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Post by biggydx on Jul 25, 2022 18:08:52 GMT
What I mean by the topic title is this: Do WRPGs need to have higher quality storytelling in order to reach comparable favorability with that of a typical JRPG?
I think about how story elements and quests are critiqued in most WRPG's, there's a sizable emphasis on good narrative presentation, complexity, and/or impactful player decision making. While this isn't to say you couldn't achieve the same in a JRPG, or that players wouldn't want something similar, I find that JRPGs have more forgiving attitudes if they choose to utilize fetch quests more often. That, or the typical "Go here, kill this".
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Post by Hawke on Jul 25, 2022 19:21:23 GMT
The genres are too different to compare. As you've said, JRPGs are typically linear grindfests, which do not allow any player's agency beyond how to kill another humanoid cactus faster. But there are flashy cut-scenes and "fan-service". CRPGs, on the other hand, provide several options for resolving quests, character building, and require actual roleplay (though, roll-play is still possible).
I think, JRPGs should not have the "RP" part in them (otherwise, Half-Life is an RPG too and we roleplay Gordon Freeman). When considered as adventure games, the cognitive dissonance is not that strong.
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Post by cyberpunker on Jul 29, 2022 4:27:22 GMT
JRPGs have some of the best stories out there. Look at the Final Fantasy series and Chrono Trigger/Chrono Cross series.
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Post by Jeremiah12LGeek on Jul 31, 2022 0:56:41 GMT
Different conventions, but I don't think either is held to a particularly high standard.
Nier Automata and Nier (Replicant) are at a fairly rare high standard for JRPGS, Mass Effect series is of a fairly rare high standard for WRPGs. For the most part, average examples of the two genres would be of significantly lower quality than either of those.
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Post by talyn82 on Jul 31, 2022 1:56:27 GMT
When I was in my teens I was mainly a console player so I played and enjoyed a lot jrpg's. Then when I got into my twenties I bought a PC and played Morrowind. Loved that game and still do. Then I played other wrpg's like the KOTOR games and Planescape: Torment enjoyed them all. Now I am in my early forties and can't stand jrpg's. I just can't identify with the main protagonists. They usually follow the same formula. Emo teen whose in high school has a hot female best friend who is in love with him, but since he's suppose to be cool and brooding he is oblivious to her. The last Jrpg I played was the Final Fantasy VII Remake on PC, since in my teens I was a fan of the original. But Cloud follows the formula I posted above. Dark brooding hero with hot female best friend is oblivious to her and the world. I played until I got to the subway tracks section, got lost and never bothered to look up the solution. But games like the Witcher 3, VTMB, and the Mass Effect series I can play over and over. Oh yeah another problem I have with jrpg's is why are your companions so cheery? The world is dying and they are so happy. That's why I love wrpg's usually you have a choice to be good or evil in jrpg's you're always the good guy/girl.
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Post by smilesja on Jul 31, 2022 1:59:01 GMT
JRPGs feature some of the best stories in gaming. Just because it doesn't fit your standard "RPG" doesn't mean you should dismiss it. Final Fantasy 7 remake had me hooked with its characters and combat as well as the Kingdom Hearts series.
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Post by talyn82 on Jul 31, 2022 2:36:24 GMT
JRPGs feature some of the best stories in gaming. Just because it doesn't fit your standard "RPG" doesn't mean you should dismiss it. Final Fantasy 7 remake had me hooked with its characters and combat as well as the Kingdom Hearts series. I agree like I said before I grew up with them as a kid and teen in the 80's and 90's. I've played some of the best the genre had to offer on the old NES, SNES, Sega Genesis, Sega Dreamcast, and Sony Playstation I and II. I don't remember much of the stories of the earlier titles, but I do remember loving FFVII, FFX, Skies over Arcadia, and Kingdom Hearts 1. I remember those titles more because I played them before switching to PC. It's just that I look at the jrpg games on Steam and GOG.com and they all seem to follow the same formula. WRPG's are not innocent of this either. Many wrpg's follow the same old amnesia trope as I first encountered in Planescape: Torment.
