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Post by n7double07 on Jan 6, 2023 2:54:52 GMT
I'd be fine with Cerberus never coming back. I thought they sucked (except to fight) after ME1. I'd rather some successor organization -- a political faction with a different moniker, rather than a large-standing force -- be in their place. They could be enemies, but more in lieu of ME1, and likely using puppet organizations for the shadier stuff.
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Post by themikefest on Jan 6, 2023 4:07:03 GMT
Cerberus failed because the reapers controlled them. In ME3 they became the keystone cops. If not for Cerberus, the reapers would have won. They were the one's able to bring the Commander back from death. Who else could have done that? No one. In ME4, they will rebuild to become the powerhouse they were meant to be. My Shepard and Miranda will help make that happen. excellent. With the reapers destroyed, Cerberus will lead the galaxy forward to great things. This is all made possible by the main man TIM. He will be pardoned for any crime because he and his organization were under alien control. Cerberus is Mass Effect.   Prepare to be disappointed. Especially with parts like “Shepard and Miranda” rebuild it since both canonically will never do that and loathe the organization. Disappointed? No. I would prefer this instead. 
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Post by puddingtheruthless on Jan 7, 2023 19:32:37 GMT
I don't know about being re-educated. I like TIM, I do. The man was a genius. But he is the reason Cerberus failed in the end. Cerberus failed because the reapers controlled them. In ME3 they became the keystone cops. If not for Cerberus, the reapers would have won. They were the one's able to bring the Commander back from death. Who else could have done that? No one. In ME4, they will rebuild to become the powerhouse they were meant to be. My Shepard and Miranda will help make that happen. excellent. With the reapers destroyed, Cerberus will lead the galaxy forward to great things. This is all made possible by the main man TIM. He will be pardoned for any crime because he and his organization were under alien control. Cerberus is Mass Effect.   Considering Cerberus' track records, every single thing they do is just going to inevitably end in their plan backfiring, internal betrayal or a combo of the two. They're hilariously incompetent after the first game and the writing team's attempts to pretend otherwise is both amusing and annoying. Mostly annoying.
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Post by mrobnoxiousuk on Jan 7, 2023 20:10:13 GMT
Cerberus failed because the reapers controlled them. In ME3 they became the keystone cops. If not for Cerberus, the reapers would have won. They were the one's able to bring the Commander back from death. Who else could have done that? No one. In ME4, they will rebuild to become the powerhouse they were meant to be. My Shepard and Miranda will help make that happen. excellent. With the reapers destroyed, Cerberus will lead the galaxy forward to great things. This is all made possible by the main man TIM. He will be pardoned for any crime because he and his organization were under alien control. Cerberus is Mass Effect. Considering Cerberus' track records, every single thing they do is just going to inevitably end in their plan backfiring, internal betrayal or a combo of the two. They're hilariously incompetent after the first game and the writing team's attempts to pretend otherwise is both amusing and annoying. Mostly annoying. Cerberus failed because they were required to by the plot, they were devolved into mustache twirling villains at the end, tying damsels to the rail tracks instead of a human centric organization that aimed to advance humanity to the forefront by guile and use of force tended to be a last option.
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Post by puddingtheruthless on Jan 7, 2023 20:33:47 GMT
Considering Cerberus' track records, every single thing they do is just going to inevitably end in their plan backfiring, internal betrayal or a combo of the two. They're hilariously incompetent after the first game and the writing team's attempts to pretend otherwise is both amusing and annoying. Mostly annoying. Cerberus failed because they were required to by the plot, they were devolved into mustache twirling villains at the end, tying damsels to the rail tracks instead of a human centric organization that aimed to advance humanity to the forefront by guile and use of force tended to be a last option. Cerberus never devolved into mustache twirling villains that tied damsels to railroad tracks: horrific experiments on unwilling human subjects was their bread and butter as early as Mass Effect 1 where they were portrayed as unambiguously evil. - They set thresher maws loose on the Akuze unit as part of an experiment and then they abducted the survivor Toombs to further experiment on him for years. - They used a false distress beacon to lure Kahoku's marines into a thresher maw ambush. - They abducted and murdered Kahoku for trying to investigate. - They were turning people into husks. - They were working with ExoGeni and received Thorian samples.
