will be for her." The other important question would be: does Mythal support Solas' plan in its entirety or merely the removing of the Veil part? Mythal wanted a reckoning "to shake the very heavenes" and dropping the Veil would certainly do that. Solas also had "plans" for dealing with the Evanuris. Was Mythal always part of those plans? If so, then absorbing her power was probably always something he intended. This seems likely since Flemeth was expecting him. Was this only because the plan had altered, owing to the orb being broken, or was the original plan to meet her with orb in hand? So whilst he needed to find a new source of power, absorbing some aspect of Mythal was not an alternative to the orb but simply revising the order in which he did things. Flemeth knew this and that is why she went along with it, but had her own contingency plan involving whatever she put into the eluvian. I fairly certain that is going to be important in the future.
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Post by fairdragon on Jun 13, 2022 10:37:04 GMT
Its the biggest hinderance I can see to this theory. Maybe lack of interest. Money. Time. Who knows. Why would this be a problem though? It wouldn't be the first time they have changed the character's VA. Look at Anders. He changed from Awakening to DA2 and yet they managed to get the new VA similar enough that it wasn't that noticeable, even with such a short time period. The slight difference could also be explained by having absorbed Justice, so with if Morrigan sounded a bit different from having absorbed Flemeth/Mythal, there you go. I hope they don't quietly forget about everything that was hinted at with Morrigan. Ditto the Well of Sorrows. It had so little real significance in DAI/Trespasser that I can't believe that was it. Also, why was Solas so interested in what we would do with the knowledge? Clearly, he meant, after we had dealt with Corypheus. If Morrigan drank, I wanted to say "why don't you ask her", since it was obvious I would have no control over what happened to it if she chose not to involve me. He also seemed to approve if the Inquisitor indicated they would be the sole arbiter of what was done with it. Was that truly because he was mistrustful of a group controlling such power or because a single person is easier to manipulate? If Flemeth/Mythal didn't remove the geas before she died, then knowing where Mythal currently resides is going to be important to the future use of such knowledge. "Everything you do from now on, whether you know it or not, will be for her." The other important question would be: does Mythal support Solas' plan in its entirety or merely the removing of the Veil part? Mythal wanted a reckoning "to shake the very heavenes" and dropping the Veil would certainly do that. Solas also had "plans" for dealing with the Evanuris. Was Mythal always part of those plans? If so, then absorbing her power was probably always something he intended. This seems likely since Flemeth was expecting him. Was this only because the plan had altered, owing to the orb being broken, or was the original plan to meet her with orb in hand? So whilst he needed to find a new source of power, absorbing some aspect of Mythal was not an alternative to the orb but simply revising the order in which he did things. Flemeth knew this and that is why she went along with it, but had her own contingency plan involving whatever she put into the eluvian. I fairly certain that is going to be important in the future. I think it was the alternative plan, because Solas say sorry. If it would have been the plan all along, why say sorry. And i think mythal know of it because she know so many things.
What I find much more interesting is her reaction to him. Why should she be sorry, what does she know and don't tell solas.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 13, 2022 11:39:41 GMT
Its the biggest hinderance I can see to this theory. Maybe lack of interest. Money. Time. Who knows. Why would this be a problem though? It wouldn't be the first time they have changed the character's VA. Look at Anders. He changed from Awakening to DA2 and yet they managed to get the new VA similar enough that it wasn't that noticeable, even with such a short time period. The slight difference could also be explained by having absorbed Justice, so with if Morrigan sounded a bit different from having absorbed Flemeth/Mythal, there you go. I hope they don't quietly forget about everything that was hinted at with Morrigan. Ditto the Well of Sorrows. It had so little real significance in DAI/Trespasser that I can't believe that was it. Also, why was Solas so interested in what we would do with the knowledge? Clearly, he meant, after we had dealt with Corypheus. If Morrigan drank, I wanted to say "why don't you ask her", since it was obvious I would have no control over what happened to it if she chose not to involve me. He also seemed to approve if the Inquisitor indicated they would be the sole arbiter of what was done with it. Was that truly because he was mistrustful of a group controlling such power or because a single person is easier to manipulate? If Flemeth/Mythal didn't remove the geas before she died, then knowing where Mythal currently resides is going to be important to the future use of such knowledge. "Everything you do from now on, whether you know it or not, will be for her." The other important question would be: does Mythal support Solas' plan in its entirety or merely the removing of the Veil part? Mythal wanted a reckoning "to shake the very heavenes" and dropping the Veil would certainly do that. Solas also had "plans" for dealing with the Evanuris. Was Mythal always part of those plans? If so, then absorbing her power was probably always something he intended. This seems likely since Flemeth was expecting him. Was this only because the plan had altered, owing to the orb being broken, or was the original plan to meet her with orb in hand? So whilst he needed to find a new source of power, absorbing some aspect of Mythal was not an alternative to the orb but simply revising the order in which he did things. Flemeth knew this and that is why she went along with it, but had her own contingency plan involving whatever she put into the eluvian. I fairly certain that is going to be important in the future. Anders might be the proof of concept on why this might be a problem. Though ironically he did not bother me...but it does occur to me that a lot of people had issues with the differences in the character and that could have come down to the perception of differences between the voice actors. But since Claudia Black is my second favorite actress of all time and since she just is Morrigan and her voice it is going to be hella hard to imagine anyone else being able to replace her. Sure its possible but anyone else stepping into those shoes has a very high bar to rise to.