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Post by ALTBOULI on Aug 1, 2022 4:43:05 GMT
Different conventions, but I don't think either is held to a particularly high standard. Nier Automata and Nier (Replicant) are at a fairly rare high standard for JRPGS, Mass Effect series is of a fairly rare high standard for WRPGs. For the most part, average examples of the two genres would be of significantly lower quality than either of those. This in a nutshell, you can find some real gems in either genre but that is in a sea of generally mediocre games. The one thing I will say is a lot of modern western games seem to have an overtly political tone to them which is often a detriment to immersion. Unfortunately a large part of this is due to pressure from elements of the media which attacks games or devs not considerd inclusive enough. For example I saw a lot of nonsense about Ghost of Tsushima being cultural appropriation, being sexist (because the majority of the main characters were male) etc. Was Ghost of Tsushima accurate to the history of the region at the time? No probably not but it was a fun immersive game and should not have been attacked by some game journalists simply because it wasn't political/inclusive enough for them.
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Post by General Mahad on Aug 1, 2022 16:34:09 GMT
Different conventions, but I don't think either is held to a particularly high standard. Nier Automata and Nier (Replicant) are at a fairly rare high standard for JRPGS, Mass Effect series is of a fairly rare high standard for WRPGs. For the most part, average examples of the two genres would be of significantly lower quality than either of those. This in a nutshell, you can find some real gems in either genre but that is in a sea of generally mediocre games. The one thing I will say is a lot of modern western games seem to have an overtly political tone to them which is often a detriment to immersion. Unfortunately a large part of this is due to pressure from elements of the media which attacks games or devs not considerd inclusive enough. For example I saw a lot of nonsense about Ghost of Tsushima being cultural appropriation, being sexist (because the majority of the main characters were male) etc. Was Ghost of Tsushima accurate to the history of the region at the time? No probably not but it was a fun immersive game and should not have been attacked by some game journalists simply because it wasn't political/inclusive enough for them. Which is insane because the game was so well received by the Japanese that they made two of the developers tourism ambassadors to the actual Island. The media, journalists and some game developers believe they can only approach video game topics from their western viewpoint. Any other viewpoint, even from the cultures they supposedly support, is invalid. Regarding WRPG vs. JRPGs, one uses Hollywood movie cliches and the other uses anime cliches. The former thinks it’s an art form and the latter knows it’s a video game.
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Post by Pounce de León on Aug 1, 2022 16:36:28 GMT
I'm not sure what JRPG is - I have never played any console games. From what Steam offers it looks like visual novel?
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Post by General Mahad on Aug 1, 2022 16:49:58 GMT
I'm not sure what JRPG is - I have never played any console games. From what Steam offers it looks like visual novel? It’s more games like Persona, Final Fantasy, Xenoblade, Nier, Monster Hunter, and Yakuza 7.
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Post by Pounce de León on Aug 1, 2022 17:06:31 GMT
I'm not sure what JRPG is - I have never played any console games. From what Steam offers it looks like visual novel? It’s more games like Persona, Final Fantasy, Xenoblade, Nier, Monster Hunter, and Yakuza 7. I think they're just gor younger audience maybe.
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Post by smilesja on Aug 1, 2022 17:31:01 GMT
This in a nutshell, you can find some real gems in either genre but that is in a sea of generally mediocre games. The one thing I will say is a lot of modern western games seem to have an overtly political tone to them which is often a detriment to immersion. Unfortunately a large part of this is due to pressure from elements of the media which attacks games or devs not considerd inclusive enough. For example I saw a lot of nonsense about Ghost of Tsushima being cultural appropriation, being sexist (because the majority of the main characters were male) etc. Was Ghost of Tsushima accurate to the history of the region at the time? No probably not but it was a fun immersive game and should not have been attacked by some game journalists simply because it wasn't political/inclusive enough for them. The media, journalists and some game developers believe they can only approach video game topics from their western viewpoint. Any other viewpoint, even from the cultures they supposedly support, is invalid. Which is pretty racist when you stop to think about it. The games journalists and developers whether they're aware or not are enacting a western centric viewpoint of the world where their morals and beliefs are more valid than the others. It's arrogant and condescending.