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Post by mrobnoxiousuk on Jan 7, 2023 21:14:50 GMT
Cerberus failed because they were required to by the plot, they were devolved into mustache twirling villains at the end, tying damsels to the rail tracks instead of a human centric organization that aimed to advance humanity to the forefront by guile and use of force tended to be a last option. Cerberus never devolved into mustache twirling villains that tied damsels to railroad tracks: horrific experiments on unwilling human subjects was their bread and butter as early as Mass Effect 1 where they were portrayed as unambiguously evil. - They set thresher maws loose on the Akuze unit as part of an experiment and then they abducted the survivor Toombs to further experiment on him for years. - They used a false distress beacon to lure Kahoku's marines into a thresher maw ambush. - They abducted and murdered Kahoku for trying to investigate. - They were turning people into husks. - They were working with ExoGeni and received Thorian samples. Those acts are all things most modern governmental blacksites would do to be quite honest They lured the squad to see how the attacks happen in real time and way to control or avoid them and the effects of the acid on human physiology for medical application or as a weapon. Most secret organization use cleaners of some sort to get rid of overly curious or dangerous people to them. Same as with the threshers you need to know something to either control or destroy it. To use a real life example the US government did something called the Tuskegee Study look it up, pretty harrowing stuff.
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Post by puddingtheruthless on Jan 7, 2023 22:13:47 GMT
Those acts are all things most modern governmental blacksites would do to be quite honest They lured the squad to see how the attacks happen in real time and way to control or avoid them and the effects of the acid on human physiology for medical application or as a weapon. Most secret organization use cleaners of some sort to get rid of overly curious or dangerous people to them. Same as with the threshers you need to know something to either control or destroy it. To use a real life example the US government did something called the Tuskegee Study look it up, pretty harrowing stuff. I'm sorry, but what is your point here? That because real-life governments are guilty of conducting evil/inhuman experiments, this means Cerberus wasn't portrayed as unambigiously evil in the first game? That because Cerberus was doing these things for the sake of furthering their own agenda, this means Cerberus wasn't portrayed as unambigiously evil in the first game? Either way, you'd still be wrong.
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Post by mrobnoxiousuk on Jan 7, 2023 22:32:22 GMT
Those acts are all things most modern governmental blacksites would do to be quite honest They lured the squad to see how the attacks happen in real time and way to control or avoid them and the effects of the acid on human physiology for medical application or as a weapon. Most secret organization use cleaners of some sort to get rid of overly curious or dangerous people to them. Same as with the threshers you need to know something to either control or destroy it. To use a real life example the US government did something called the Tuskegee Study look it up, pretty harrowing stuff. I'm sorry, but what is your point here? That because real-life governments are guilty of conducting evil/inhuman experiments, this means Cerberus wasn't portrayed as unambigiously evil in the first game? That because Cerberus was doing these things for the sake of furthering their own agenda, this means Cerberus wasn't portrayed as unambigiously evil in the first game? Either way, you'd still be wrong. I don't mind guiding your little hands to join the dots, so by showing you what a moderate government does in real life and the comparisons between them and a fictional organization(still with me)shows they did not start off as Mustachioed cartoon villains like you claimed(so either way you are wrong but hey it happens)
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Post by puddingtheruthless on Jan 7, 2023 23:39:48 GMT
