A immersive DreadWolf Tone

In terms of visuals dai is the best looking game (except for hair) with the most engaging environments, so I'd like Dreadwolf to lean towards dai in that respect (subject to context of course, some areas will recquire different lighting and style choices)

In terms of story/the depiction of certain groups in Dreadwolf... DAO is very upfront with the struggles of the casteless, city elves, dalish and circle mages, particularly when you do that origin, but even if you do not. You see that they're suffering. I would prefer Dreadwolf lean towards that when it comes to slavery, blood magic, qunari use of qamek etc. If I'm somewhere where that stuff is happening I want to see it not just occasionally hear about it or read a codex.

Walter Black

That is kind of part of the thing though.  What makes Dragon Age unique?  Is that definition agreed upon by the community as a whole?  Should Dragon Age be unique by chasing the Witcher or Game of Thrones in terms of their tone or should it try and be its own thing?  

Even despite Mark Darrah's commentary on the subject which is certainly interesting to consider I really don't see the substantative shift in tone between Origins, 2, and Inquisition.  As I've kind of joked in the past the only thing that is really lighter about the game is just the better lighting and color pallet because of the better tech.  But as catcher exaustively goes into below (some examples I might not even have been aware of) there is a lot of horror in Inquisition and it still deals with heavy concepts with maturity and moxy that some of their compeititon lack.  Sure the presentation could probably be better in this area, but in the end it is there. 


Pretty wonderfully said all the way through.  Almost tempted on posting that applause gif but that would be super cliche.   

I do think though that maybe the issue is one of presentation and depth.  The horror was certainly there but Origins and 2 was certainly a lot more in ones face about it with the tenticles and the Hespith's and the Hawk abomination being seen and what have you.  This is probably the issue with the overall top down feel of the Inquisitor and Inquisition for lack of a better word.  The horror was certainly there, I won't ever say it isn't, but maybe the next protagonist could be down more in the muck next time?

This quote that you address was originally mine so I will answer your objections. So far as coincidental crises are concerned, that is connected to the overall writing, not the tone of the game.

The ability to kill an arch-demon is not relevant until the final reel. Thanks to Grey Warden secrecy on the matter, no one is aware of the uniqueness of the Grey Wardens in this respect, so Loghain and others see no reason why it would be disastrous to kill you. It is why I thought Duncan was crazy placing all of his Grey Wardens on the front line (apart from two who didn't even know the secret) when the arch-demon hadn't even made an appearance, but I digress from my main point. From the outset of DAI the PC had a unique ability that everyone knew about and gave them an immediate status and power. You retain those advantages right through until the end of Trespasser. You were also elevated to Divine messenger status by the circumstances of you receiving the Anchor, whether you claimed this or not. By contrast, the Warden had the power to sense darkspawn (hardly an advantage when they are everywhere) and the arch-demon (although this seemed limited to your dreams). So, essentially you are on the same level as everyone else in general abilities (allowing for certain natural skills) and considerably lower on the social scale compared with many of those you had to deal with (even the human noble had lost most of the advantages of their position in society). I also pointed out how your introduction to the world was brutal. With DAI I would say it was more confusing.

Also, whilst both unique abilities will eventually kill you, the Inquisitor does not discover this fact until the final DLC, whereas the Warden knows from the outset the downside to being a Grey Warden. Then Riorden informs you of the ultimate twist in the tale of being one. First time I played, I turned down Morrigan's offer and from then on, I was convinced I was going to die by the end (having guessed Riorden wouldn't make it). I was literally fighting my way across Denerim to my death. That had a genuine impact on me. The fact that I accepted Alistair's offer when he stepped up at the end and wanted to do it to save his friend, only added to the emotion of the situation for me. Whichever way I had chosen, it would have been a bittersweet ending after all our efforts and that was a good thing. Maybe that wasn't dark but it definitely blew me away in a way that the ending to DAI didn't, not even the extended story in Trespasser.

I agree that DAI was not without its moments of darkness but it did at times feel more like this was the result of the activities of the Venatori rather than an underlying feature of the setting itself. I knew they were there in the background because I had played the previous games and read all the lore but I do wonder how much a new player would appreciate that fact.   Often the more typical Thedas aspects were found in optional side-quests rather than something you would automatically encounter.   As for your PC personally, did they ever experience prejudice, adversity or loss in the way the Warden did in their origin story, which was directly related to how life is generally in Thedas?   I recall the odd insult, maybe, at the beginning as an elf and a War Table mission which could go badly wrong but no one in game acknowledged that fact if it did.   Yes, I know you can get yourself ejected from the Winter Palace ball, but let's face it, you had to be pretty stupid not to appreciate how to play the Game.

Incidentally, I'm not saying that one was necessarily preferable over the other.  I've enjoyed all the Dragon Age games.   I'm simply acknowledging that there was a difference in tone between DAO and DAI.     I also wonder if DA:D will be closer to DAO than DAI when it comes to the progress and development of our PC, since they've said they are going to start from nothing and the writers are going to explore what they do to address issues when those in authority are ignoring them.   I suppose you could argue that the latter was also a theme of DAI but at least they have promised that there will be "no magic hand" with our new hero.

