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Post by RedCaesar97 on Dec 1, 2022 2:36:53 GMT
n7double07 posted the following comment in the game mechanics and character builds compilation thread. I want to dedicate a thread to his post since I think it deserves its own thread and discussion. Have been reading through a lot of the build threads. Most of them are (understandably) about finding builds that are specifically great for gameplay. I was wondering if anyone has ever done a compilation of bizarre builds; that is, the most odd, niche builds for each class, regardless of how well they actually play. I guess with the MET's class system, this would be a bit hard to do. A system like Andromeda's offers a bit more flexibility, but you're limited to three powers, if I remember correctly. Weapon choice would probably be a strong factor here. I would like this thread to invite discussion and ideas for "bizarre", "odd", or "niche" builds in the series. I also want to spend some time getting my own thoughts down to discuss what I think are the "common" builds, and what would constitute bizarre/odd/niche builds as opposed to perhaps "uncommon" (or not-as-common but not exactly niche/odd/bizarre) builds. My own thoughts and ideas will probably take several posts over several days, so feel free to chime in with your own ideas or thoughts.
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Post by RedCaesar97 on Dec 1, 2022 2:40:05 GMT
My thoughts and observations about builds in Mass Effect 1: In the following post, I will be spending a lot of time discussing what I think are the "common" builds as way to lead into my thoughts about what could constitute bizarre/odd/niche builds as opposed to perhaps "uncommon" (or not-as-common but not exactly niche/odd/bizarre) builds.
In ME1, each class has about two builds that revolve around the class specialization. The bonus talent can differentiate some of these builds a bit, but since each power has its own cooldown, the bonus talent does not significantly change some of these builds or playstyles. The bonus power tends to only add another option to the class, instead of complimenting the existing class toolset or compensating for a class weakness.
NOTE: In the Legendary Edition, the huge duration nerf to Immunity really affects the Soldier and Infiltrator builds. The weapon-gameplay changes mean that you do not have to spend any points in the weapon talents for the caster classes and you can still do decent weapon damage (and weapon DPS), so that changes class builds somewhat as well. I will talk about this a little later.
General build stuff: Most builds will put points into either Charm or Intimidate (not both) to ensure that the character can pass all persuasion checks in the game.
However, you can also ignore the persuasion talents entirely. Most people that ignore Charm and Intimidate will ignore these persuasion talents because they plan to do 3 playthroughs with the same character to max Charm or Intimidate for free. Other people will ignore the persuasion talents because they want to only spend their points into combat-useful talents and do not care (or want) to persuade everybody. I do not consider builds that ignore persuasion talents to be odd/bizarre/niche.
You can also spend points into both Charm and Intimidate, obviously. I do not consider that builds that put points into both persuasion talents to be odd/bizarre/niche. This is more for role-playing reasons, and is reasonable. It may leave fewer points for combat talents, but that is a role-playing choice, not for combat specifically.
Also, you generally have enough points that you will have a decent build by the end of the game. Unless you specifically skip a lot of content, it is very hard to have a "bad" build by the end of the game. Possible perhaps, but very hard. And I do think that "bad" is different from "bizarre/odd/niche".
SOLDIER: - The SHOCK TROOPER specialization improves health and damage protection, reduces Immunity cooldown, and improves Adrenaline Burst. - The COMMANDO specialization improves weapon damage, reduces Immunity cooldown, and improves Marksman and Assassination.
Generally speaking, the class specialization does not change the Soldier a whole lot. Most Soldiers builds are going to max 2-3 weapon talents and get Heavy Armor regardless of the specialization. COMMANDO is rather annoying in that it benefits the Infiltrator more than the Soldier, as the Infiltrator unlocks Sniper Rifles from Pistols while the Soldier has to unlock Sniper Rifles from Assault Rifles.
ORIGINAL ME1: Most builds will max out Immunity, as the specialization and at least one good Medical Exoskeleton armor mod can keep it activated constantly. Soldier can switch weapons, but will mainly stick to one or two weapons based on talents. Adrenaline Burst is used to refresh cooldowns in specific circumstances; cooldown and duration bonuses mean it may not be used a lot depending on weapons used (not really needed when focusing on Assault Rifles and Pistols).
I believe on the old BSN forums, I think I saw one user say he would not put any points into Immunity and put more points into weapons. I do not know if I would call this bizarre/odd/niche (I do not think it is bad per se), but I would say it is certainly uncommon. I suppose using certain bonus powers could be considered bizarre/odd/niche, but like I wrote earlier I think bonus powers do not change the build or playstyle very much in Mass Effect 1 because of how cooldowns work.
ME1 LEGENDARY EDITION: In my opinion, you can skip Immunity since the big duration nerf makes it mostly useless. This frees up points for weapon talents, meaning you can invest in at least one more weapon. And with the weapon talent changes, you could max all four weapon talents and actually rotate them. I suppose using certain bonus powers could be considered bizarre/odd/niche, but like I wrote earlier I think bonus powers do not change the build or playstyle very much in Mass Effect 1 because of how cooldowns work.
BONUS POWERS: The obvious best bonus powers would be Lift or Singularity for the best crowd-control, followed by Throw. But some players greatly dislike biotic powers on a non-biotic class, so they take a tech power instead. I do not think any of this would be considered odd/bizarre/niche. The closest thing to odd/bizarre would be taking Stasis and investing a lot of points into it since only the Adept and Sentinel can learn to damage enemies in Stasis (with the Bastion specialization). But if you plan to take Stasis in ME2 or ME3 as a bonus power, then taking it in ME1 makes some sense for continuity.
ADEPT: - The BASTION specialization improves biotic cooldowns, Stasis, and Barrier. - The NEMESIS specialization improves biotic power damage, Warp and Lift.
Generally speaking, the class specialization will affect your build somewhat. With Bastion, you will want to spend at least 1 point into Stasis, since it allows you to damage enemies in Stasis (1 point is generally enough). Otherwise, Nemesis may not change it a lot, unless you think Bastion/Nemesis bonuses mean you want to spend more or fewer points into Warp, Lift, and/or Barrier.
ORIGINAL ME1: Most builds take a weapon as a bonus power -- typically Assault Rifles -- either as a replacement for Pistols or to have two weapons in case of enemy Sabotage. You may also see some tech powers, typically Overload (improved Shields) from what I have seen in the past, although Sabotage (to pair with Liara's Overload) or Damping (to prevent enemy Damping) could be useful.