I'm sorry, but what is your point here? That because real-life governments are guilty of conducting evil/inhuman experiments, this means Cerberus wasn't portrayed as unambigiously evil in the first game? That because Cerberus was doing these things for the sake of furthering their own agenda, this means Cerberus wasn't portrayed as unambigiously evil in the first game? Either way, you'd still be wrong. I don't mind guiding your little hands to join the dots, so by showing you what a moderate government does in real life and the comparisons between them and a fictional organization(still with me)shows they did not start off as Mustachioed cartoon villains like you claimed(so either way you are wrong but hey it happens) Nice condescension there, buddy. First of all, in real life, we try to hold governments accountable for the terrible things they do. We don't, and we shouldn't, pretend that these experiments don't reflect back onto the governments that perpetrated them, least of all because they allegedly did to further medical knowledge. Here's what the Tuskegee experiment said about the American government: - It said the government didn't value the lives of black people. - It said the government would withhold widely available medical care so they could watch black men die or be ravaged by syphilis. - It said that the government didn't place a value on human lives when it didn't care that it would kill 28 people directly with syphilis, kill 100 from complications, let 40 be infected and have children be born with congenital syphilis. As someone who is viewed as less than a human by Nazis and as someone whose government secretly sterilized indigenous women which caused not only trauma then, but also the near extinction of several communities, I could not give a shit. You can try to guide my wee little hands all you want, I'm not going to go "Gee, mister, I sure was naive. This puts the government in a different perspective!" because I look at what this says about the government and the consequences it had on the people who were harmed. I don't look at the benefit to the people who weren't affected and would never be affected. I have no idea why the hell you think you are putting Cerberus in a better context by comparing their experiments to real-life ones such as the Tuskegee experiment - you're not making them look better. You're just condemning them further. Cerberus murdering several people with monsters to further their own medical studies and then killing more people to cover it up does not reflect well on them as an organization.Secondly, you still haven't proven that Cerberus wasn't portrayed as unambigiously evil in Mass Effect 1. You've just argued why you didn't personally consider their actions to be unambigiously evil. Show me where the game doesn't consider them unambigiously evil: a companion arguing in favor of their research, a codex entry etc.
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Post by mrobnoxiousuk on Jan 7, 2023 23:42:14 GMT
I don't mind guiding your little hands to join the dots, so by showing you what a moderate government does in real life and the comparisons between them and a fictional organization(still with me)shows they did not start off as Mustachioed cartoon villains like you claimed(so either way you are wrong but hey it happens) Nice condescension there, buddy. First of all, in real life, we try to hold governments accountable for the terrible things they do. We don't, and we shouldn't, pretend that these experiments don't reflect back onto the governments that perpetrated them, least of all because they allegedly did to further medical knowledge. Here's what the Tuskegee experiment said about the American government: - It said the government didn't value the lives of black people. - It said the government would withhold widely available medical care so they could watch black men die or be ravaged by syphilis. - It said that the government didn't place a value on human lives when it didn't care that it would kill 28 people directly with syphilis, kill 100 from complications, let 40 be infected and have children be born with congenital syphilis. As someone who is viewed as less than a human by Nazis and as someone whose government secretly sterilized indigenous women which caused not only trauma then, but also the near extinction of several communities, I could not give a shit. You can try to guide my wee little hands all you want, I'm not going to go "Gee, mister, I sure was naive. This puts the government in a different perspective!" because I look at what this says about the government and the consequences it had on the people who were harmed. I don't look at the benefit to the people who weren't affected and would never be affected. I have no idea why the hell you think you are putting Cerberus in a better context by comparing their experiments to real-life ones such as the Tuskegee experiment - you're not making them look better. You're just condemning them further. Secondly, you still haven't proven that Cerberus wasn't portrayed as unambigiously evil in Mass Effect 1. You've just argued why you didn't personally consider their actions to be unambigiously evil. Show me where the game doesn't consider them unambigiously evil: a companion arguing in favor of their research, a codex entry etc. I find it amusing that you were condescending first, but as soon as you got some back you went into full on righteous rage mode, if you can't take it, don't dish it out end of story. Also you can't unambiguously prove they aren't evil or good as long as more than one interpretation exists it disputes your claim, way to paint yourself in a corner with your choice of word.
