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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 12, 2022 20:47:38 GMT
The Transformers is my favorite franchise and guess what? I hate those god-awful Micheal Bay movies, but I don't constantly rant about it, make five hours long YouTube videos to rant and rave about how "Bay ruined my childhood." bullshit, and so on. I know many people that was how they got introduced to the franchise and I got one of the best TF TV shows Transformers: Prime that was IMHO best shows because it had a lot new and exciting and different takes on lore of The Transformers. Side note, but if you haven’t seen them I highly recommend the Unicron Trilogy, especially Armada and Cybertron. |
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Post by blah23 on Oct 13, 2022 3:46:20 GMT
Amazon will do the same thing they have done with Ring of Powwer. A TV Show that has the name Mass Effect in it, but has nothing to do with the actual Lore of Mass Effect
So what? I got news for you: the actual lore for LotR and ME is bullshit anyway there are no such things as elves and dragons just like there are no mass effect relays and element zero. Stop taking the lore so seriously and trust me you'll find a lot more enjoyment in media. If you want to make lore and continuity the only things that matter then you can just read Wikipedia.
Because the mass audience doesn't give a shit about lore and continuity. They want a story that has cool characters that they can emotional relate too, not sit and wonder why so so is black, or how the engines work of fictional space ship.
The lore and continuity the least important thing that I care about and shows that roll around in that shit all suck.
You want us to be like this:
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Post by Cyberstrike on Oct 13, 2022 13:53:55 GMT
The Transformers is my favorite franchise and guess what? I hate those god-awful Micheal Bay movies, but I don't constantly rant about it, make five hours long YouTube videos to rant and rave about how "Bay ruined my childhood." bullshit, and so on. I know many people that was how they got introduced to the franchise and I got one of the best TF TV shows Transformers: Prime that was IMHO best shows because it had a lot new and exciting and different takes on lore of The Transformers. Side note, but if you haven’t seen them I highly recommend the Unicron Trilogy, especially Armada and Cybertron.
I have seen them and all of them on DVD.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Oct 13, 2022 13:57:30 GMT
So what? I got news for you: the actual lore for LotR and ME is bullshit anyway there are no such things as elves and dragons just like there are no mass effect relays and element zero. Stop taking the lore so seriously and trust me you'll find a lot more enjoyment in media. If you want to make lore and continuity the only things that matter then you can just read Wikipedia.
Because the mass audience doesn't give a shit about lore and continuity. They want a story that has cool characters that they can emotional relate too, not sit and wonder why so so is black, or how the engines work of fictional space ship.
The lore and continuity the least important thing that I care about and shows that roll around in that shit all suck.
You want us to be like this:
More like this:
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is wanting to have some fun!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Cyberstrike on Oct 13, 2022 14:33:57 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2022 15:14:42 GMT
If you are making a reboot or a re-imagining or whatever, sure, go nuts. As fr as I am concerned, this is akin to creating a new IP anyway. But within that new version, stay consistent. In general if you are making something that is supposed to belong into a universe that is already established, you better adhere to what is already established. Otherwise, the whole point of being in that universe becomes irrelevant. Consistency in a fictional universe, no matter which genre, is IMO the cornerstone of good story telling. The inner consistency of reality (as Tolkien called it) is an important part of story telling, especially in scenarios which are rather far removed from our own reality (such as fantasy or scifi). Those universes already require a certain amount of suspension of disbelief but at least by keeping the inner consistency as intact as possible you allow the audience/readers to trust in the logic of the events you are telling a story about. If you loose that trust, your audience may come to expect just anything to happen anyway and that makes any kind of suspense so much more difficult to achieve. If anything can happen at any time, nothing really means much, does it? That's why I think that within a fictional universe, respect of canon is a very high priority. As much as I love its characters and story arcs, my greatest point of criticism of the Mass Effect franchise is that starting with ME2, they weren't respectful to their own established lore at all. Exactly, I think this debate is a good example of the value of moderation, being too rigid or too lose with canon will respectively lead to creative stagnation or anarchy. There's actually something of a horseshoe effect going on as well as in the worst possible scenario both stagnation and anarchy will Occur. ME2 is actually a very good example of this as that game both played loose with established concepts, while simultaneously failing to properly set up the events of the third game.