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Post by ALTBOULI on Aug 1, 2022 20:01:20 GMT
The media, journalists and some game developers believe they can only approach video game topics from their western viewpoint. Any other viewpoint, even from the cultures they supposedly support, is invalid. Which is pretty racist when you stop to think about it. The games journalists and developers whether they're aware or not are enacting a western centric viewpoint of the world where their morals and beliefs are more valid than the others. It's arrogant and condescending. Yup, and to you're point its not just journalists but also devs. I remember reading that the Mass Effect Andormeda devs intentionally made their female characters more ugly than the models they were based off of because they felt the characters would not be inclusive enough otherwise, strangely this didn't apply to the mail characters...I'm not sure how accurate this story is (it was reported by a few articles at the time of release) but given some of the decisions I have seen from Bioware in recent times I wouldn't put it past them.
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Post by ALTBOULI on Aug 1, 2022 22:25:38 GMT
Which is pretty racist when you stop to think about it. The games journalists and developers whether they're aware or not are enacting a western centric viewpoint of the world where their morals and beliefs are more valid than the others. It's arrogant and condescending. Yup, and to you're point its not just journalists but also devs. I remember reading that the Mass Effect Andormeda devs intentionally made their female characters more ugly than the models they were based off of because they felt the characters would not be inclusive enough otherwise, strangely this didn't apply to the mail characters...I'm not sure how accurate this story is (it was reported by a few articles at the time of release) but given some of the decisions I have seen from Bioware in recent times I wouldn't put it past them. www.google.com/amp/s/kotaku.com/stray-game-annapurna-interactive-cat-cyberpunk-1849328820/ampApparently stray (a story about a lost cat trying to make its way back to its family) is racist according to a kotaku journalist...Smh
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Post by General Mahad on Aug 1, 2022 22:42:35 GMT
It’s more games like Persona, Final Fantasy, Xenoblade, Nier, Monster Hunter, and Yakuza 7. I think they're just gor younger audience maybe. To be fair, some of these games have been around since the mid 1990s or even earlier like Final Fantasy.
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Post by Pounce de León on Aug 2, 2022 6:00:15 GMT
I think they're just gor younger audience maybe. To be fair, some of these games have been around since the mid 1990s or even earlier like Final Fantasy. FF started out on console, I think.
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Post by Hawke on Aug 2, 2022 6:21:33 GMT
The media, journalists and some game developers believe they can only approach video game topics from their western viewpoint. Any other viewpoint, even from the cultures they supposedly support, is invalid. Which is pretty racist when you stop to think about it. The games journalists and developers whether they're aware or not are enacting a western centric viewpoint of the world where their morals and beliefs are more valid than the others. It's arrogant and condescending. I generally prefer my games to be free of sexualised minors (dead minors are okay, unironically), sexism (for all genders), and homo-/transphobia. All of these often (not always*) are featured in JRPGs.
I might be culturally insensitive, of course.
*I think one of the Tales of games featured a gay couple as main characters? The armour (for all characters) still was immersion-breaking. I also heard something good things about the Yakuza series (haven't played).
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Post by smilesja on Aug 2, 2022 6:26:07 GMT
Which is pretty racist when you stop to think about it. The games journalists and developers whether they're aware or not are enacting a western centric viewpoint of the world where their morals and beliefs are more valid than the others. It's arrogant and condescending. I generally prefer my games to be free of sexualised minors (dead minors are okay, unironically), sexism (for all genders), and homo-/transphobia. All of these often (not always*) are featured in JRPGs.
I might be culturally insensitive, of course.
*I think one of the Tales of games featured a gay couple as main characters? The armour (for all characters) still was immersion-breaking. I also heard something good things about the Yakuza series (haven't played).
No offense, then you clearly haven't played any JRPGs if you believe that sweeping statement. Seriously that's the kind of stuff that games journalism keeps spouting out, now are JRPGs perfect? No of course not, but statements like that just reinforce an arrogant and to be honest a closed-minded viewpoint.
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Post by Pounce de León on Aug 2, 2022 6:58:07 GMT
I generally prefer my games to be free of sexualised minors (dead minors are okay, unironically), sexism (for all genders), and homo-/transphobia. All of these often (not always*) are featured in JRPGs.
I might be culturally insensitive, of course.
*I think one of the Tales of games featured a gay couple as main characters? The armour (for all characters) still was immersion-breaking. I also heard something good things about the Yakuza series (haven't played).