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Post by puddingtheruthless on Jan 7, 2023 23:45:49 GMT
I find it amusing that you were condescending first, but as soon as you got some back you went into full on righteous rage mode, if you can't take it, don't dish it out end of story. You mean this joke? Considering Cerberus' track records, every single thing they do is just going to inevitably end in their plan backfiring, internal betrayal or a combo of the two. They're hilariously incompetent after the first game and the writing team's attempts to pretend otherwise is both amusing and annoying. Mostly annoying.That was me making a crack about how I don't find Cerberus competent. It clearly wasn't about themikefest. Or do you seriously consider this to be condescending? I'm sorry, but what is your point here?
That because real-life governments are guilty of conducting evil/inhuman experiments, this means Cerberus wasn't portrayed as unambigiously evil in the first game?
That because Cerberus was doing these things for the sake of furthering their own agenda, this means Cerberus wasn't portrayed as unambigiously evil in the first game?
Either way, you'd still be wrong.I also didn't get into "full on righteous mode" because you got condescending. If you're going to bring real-life human experiments into your arguments, don't get weirdly tone-policing when people have strong feelings on real-life human experiments because of course, people are going to have strong feelings on real-life human experiments.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 7, 2023 23:55:42 GMT
Nice condescension there, buddy. First of all, in real life, we try to hold governments accountable for the terrible things they do. We don't, and we shouldn't, pretend that these experiments don't reflect back onto the governments that perpetrated them, least of all because they allegedly did to further medical knowledge. Here's what the Tuskegee experiment said about the American government: - It said the government didn't value the lives of black people. - It said the government would withhold widely available medical care so they could watch black men die or be ravaged by syphilis. - It said that the government didn't place a value on human lives when it didn't care that it would kill 28 people directly with syphilis, kill 100 from complications, let 40 be infected and have children be born with congenital syphilis. As someone who is viewed as less than a human by Nazis and as someone whose government secretly sterilized indigenous women which caused not only trauma then, but also the near extinction of several communities, I could not give a shit. You can try to guide my wee little hands all you want, I'm not going to go "Gee, mister, I sure was naive. This puts the government in a different perspective!" because I look at what this says about the government and the consequences it had on the people who were harmed. I don't look at the benefit to the people who weren't affected and would never be affected. I have no idea why the hell you think you are putting Cerberus in a better context by comparing their experiments to real-life ones such as the Tuskegee experiment - you're not making them look better. You're just condemning them further. Secondly, you still haven't proven that Cerberus wasn't portrayed as unambigiously evil in Mass Effect 1. You've just argued why you didn't personally consider their actions to be unambigiously evil. Show me where the game doesn't consider them unambigiously evil: a companion arguing in favor of their research, a codex entry etc. I find it amusing that you were condescending first, but as soon as you got some back you went into full on righteous rage mode, if you can't take it, don't dish it out end of story. Also you can't unambiguously prove they aren't evil or good as long as more than one interpretation exists it disputes your claim, way to paint yourself in a corner with your choice of word. Good thing we can prove they were unambiguously evil in ME1: they experimented on and murdered civilians. What they did to soldiers are already evil, but that goes full on so. And no, there being more than one interpretation does not make something not good or evil. There are people who agree with the Nazis about the Holocaust, that doesn’t suddenly make it a morally grey event since there are multiple interpretations of it. Those people just support pure evil actions. |
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Post by puddingtheruthless on Jan 8, 2023 0:09:20 GMT
Secondly, you still haven't proven that Cerberus wasn't portrayed as unambigiously evil in Mass Effect 1. You've just argued why you didn't personally consider their actions to be unambigiously evil. Show me where the game doesn't consider them unambigiously evil: a companion arguing in favor of their research, a codex entry etc. Also you can't unambiguously prove they aren't evil or good as long as more than one interpretation exists it disputes your claim, way to paint yourself in a corner with your choice of word. I'm going to make my point very clear: you have not provided evidence that one such interpretation exist in-game. You have only provided your own personal reasons for why you think Cerberus as an organization is not unambigiously evil which is not a functional counterargument in this case because we are talking about Mass Effect 1 itself portrays Ceberus and it portrays them as unambigiously evil through their actions, through the reaction of characters to their actions and through the absence of any characters who speak to their favor.
