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Post by vasjatheox on Sept 10, 2022 6:27:15 GMT
Greetings,
meybe i am one of the few who thinks allthough the Andromeda game play was fantastic, the only 3 powers situation was kinda lame. So i was thinking, wouldt it be better if powers where conected on the same skill tree and act as a variation of each other? For example, add 3 TechFire powers to one skill tree, and by adding points you unlock a new alternative, and you can activate all of them with the same power button at any time.
The activation would be TAP once to activate lvl1 power, HOLD to activate lvl 3 power (something like a granade or pull), TAP & HOLD to activate lvl 5 power (something powerfull like, Biotic Charge or Singularity)
Power distribution ideas:
PyroTech: -LVL1 Incinerate (TAP) -LVL2 Augment Incinerate -LVL3 FireGranade (HOLD, Release to throw) -LVL4 Augment FireGranade -LVL5 Flamer (TAP & HOLD) -LVL6 Augment Flamer
DroneTech: -LVL1 Tactical Scan (TAP to activate, DRONE will attack the enemie under the effect) -LVL2 Augment -LVL3 Combat Drone -LVL4 Augment -LVL5 Detonate Drone
ThrowFields -LVL1 Throw -LVL2 Augment -LVL3 ShockWave -LVL4 Augment -LVL5 Biotic Charge
ETC
Just some toughts, meybe we could see something like that in the next Mass Effect perhaps?
Best Regards Vasja
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Post by dmc1001 on Sept 10, 2022 14:42:16 GMT
I did forget how limiting having only three powers was, but I guess that was a consequence to basically having access to every power/talent. SAM rewiring mind and body had to have some limitations. Which, I now realize, maybe isn't inconsistent with ME lore given that the geth are fully capable of fixing the immune systems of quarians.
I had a whole other thing typed out but erased it. I guess you're just trying to make sense of the three button idea. It's not bad but I wouldn't want it overpowered to the point of a single character having access a full range of powers/abilities. I'd rather a PyroTech, for example, not be able to do all of that plus all of the ThrowFields. If we try to take it to just the minimal amount of realism, it would require ridiculous amounts of training that I don't think any protagonist would be up to without a powerful AI rewriting their minds and bodies on the fly.
I could see a different breakdown though. Say you have two buttons in the same category. Maybe button one is incinerate (you'd go from regular to advanced) and the double tap would be grenade, button two could be flamer and drone (isn't there some crossover between Engineer and Infiltrator?). Then the third button could be the bonus power, which might be two from a different class. Charge is a higher level power so I would say that's off the table. But maybe throw or barrier and it would be the only ability in that category. It gives you five talents. However, this would still leave you without the ability to heal your companions because you only have three buttons so maybe that third button has medi-gel as the double tap. That's sort of six talents. It places limits but not too many.
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Post by vasjatheox on Sept 10, 2022 17:31:38 GMT
Hi,
Yes i was thinking the same, meybe just have 2 buttons for powers and keep the L1 + R1 Combo for something else like Deffensive powers perhaps.
Example TAP L1 + R1 for Shield Boost Hold L1 + R1 To activate or deactivate Tech Armor
I also think 6 powers should be more than enough as a current settup, the player could still switch L1 or R1 to a different skill set.
But can you imagine having a Skill Tree for BioticWhips?
Lvl 1 Biotic Rip (TAP to hit the enemies with your WHIP, can TAP 3 time for a combo) lvl 3 LASH (Hold to yank the enemie into close range "Get over here") lvl 5 Biotic Slam (Can be used during biotic Rip as a finisher)
Oh mam.... that would be the best kind of game play ever... at least i think, i might be wrong.
But yes, meybe we could mix and match different Skills like:
ThrowForce LVL1 Throw LVL3 ShockWave or NOVA or ClusterGranade LVL5 Biotic Charge or Flare
PullForce LVL1 Pull LVL3 ShockWave or Slam or Lift Granades LVL5 Singularity or LiftField
I mean, could easily see my self playing with just two SkillTrees active at a time, and not using the L1+R1 combo is much less of a hussle then a 3 Function button.