No offense, then you clearly haven't played any JRPGs if you believe that sweeping statement. Seriously that's the kind of stuff that games journalism keeps spouting out, now are JRPGs perfect? No of course not, but statements like that just reinforce an arrogant and to be honest a closed-minded viewpoint. You dont need journalists for that. A look at the Steam store page tells you the story. Lots of trash and boob physics.
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Post by smilesja on Aug 2, 2022 15:55:53 GMT
No offense, then you clearly haven't played any JRPGs if you believe that sweeping statement. Seriously that's the kind of stuff that games journalism keeps spouting out, now are JRPGs perfect? No of course not, but statements like that just reinforce an arrogant and to be honest a closed-minded viewpoint. You dont need journalists for that. A look at the Steam store page tells you the story. Lots of trash and boob physics. So? There’s lots of trash WRPGs on Steam as well. Should we make sweeping statements on that genre based on the many trash games we see?
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Post by ALTBOULI on Aug 2, 2022 20:34:43 GMT
Which is pretty racist when you stop to think about it. The games journalists and developers whether they're aware or not are enacting a western centric viewpoint of the world where their morals and beliefs are more valid than the others. It's arrogant and condescending. I generally prefer my games to be free of sexualised minors (dead minors are okay, unironically), sexism (for all genders), and homo-/transphobia. All of these often (not always*) are featured in JRPGs. What an odd remark to make, I have played a lot of Western and Jrpgs and I can confidently say this is by no means the case. Please enlighten us as to what games you have played which has featured these things. I'm also concerned you casually state you are OK with dead minors. I'm not OK with this, even in horror games, which is why I found the nursery level in dead space 2 tasteless
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Post by biggydx on Aug 3, 2022 16:45:25 GMT
I hope people here aren't perceiving my topic to mean I dislike JRPGs. I've enjoyed a good number of them. My question is solely related to whether or not gaming audiences are more likely to be critical of one type of RPG over another.
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Post by Hawke on Aug 3, 2022 16:59:45 GMT
I generally prefer my games to be free of sexualised minors (dead minors are okay, unironically), sexism (for all genders), and homo-/transphobia. All of these often (not always*) are featured in JRPGs. What an odd remark to make, I have played a lot of Western and Jrpgs and I can confidently say this is by no means the case. Please enlighten us as to what games you have played which has featured these things. I'm also concerned you casually state you are OK with dead minors. I'm not OK with this, even in horror games, which is why I found the nursery level in dead space 2 tasteless To start with the off-topic part. Dead children in games are rarely depicted as a favourable outcome, they are either immortal from the start (e.g. Bethesda games) or used to point out the villain (e.g. The Surge 2) or a tragic event. The exception being Mass Effect 3 where I would love to see Shepard's hallucination turning into red confetti, NieR: Gestalt/Replicant where you repeatedly have to kill a child and its guardian while they are trying to escape from you in order to progress the story, and the pickpocketting children in Fallout 2. The nursery level in Dead Space 2 was fine, it would be odd if a large city did not have a kindergarten and age does not protect from the necromorphes. The two games I remember that used dead children more creatively are Dragon Commander (a side story for one of the advisers) and Divinity: Original Sin 2 (the one eaten by a shark and that you have to read the memories from the limb found to know that).
I will reference only the games that are advertised as JRPGs, parts of reasonably popular series, are not explicitly porn (would be too easy otherwise, there are "JRPG" and "Hentai"/"Sexual Content" tags on Steam).
Firstly, sexualised minors. I will not count various swim outfits, but I still mention at least one.