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Post by mrobnoxiousuk on Jan 8, 2023 0:12:46 GMT
I find it amusing that you were condescending first, but as soon as you got some back you went into full on righteous rage mode, if you can't take it, don't dish it out end of story. Also you can't unambiguously prove they aren't evil or good as long as more than one interpretation exists it disputes your claim, way to paint yourself in a corner with your choice of word. Good thing we can prove they were unambiguously evil in ME1: they experimented on and murdered civilians. What they did to soldiers are already evil, but that goes full on so. And no, there being more than one interpretation does not make something not good or evil. There are people who agree with the Nazis about the Holocaust, that doesn’t suddenly make it a morally grey event since there are multiple interpretations of it. Those people just support pure evil actions. I would say they showed they were immoral but immoral is not necessarily evil. The definetions of both are as follows Immoral: inconsistent with rectitude, purity, or good morals; contrary to conscience or the divine law. EVIL:Intending to harm; malevolent.
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Post by mrobnoxiousuk on Jan 8, 2023 0:17:07 GMT
Also you can't unambiguously prove they aren't evil or good as long as more than one interpretation exists it disputes your claim, way to paint yourself in a corner with your choice of word. I'm going to make my point very clear: you have not provided evidence that one such interpretation exist in-game. You have only provided your own personal reasons for why you think Cerberus as an organization is not unambigiously evil which is not a functional counterargument in this case because we are talking about Mass Effect 1 itself portrays Ceberus and it portrays them as unambigiously evil through their actions, through the reaction of characters to their actions and through the absence of any characters who speak to their favor. You haven't provided any proof they are evil,you ask for proof but any codex i will quote you will just say that is my opinion, so i say the same to you it is just personal perception irregardless of so called proof.
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Post by puddingtheruthless on Jan 8, 2023 0:34:26 GMT
I'm going to make my point very clear: you have not provided evidence that one such interpretation exist in-game. You have only provided your own personal reasons for why you think Cerberus as an organization is not unambigiously evil which is not a functional counterargument in this case because we are talking about Mass Effect 1 itself portrays Ceberus and it portrays them as unambigiously evil through their actions, through the reaction of characters to their actions and through the absence of any characters who speak to their favor. You haven't provided any proof they are evil,you ask for proof but any codex i will quote you will just say that is my opinion, so i say the same to you it is just personal perception irregardless of so called proof. UNC: Missing Marines UNC: Cerberus UNC: Hades' Dogs UNC: Colony of the Dead  Kahoku Toombs
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Post by mrobnoxiousuk on Jan 8, 2023 0:35:52 GMT
You haven't provided any proof they are evil,you ask for proof but any codex i will quote you will just say that is my opinion, so i say the same to you it is just personal perception irregardless of so called proof. UNC: Missing Marines UNC: Cerberus UNC: Hades' Dogs UNC: Colony of the Dead Kahoku Toombs Proves nothing but that they are morally bankrupt and lack ethics they have a goal in mind and while you could argue they are evil that is a personal opinion
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Post by puddingtheruthless on Jan 8, 2023 1:42:17 GMT
Proves nothing but that they are morally bankrupt and lack ethics they have a goal in mind and while you could argue they are evil that is a personal opinion (You're literally saying this proves they're morally bankrupt and lack ethics) This is a discussion evidenced in textual evidence, not evidenced in personal opinion. I've shown that the game portrays Cerberus as unambigiously evil: in the game, their actions are always condemned by the characters, their victims are treated as sympathetic and Kahoku's death is even accompanied by a heavy-handed music meant to evoke a specific emotion; a feeling of sadness and downright tragedy. I can and have disagreed with a movie's portrayal of a character, but that does not change how the movie wants me to feel about said character as evident by the way it portrays said character.