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Post by dragontartare on Sept 11, 2022 4:22:58 GMT
How would tap and hold work? As soon as you tap, the level 1 power would fire. I guess double tap would work, though.
The trilogy had a perfectly functional power wheel that didn't limit you to only three powers at a time. I hope they will bring that back. Was there some downside to that system with a controller?
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Post by vasjatheox on Sept 11, 2022 6:40:12 GMT
Hi, it has been done many times with many games, mostly JRPGs or Fighting games. You solve it by adding a small animation (it makes the move look more dramatic) and a 2miliseconds delay. For example you just tap the button to get a short delay animation of the character activating the ability. Tap and Hold and the animation mid way switches to a charging animation. Im certain you have experienced this in a game, but the thing is it becomes so natural so fast that we dont even notice it. To be frank i also kindof wanna see strong special powers to be more dramatic and less spammy. But when it comes to pause menues, i prefered the one from the First Mass Effect game, you cant beat the OG in that matter 
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Post by helios969 on Sept 11, 2022 6:57:04 GMT
And that's why I play on PC with a keyboard and mouse...one key for one action. 
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Post by dmc1001 on Sept 11, 2022 16:09:05 GMT
And that's why I play on PC with a keyboard and mouse...one key for one action.  Same. I love being able to press "1" and send a shockwave or "2" and send out my combat drone - or whatever is appropriate for my class. I think it's even "G" for grenades, which was sadly lacking for all classes after ME1, though the sentry turret was pretty awesome.
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Post by vasjatheox on Sept 11, 2022 19:11:47 GMT
And that's why I play on PC with a keyboard and mouse...one key for one action.  Same. I love being able to press "1" and send a shockwave or "2" and send out my combat drone - or whatever is appropriate for my class. I think it's even "G" for grenades, which was sadly lacking for all classes after ME1, though the sentry turret was pretty awesome. Well, some of us play on PC with a gamepad 
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Post by RedCaesar97 on Sept 11, 2022 21:27:02 GMT
How would tap and hold work? As soon as you tap, the level 1 power would fire. I guess double tap would work, though. The trilogy had a perfectly functional power wheel that didn't limit you to only three powers at a time. I hope they will bring that back. Was there some downside to that system with a controller? As someone who plays on a controller, there was no downside to the power wheel. It was functionally a mid-combat pause to select a power -- either your own power or a squadmate's power. Same with the weapon wheel. PC with keyboard also had a mid-combat tactical pause option to select powers or weapons. With an XBox controller, you would hold LB to bring up the weapon wheel, or hold RB to bring up the power wheel. You would need to hold the button for a short amount of time (about half a second) since those buttons could be tapped for other actions: - In ME1, tapping LB would switch between your last two-used weapons. Note that you could also map a single power of your own to X, useful for your most-used skill which was typically a defensive power like Barrier or Immunity. - In ME2 and ME3, you could hotkey up to three powers with Y, LB, and RB. (In ME2, Y is always your signature power and cannot be remapped.) Tapping LB or RB would use the power. The weapon and power wheels worked just fine. Removing the weapon and power wheels was certainly a choice. Not necessarily a bad choice, but a lot of other factors made removing them a bad choice in my opinion.
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Post by dragontartare on Sept 11, 2022 22:44:59 GMT
Im certain you have experienced this in a game, but the thing is it becomes so natural so fast that we dont even notice it. I doubt that I have. I have my entire left hand and a mouse at my disposal, so I have plenty of different buttons to press to activate powers  Tap vs. press and hold, sure. But tap and then hold, I don't recall ever having to do. But when it comes to pause menues, i prefered the one from the First Mass Effect game, you cant beat the OG in that matter  Yep, I don't understand why they removed it. That's why I asked whether it had some downside for controllers. I thought maybe they were catering to console players with the new system in MEA, but from responses so far, it seems not. PC with keyboard also had a mid-combat tactical pause option to select powers or weapons. I'm well aware. That's why I asked about controllers specifically.  The weapon and power wheels worked just fine. Removing the weapon and power wheels was certainly a choice. Not necessarily a bad choice, but a lot of other factors made removing them a bad choice in my opinion. If it worked just fine for everyone, including those playing with a controller, then it's even more baffling why they got rid of the old MET system. I hope they return to something more like that.