Secondly, sexism. Again, not counting lingerie-esqe armour designs for female characters. In general, main or positive male characters are expected to act either as hyper-aggressive morons, stoic brooding types without emotions (as mentioned by another poster), or hit on any female character, while at the same time expressing horror of anything gay or feminine, while female characters are supposed to be either flirted with or rescued with little to no agency. The exceptions I would like to highlight are Final Fantasy XIII-3, which had both an active female lead and gay couple who stood against a monotheistic religious institution and the Yakuza series (which I admittedly, have not played). perspectivesingamedesign.com/why-is-final-fantasy-xv-sexist-7b0da7add09fwww.nymgamer.com/?p=8196 Tales of Berseria. I cannot say if it is sarcasm or is it serious:
Finally, homophobia. The general issue is that JRPGs are extremely cis-heteronormative (there are exceptions, of course, but few; the definition from Oxford Reference: "The assumption that normal and natural expressions of *sexuality in society are heterosexual in nature. A heteronormative society is structured morally, socially, and legally to position other forms of sexuality as deviant and to discriminate against non-heterosexuals") and typically portray gay men and trans women as predators, gay women as fetishes, and non-binary, trans male and bisexual persons as non-existent.
I do not play JRPGs often for the above-mentioned reasons, even if sometimes gameplay and style seem appealing, so the list is limited. I also acknowledge that CRPGs used to be similar to JRPGs in this, but featuring marginalized social groups either as villains or "jokes" only is not acceptable anymore.
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Post by ALTBOULI on Aug 3, 2022 23:27:27 GMT
What an odd remark to make, I have played a lot of Western and Jrpgs and I can confidently say this is by no means the case. Please enlighten us as to what games you have played which has featured these things. I'm also concerned you casually state you are OK with dead minors. I'm not OK with this, even in horror games, which is why I found the nursery level in dead space 2 tasteless To start with the off-topic part. Dead children in games are rarely depicted as a favourable outcome, they are either immortal from the start (e.g. Bethesda games) or used to point out the villain (e.g. The Surge 2) or a tragic event. The exception being Mass Effect 3 where I would love to see Shepard's hallucination turning into red confetti, NieR: Gestalt/Replicant where you repeatedly have to kill a child and its guardian while they are trying to escape from you in order to progress the story, and the pickpocketting children in Fallout 2. The nursery level in Dead Space 2 was fine, it would be odd if a large city did not have a kindergarten and age does not protect from the necromorphes. The two games I remember that used dead children more creatively are Dragon Commander (a side story for one of the advisers) and Divinity: Original Sin 2 (the one eaten by a shark and that you have to read the memories from the limb found to know that).
I will reference only the games that are advertised as JRPGs, parts of reasonably popular series, are not explicitly porn (would be too easy otherwise, there are "JRPG" and "Hentai"/"Sexual Content" tags on Steam).
Firstly, sexualised minors. I will not count various swim outfits, but I still mention at least one.
Secondly, sexism. Again, not counting lingerie-esqe armour designs for female characters. In general, main or positive male characters are expected to act either as hyper-aggressive morons, stoic brooding types without emotions (as mentioned by another poster), or hit on any female character, while at the same time expressing horror of anything gay or feminine, while female characters are supposed to be either flirted with or rescued with little to no agency. The exceptions I would like to highlight are Final Fantasy XIII-3, which had both an active female lead and gay couple who stood against a monotheistic religious institution and the Yakuza series (which I admittedly, have not played). perspectivesingamedesign.com/why-is-final-fantasy-xv-sexist-7b0da7add09fwww.nymgamer.com/?p=8196 Tales of Berseria. I cannot say if it is sarcasm or is it serious:
Finally, homophobia. The general issue is that JRPGs are extremely cis-heteronormative (there are exceptions, of course, but few; the definition from Oxford Reference: "The assumption that normal and natural expressions of *sexuality in society are heterosexual in nature. A heteronormative society is structured morally, socially, and legally to position other forms of sexuality as deviant and to discriminate against non-heterosexuals") and typically portray gay men and trans women as predators, gay women as fetishes, and non-binary, trans male and bisexual persons as non-existent.
I do not play JRPGs often for the above-mentioned reasons, even if sometimes gameplay and style seem appealing, so the list is limited. I also acknowledge that CRPGs used to be similar to JRPGs in this, but featuring marginalized social groups either as villains or "jokes" only is not acceptable anymore.
No the nursery mission in dead space 2 was not fine, killing mutilated babies even in a video game is not cool and you're casually making light of this along with a number of other video games involving the harming of minors is frankly disturbing... You seem to have jumped to a lot of conclusions with very little substance...and your main gripe seems to be that JRPG'S don't have enough inclusion. This goes back to my point about games being judged not on video game merits but by social politics which have no relation to the game in question.
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