ME1 LEGENDARY EDITION: I do not see any major changes from the original ME1, except that Warp seems rather pointless now since enemies are also affected by the Immunity duration nerf. This makes Nemesis less appealing, but I would not consider Nemesis-Warp builds odd/niche/bizarre as you can still use it effectively and Warp still debuffs enemy health. Also since every class can use weapons without restrictions, you may see less weapon talents as bonus powers, but since weapon talents provide weapon damage bonuses, you will still see them a lot I think.
BONUS POWERS: I do not consider any bonus power on the Adept to be odd/bizarre/niche. Most players seem fine with a tech power on a biotic class since Shepard always has an Omni Tool and tech powers are just Omni Tool abilities.
Ultimately, I cannot think of any bizarre/odd/niche builds for the Adept. Maybe Nemesis builds that max Stasis could be considered bizarre?
ENGINEER: - The OPERATIVE specialization improves tech cooldowns, Sabotage, and Overload - The MEDIC specialization improves First Aid and Medicine.
Generally speaking, the class specialization will affect your build. The Operative Specialization will improve all your tech abilities, so you will spend points into Electronics (Overload), Decryption (Sabotage), AI Hacking, and Damping. The Medic specialization improves your medical abilities and allows First Aid to revive knocked-out squadmates; this generally means Medic Engineers do not spend any points into Unity.
ORIGINAL ME1: Most builds take a weapon as a bonus power -- typically Assault Rifles -- either as a replacement for Pistols or to have two weapons in case of enemy Sabotage. Since some players greatly dislike biotic powers on a non-biotic class, weapon talents are the most obvious choice.
ME1 LEGENDARY EDITION: I do not see any change from the original ME1.
BONUS POWERS: As stated earlier, some players greatly dislike biotic powers on a non-biotic class, so they would take a weapon talent instead instead. I do not think any biotic bonus power would be considered odd/bizarre/niche. The closest thing to odd/bizarre would be taking Stasis and investing a lot of points into it since only the Adept and Sentinel can learn to damage enemies in Stasis (with the Bastion specialization). But if you plan to take Stasis in ME2 or ME3 as a bonus power, then taking it in ME1 makes some sense for continuity.
VANGUARD - The SHOCK TROOPER specialization improves Barrier and Adrenaline Burst. - The NEMESIS specialization improves biotic power damage, Warp and Lift.
Generally speaking, the Vanguard is point-starved since it has such a good selection of powers; the best powers are generally unlocked using less-appealing (but still good/useful) powers. Lots of ways to build the Vanguard. Shock Trooper is generally the best specialization in my opinion, but you can make Nemesis work too.
ORIGINAL ME1: The general consensus says to take Singularity as a bonus power and build it a bit like an Adept, ignoring shotguns. Adrenaline Burst can make it a better Adept in a few ways. But you can still build it however you want, as the bonus power can change the Vanguard a little more than the "pure" classes.
ME1 LEGENDARY EDITION: With the changes to weapon handling, you can ignore Pistols completely, freeing up some points for your other powers. Or you can still build it like you did previously.
BONUS POWERS: Most Vanguards will take another biotic power, although Stasis is pretty low on the list since Adept and Sentinel can do it better as I have previously mentioned. Some players will take a weapon talent as a bonus power, turing it into a biotic soldier. Tech powers on the Vanguard are pretty bizarre/odd/niche. Note that I have put a tech talent on a ME1 Vanguard before, but that was because I was planning to take Energy Drain for a weird ME3 Vanguard build and I wanted some continuity (that did not involve starting it as a Sentinel in ME1).
INFILTRATOR - The COMMANDO specialization improves weapon damage, reduces Immunity cooldown, and improves Marksman and Assassination. - The OPERATIVE specialization improves tech cooldowns, Sabotage, and Overload
Generally speaking, the class specialization can greatly affect your Infiltrator build. Electronics (Overload) and Decryption (Sabotage) should always be a build staple along with armor (Medium Armor) on all builds. Commando Infiltrators will focus more on weapons, while Operative Infiltrators will focus more on tech skills.
ORIGINAL ME1: Most builds will max out Immunity regardless of specialization. Commando with at least one good Medical Exoskeleton armor mod can keep it activated constantly; Operative requires two of the best Medical Exoskeleton mods. Infiltrators use Pistols at a minimum, and may put points into Sniper Rifles (more on that later).
ME1 LEGENDARY EDITION: In my opinion, you can skip Immunity since the big duration nerf makes it mostly useless. This frees up points for other talents.
BONUS POWERS: Taking Shotguns or Assault Rifles can give Commando Infiltrators a third weapon, turning into a Soldier that can unlock everything itself. Taking AI Hacking or maybe Medicine can turn an Operative Infiltrator into an Engineer with better shooting. With the Immunity nerf, Soldier and Engineer can stand out a little more now, although I think Commando Infiltrator with three weapon talents is still a little appealing than Soldier since you can still hack/unlock everything yourself.
As stated earlier, some players greatly dislike biotic powers on a non-biotic class, so they would take a weapon or tech power instead. I do not think any of this would be considered odd/bizarre/niche. The closest thing to odd/bizarre would be taking Stasis and investing a lot of points into it since only the Adept and Sentinel can learn to damage enemies in Stasis (with the Bastion specialization). But if you plan to take Stasis in ME2 or ME3 as a bonus power, then taking it in ME1 makes some sense for continuity.
SENTINEL - The BASTION specialization improves biotic cooldowns, Stasis, and Barrier. - The MEDIC specialization improves First Aid and Medicine.
Generally speaking, the class specialization can change your build somewhat. With Bastion, you will want to spend at least 1 point into Stasis, since it allows you to damage enemies in Stasis (1 point is generally enough). The Medic specialization improves your medical abilities and allows First Aid to revive knocked-out squadmates; this generally means Medic Sentinels do not spend any points into Unity. Most players I havd seen prefer Bastion.
ORIGINAL ME1: Since Sentinel can get only Basic Marksman, taking a weapon as a bonus power -- typically Assault Rifles -- is generally a good idea. That being said, Singularity can turn Sentinel into an Adept that can hack/unlock. Or take a tech power like AI Hacking and it can become somewhat of a biotic Engineer.