Isn't that part of the point though?  If a franchise like Batman can accomodate wildly different tones in its works and still be called 'Batman' then why can't Dragon Age?  And taking this thought to its own conclusion these kinds of tonal shifts tend to happen all the time from different releases of a franchise, to different episodes, even different scenes or moments within scenes.  One moment the situation can be dark and serious, the stakes can be high, the choices the characters have to make can be a matter of life and death..and then in an eyeblink they are cracking fart jokes.  (Literally just watched an episode of Farscape do it).  

Sure there is a theoretical upper limit for everything and no one would confuse the Roger Moore era of Bond for the Daniel Craig but yet they are both still Bond.  Writing remains the intersection between what an author wants to do with a given work and how the audience recieves his writing.  One may not like it, one may even love it, but really these shifts in tone...far, far, greater then what has happened in Dragon Age, happens all the time in fiction.  

I think for this reason I find the conversation on darkness to be kind of a 'trap'.  What audiences really mean about this sort of thing is more about maturity and a sense of 'realism.'  And while DAO certainly had plenty of dark moments in it, and while like I said maybe Inquisition's issue was that they weren't in your face enough...

On the other hand do we need all of that to tell a mature story?  Do we need sexual assault and child killing?  Do we need to commit mass murder in order to tell a story on the human connection?  Maybe.  But what I have found in my own consumption of media is that if a story gets too 'dark' then that tension can snap in your face and your story risks turning into caricature.  That line, much like my contradictory thoughts on how to handle Inquisition's 'darkness' is a bit hard for me to find, but I know it when I see it.  A setting that is just this unending cycle of mysery and injustice looses all of its nuance and eventually all of its tension.  I think Dragon Age Origins and DA 2 went right up to that line, the Witcher video games crossed it, and Inquisition took that pressure off just a little bit.  Telling a mature, dark, story without any risk of being edgy for the sake of being edgy.  

Sorry I've been much delayed in posting. Crunch at work and a child home from college. I'm not going to be able to comment on every point that's been brought up but I'll do my best to cover



Failing to ressonate is quite a distance from 'ignored and retconned', no? That fits far better with my own perception of Origins and Inquisition but I think you overstate both how much Origins shows and how much Inquisition tells and how important each of those may be even if they are true. An example from each to illustrate my point. Both the transformation of Branka's Clan and the conversion of Grey Wardens to demons by their own mages are terribly dark stories of betrayal in the hope of gaining power to avert some larger tragedy. Yet, in Origins, you don't see what happens to Branka's Clan, only the aftermath. The Warden gets somes notes along the way, then the poem recited in small pieces, then the discussion with the wrecked Hespith. All this builds slowly to the horror of the Broodmother and, most importantly to me, the final, despairing words of Hespith ("But the true abomination... is not that it occurred, but that it was allowed") The Anvil of the Void is almost an anti-climax after that build and release. In Inquisition, you do get to watch multiple Wardens butcher their brothers or sisters to raise demons. You even get to see elven girl from Crestwood butchered by the head of the order that saved her life (if you make the right/wrong choices) for a demon, of Pride (naturally). The Culling of the Wardens has far less emotional impact because of a poor build of the rationale and a facillitating villan who is so mustache-triwlingly bad, I was looking under sand dunes for Dudley Dooright and his Horse. They get kindof close to an actual connection when Livius tries to convince Clarel and the Wardens that the Inquisition just doesn't understand their obssession, but all the previous failures are just too much and the writers literally have to call in draco ex machina. The build is scattered and unfocused, undermining any emotional or visceral impact. It isn't tone. It isn't show or tell. Its in the way that they use it. I just don't see the evidence that makes this a case of the Nolan Batman Trilogy versus the 1960s Batman television program.



Pretty sure this was in response to me instead of Walter. Hope I don't step on anything. The reason I quote this line and leave out the rest of the (excellent as always) analysis is that I do not deny that there are some differences of approach. However, does any Dragon Age game have to follow just the pattern Origins laid down in order to be considered dark in tone? That's an assertion I would deny just as I would if someone tried to convince me the Exodus is also somehow sweetness and light despite missing several of the elements you cite for Origins. Writers' choices (forced or otherwise) in storytelling does not equate to tone for me.