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Post by Iddy on Jun 13, 2022 11:44:28 GMT
I just want it to be Morrigan so she can continue to be tortured by the consequences of her greed.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 13, 2022 18:03:31 GMT
But since Claudia Black is my second favorite actress of all time and since she just is Morrigan and her voice it is going to be hella hard to imagine anyone else being able to replace her. Sure its possible but anyone else stepping into those shoes has a very high bar to rise to. Hopefully, it won't come to that. I'm sure she would be willing to voice Morrigan again and would try to fit it into her schedule if she possibly can. After all, it is only likely to be a smallish section, probably even less than in DAI. The only small misgiving I have is the fact that we have gone from Morrigan as narrator of the epilogue in DAI (after also featuring in the original trailer) to Varric voicing the trailer in 2020. Now may be this is because they wish to keep us guessing about Morrigan's future involvement but for consistency they should have gone with Morrigan as this would have connected it back to that original trailer in 2013. Incidentally, I still believe that showed the Veil actually ripping open, not just the hole that Corypheus punched in it.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Jun 13, 2022 23:59:09 GMT
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Post by kalreegar on Jun 14, 2022 15:03:52 GMT
Mythal was killed. A fragment of her survived. It has gone through the ages from body to body. Flemeth the host was killed (by the Warden or the Darkspawn) but she still managed to preserve a fragment of herself via Hawke/Sundermount ritual. The host was killed and the fragment was absorbed by Solas.
I would say that's enough.
There has to be a limit; settings where death becomes an unserious thing, IMO invariably lose charm and seriousness.
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Post by Pounce de León on Jun 14, 2022 15:55:51 GMT
No idea. I read she already died a couple times so it's probably some form of Bioware perpetual story recycling.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 14, 2022 18:00:49 GMT
There has to be a limit; settings where death becomes an unserious thing, IMO invariably lose charm and seriousness. You would think so, wouldn't you? Unsurprisingly, most of us veteran players tend not to assume anyone is permanently dead these days until someone from the writing team confirms it and even then you feel you can never be sure. Let's face it, when we ask Solas why he didn't just kill the Evanuris, he says that he couldn't be sure they would remain dead. Well he should know. I think the likelihood of remaining dead rises in inverse proportion to your importance in the story. It's a bit like the old Star Trek episodes. If you are just some random unnamed squad member, chances are you will kick the bucket if you are part of the landing party, if you have a name, your life expectancy is a little higher and if you are a long standing cast member then the risk to you is negligible. Even villains seem to be able to work this loop hole with regard to death in Thedas. Thus, the best bet to render them harmless is to consign them to wherever Solas sent the Evanuris and then never let them out again. For some reason, he has changed his mind on this; I can't wait to see what his "plans" for them turn out to be, should he be successful in dropping the Veil. (heavy sarcasm). Remember Solas, in Thedas death is never an end, just new beginning.
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Post by kalreegar on Jun 14, 2022 19:45:02 GMT
There has to be a limit; settings where death becomes an unserious thing, IMO invariably lose charm and seriousness. You would think so, wouldn't you? Unsurprisingly, most of us veteran players tend not to assume anyone is permanently dead these days until someone from the writing team confirms it and even then you feel you can never be sure. Let's face it, when we ask Solas why he didn't just kill the Evanuris, he says that he couldn't be sure they would remain dead. Well he should know. I think the likelihood of remaining dead rises in inverse proportion to your importance in the story. It's a bit like the old Star Trek episodes. If you are just some random unnamed squad member, chances are you will kick the bucket if you are part of the landing party, if you have a name, your life expectancy is a little higher and if you are a long standing cast member then the risk to you is negligible. Even villains seem to be able to work this loop hole with regard to death in Thedas. Thus, the best bet to render them harmless is to consign them to wherever Solas sent the Evanuris and then never let them out again. For some reason, he has changed his mind on this; I can't wait to see what his "plans" for them turn out to be, should he be successful in dropping the Veil. (heavy sarcasm). Remember Solas, in Thedas death is never an end, just new beginning. "Somehow Palpatine returned"
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Post by Fredward on Jun 15, 2022 7:38:21 GMT
The contrast in how the two elven gods have been surviving has been pretty interesting. Solas lying in wait to make a big return vs Flemeth being all sneaky and shit but also very much more active, giving history nudges and the occasional shove. Overall, I'd be giving Flemeth the trickery crown. Solas' exit from the gate has very much been a reclamation of power whereas Flemeth's approach has been knowing when to divest it in favor of influence. Her speech to Morrigan about it not being forced also implies that she thinks she has very good, compelling reasons and that, whoever the vessel is, they tend to be convinced. So Solas might have a Mythal voice in his head but he simply chooses to ignore it, probably easier said than done.