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Post by NotN7 on Sept 11, 2022 23:38:02 GMT
I (due to my handicap) play mouse and keyboard tried controller but it was destined to fail.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2022 8:31:59 GMT
Hi, it has been done many times with many games, mostly JRPGs or Fighting games. You solve it by adding a small animation (it makes the move look more dramatic) and a 2miliseconds delay. For example you just tap the button to get a short delay animation of the character activating the ability. Tap and Hold and the animation mid way switches to a charging animation. Im certain you have experienced this in a game, but the thing is it becomes so natural so fast that we dont even notice it. To be frank i also kindof wanna see strong special powers to be more dramatic and less spammy. But when it comes to pause menues, i prefered the one from the First Mass Effect game, you cant beat the OG in that matter  This is cool for a melee combat game, or one where the enemy AI isn't trying to rush you or bust cover. If this had been implemented in ME3, so many deaths due to slow animations. In particular, the MP would be abysmal as the enemy AI doesn't care about your animations it just wants to kill you. So, for SP only it has potential, but for the genres you mentioned and not for Mass Effect. In my opinion. What we had in the past was actually designed first for Xbox, so having a big power tree apparently wasn't an issue then. As some of us are arguing, Mass Effect should improve and build upon what has already been established, and only ever add new things not take away player agency, creativity or power fantasy. Ryder felt lame for many reasons, but the 3 power limit was definitely one of them. Sam and his fancy profiles would get absolutely destroyed by Shepard, because Shepard has a legit power tree and was a legit power fantasy character for a power fantasy game. Ryder was a milquetoast hero for a game that didn't know what it wanted to be or where it was going, and abandoned over half the universe in the process. This is not saying it was a bad game, it was ok and good enough to finish. I liked some of it. But it wasn't a good Mass Effect game, because it used subtraction rather than addition as modus operandi. Bad bad bad decision.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Sept 12, 2022 9:29:53 GMT
I personally hope we dont get pause and powerwheel anymore. Severely slows down my gameplay. Which is why I havent played OT with pause either after few playthroughs. Maybe action will slow down 75% if powerwheel is needed but not full pause. I know all of us are not as competent players as some, but for me the pausing these days destroys a lot of the feeling of roleplaying while in combat too. In MEA one must pause for choosing the ammo type, which could've been mapped from keyboard, but again on gamepad it would've been a hassle etc. I see this daily in my job as I have to test various control methods and sometimes the systems work, sometimes they dont as developers have clearly targeted one of them and maybe forgot to use anything else then mostly. 
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Post by dmc1001 on Sept 12, 2022 13:51:54 GMT
I know all of us are not as competent players as some, but for me the pausing these days destroys a lot of the feeling of roleplaying while in combat too. Real RP is turn-based. Just saying. But that's a separate issue for you here.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Sept 12, 2022 14:07:34 GMT
I know all of us are not as competent players as some, but for me the pausing these days destroys a lot of the feeling of roleplaying while in combat too. Real RP is turn-based. Just saying. But that's a separate issue for you here. Yeah, RPG is. This is aRPG?
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Post by Cyberstrike on Sept 12, 2022 19:34:54 GMT
I did forget how limiting having only three powers was, but I guess that was a consequence to basically having access to every power/talent. SAM rewiring mind and body had to have some limitations. Which, I now realize, maybe isn't inconsistent with ME lore given that the geth are fully capable of fixing the immune systems of quarians. I had a whole other thing typed out but erased it. I guess you're just trying to make sense of the three button idea. It's not bad but I wouldn't want it overpowered to the point of a single character having access a full range of powers/abilities. I'd rather a PyroTech, for example, not be able to do all of that plus all of the ThrowFields. If we try to take it to just the minimal amount of realism, it would require ridiculous amounts of training that I don't think any protagonist would be up to without a powerful AI rewriting their minds and bodies on the fly. I could see a different breakdown though. Say you have two buttons in the same category. Maybe button one is incinerate (you'd go from regular to advanced) and the double tap would be grenade, button two could be flamer and drone (isn't there some crossover between Engineer and Infiltrator?). Then the third button could be the bonus power, which might be two from a different class. Charge is a higher level power so I would say that's off the table. But maybe throw or barrier and it would be the only ability in that category. It gives you five talents. However, this would still leave you without the ability to heal your companions because you only have three buttons so maybe that third button has medi-gel as the double tap. That's sort of six talents. It places limits but not too many.