ME1 LEGENDARY EDITION: With changes to weapon handling, taking another biotic or tech power is more appealing. Bastion Sentinel with Singularity is like an Adept that can unlock but without needing Warp first (less useful in the Legendary Edition with the Immunity nerf).
BONUS POWERS: Sentinel can take any bonus power and it fits the class just fine.
Ultimately, I cannot think of any bizarre/odd/niche builds for the Sentinel. Maybe Medic builds that max Stasis or have 1-point Medicine (Neural Shock) could be considered bizarre?
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Post by n7double07 on Dec 1, 2022 5:07:50 GMT
Thanks for writing out your thoughts.
Makes sense it would be hard in ME1; gameplay can be pretty trivial at points. The notion of a build in terms of viability seems like it would be the most pertinent to ME2, where combat arguably requires the most strategy and is the most sensitive to seemingly slight changes.
ME3 appears to offer the most freedom in construction, partly because the "base" difficultly is lower than in 2 (hence you can make more work,) and simply because there are more powers and skill tree divergences.
Will try and do some more brainstorming about this.
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Post by RedCaesar97 on Dec 6, 2022 0:13:27 GMT
Sorry for the delay since my last post. Writing something like this takes time and I have been jotting down my thoughts over the span of a few days. Plus I actually want to spend some time actually playing games instead of just thinking about them. Hopefully I have managed to properly organize my thoughts and made them coherent enough to be useful. My thoughts and observations about builds in Mass Effect 2: In the following post, I will be spending a lot of time discussing what I think are the "common" builds as way to lead into my thoughts about what could constitute bizarre/odd/niche builds as opposed to perhaps "uncommon" (or not-as-common but not exactly niche/odd/bizarre) builds. NOTE: I will not be discussing modded characters. Modded characters may have extra points, different power sets or extra powers, or different sets of weapons. Modded characters are outside the scope of this discussion. ME2 build structures: Unless you are modding or exploiting glitches, you will have 51 talent points at max level. If you are min-maxing, then your build will max 4 powers (40 points), max the class passive (10 points), plus 1 bonus point. When min-maxing, each class essentially has the following build structures: Power | Build 1 | Build 2 | Build 3 | Build 4 | Build 5 | Power 1 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 1 | Power 2 | 4 | 4 | 0 (or 1) | 1 (or 0) | 0 | Power 3 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | Power 4 | 4 | 1 | 4 | 4 | 4 | Power 5 | 0 (or 1) | 0 | 4 | 0 (or 1) | 4 | Passive | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | Bonus Power | 1 (or 0) | 4 | 1 (or 0) | 4 | 4 |
I suppose that any build in ME2 that is not a min-max build -- with leftover points that cannot be spent -- can be considered bizarre/odd/niche. Of the few builds I have seen or tried that are not min-maxing, it is because the player is either trying to use every power available (but not all at an optimal level), or are forced to spend points into powers they do not want so they can unlock the powers they do want to use. In ME2, each class has 1 or 2 builds that are used a lot. These common builds typically do not rely on a specific bonus weapon (but there are some exceptions). I suppose anything outside of these common builds could be considered odd/bizarre/niche, but I would argue that there is a difference between "uncommon" and actually odd/bizarre/niche. In my opinion, the difference between uncommon and odd/bizarre/niche will mostly come down to the choice of bonus power. For example, an uncommon build will use a "good" and frequently-used bonus power that may not be commonly taken on the class, while an odd/bizarre/niche build will use a good but highly-situational bonus power. Bonus powersIn ME2, bonus powers are squadmate loyalty powers, unlocked for all Shepards after completing a squadmate's loyalty mission for the first time. Most bonus powers can be considered good powers. Players will use some bonus powers more frequently than others. Bonus powers can be used to cover a perceived class weakness, compliment a perceived class strength, or add a new gameplay tactic. 1-point wonders: - Stasis (May not unlock in the Legendary Edition without modding). Biotic power, can be used on a variety of builds/classes. - Neural Shock. Tech power, generally pointless on biotic classes. - Slam. Biotic power, can be used on a variety of builds/classes. Ammo powers: - Warp Ammo. Probably the most-used bonus ammo power for its utility: bonus damage versus health, armor, barriers, as well as bonus damage to enemies lifted by biotics. - AP Ammo. Used by some players instead of Warp Ammo for its higher anti-health damage. Also does some bonus armor damage. - Shredder Ammo. One of the worst bonus powers in the game since it is anti-organic health only and not much more damaging than AP Ammo. Shield restoration: - Fortification. Worst bonus power in the game. Does same thing as other shield restoration powers but is a combat power and does not benefit from cooldown upgrades. - Geth Shield Boost. Tech power, benefits from Tech Cooldown upgrade. - Barrier. Biotic power, benefits from Biotic Cooldown upgrade. Grenades: - Flashbang Grenade. Combat power, can be useful with some builds/classes. Stops enemy powers and guns for a duration. - Inferno Grenade. In my opinion, this power is generally useless on all classes. Anti-armor but overshadowed by other powers. Has large radius, but radius is in clusters so can miss enemies within radius. I think this is a bad power, not a niche power. Other: - Energy Drain. Tech, anti-shield, can restore Shepard's shields. Used primarily as an Overload substitute on several classes. - Reave. Biotic, anti-barrier and anti-armor, can restore Shepard's health. Useful on several classes. - Dominate. Biotic(?) power. Essentially AI Hacking but for organics. Probably the most niche bonus power since it is useful but does not exactly mesh well with existing class powersets. SoldierThe Soldier class is built around shooting weapons all or most of the time. All common Soldier builds will max its signature power Adrenaline Rush, along with Incendiary Ammo and Disruptor Ammo. Most builds will then either take Cryo Ammo for squadmates, or Warp Ammo to help with sniping. These builds will leave 1 point for a bonus power or Concussive Shot; most will take the bonus power. In my opinion, niche builds will use Concussive Shot. Concussive Shot has a long cooldown (6 seconds), I assuming because of its anti-barrier properties (400% damage versus barriers). However, its anti-barrier capability is not good -- Heavy evolution WILL NOT fully strip enemy barriers at most game difficulties. It does have knockdown -- not as much force as Throw -- but it does do more damage than Throw. Bonus powers can change the way the