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Post by mrobnoxiousuk on Jan 8, 2023 1:46:10 GMT
Proves nothing but that they are morally bankrupt and lack ethics they have a goal in mind and while you could argue they are evil that is a personal opinion (You're literally saying this proves they're morally bankrupt and lack ethics) This is a discussion evidenced in textual evidence, not evidenced in personal opinion. I've shown that the game portrays Cerberus as unambigiously evil: in the game, their actions are always condemned by the characters, their victims are treated as sympathetic and Kahoku's death is even accompanied by a heavy-handed music meant to evoke a specific emotion; a feeling of sadness and downright tragedy. I can and have disagreed with a movie's portrayal of a character, but that does not change how the movie wants me to feel about said character as evident by the way it portrays said character. No, you really haven't, a lack of morals doesn't mean you are evil,it is a personal opinion you(and others) have come to for your conclusion and this doesn't make it FACT
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Post by puddingtheruthless on Jan 8, 2023 2:08:21 GMT
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jan 8, 2023 2:13:19 GMT
*seats in the corner quietly, eating popcorn while watching this argument continue*
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Post by mrobnoxiousuk on Jan 8, 2023 2:42:13 GMT
I do but i don't think you do Textual evidence deals with facts in writing and the strategies used to figure out whether or not the information is factual. You seem to think it is validation of your opinion, it's not. I must thankyou though, you are making my nightshift pass a lot faster than it usually does, so for that cheers bud.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 8, 2023 7:55:08 GMT
Good thing we can prove they were unambiguously evil in ME1: they experimented on and murdered civilians. What they did to soldiers are already evil, but that goes full on so. And no, there being more than one interpretation does not make something not good or evil. There are people who agree with the Nazis about the Holocaust, that doesn’t suddenly make it a morally grey event since there are multiple interpretations of it. Those people just support pure evil actions. I would say they showed they were immoral but immoral is not necessarily evil. The definetions of both are as follows Immoral: inconsistent with rectitude, purity, or good morals; contrary to conscience or the divine law. EVIL:Intending to harm; malevolent. And they intended to harm since they literally left innocent people to die if not killed them themselves. So thank you for agreeing they were evil in ME1. |
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Post by puddingtheruthless on Jan 8, 2023 12:16:45 GMT
I do but i don't think you do Textual evidence deals with facts in writing and the strategies used to figure out whether or not the information is factual. Yes, and textual evidence is also used in text analysis to examine the meaning, themes, structure and literary devices of a text. Mass Effect 1 uses gameplay, music and writing to portray Cerberus as an unambigiously evil organization; Kahoku's death is not coincidentally scored with tragic music: that's a deliberate choice made because the game wants to portray his death as sad. Regardless of whether you personally think his death actually is sad or not, it is still textual evidence.
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mrobnoxiousuk
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by mrobnoxiousuk on Jan 8, 2023 19:16:20 GMT
I do but i don't think you do Textual evidence deals with facts in writing and the strategies used to figure out whether or not the information is factual. Yes, and textual evidence is also used in text analysis to examine the meaning, themes, structure and literary devices of a text. Mass Effect 1 uses gameplay, music and writing to portray Cerberus as an unambigiously evil organization; Kahoku's death is not coincidentally scored with tragic music: that's a deliberate choice made because the game wants to portray his death as sad. Regardless of whether you personally think his death actually is sad or not, it is still textual evidence. Again you seem to think your opinion on the matter counts as proof, it doesn't unless you are a Forensic psychologist and you may well be(but i am going to press x to doubt) So if Mass Effect in game had you kill a baby eating madman but played sad music at his demise am i supposed to think "hey they played sad music maybe he was a nice guy after all and this is textual evidence" I gave you the proper definition of textual evidence, are you now saying the Oxford/Webster's dictionary is subject to your whim?
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