inherit
975
0
1,658
cloud9
3,858
Aug 14, 2016 11:41:22 GMT
August 2016
cloud9
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2
sicklyhour015
|
Post by cloud9 on Nov 16, 2022 11:54:08 GMT
|
|
inherit
749
0
3,629
Iddy
3,712
August 2016
iddy
|
Post by Iddy on Nov 16, 2022 13:25:02 GMT
Eh, I disagree on a few points.
1. There is no evidence that Sera rejects her elven identity out of fear of being oppressed. It generally isn't actually explained to us. The most we get is a throwaway line during Trespasser where she mentions that other elves put her down for not being elfy enough.
2. The idea that knowing about Ameridan's true identity could have inspired elves to push back against oppression. That may be partly true, but the impression I get from Minaeve, Briala and the elven healer at Redcliffe is that not all elves admire Inquisitor Lavellan. What some of them see is a privileged fool who doesn't know what regular elves go through.
So it is hard to say how much of a difference would it make to spread the truth about Inquisitor Ameridan.
3. The old "it is racist to have the Dalish be wrong" thing. Honestly, I think that's just realistic. There is no such thing as a civilization without a dirty history, though some are obviously worse than others.
"But they don't do that to the Maker". Well, I'd argue that since he isn't a person like the Evanuris, it is hard to humanize him and give him flaws. And the whole ambiguity is intentionally left there because that is what makes this religion interesting. The Chantry itself, though, is routinely shown to be waist-deep in the mud.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,357
gervaise21
10,564
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Nov 17, 2022 15:46:11 GMT
That is an interesting article. As with Iddy, I'm not entirely convinced by some of the arguments. 1. There is no evidence that Sera rejects her elven identity out of fear of being oppressed. It generally isn't actually explained to us. The most we get is a throwaway line during Trespasser where she mentions that other elves put her down for not being elfy enough. I've mentioned in other threads about the problem I have with Sera and her rejection of everything "elfy". Is it really just interalised racism? It certainly isn't just the Dalish she disapproves of and she thinks the vhenadahl tree is "stupid", although to be fair I seem to recall that Zevran feels the same way and he isn't anti-elf. In fact, he seems to have the very pragmatic approach to the Dalish in that he felt their life wasn't for him but does not denigrate them as a result. The thing is that in Thedas it doesn't really matter if you are "elfy" or not when it comes to the prejudice against elves. So, just because Sera rejects elven culture isn't going to protect her from oppression. She also seems to reject a fair bit of human society too, so I get the sense that it is more a general rebellion against being pigeonholed by other people. As for the religious aspect, she was very disturbed by the appearance of Corypheus because he contradicted Chantry teaching concerning the Black City and said there was no Maker there when he arrived. It is just easier for her to totally reject the Temple of Mythal revelations than it is those of Corypheus, although I dare say that Mother Giselle probably helped her with the latter, arguing against his statements in much the same way that she does to the Inquisitor. So it is hard to say how much of a difference would it make to spread the truth about Inquisitor Ameridan. As a Dalish I always do reveal the truth even though I know it probably wouldn't do much good. Let's face it, he is also a mage, which would also be something of a shock to people. Would it be any more inspiring for city elves to know about Ameridan than it would about Shartan? The latter wasn't just the friend of the Emperor Drakon but of the prophet Andraste. He was wiped from history as well following the Exalted March on the Dales. The late Justinia and then Leliana, if made Divine, intended restoring Shartan to the Chant and, to be honest, that would likely inspire elves more than Ameridan, who they might regard more as a traitor for allying with the Emperor and bringing the original Inquisition under his control. It is a pity we could never ask Sera her opinion on Shartan and what the Chantry did to his memory. 3. The old "it is racist to have the Dalish be wrong" thing. Honestly, I think that's just realistic. There is no such thing as a civilization without a dirty history, though some are obviously worse than others. "But they don't do that to the Maker". I think the only difference here is that they have people react to the former revelations in game but not the latter. Instead, most devout Andrastrian go into denial about Corypheus and the Evanuris, as evidenced by Sera. This is understandable because otherwise they are going to experience an extreme crisis in faith. The Dalish may be wrong about their gods as benign overlords but they were entirely correct that they existed. By contrast, everything we learn in the Temple of Mythal, the Descent and Trespasser completely contradicts what is contained in the Chant concerning the Maker and the creation of the world. If Solas is responsible for the Veil, where does that fit in with Chantry teaching? What about the titans and their relationship to lyrium? So, the idea that the writers were defending monotheism doesn't really stack up. As an outsider looking in, I find it hard to conclude that they support anything other than atheism.
|
|
Cyberstrike
N4
  