Soldier plays, such as Slam for priming Warp bombs, but I would not consider most of these powers to be niche/odd/bizarre. Adrenaline Rush can get a 3-second cooldown, meaning most powers will interfere with Adrenaline Rush spam. Neural Shock and Slam have base 3-second cooldowns giving them some utility that does not interfere much with Adrenaline Rush. You may see Flashbang Grenade or even Inferno Grenade since they are combat powers and therefore not really niche. One interesting note is that Soldier is the only class with a min-max build that can have 1 point into its signature power (Adrenaline Rush). I have not seen anyone with this build yet although I have thought about running this myself at one point for fun, probably with Flashbang Grenade as the bonus power. It could be considered niche but also clearly suboptimal and a one-off build for someone who has played the game a lot and wants something different. EngineerAll common Engineer builds will max its signature power, Combat Drone. The main Engineer build will max Overload and Incinerate for stripping defenses and crowd-control. The remaining points are left to Cryo Blast and a bonus power. You will mostly see a 1-point Neural Shock for early crowd-control and then a max Cryo Blast late game. A variant of this build will have a 1-point Cryo Blast (point dump) and maxed Area Neural Shock. Another variant of this build will leave the 1 point in Cryo and max out another bonus power instead such as Flashbang Grenade. Another defense-stripping build would have Reave as a bonus power for barrier stripping, either forgoing Cryo Blast or Incinerate. Reave is a biotic power though, so not everyone likes putting a biotic power on the base tech-only class. I have done this build but do not know if others have done it, so not sure if niche or just uncommon. Personally, I really like a 1-point Overload (for detonating pyros), and maxing out Drone, Cryo, AI Hacking, and the bonus power. My favorite bonus powers on this build are Dominate so I can hack any enemy with health, or Slam for some warp-bombing action. I have also ran with Stasis and Flashbang Grenade, neither of which was as much fun as I initially thought it would be with this build. I am unsure if this type of build would be niche, or just uncommon, as I do not know how many players have run these types of builds. AdeptAll common Adept builds max out their signature power Singularity. A common Adept build will max Warp, Throw, and Pull, with 1-point for a bonus power, typically Stasis or Warp Ammo, or maybe Slam (unused since Pull exists) or Barrier as a panic button. Other common Adept builds will put 1 point into Throw (point dump) and instead max the bonus power: either Energy Drain for shield stripping, or Warp Ammo for extra weapon damage versus lifted enemies. You may also see some Barrier bonus power usage as well, but not as much on higher difficulties because of how much damage you take and because it has a long cooldown (base 12 seconds). You may also see Throw swapped out for Shockwave, although I have no idea if that would be uncommon or niche. Shockwave is considered bad on Insanity by many players, and most players perfer other powers instead. I do not know if Shockwave sees more use with the Adept on lower difficulties or not, so I do not know if it can be considered niche or just uncommon. Beyond Energy Drain and Warp Ammo (which can be common on the Adept), it is highly unlikely that will see any other tech or combat powers used on the Adept. At least I have not seen other people mention them in relation to Adept builds. InfiltratorAll common Infiltrator builds will max the signature power Tactical Cloak. The two most common builds I have seen: - A Mantis/Widow one-shot sniper build, that uses Disruptor Ammo and Warp Ammo, with Squad Cryo Ammo for squadmates. - A balanced tech + shooting build (typically with shotguns as a bonus power), that uses Disruptor Ammo and Cryo Ammo, with max Incinerate and 1-point Neural Shock. Infiltrator is surprisingly versatile. I have seen (and played) with builds that use Reave and Flashbang bonus powers. I would mark these builds as uncommon instead of niche. I tried a casting Infiltrator once that used Incinerate, Energy Drain, and AI Hacking, but it felt like a discount Engineer so I would not recommend it (feels more bad than niche). I think if I did not min-max (or if the game allowed me to avoid cloak), I could put points into Cryo Ammo which would make it better. You could swap out Energy Drain with Dominate for some enemy controlling fun, but it still feels like a discount Engineer build; pretty sure I someone mention they did this. I think these builds are niche, or at least a 1-off experiment. I played around with the balanced tech/shooting build but swapped Neural Shock for Slam. That was fun. I suppose that would be niche. VanguardThe two most common Vanguard builds: - Charge-heavy Vanguard: Charge!, Incendiary Ammo for Shepard, Cryo Ammo for squadmates, and the High Lord Claymore. Class passive evolution may change but these Vanguards just tend to dump their remaining points in Shockwave and the bonus power. Slam and Stasis are typically used as 1-point wonders and are rarely (situationally) used. You might see a maxed Slam with 1-point Shockwave (not used). - A balanced build: with Incendiary Ammo, Shockwave, and Pull, with Stasis as a 1-point bonus power. Cryo Ammo is not used since it adversely interferes with biotics. Bonus weapon will vary. There will be some small deviations with some of these builds. Reave is the other most common bonus power I think with the Vanguard, for those players who have trouble with the charge lifestyle. I have seen some players mention Barrier, but I would mark this as uncommon instead of niche. I have seen one player work a Vanguard around Dominate as a bonus power: definitely niche. Taking a tech power would definitely be niche/odd/bizarre. I have done this once before (unless I switched the class to Sentinel?), but only because I planned to take a tech bonus power in ME3 (Energy Drain) for a weird Vanguard build so it was about consistency as a role-playing thing. Note that I am not adverse to switching a character's class between games depending on the situation. SentinelTwo most common Sentinel builds: - Assault Sentinel: Assault Armor with a shotgun. What other powers? - Caster Sentinel: Throw, Warp, Tech Armor (any evolution), Overload, and 1-point Stasis/Slam/Warp Ammo. An uncommon Caster Sentinel build switches out Warp for Cryo Blast. Other uncommon builds will see Warp switched out for Reave or Warp Ammo, or Overload switched out for Energy Drain. I think anything outside of these builds would be niche. I suppose you could add Geth Shield Boost or Barrier for even more shields, but that just seems dumb instead of bizarre/odd.
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Post by n7double07 on Dec 6, 2022 5:38:08 GMT
One I thought of is a Slam Infiltrator or Soldier that uses Cryo Ammo in ME3. Cryo Ammo is used to prime an enemy, then Slam is used to drop them on a nearby group and freeze them.