My off-handed comparison of the Taint versus the Anchor was not meant to be axiomatic, but there's far more similarities than differences and even the differences were leveraged (more clumsily as I pointed out above) to provide more emotional weight to the story. Inquisition doesn't include playable origins but then, this also isn't the first or even second game of the series. Every novel in a series doesn't re-re-reintroduce all the world building of the first, nor should a third game in a series. While being a Grey Warden makes you a target for Logain's bullies, it also gets you additional consideration and loot in Lothering, entrance into Orzamar, entrance without getting too pointed a reception at the Dalish Camp, jobs from Sergent Kylon in Denerim, etc. So being a Grey Warden is not all burden (or even close) in Origins. In Inquisition, from the beginning, Cassandra draws down on you for even picking up a weapon to defend yourself in the opening and she knows you may be their only hope. The nascent Inquisition gets no advantage from your 'Herald of Andraste' propiganda as the Chantry disowns you, the Templars claim you are beneath their notice, even a minor Orlesan nobleman tries to steal Haven out from under your feet. Not really any better than the Warden in respect or worldly power. Where you DO get power in Inquisition is by solving problems with your steel, guile, magic, and friends just like in Origins. It's more 'smeared out' than Origins, but it works exactly the same. Further, you are asked several times about how the Anchor feels and there are multiple points that it causes the Inquisitor visible pain throughout the base game. Even if its not spelled out, the hints are strong that this power could be dangerous to your health. Finally, Inquisition introduces fairly early the idea that your Inquisitor can feel responsibility for their troops. From the slaughter by the Blades in the Storm Coast, to the lure of captured troops in the Fallow Mire, to the undercover operation with Bull in Skyhold, to the numerous times you can either tell a subordinate to take care of the troops or push them to achieve objectives regardless of cost. There is nothing like this in Origins. The differences between mostly leading a small group in Origins versus an orginization in Inquisition are important, but there's no abandonment of dark tones in Inquisition I can find from that.




Let me refresh your memory. In Inquisition I can:
Curse most of the Mages in Southern Thedas to 'indentured servitude' with a nasty cult of the 'Vints OR
Condemn the remaining Templars to death at the hands of their own corrupted bretheren
Through inaction and solely on a hunch, allow the Empress of Orlais to be assassinated by her own cousin and hope I can put together an alliance that will keep Orlais together and won't blowup in the world's face
Exile the remnants of the Grey Wardens from southern Thedas eventhough I know the good they do outside fighting the Darkspawn (Blackwall and Crestwwod wardens)
Multiple times, choose to save/help troops to reduce casualties
Choose to cooperate with ancient elven defenders of a forgotten temple or just bull through them like another obstacle

That's just mainline quests. Just sayin'



The large army of Red Templars/Venatori marching on Haven might have something to do with the inability to just skedaddle. Large opposing armies tend to do that. Redcliffe is really a bad place to talk about choices though. If you leave town, yes, it can get wiped by undead. In the same quest area though, you can leave the demon child running around the castle it just took over a couple weeks before to jaunt up Lake Calenhad, possibly free the mages from their own issue. Maybe take a trip in the Woods to see what the Dalish are up to. You know, I hear the Frostbacks are lovely this time of year. Oh, wait, about that Conrad kid. Of course, that's a weakness of many CRPGs including Origins. Using a singular example from Origins, doesn't really illustrate whatever point you are trying to make.


Thanks all for your time and thoughts even if I don't agree.

I would dispute this on several fronts. First, you don't 'know' any darkspawn, werewolves, random dwarven or human thugs, undead, etc. There are cases where you might be fighting variously Dalish villagers, the corpses of Haven villagers, perhaps a companion or two but that requires certain choices so for most if not all the game, you aren't fighting 'familiar faces'. Second, you don't have to have played Origins to know something about each side. Of course, you get a view of the worst all over the Hinterlands but there are more nuanced views as well. There is Lysette and, to a lesser degree, Cullen and Cassandra in Haven to give the protagonists some perspective on Templars. Also in Haven, you can get some input from Viviene on the best of the Circle and Templars. There's also Minaeve in Haven for a different view of Circle life. Then there are more than a few mages in Redcliffe (including, if he is saved in Origins, Conner ironically enough) to give your character a better perspective on them. There's connections galore available to you in Inquisition, they just won't be trying to stick a sword or lightning bolt in you later.


Or you can talk to Abelas and find out how desperate the situation is and avoid additional slaughter. Sounds like a nuanced, complex situation to me but I'm a loose nut so...



I won't dispute what you feel, but the instance still doesn't seem to match to the feeling. First, leaving Redcliffe Village early is the ONLY instance in all of Origins like that so its hard to make that an illustration of how the whole world works. Second, it is undermined almost immediately by another immediate situation that you can potentially ignore for a large chunk of game time. Third, there are two situations in Inquisition that do not require a TPK that can END the game badly for you, not just a village (timer on Champions of the Just and zero reputation in WHWM). There's nothing like that in Origins so, if you feel invincible in Inquisition, it comes up to something else than whether a village can die at one point in Origins. Thanks for your input.

Only if you take the time to dance on the pretty tiles first. I know it is meant to have shown you respect their customs but it really is a lot of time being wasted when by rights there is meant to be a sense of urgency in preventing Samson/Calpernia getting to the Well first. I think a lot of people, particularly new players, wouldn't realise this was a typical Bioware ploy to make you work for the ideal outcome. Take as long as you like dancing on the tiles (and first run through it did take me a while to get it right), it won't make any difference to the overall outcome concerning who gets to the Well first but it does have a bonus that prevents bloodshed.

Given we're going to be in Tevinter they should go for majestic with dark undertones...wealth and beauty underscored by dirty and downtrodden slaves; control and stability in their cities vs. the perpetual war with the Qun in the north; the Magisterium prim and proper in public but engaging in dark rituals involving blood magic behind closed doors...those sorts of things.

I give up on that after some tries. My controller, the tiles and me doesn't work that well together.