is wanting to have some fun!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
XBL Gamertag: cyberstrike nTo
PSN: cyberstrike-nTo
Prime Posts: 1,732
Prime Likes: 467
Posts: 1,811 Likes: 2,922
inherit
634
0
May 14, 2017 17:50:43 GMT
2,922
Cyberstrike
is wanting to have some fun!
1,811
August 2016
cyberstrike
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
cyberstrike nTo
cyberstrike-nTo
1,732
467
|
Post by Cyberstrike on Nov 17, 2022 22:32:36 GMT
That is an interesting article. As with Iddy, I'm not entirely convinced by some of the arguments. 1. There is no evidence that Sera rejects her elven identity out of fear of being oppressed. It generally isn't actually explained to us. The most we get is a throwaway line during Trespasser where she mentions that other elves put her down for not being elfy enough. I've mentioned in other threads about the problem I have with Sera and her rejection of everything "elfy". Is it really just interalised racism? It certainly isn't just the Dalish she disapproves of and she thinks the vhenadahl tree is "stupid", although to be fair I seem to recall that Zevran feels the same way and he isn't anti-elf. In fact, he seems to have the very pragmatic approach to the Dalish in that he felt their life wasn't for him but does not denigrate them as a result. The thing is that in Thedas it doesn't really matter if you are "elfy" or not when it comes to the prejudice against elves. So, just because Sera rejects elven culture isn't going to protect her from oppression. She also seems to reject a fair bit of human society too, so I get the sense that it is more a general rebellion against being pigeonholed by other people. As for the religious aspect, she was very disturbed by the appearance of Corypheus because he contradicted Chantry teaching concerning the Black City and said there was no Maker there when he arrived. It is just easier for her to totally reject the Temple of Mythal revelations than it is those of Corypheus, although I dare say that Mother Giselle probably helped her with the latter, arguing against his statements in much the same way that she does to the Inquisitor.
Some of Sera's attitude is more like "Why should hold on to hate that isn't mine?" The Exalted Marches on the Dales happened hundreds of years before she was born so she sees no reason to hate humans (in general) or the Chantry (in general) for something that the people who were involved in are long dead. Sera also acknowledges that the Exalted Marches on the Dales was wrong but thinks the Dalish are holding to past grudges for no real reason and from her POV that hasn't gotten the Dalish anywhere. I think her biggest issue with other elves is she feels that they all play the victim and are unable and/or unwilling to move forward. She states early on when the Inquisitor talks to her and states that she isn't like other elves, Sera replies "I guess I could walk around barefoot and complain." She also states that she does understand the elves pain and hatred towards humans but she states that holding on to that hatred feels like it's doing most of work for the people who would, will, and do hold down the elves. She's also comes off as more pragmatic towards like the tree in the Alienage she would rather have an apple tree.
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
29,869
Hanako Ikezawa
Fan from 2003 - 2020
22,216
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 18, 2022 0:51:08 GMT
As an outsider looking in, I find it hard to conclude that they support anything other than atheism. Unfortunately I agree. After all they’ve also done this to all the religions in Mass Effect.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,357
gervaise21
10,564
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Nov 19, 2022 10:32:59 GMT
And the whole ambiguity is intentionally left there because that is what makes this religion interesting. I have to admit there is one thing that puzzles me and lends support to the idea of the Maker as existing and that is the behaviour of Faith spirits in game. I would assume that a Faith spirit would be drawn to anyone with strong faith and yet the only people they appear to assist are devout Andrastrians. Why could not a devotee of the Old Gods become the focus of a faith spirit, or a particularly devout Dalish? I suppose in the latter case their general suspicion of anything connected with spirits might prevent this. The Avvar acknowledge that all their "gods" are simply spirits but I am still not clear exactly how that relationship works and whether the spirits they interact with have the same identifiers as those which interact with people of other faiths. Very often they seem to be close to a particular clan and become a patron spirit of that group of people, whilst the more powerful ones have a clear identity and name, being attached to the Avvar as a whole. Could it be the focus on just one particular god that gives the strength of devotion that attracts a Faith spirit? So, having belief in a pantheon of gods somehow diminishes the overall strength of the faith needed to attract the spirit. Or could it be the very fact that faith is maintained without any hard evidence that the god even exists? Is it in any way connected with the belief that the only way to get the Maker to return is for everyone to believe in him? Of course, there is also the paradox in the case of the Seekers that allegedly they are made effectively tranquil, which means that they are "invisible" to spirits, so it would need another person of faith to attract the spirit that restores them. I felt that was never properly explained in DAI. It is possible to empty oneself of emotion whilst contemplating on the divine and that can be the result of intense faith and devotion, which is how Cassandra originally explains the origin of her powers, but later, after reading the Seeker manual, Cassandra directly connects it with the Rite of Tranquility, as does Ameriden, which is something imposed from outside the individual, so it really doesn't make sense to me.
|
|
dayze
N2