Too bad this isn't possible in ME2, considering the enemy layout is much less diffuse.
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Post by n7double07 on Dec 7, 2022 3:32:53 GMT
Found someone who did it
Edit: and apparently you saw this too, 8 years ago! lol
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Post by n7double07 on Dec 7, 2022 3:46:38 GMT
This channel has quite a few good ones. Playlist linked below; can reach the rest of the channel through there: Build PlaylistI have to say, the Barrier Infiltrator is the most creative one I've seen thus far. This person played the Prothean Soldier I had mentioned in the other thread. I never went through all of their vids.
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Post by RedCaesar97 on Dec 11, 2022 19:11:52 GMT
I am still working on a post with my thoughts for Mass Effect 3, but it is taking longer than expected.
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Post by capn233 on Dec 15, 2022 0:57:15 GMT
I'm a second class Mass Effect citizen these days since I still don't have LE. Which also means nobody cares about my opinions on things, heh. When I first played ME1 OG, the first character was a Soldier and I might not have invested much at all in Immunity, if at all. At least my recollection is that I didn't use it and thought Shield Boost and weapon talents had to be better. But after playing original so many times it is hard for me to imagine that talent being pointless now for LE, even with a duration nerf. But as hipster build on Soldier or Infiltrator, certainly makes sense. ME2 LE as far as I can tell the real difference is just improved ammo drops and then getting DLC guns from stores. Anyway, as far as Soldier with only 1 pt in ARush, the build I would certainly run would use Reave as the bonus power. A Reave soldier even with ARush would be using Reave at least as much or more than ARush anyway, at least that is my recollection when I played that type of character. Otherwise I think the issue for ME2 is that since they made the trademark powers more unique and powerful, it is hard to make unusual non-trademark based builds that aren't just nerfed for the sake of nerfing. Adept maybe the least though since Singularity's effects can be somewhat duplicated with some combination of Stasis or Pull. For ME2 Infiltrator, I still recommend Area Incinerate before maxing Cloak and even tried to give that advice on reddit a few times recently. Partly because I think Cloak isn't so great when you don't have the Widow. Sentinel or Vanguard in ME2 can't hardly imagine skipping the trademark, as otherwise they are too similar to Adepts possibly. I guess Vanguard gets a shotgun to start at least. ME3 and the combo system somewhat homogenizes the gameplay, so even with sort of trademarks somehow the classes don't seem all that different. Except for maybe Vanguard. I played No Charge Nova Guard, pure hipster stuff. What is funny about ME3 to me is at release it seemed like nearly all the guns were terrible, but then the base guns were largely buffed and the DLC guns happened. By the end some of the guns were so powerful it felt like the character builds didn't hardly matter.
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Post by n7double07 on Dec 15, 2022 15:01:55 GMT
ME3 and the combo system somewhat homogenizes the gameplay, so even with sort of trademarks somehow the classes don't seem all that different. Except for maybe Vanguard. I played No Charge Nova Guard, pure hipster stuff. What is funny about ME3 to me is at release it seemed like nearly all the guns were terrible, but then the base guns were largely buffed and the DLC guns happened. By the end some of the guns were so powerful it felt like the character builds didn't hardly matter. I feel you there. Originally I liked ME3's gameplay the best by far, but now that I've begun playing on Insanity and gotten pretty good at the games, there's a lot about ME2 that I'm starting to appreciate and miss in 3.
That same-y feeling you mention is starting to kick in when I play 3. Infiltrator and Vanguard are the only ones that really shake up the core gameplay, and in general, I think they're the two classes that benefited the most from the changes to the core mechanics going from 2 to 3. The rest of the classes basically got worse (as in less enjoyable, they're all overpowered in 3.)
Late edit: I think Engineer and Soldier benefited from changes in 3 too to an extent, but they also got worse in noticeable ways.
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Post by capn233 on Dec 17, 2022 1:11:08 GMT
ME3 and the combo system somewhat homogenizes the gameplay, so even with sort of trademarks somehow the classes don't seem all that different. Except for maybe Vanguard. I played No Charge Nova Guard, pure hipster stuff. What is funny about ME3 to me is at release it seemed like nearly all the guns were terrible, but then the base guns were largely buffed and the DLC guns happened. By the end some of the guns were so powerful it felt like the character builds didn't hardly matter. I feel you there. Originally I liked ME3's gameplay the best by far, but now that I've begun playing on Insanity and gotten pretty good at the games, there's a lot about ME2 that I'm starting to appreciate and miss in 3.
That same-y feeling you mention is starting to kick in when I play 3. Infiltrator and Vanguard are the only ones that really shake up the core gameplay, and in general, I think they're the two classes that benefited the most from the changes to the core mechanics going from 2 to 3. The rest of the classes basically got worse (as in less enjoyable, they're all overpowered in 3.)
Yeah Vanguard and Infiltrator got trademarks that were pretty unique for ME2. Vanguard maybe benefited more since Charge changes up the playstyle quite a bit.
Back to ME3, every once in a while I think my comments may seem too critical. ME1 did have some of that same-y feel going on, although I think this had to do with an attempt at purism relative to the lore they had cooked up around biotics and tech, and what was available. Guns in a class were the same, and in theory everybody could use any of them. But really without the "spectre" guns they were terrible (for damage anyway) on classes without the training.
Anyway, I agree with a sentiment that it is difficult to think up a lot of unusual builds in the OT since often by the end of the game you have most all of the core talents for your class. Maybe I also lack some imagination. I suppose Andromeda expands this, and maybe cheats since there is only one Ryder class really.
Progressions are pretty important though, and at certain stages of the games there might be more variety just due to lack of points. Even if talent unlock requirements sort of messes with this a little.
For ME1, I don't know if I could do an Adept without Advanced Lift somewhere on Therum (or first story planet otherwise). Actually an Adept w/o Lift is something I might not have ever done in ME1, not sure that I want to though.
I am hung up a little on Immunity too. In OT I know it is possible, but it made encounters with snipers a whole lot simpler. Where snipers nerfed in LE, or are they the same?
Basic NS, or Basic Unity, or Basic Damping are things I also might like to have early, but I also might not even take those lines past that the whole game. NS might be funny for Therum, at least the last fight.