Currently playing MEA Ryder is using the solider profile with turbocharge, singularity, and Remnant VI and with my play style that is actually more than I need.
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Post by RedCaesar97 on Sept 12, 2022 23:45:26 GMT
The weapon and power wheels worked just fine. Removing the weapon and power wheels was certainly a choice. Not necessarily a bad choice, but a lot of other factors made removing them a bad choice in my opinion. Quick follow-up to my last post, here is what I wrote in another thread about the power/class system in Mass Effect Andromeda, and why I think it did not work. I have a few thoughts on the class-versus-profiles discussion. I will try to keep them coherent. These are my opinions, obviously. Generally, I prefer the class system in the trilogy versus the profile system in Andromeda. I feel that the classes -- more so in ME2 and ME3 -- had an identity. Classes are defined by what they can and cannot do. But within that class system you still have some flexibility. So with multiple classes (and a few ways to play each class), you have some replayability. There are some drawbacks to the class system, namely: - Outside of modding, classes are restricted to their predefined power sets, and power unlocks in ME2 and ME3 can prevent some builds. - If you start hating a class or get bored of playing a class partway through then game, you have no way of switching except starting another playthrough. The profile system in Andromeda on the other hand, is supposedly more flexible, but somehow manages to be both too restricting and not restricting enough at the same time. Profiles provide unique passive stats and abilities to Ryder (this is good!) However, you are limited to only 3 powers at any time. I have no issues with this restriction, except... - The profiles available to you are dependent on the talent points spent into the various power categories (combat, tech, or biotic). So you cannot use certain profiles unless you spend enough points into the specified categories. - The profiles have ranks, which increase as you spend points into the specified categories. That means you will be spending points into powers you cannot (and will not) be using just for the passive increases. - Each category has at least several passive talent trees (about half of Combat category is just passive talent trees). Several upgrades in these talent trees will increase the more points you spend in that category. That also means you will be spending points into powers you cannot (and will not) be using, just for the passive stat increases. You can map up to 4 profiles, and can switch between them... but why? If you switch to a different profile, you will immediately go on a long cooldown, making switching a waste. (Exception, you switch to a Soldier profile that contains only powers that use power cells instead of cooldowns). So even if you switch from an Engineer profile to another Engineer profile, sorry but you got to wait. If you wanted to restrict players to only three powers at a time: - Lower the maximum amount of available talent points so players can only max 3 power trees, plus passive talents (see next bullet). No sense wasting talent points into powers the player is never going to use. - Either give enough talent points to max 1 to 3 passive talent trees, or remove passive talent trees altogether from the power categories (combat, tech, biotic). - Profiles (Soldier, Infiltrator, Vanguard, and so on): Let the player choose the profile type. - IMPORTANT: Allow the player to respec as many times as they want for a SET PRICE each time (not an increasing price each time they respec). On the other hand, if you wanted to give the player more creative freedom while giving them a lot of points to spend into a lot of powers, then you need to let them use more than 3 powers with a power wheel or tactical pause or something. Global cooldowns instead of individual cooldowns would work better for that. (Heck, global cooldowns would still let you have your multi-profile approach with 3-powers-only, without needing to go into instant-cooldown for switching profiles. Cooldown only happens after you use a power (since all powers go into cooldown).