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Post by AnDromedary on Oct 13, 2022 15:40:17 GMT
If you are making a reboot or a re-imagining or whatever, sure, go nuts. As fr as I am concerned, this is akin to creating a new IP anyway. But within that new version, stay consistent. In general if you are making something that is supposed to belong into a universe that is already established, you better adhere to what is already established. Otherwise, the whole point of being in that universe becomes irrelevant. Consistency in a fictional universe, no matter which genre, is IMO the cornerstone of good story telling. The inner consistency of reality (as Tolkien called it) is an important part of story telling, especially in scenarios which are rather far removed from our own reality (such as fantasy or scifi). Those universes already require a certain amount of suspension of disbelief but at least by keeping the inner consistency as intact as possible you allow the audience/readers to trust in the logic of the events you are telling a story about. If you loose that trust, your audience may come to expect just anything to happen anyway and that makes any kind of suspense so much more difficult to achieve. If anything can happen at any time, nothing really means much, does it? That's why I think that within a fictional universe, respect of canon is a very high priority. As much as I love its characters and story arcs, my greatest point of criticism of the Mass Effect franchise is that starting with ME2, they weren't respectful to their own established lore at all. Exactly, I think this debate is a good example of the value of moderation, being too rigid or too lose with canon will respectively lead to creative stagnation or anarchy. There's actually something of a horseshoe effect going on as well as in the worst possible scenario both stagnation and anarchy will Occur. ME2 is actually a very good example of this as that game both played loose with established concepts, while simultaneously failing to properly set up the events of the third game. Yea, ME2 also had the additional problem that, apart from disregarding some factual consistency (like what Cerberus is), almost more importantly, it violated the consistency of themes, that was established by ME1. There is a very good article here, which elaborates on what exactly I mean by that.
In a way, I think thematic consistency is almost more important than factual consistency. One example that comes to mind is the new Star Trek series Strange New Worlds. They recast some actors from the original, they changed some details about how certain things worked at the time and stuff certainly looks different than it did in the original series but they did manage to capture the thematic framework of old Trek pretty well in this one and so, it "feels right" (at least to me).
Mass Effect (and especially the beginning of Mass Effect 2) didn't always manage a good job with this either. It's not entirely bad in that regard but ti's not really good either.
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Post by smilesja on Oct 14, 2022 22:33:03 GMT
Exactly, I think this debate is a good example of the value of moderation, being too rigid or too lose with canon will respectively lead to creative stagnation or anarchy. There's actually something of a horseshoe effect going on as well as in the worst possible scenario both stagnation and anarchy will Occur. ME2 is actually a very good example of this as that game both played loose with established concepts, while simultaneously failing to properly set up the events of the third game. Yea, ME2 also had the additional problem that, apart from disregarding some factual consistency (like what Cerberus is), almost more importantly, it violated the consistency of themes, that was established by ME1. There is a very good article here, which elaborates on what exactly I mean by that.
In a way, I think thematic consistency is almost more important than factual consistency. One example that comes to mind is the new Star Trek series Strange New Worlds. They recast some actors from the original, they changed some details about how certain things worked at the time and stuff certainly looks different than it did in the original series but they did manage to capture the thematic framework of old Trek pretty well in this one and so, it "feels right" (at least to me).
Mass Effect (and especially the beginning of Mass Effect 2) didn't always manage a good job with this either. It's not entirely bad in that regard but ti's not really good either.
Shamus Young, I stopped listening to him when he on a rant on how Bethesda sucks at making Fallout games.
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Post by AnDromedary on Oct 14, 2022 23:09:27 GMT
Yea, ME2 also had the additional problem that, apart from disregarding some factual consistency (like what Cerberus is), almost more importantly, it violated the consistency of themes, that was established by ME1. There is a very good article here, which elaborates on what exactly I mean by that.
In a way, I think thematic consistency is almost more important than factual consistency. One example that comes to mind is the new Star Trek series Strange New Worlds. They recast some actors from the original, they changed some details about how certain things worked at the time and stuff certainly looks different than it did in the original series but they did manage to capture the thematic framework of old Trek pretty well in this one and so, it "feels right" (at least to me).
Mass Effect (and especially the beginning of Mass Effect 2) didn't always manage a good job with this either. It's not entirely bad in that regard but ti's not really good either.