Likewise for ME2, if you look at builds for Horizon may get some variety. If Cryo and Incinerate didn't require 3 points in Disruptor and Cloak, I might personally try to build an Infiltrator with Incineration Blast and Squad Cryo Ammo there... But I think at Level 12 you could only do Incineration Blast and Cryo 3 if you skipped passive. Which probably wouldn't be the best.
If giving up Charge on the Vanguard, I don't know that I would want to do anything other than just spam Area Reave. Pull (a bread and butter biotic in my book) is nested under Charge then Shockwave, so hard to get it there. Can do Squad Cryo + Pull 1 + Bonus 1 I think by Horizon, but that would be a pretty weird and probably tricky.
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Post by n7double07 on Dec 17, 2022 2:43:03 GMT
Yeah Vanguard and Infiltrator got trademarks that were pretty unique for ME2. Vanguard maybe benefited more since Charge changes up the playstyle quite a bit.
Back to ME3, every once in a while I think my comments may seem too critical. ME1 did have some of that same-y feel going on, although I think this had to do with an attempt at purism relative to the lore they had cooked up around biotics and tech, and what was available. Guns in a class were the same, and in theory everybody could use any of them. But really without the "spectre" guns they were terrible (for damage anyway) on classes without the training.
Anyway, I agree with a sentiment that it is difficult to think up a lot of unusual builds in the OT since often by the end of the game you have most all of the core talents for your class. Maybe I also lack some imagination. I suppose Andromeda expands this, and maybe cheats since there is only one Ryder class really.
Progressions are pretty important though, and at certain stages of the games there might be more variety just due to lack of points. Even if talent unlock requirements sort of messes with this a little.
For ME1, I don't know if I could do an Adept without Advanced Lift somewhere on Therum (or first story planet otherwise). Actually an Adept w/o Lift is something I might not have ever done in ME1, not sure that I want to though.
I am hung up a little on Immunity too. In OT I know it is possible, but it made encounters with snipers a whole lot simpler. Where snipers nerfed in LE, or are they the same?
Basic NS, or Basic Unity, or Basic Damping are things I also might like to have early, but I also might not even take those lines past that the whole game. NS might be funny for Therum, at least the last fight.
Likewise for ME2, if you look at builds for Horizon may get some variety. If Cryo and Incinerate didn't require 3 points in Disruptor and Cloak, I might personally try to build an Infiltrator with Incineration Blast and Squad Cryo Ammo there... But I think at Level 12 you could only do Incineration Blast and Cryo 3 if you skipped passive. Which probably wouldn't be the best.
If giving up Charge on the Vanguard, I don't know that I would want to do anything other than just spam Area Reave. Pull (a bread and butter biotic in my book) is nested under Charge then Shockwave, so hard to get it there. Can do Squad Cryo + Pull 1 + Bonus 1 I think by Horizon, but that would be a pretty weird and probably tricky.
Vanguard and Infiltrator shook up the gameplay the most in 2, yeah, by virtue of their class-specific abilities. I'd say this trend continues into 3 bc advanced mobility broadens the scope of those abilities in particular. All the other class-specific abilities got nerfed egregiously, except maybe Adrenaline Rush(?) I barely ever play Soldier and have never really compared the 2 and 3 versions. I also haven't played 2 as a Soldier specifically in years.
As far as snipers go in ME1 LE, I'm not sure. My first run in ME1 LE was done as an Infiltrator. I hadn't played ME1 in years prior and don't recall ever using snipers much back in the day. I used the Spectre sniper with incendiary rounds and it felt ridiculously OP, so maybe not?
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Post by RedCaesar97 on Dec 17, 2022 15:16:26 GMT
I am hung up a little on Immunity too. In OT I know it is possible, but it made encounters with snipers a whole lot simpler. Where snipers nerfed in LE, or are they the same? Enemy snipers in ME1 can still one-shot you if you do not have enough health + shields + damage protection. As for sniping as Shepard, any class can one-shot basic enemies on Insanity with headshot using a Naginata or HMWSR (Spectre) sniper rifle so long as you have two Scram Rails mods equipped.
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Post by RedCaesar97 on Dec 17, 2022 16:31:00 GMT
My thoughts and observations about builds in Mass Effect 3: In the following post, I will be spending a lot of time discussing what I think are the "common" builds as way to lead into my thoughts about what could constitute bizarre/odd/niche builds as opposed to perhaps "uncommon" (or not-as-common but not exactly niche/odd/bizarre) builds.
I had a lot of trouble writing this post. The majority of the ME3 discussion after its release was centered around the story/endings and multiplayer. There was not a lot of single player build discussion after launch and so I am relying a lot on my intuition and what few discussions and videos I have seen.
NOTE 1: I will not be discussing modded characters. Modded characters may have different power sets or extra powers (including multiplayer-only powers). Modded characters are outside the scope of this discussion.
NOTE 2: "Challenge" builds will also not be discussed. "Challenge" builds are builds or playstyles that a player imposes upon themself for a challenge. Challenge builds or playstyles impose a challenge by restricting what the player can do with a build or playstyle according to a ruleset. This is different from the player imposing limitations on themself within a larger set of creative freedom. For example, "beat the game using only one power" is challenge, while maxing only three available powers is a self-limitation if you want to play without pausing when using a controller. I hope I have adequately explained what I feel is a difference in philosphy between "challenge" and "limited" builds.
ME3 build structures: In Mass Effect 3, each class has 6 class powers, 1 bonus power, and 2 class passives (a "Mastery" passive tree and Fitness). Each class has two class-unique signature powers (Soldier has three). At max level, you will have enough points to max out all but one talent tree.
If you are familiar with ME3 game mechanics, most common builds and playstyles revolve around killing enemies by either shooting everything with one or two weapons, or by using power combos. Any powers that do not help with shooting or power combos are largely ignored. Most common builds will rely on only 3-4 powers. Most common builds will use one or both/all class-signature powers.
I suppose anything outside of these common builds could be considered odd/bizarre/niche, but I would argue that there is a difference between "uncommon" and actually odd/bizarre/niche.
NOTE: Most builds will use the same evolutions for each power passive trees, with some deviations based on preference or game difficulty selection. While a build may include "non-standard" evolutions, these will not be discussed as they will not change the build enough to be considered niche/odd/bizarre. In my opinion, the inclusion or exclusion of a power itself will cause a build to be niche/odd/bizarre, not the evolutions chosen.