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Post by RedCaesar97 on Sept 12, 2022 23:54:57 GMT
To go back to the original post and question, here are my quick thoughts:
I think the idea of accessing multiple powers on a single button based on tapping or holding is interesting, but ultimately not something I would enjoy. I did not like holding buttons in Mass Effect Andromeda for certain powers like Cryo Beam, Overload, or Flamethrower. "Cooking" a grenade was fine I guess and satisfying for attacking certain enemies, but that was because it felt more like a skill throw instead of a requirement for best usage. Even Flamethrower in ME3 multiplayer was tap to activate and deactivate, you did not have to hold it.
I much prefer mapping my three most-used powers to buttons on my controller, then accessing other powers using a power wheel.
Now you could make some powers evolutions of other existing powers. For example, I think Energy Drain should be a power evolution of Overload (for example, choose between Radius or Energy Drain).
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Post by Cyberstrike on Sept 13, 2022 15:27:46 GMT
IMHO the profiles system gets an A+ in concept but I would give C- in execution.
It does needs some refinement, streamlining, overhauling, and better explanation in-game. I like the idea of having seven different profiles that can level up over the game each with slots for 3 powers and abilities in each profile, so I can have 21 different powers and abilities to switch around and use at any time, but it does need some work.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2022 9:49:53 GMT
I sincerely hope they ditch the profiles system entirely, and unless it is Ryder they kinda have to?
How many SAMs are out there? One less in any galaxy I live in, plug pulled.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Sept 17, 2022 20:00:37 GMT
I sincerely hope they ditch the profiles system entirely, and unless it is Ryder they kinda have to? How many SAMs are out there? One less in any galaxy I live in, plug pulled.
What do have against fun?
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by trinity0 on Sept 17, 2022 21:07:12 GMT
The profile system is no fun at all. Its boring
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2022 21:12:52 GMT
I sincerely hope they ditch the profiles system entirely, and unless it is Ryder they kinda have to? How many SAMs are out there? One less in any galaxy I live in, plug pulled.
What do have against fun?
Nothing. I did not post that to hurt you, and I do want you to have fun. The issue is one of lore, and I do believe that lore beats "fun" everytime, because to me a large part of the fun is learning and knowing the lore.
Despite not being a big fan of Andromeda, I did play it. SAM is not something, as far as we know, ready to be mass produced and sold next to Shep VIs at your favorite store on the Citadel. If the PC for next ME is not Ryder, how would you explain them having the profile system?
Cora Harper doesn't have profiles.
Shepard didn't have profiles.
No other Spectre, of any race, had profiles. None that we were aware of.
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This, in addition to the fact that I prefer a class based system, is why I posted what I did. But the lore aspect is a pretty tough corner to get out of in my opinion, without another large retcon that will surely please all of us 100%
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NotN7
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April 2017
notn7
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by NotN7 on Sept 17, 2022 23:37:03 GMT
What do have against fun?
Nothing. I did not post that to hurt you, and I do want you to have fun. The issue is one of lore, and I do believe that lore beats "fun" everytime, because to me a large part of the fun is learning and knowing the lore.
Despite not being a big fan of Andromeda, I did play it. SAM is not something, as far as we know, ready to be mass produced and sold next to Shep VIs at your favorite store on the Citadel. If the PC for next ME is not Ryder, how would you explain them having the profile system?
Cora Harper doesn't have profiles.
Shepard didn't have profiles.
No other Spectre, of any race, had profiles. None that we were aware of.
...
This, in addition to the fact that I prefer a class based system, is why I posted what I did. But the lore aspect is a pretty tough corner to get out of in my opinion, without another large retcon that will surely please all of us 100%
Umm, but didn't each ARK have a Sam? to me one would think each unless I missed something has three profiles
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Cyberstrike
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Post by Cyberstrike on Sept 18, 2022 14:58:53 GMT
Umm, but didn't each ARK have a Sam? to me one would think each unless I missed something has three profiles
There are at least 5 SAMs. The Human and Asari SAMs seem to be 100% functional. The salarian SAM was dismantled but was being put back together. The turian was damaged due to the Pathfinder protocols transferred being interrupted but was repaired after the transfer was completed. There is also the Quarian Ark so at least 4 maybe 5.
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