Posts: 185 Likes: 77
inherit
1270
0
77
dayze
185
August 2016
dayze
|
Post by dayze on Nov 26, 2022 15:39:07 GMT
As an outsider looking in, I find it hard to conclude that they support anything other than atheism. Unfortunately I agree. After all they’ve also done this to all the religions in Mass Effect. I don't know I mean Spirits "do" exist, in some form or another so do the gods, magic exists etc.....and so on. Even if it's not directly the same as to what their myths and dogma might believe, that would pretty squarely go against the conceit of atheism. If anything its' the ol' "all Religions are True" bit thrown in with "All Religions are Wrong" as well. As for the article's points: Sera and Internalized Racism-Yeah quite possibly, though as to her hatred of traditional elves......that rejection seems to be, from her perspective at least, to fall under the general rejection of being how others believe her to be. Just like how she rejected her adopted mother's culture and believe that she was destined for greater things and social climbing. That societies as a whole expected her to get married and have kids but she's a lesbian, that people like Solas expect her to over throw the ruling class and create a revolution but she's not into that either. Or the bard who I imagine expected her to appreciate a song being made about her but she just found it creepy. They expect her to be a specific way and since she isn't they reject her, so she rejects them back. Honestly if anything it just falls under Sera's generally contrarian nature. If "you" want her to be some way, she's going to be the opposite, just because. Elven God's being wrong and colonist sympathy-Well; Solas doesn't seem to think of them as being "gods" per say but they are still ridiculously powerful beings who on some level did "something" like what is attributed to them. So I don't know if "wrong" is quite the right word, more along the lines of how Flemeth says The Dalish bend their knees too easily, just because something's powerful doesn't mean it needs to be worshipped. By comparison people worship dragon's who are way less powerful as a general deal I would imagine. The Maker maybe more ambiguous but as pointed out, the chantry is the only part of it that is humanized, the church and they seem to be wrong often as not or even more so. Considering how hardcore about their doctrine they tend to be an argument could be made that when they are wrong it's a much greater thing. Looking at how the article ends, referring to Solas and the Qunari as "villains" more or less......they seem to be looking at things in a "black and white" concrete point of view. And that's not how things work in the world of Thedas. Its' often a murkier, more grey area where individual have "some" kind of reasoning for what they do and not just the ol' tie a damsel in distress to the train tracks kind of evil.
|
|
dayze
N2

Posts: 185 Likes: 77
inherit
1270
0
77
dayze
185
August 2016
dayze
|
Post by dayze on Apr 2, 2023 4:19:03 GMT
Coming across a blog talking about Sera and White Women's feminism made me think of this thread again.
Though it also got me thinking about something else going by one of the comments, where Sera calls out Varric's hypocrisy for slumming it with "the poors'" so to speak.
Than I started thinking....wait, isn't Sera doing the same thing? I mean she was raised among the elite and wealthy nobles, why exactly is she going around pretending to be an ill-bred back woods moron who doesn't know what a spoon is?
She's every bit as educated and knowledgeable of that life as Varric and Vivienne are.
|
|
inherit
749
0
3,629
Iddy
3,712
August 2016
iddy
|
Post by Iddy on Apr 4, 2023 15:54:36 GMT
Than I started thinking....wait, isn't Sera doing the same thing? I mean she was raised among the elite and wealthy nobles Since when?
|
|
dayze
N2

Posts: 185 Likes: 77
inherit
1270
0
77
dayze
185
August 2016
dayze
|
Post by dayze on Apr 4, 2023 20:06:17 GMT
Than I started thinking....wait, isn't Sera doing the same thing? I mean she was raised among the elite and wealthy nobles Since when? Looking it up she was adopted by a human noble woman by the name of "Lady Taraline Emmald". She doesn't actually "do" anything with the wealth she inherited but Sera is a rich woman raised by nobility.
|
|
inherit
1587
0
1,636
Walter Black
1,242
Sept 15, 2016 15:02:16 GMT
September 2016
walterblack
|
Post by Walter Black on Apr 8, 2023 0:31:57 GMT
Looking it up she was adopted by a human noble woman by the name of "Lady Taraline Emmald". She doesn't actually "do" anything with the wealth she inherited but Sera is a rich woman raised by nobility. Never thought of it before, but maybe that part of Sera's backstory is a comment of rich celebrities who adopt kids from impoverished nations, and sometimes it doesn't work out the way any of them expected?
|
|
dayze
N2

Posts: 185 Likes: 77
inherit
1270
0
77
dayze
185
August 2016
dayze
|
Post by dayze on Apr 8, 2023 1:50:38 GMT
Looking it up she was adopted by a human noble woman by the name of "Lady Taraline Emmald". She doesn't actually "do" anything with the wealth she inherited but Sera is a rich woman raised by nobility. Never thought of it before, but maybe that part of Sera's backstory is a comment of rich celebrities who adopt kids from impoverished nations, and sometimes it doesn't work out the way any of them expected? That wouldn't surprise me too much. And another reason for Sera to feel like she doesn't belong anywhere, doesn't belong with humans because she's an elf, doesn't belong with elves because she was raised by humans, was poor but got raised by wealth and even though it never took can't really identify as "poor" anymore despite how she might call herself a "lowly".
|
|