In my opinion, a niche build is more about what powers you do not use (or spend points on), than about what powers you do use. For Soldiers, Infiltrators, and Vanguards specifically, builds that do not incorporate their main signature power (Adrenaline Rush, Tactical Cloak, and Biotic Charge) can be considered niche/odd/bizarre.
Melee builds Each class can be built around melee. Melee builds can be considered niche, but if you are building around melee, then you are more likely doing a melee-only (or mostly-melee) challenge, which -- in my opinion -- makes it a challenge build instead of a niche build. But this opinion is certainly subjective.
Bonus powers In ME3, bonus powers are squadmate powers, unlocked for all Shepards after completing certain conversations with the squadmate. Most bonus powers can be considered good powers. Players will use some bonus powers more frequently than others. Bonus powers can be used to cover a perceived class weakness, compliment a perceived class strength, or add a new gameplay tactic.
- Fortification: The best tech armor variant/replacement. Used in a lot of common builds for damage reduction and general power damage. Required for melee builds. - Carnage: Existing class powers or bonus powers can do what Carnage does but better. Used exclusively on niche/odd/bizarre builds.
- Stasis: Mainly used on biotic classes. In my opinion, more uncommon than niche/odd/bizarre. - Warp Ammo: Used only on Adept or Sentinel builds. Pointless on other classes.
- AP Ammo: Used on the pure caster classes. Pointless on the other classes. - Proximity Mine: Only used on some non-biotic classes.
- Slam: Overshadowed by other powers. Used on niche/odd/bizarre builds. - Dark Channel: Overshadowed by Reave. Used on niche/odd/bizarre builds.
- Defense Matrix: Can be used on all classes for restoring shields on purge. Mostly used on tech classes. On other classes, can be considered uncommon, but not odd/bizarre/niche. - Decoy: One of the worst -- if not the worst -- bonus powers in the game.
- Marksman: Used in some uncommon or niche builds. - Inferno Grenade: Used in some uncommon or niche builds.
- Reave: Most commonly-taken biotic bonus power. - Barrier: Mainly used on biotic classes, but generally overshadowed by Fortification.
- Energy Drain: Most commonly-taken tech bonus power. - Defense Drone: Overshadowed by most other bonus powers since it lacks a lot of utility. Used in some uncommon or niche builds.
- Flare: Because of its long cooldown, it is relegated to some niche builds. - Lash: Good power, but in my opinion is more uncommon than niche. Generally ignored on Adept and Vanguard since they have Pull.
- Dominate: Generally ignored except on some niche builds.
Soldier Most Soldier builds will use Adrenaline Rush and Incendiary Ammo, along with either Concussive Shot or Frag Grenade (or possibly both). Some sniper builds will use Disruptor Ammo. For some uncommon builds, some players ignore Adrenaline Rush and use Marksman instead.
Common bonus powers: Fortification and probably Inferno Grenades. Uncommon bonus powers: Proximity Mine, Energy Drain, Lash, and Reave.
Nice/odd/bizarre builds will focus Cryo Ammo or some other bonus power. Other niche/odd/bizarre builds will ignore Adrenaline Rush.
Engineer I honestly have no idea what makes a common ME3 Engineer build, since I have seen few people play or discuss the class. Overload and Incinerate are obvious powers for common builds, with +200% weapon weight. After that, one or two of the following would round out the build: - Sabotage - Cryo Blast - Combat Drone and/or Sentry Turret
I know that the above list contains all the remaining Engineer powers, but I have no idea what people gravite towards when they play Engineer. Sabotage + Overload + Incinerate is the actual best powerset for Engineer, but if you do not know how to properly utilize Backfire (Sabotage) for combos, then you will very likely ignore Sabotage and use other powers instead.
Most common (or best) bonus powers for the Engineer: Fortification or Defense Matrix, or AP Ammo.
Niche builds for Engineer will ignore Overload and Incinerate completely. Some examples: - Construct-focused with Combat Drone, Defense Drone, and Sentry Turret. - Biotic bonus power like Reave to combo with biotic squadmates. - Distract/control build with Drone and/or Turret + Sabotage + Dominate. Also add Cryo Blast. - Drone + Turret + Marksman
Adept Common Adept builds will use Warp and Throw, then Pull or Singularity. Cluster Grenades optional. +200% weapon weight.
Common bonus powers: Fortification or Barrier, Warp Ammo. Uncommon bonus powers: Energy Drain, Reave, Stasis, Lash.
Some niche Adept builds: - Use Shockwave or ignore Throw (like ME3MP-style Human Adept or Drell Adept) - Heavy weapon like the Claymore.
Infiltrator The most common Infiltrator builds are designed to shoot guns, typically either sniper rifles or shotguns. All shooting-based builds will use Tactical Cloak for increased weapon damage. Sniper builds will usually use Disruptor Ammo, while other gun-based builds will use either Disruptor Ammo or Cryo Ammo depending on the player's preference. For bonus powers, Fortification and Energy Drain are most common.
Uncommon Infiltrator builds will try to mix shooting with casting powers, using Tactical Cloak (with Free Power evolution) combined with other non-ammo powers. On these builds, Sabotage and Incinerate will see more use; Cryo Ammo is the preferred ammo power on these builds as it will generally not interfere with other power combos unlike Distruptor Ammo.
I should note that while the Infiltrator has Sticky Grenades, you generally do not see them mentioned or used a lot on Infiltrator builds.
Most niche/odd/bizarre Infiltrator builds will ignore Tactical Cloak.
Vanguard Most Vanguards will use Biotic Charge, Nova, and Incendiary Ammo, along with any shotgun or fast-firing weapon. Players that think the Charge+Nova combo is too powerful will ignore Nova and use Pull and maybe Shockwave. The most common bonus powers would be Reave, followed by Fortification or Barrier.
Niche/odd/bizarre builds will ignore Biotic Charge. I have seen a few Chargless Vanguards, including some Chargless Novaguards. I have also seen some cryo ammo-based builds that use Energy Drain, both charge and chargless. I once played an ME1-style Vanguard that used Pull, Shockwave, and Carnage of all things.
I also once saw a Vanguard with Defense Drone, using the drone to help stun enemies at close range after a charge. I also recall someone who wrote they used Flare on a Vanguard, but I think it was modded so I am not going to count it.