Shamus Young, I stopped listening to him when he on a rant on how Bethesda sucks at making Fallout games. I certainly don't agree with him on everything. I don't even come close to agreeing with him on everything in his insanely long piece about the ME series there. But I do fully agree with him on this entire part about the transition from ME1 to ME2 (which is the article brfore the one I linked and the next 2 or 3 after. That transition was thoroughly messed up and he does a pretty good job explaining the reasons there, IMO.
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I've revived Shepard, but I'm sending him in a Suicide Mission.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: MegaIllusiveMan
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Post by MegaIllusiveMan on Oct 16, 2022 19:15:11 GMT
The ME TV show doesn't need to be a Shepard story, to be honest. Large of what makes the game special are the choices and that freedom of Renegade/Paragon. Plus, by 2183, the lore is kinda established already, which would make some things hard to follow. Go back in time. Explore the First Contact War, because you need to have an human element to connect to the audience, and that human element that has no idea what the consequences of opening a Relay, the Turians, or even galaxy-wide politics is the best way to go because the new folks would be like that. Make a prologue (15 min or so) about them discovering the Prothean ruins on Mars and the Element Zero which eventually led them to the Charon Relay and there's your context on the whole space race and humanity forming the Systems Alliance. You could even include a crawl, since ME is no stranger in doing so. I would go slower and give a lot of screen time to finding the Prothean ruins first. It would be like any scifi show basically, no need to know any lore beforehand. It's always problematic for wider audiences if there is any vital lore reviewed too quickly in the beginning. I dunno, to be honest. Part of what makes Mass Effect is not humanity politics, and the First Contact War would be a huge deal-breaker for anyone coming in a sci-fi show expecting something more than humans in the future. It could work, but I would say a prologue that gives vital information is way more valuable so we get to the good stuff ASAP.
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Post by hulluliini on Oct 17, 2022 7:11:09 GMT
I would go slower and give a lot of screen time to finding the Prothean ruins first. It would be like any scifi show basically, no need to know any lore beforehand. It's always problematic for wider audiences if there is any vital lore reviewed too quickly in the beginning. I dunno, to be honest. Part of what makes Mass Effect is not humanity politics, and the First Contact War would be a huge deal-breaker for anyone coming in a sci-fi show expecting something more than humans in the future. It could work, but I would say a prologue that gives vital information is way more valuable so we get to the good stuff ASAP. But discovering the ruins is basically right before the First Contact War? Isn't that "something more than humans" when you got aliens shooting at you the minute you try to activate that mysterious artifact? All I mean is don't start the show from the middle of the war, which is what I'd expect from your run of the mill tv show these days, straight into action because viewers (supposedly) don't have any attention span.
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Post by AnDromedary on Oct 17, 2022 20:02:50 GMT
I dunno, to be honest. Part of what makes Mass Effect is not humanity politics, and the First Contact War would be a huge deal-breaker for anyone coming in a sci-fi show expecting something more than humans in the future. It could work, but I would say a prologue that gives vital information is way more valuable so we get to the good stuff ASAP. But discovering the ruins is basically right before the First Contact War? Isn't that "something more than humans" when you got aliens shooting at you the minute you try to activate that mysterious artifact? All I mean is don't start the show from the middle of the war, which is what I'd expect from your run of the mill tv show these days, straight into action because viewers (supposedly) don't have any attention span. The discovery of the prothean ruins on Mars is 2148, the First Contact War is in 57, so there are 9 years in between, during which humanity researches mass effect technology and starts building their own interstellar fleet and places like Arcturus Station.
I do agree that the Relay 314 incident (aka the start of the First Contact War) should be the kickoff point to the series. The discovery of the prothean ruins and the Charon Relay could be done in either a prologue or even later in some sort of flashback or a delayed prologue like how they show the discovery of the Epstein Drive as a prologue for one of the later episodes in season 1 of the Expanse.
I probably wouldn't spend too much time on the First Contact War. Just use it to introduce the human protagonists. Could be done in a pilot two parter (or maybe three parter if needed). I'd fairly quickly want to go on to the point where humanity really enters the galactic community and gets to interact with all the other species, discovers the wonders of the galaxy, like the Citadel and starts the struggle to establish colonies and such. Part of the reason is that I'd also like to see aliens in the crew of the hero ship and that cannot happen until after the First Contact War. And you could tell more varied stories that way.