Does Solas know of Mythal doing this though? Breaking herself up in bits? He might know of the Well but if he assumed Mythal is a singular unit, like he seems to be, he might think the Well is now largely a non-issue. Ie he absorbed Mythal thus whoever drank from it is under his influence, not hers. But she has backups, whatever she left in the Eluvian, Morrigan, potential other daughters, potential other items like the amulet etc. Maybe even Morrigan's kid.
Anyway, Morrigan makes the most thematic sense EXCEPT a Solasmancer, I think. Especially a Solasmancer who wants to stab Solas repeatedly in the head area.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 15, 2022 10:04:21 GMT
The contrast in how the two elven gods have been surviving has been pretty interesting. Solas lying in wait to make a big return vs Flemeth being all sneaky and shit but also very much more active, giving history nudges and the occasional shove. Overall, I'd be giving Flemeth the trickery crown. It does appear that way but may be it always was. Perhaps it suited her to let everyone else believe that Fen'Harel was the devious one, so they blame him for every dodgy thing that happens but in reality she was the brains behind it. Then the other Evanuris discovered the truth and dealt with her instead. However, despite the number of things that do seem to have gone wrong with his plans, you have to admit that tricking 7 Creators and at least 3 Forgotten Ones into his trap took some ingenuity. May be that was a case of them underestimating him rather than simply trusting him as the Dalish legend suggests. There is also a difference in the way Solas and Mythal view modern elves, assuming that Flemeth did speak with one mind with her on board ancient being. Solas thinks along similar lines to Abelas; that the modern elves are mere shadows of what they should be and not really elves until he restores their link to the Fade. If Lavellan accuses him of not caring enough about the plight of the elves, he gets very shirty and dismissive of being able to do anything in the present (hardly surprising now we know his true intentions). By contrast Mythal seems to regard them in a more positive light. Flemeth seemed genuine enough when she tells Lavellan that "you do the People proud" and when admonished for not doing more for the elves, she is at least gracious enough to suggest the do not know what they are asking of her. Now Solas admits that Mythal genuinely cared for her people and she did give help as Asha'Bellanar, even if she required something in return (which may have been true of Mythal in the old days). I just can't help thinking that Mythal is working to her own agenda and that doesn't necessarily align with what Solas intends.
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Post by xerrai on Jun 16, 2022 2:40:31 GMT
You would think so, wouldn't you? Unsurprisingly, most of us veteran players tend not to assume anyone is permanently dead these days until someone from the writing team confirms it and even then you feel you can never be sure. Let's face it, when we ask Solas why he didn't just kill the Evanuris, he says that he couldn't be sure they would remain dead. Well he should know. [...] "Somehow Palpatine returned" "Somehow Leliana returned" Hopefully they learned their lesson and try not to bring back characters too often. At least Flemeth/Mythal comes with an excuse built in that is more believable than the "lyrium spirit" excuse they dredged up for Leliana (and it only took them until Trespasser!).
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on Jun 21, 2022 12:26:28 GMT
Couldn't they just use Kieran instead? It would be way to just brute force him into the story as a party member if DA does take place 20 years after origins.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 21, 2022 13:26:29 GMT
Couldn't they just use Kieran instead? It would be way to just brute force him into the story as a party member if DA does take place 20 years after origins. He doesn't exist at all in some world states and is now just a regular young man in the others, even though he had a different childhood experience depending on whether he was the OGB or not. The last part could be overlooked but not the former. It would require more than just a convenient resurrection by a spirit to explain his existence. So, whilst he might appear in a cameo role alongside Morrigan, or even in his own optional side-quest, he cannot be a companion, which would require his existence in every world state.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by abedsbrother on Jun 26, 2022 15:58:41 GMT
Morrigan. Her drinking from the well will be declared canon so Bioware can have an excuse for bringing her back yet again.
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Post by fylimar on Jun 29, 2022 8:38:14 GMT
I'm pretty sure, it's stupid Morrigan yet again. I just hope, we can kill her for good this time. I would prefer, if Flemeth would be the one though and maybe that is not that far fetched, given how she escaped before.
I don't think, I can stand Morrigan and Solas in the same game again. I might loose my mind a bit...
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Apr 25, 2024 17:03:19 GMT
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Apr 25, 2024 17:03:19 GMT
January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2022 0:29:52 GMT
Morrigan. Her drinking from the well will be declared canon so Bioware can have an excuse for bringing her back yet again. She is a popular character, voiced by an in-demand actress. I'm not sure "excuse" is the word you're looking for here. If your complaint is about contrived storylines surrounding the character, I am not arguing that. I just feel like if she is available and willing to play the character again, BioWare would need an excuse not to use her.
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