Sentinel The most common Sentinel build uses Overload, Warp, and Throw. Tech Armor and Lift Grenades optional. +200% weapon weight. A less common Sentinel uses Tech Armor + Fortification (or Barrer or Defense Matrix) for extra damage protection, and whatever weapons who cares about weight. Lift Grenades a must, and optional Throw (with recharge on combo evolution).
Common bonus powers: Warp Ammo, AP Ammo. Uncommon bonus powers: Lash, Stasis, Fortification/Barrer/Defense Matrix.
Niche builds will use Cryo Blast or a less common bonus power. Also niche: Using Tech Armor's purge explosion. I also tried using a Tech Armor + Lift Grenades + Marksman build but never found a weapon I liked with it.
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Post by n7double07 on Dec 17, 2022 19:00:41 GMT
AdeptCommon Adept builds will use Warp and Throw, then Pull or Singularity. Cluster Grenades optional. +200% weapon weight. Common bonus powers: Fortification or Barrier, Warp Ammo. Uncommon bonus powers: Energy Drain, Reave, Stasis, Lash. Some niche Adept builds: - Use Shockwave or ignore Throw (like ME3MP-style Human Adept or Drell Adept) - Heavy weapon like the Claymore. InfiltratorThe most common Infiltrator builds are designed to shoot guns, typically either sniper rifles or shotguns. All shooting-based builds will use Tactical Cloak for increased weapon damage. Sniper builds will usually use Disruptor Ammo, while other gun-based builds will use either Disruptor Ammo or Cryo Ammo depending on the player's preference. For bonus powers, Fortification and Energy Drain are most common. Uncommon Infiltrator builds will try to mix shooting with casting powers, using Tactical Cloak (with Free Power evolution) combined with other non-ammo powers. On these builds, Sabotage and Incinerate will see more use; Cryo Ammo is the preferred ammo power on these builds as it will generally not interfere with other power combos unlike Distruptor Ammo. I should note that while the Infiltrator has Sticky Grenades, you generally do not see them mentioned or used a lot on Infiltrator builds. Most niche/odd/bizarre Infiltrator builds will ignore Tactical Cloak. VanguardMost Vanguards will use Biotic Charge, Nova, and Incendiary Ammo, along with any shotgun or fast-firing weapon. Players that think the Charge+Nova combo is too powerful will ignore Nova and use Pull and maybe Shockwave. The most common bonus powers would be Reave, followed by Fortification or Barrier. Niche/odd/bizarre builds will ignore Biotic Charge. I have seen a few Chargless Vanguards, including some Chargless Novaguards. I have also seen some cryo ammo-based builds that use Energy Drain, both charge and chargless. I once played an ME1-style Vanguard that used Pull, Shockwave, and Carnage of all things. I also once saw a Vanguard with Defense Drone, using the drone to help stun enemies at close range after a charge. I also recall someone who wrote they used Flare on a Vanguard, but I think it was modded so I am not going to count it. SentinelThe most common Sentinel build uses Overload, Warp, and Throw. Tech Armor and Lift Grenades optional. +200% weapon weight. A less common Sentinel uses Tech Armor + Fortification (or Barrer or Defense Matrix) for extra damage protection, and whatever weapons who cares about weight. Lift Grenades a must, and optional Throw (with recharge on combo evolution). Common bonus powers: Warp Ammo, AP Ammo. Uncommon bonus powers: Lash, Stasis, Fortification/Barrer/Defense Matrix. Niche builds will use Cryo Blast or a less common bonus power. Also niche: Using Tech Armor's purge explosion. I also tried using a Tech Armor + Lift Grenades + Marksman build but never found a weapon I liked with it. Interesting that Stasis for Sentinel and Energy Drain for Adept are uncommon in your experience; I've seen them quite a bit.
I've seen Warp Ammo on Sentinels but never Armor Piercing Ammo. I've always found Armor Piercing Ammo to be one of the worst bonus powers (or most niche, rather than "worst.") Do you use it on Sentinel yourself?
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Post by RedCaesar97 on Dec 17, 2022 20:04:53 GMT
Interesting that Stasis for Sentinel and Energy Drain for Adept are uncommon in your experience; I've seen them quite a bit. I've seen Warp Ammo on Sentinels but never Armor Piercing Ammo. I've always found Armor Piercing Ammo to be one of the worst bonus powers (or most niche, rather than "worst.") Do you use it on Sentinel yourself? Warp Ammo versus AP Ammo: Using AP Ammo frees up a weapon slot so you do not have to take a piercing mod. Warp Ammo is good for extra damage, especially versus biotically-affect enemies although I recall that it did not work with all biotics when I )and some other players) did some testing with it several years back. EDIT: Deleted my previous speculation about my Sentinels. I went back and looked at my ME3 Sentinels. I currently have three, all of them original trilogy playthroughs. I loaded the latest-game save to see what I had. 1. Matt Shepard used Fortification. Matt Shepard was my original Sentinel. He used Overload - Warp - Throw, plus Tech Armor and Fortification for max damage protection. All points were spent, but I know I never used Cryo Blast or Lift Grenades. I only had one character slot with him. I am unsure if that was my only playthrough with him, or if I had deleted my previous playthrough before completing another. I am pretty sure I had another previous playthrough with him as I think I would have already played through once with him before a discussion came up about how using both Tech Armor and Fortification/Barrier/Defense Matrix would not totally kill your cooldowns if you went +200% weapon weight. If this was a second playthrough, my first playthrough would have been about a decade ago, so me forgetting about it would not be surprising. My first playthrough would have used Stasis I think? 2. Paula Shepard used Fortification. She followed Kronner's "Biotic Bomber and walking tank" build. So max damage protection with Tech Armor and Fortification, big guns, Lift Grenades, and Throw with the evolution that reset cooldowns after combo. 3. Brad Shepard used Marksman. This was a Tech Armor - Lift Grenades - Marksman build. This would have been my most recent Sentinel playthrough but I do not remember this playthrough at all. I remember testing the build but I do not remember doing a full playthrough with him.
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Post by capn233 on Dec 18, 2022 23:17:39 GMT
If AP Ammo (power) had free cover penetration, I might take it on almost every character who doesn't have Incendiary. Still pretty good on a few guns that really want mag + barrel.
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