That would be my preference anyway. I am sure everyone has their own favorite scenario.
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Post by hulluliini on Oct 18, 2022 6:58:25 GMT
But discovering the ruins is basically right before the First Contact War? Isn't that "something more than humans" when you got aliens shooting at you the minute you try to activate that mysterious artifact? All I mean is don't start the show from the middle of the war, which is what I'd expect from your run of the mill tv show these days, straight into action because viewers (supposedly) don't have any attention span. The discovery of the prothean ruins on Mars is 2148, the First Contact War is in 57, so there are 9 years in between, during which humanity researches mass effect technology and starts building their own interstellar fleet and places like Arcturus Station.
I do agree that the Relay 314 incident (aka the start of the First Contact War) should be the kickoff point to the series. The discovery of the prothean ruins and the Charon Relay could be done in either a prologue or even later in some sort of flashback or a delayed prologue like how they show the discovery of the Epstein Drive as a prologue for one of the later episodes in season 1 of the Expanse.
I probably wouldn't spend too much time on the First Contact War. Just use it to introduce the human protagonists. Could be done in a pilot two parter (or maybe three parter if needed). I'd fairly quickly want to go on to the point where humanity really enters the galactic community and gets to interact with all the other species, discovers the wonders of the galaxy, like the Citadel and starts the struggle to establish colonies and such. Part of the reason is that I'd also like to see aliens in the crew of the hero ship and that cannot happen until after the First Contact War. And you could tell more varied stories that way.
That would be my preference anyway. I am sure everyone has their own favorite scenario.
Those are the sort of stories I would like to see as a fan, told from the perspective of ordinary people, but I'm not sure it would work for people who know nothing about the franchise. I think there would have to be some major gripping plotline to keep it together, like the protomolecule in the Expanse (except that it was pretty much cast aside in the last two seasons). And I'm not sure it can be the reaper story because the ordinary people didn't know much apart from rumors until they basically attacked in ME3. It would have to have a small enough story to allow for good characterization but simultaneously give a sense of awe at the galaxy and its civilisations open for exploration. Maybe some Firefly kind of crew could work.
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Post by hulluliini on Oct 20, 2022 7:48:52 GMT
Exactly, I think this debate is a good example of the value of moderation, being too rigid or too lose with canon will respectively lead to creative stagnation or anarchy. There's actually something of a horseshoe effect going on as well as in the worst possible scenario both stagnation and anarchy will Occur. ME2 is actually a very good example of this as that game both played loose with established concepts, while simultaneously failing to properly set up the events of the third game. Yea, ME2 also had the additional problem that, apart from disregarding some factual consistency (like what Cerberus is), almost more importantly, it violated the consistency of themes, that was established by ME1. There is a very good article here, which elaborates on what exactly I mean by that.
In a way, I think thematic consistency is almost more important than factual consistency. One example that comes to mind is the new Star Trek series Strange New Worlds. They recast some actors from the original, they changed some details about how certain things worked at the time and stuff certainly looks different than it did in the original series but they did manage to capture the thematic framework of old Trek pretty well in this one and so, it "feels right" (at least to me).
Mass Effect (and especially the beginning of Mass Effect 2) didn't always manage a good job with this either. It's not entirely bad in that regard but ti's not really good either.
Thanks for the link by the way, I've been reading it and it's very entertaining and the facts vs drama thing explains a lot. Especially the part where he explains how the beginning of ME2 doesn't make sense on many levels explains perfectly why I always feel so detached during that part until you finally get to the real action. I'm taken away by the feels and drama and find it difficult to stop and think why something feels off and it's so helpful to have articles such as these.
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Post by AnDromedary on Oct 20, 2022 19:07:47 GMT
The discovery of the prothean ruins on Mars is 2148, the First Contact War is in 57, so there are 9 years in between, during which humanity researches mass effect technology and starts building their own interstellar fleet and places like Arcturus Station.
I do agree that the Relay 314 incident (aka the start of the First Contact War) should be the kickoff point to the series. The discovery of the prothean ruins and the Charon Relay could be done in either a prologue or even later in some sort of flashback or a delayed prologue like how they show the discovery of the Epstein Drive as a prologue for one of the later episodes in season 1 of the Expanse.
I probably wouldn't spend too much time on the First Contact War. Just use it to introduce the human protagonists. Could be done in a pilot two parter (or maybe three parter if needed). I'd fairly quickly want to go on to the point where humanity really enters the galactic community and gets to interact with all the other species, discovers the wonders of the galaxy, like the Citadel and starts the struggle to establish colonies and such. Part of the reason is that I'd also like to see aliens in the crew of the hero ship and that cannot happen until after the First Contact War. And you could tell more varied stories that way.
That would be my preference anyway. I am sure everyone has their own favorite scenario.
Those are the sort of stories I would like to see as a fan, told from the perspective of ordinary people, but I'm not sure it would work for people who know nothing about the franchise. I think there would have to be some major gripping plotline to keep it together, like the protomolecule in the Expanse (except that it was pretty much cast aside in the last two seasons). And I'm not sure it can be the reaper story because the ordinary people didn't know much apart from rumors until they basically attacked in ME3. It would have to have a small enough story to allow for good characterization but simultaneously give a sense of awe at the galaxy and its civilisations open for exploration. Maybe some Firefly kind of crew could work. It may not necessarily work with "ordinary people" but I think one could make a great show for non-Fans with extraordinary people. To be more precise, we could follow a group of humans that distinguish themselves in the First Contact War (aka the pilot episodes) and are therefore chosen by the alliance to be on the forefront of both diplomacy and exploration as humanity starts its expansion and integration into the galactic community. I think it would be thrilling to see this also for non Mass Effect fans and the cool thing is, lore exposition will happen naturally as the characters discover everything about the galaxy together with the audience. Imagine the wonder as we follow the first humans to ever set foot on the Citadel. The gravitas and tension of the first diplomatic steps to get an embassy with the council. The first skirmishes with the batarians as humanity starts their rivalry with them over control of the Skyllian Verge. Maybe they have to go on a covert mission to the Terminus Systems at some point and maybe during some of these adventures they start picking up alien crew members.
That's how I'd set it up.
As for a main plotline, I completely agree to stay away from the reapers directly. In fact, I think it would be cool to make this series more episodic with a more loose main plot in the background (like Star Trek Strange New Worlds did lately). One could set up recurring plot lines that develop into things that have to do with the reapers later on. I would definitely vote for a few Cameos by young versions of David Anderson and Steven Hackett. Anderson in particular is an interesting candidate since - according to Revelations - he graduated from the N7 program just days before the First Contact War.
The main plotline for the series could e.g. follow humanity's efforts to set up their illegal AI research program and then keep it hidden. After all, that program eventually leads to the distruction of the Sidon research facility and the kidnapping of Dr. Qian, which in turn brings Saren and Sovereign together and kicks off the entire plot of ME1.
IMO, a good prequel has a plotline that doesn't directly relate to the main plot of the original but has some relevant events that are connected to it. In the case of ME, this could be achieved fairly easily I think.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: helios969
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Post by helios969 on Oct 22, 2022 7:47:47 GMT
If you wanted to start with the First Contact War I would suggest a 4 hour miniseries as a way to setup Human infancy in the galactic community then time skip for actual series with Shepard and the start of the Reaper threat. You could use the miniseries to plant some seeds foreshadowing the threat through the study of the Prothean ruins on Mars. That'd be my approach if I were writing the script.
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Post by hulluliini on Oct 23, 2022 6:42:32 GMT
If you wanted to start with the First Contact War I would suggest a 4 hour miniseries as a way to setup Human infancy in the galactic community then time skip for actual series with Shepard and the start of the Reaper threat. You could use the miniseries to plant some seeds foreshadowing the threat through the study of the Prothean ruins on Mars. That'd be my approach if I were writing the script. A miniseries would be a less expensive way to test the waters, to see if there would be enough viewers.
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Post by hulluliini on Oct 24, 2022 7:51:18 GMT
Shit, I've been reading Shamus Young's analysis of MET and only now realised that he passed away 4 months ago. So sad, he is obviously more clearheaded than most game critics, very knowledgeable about culture and literature, and such a great writer. Really doesn't seem fair.
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