mrobnoxiousuk
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Post by mrobnoxiousuk on Jan 8, 2023 19:34:55 GMT
I would say they showed they were immoral but immoral is not necessarily evil. The definetions of both are as follows Immoral: inconsistent with rectitude, purity, or good morals; contrary to conscience or the divine law. EVIL:Intending to harm; malevolent. And they intended to harm since they literally left innocent people to die if not killed them themselves. So thank you for agreeing they were evil in ME1. Just intention of causing harm by itself is not indicative of a dichotomy of good/evil ect so your 7 grade attempt at whataboutery has failed but if you had your namesakes abilities you could just delete your memory and try again.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 8, 2023 20:31:36 GMT
And they intended to harm since they literally left innocent people to die if not killed them themselves. So thank you for agreeing they were evil in ME1. Just intention of causing harm by itself is not indicative of a dichotomy of good/evil ect so your 7 grade attempt at whataboutery has failed but if you had your namesakes abilities you could just delete your memory and try again. So you are ignoring and invalidating the definition you yourself provided to support your claim? Also confused what you mean with the underlined?
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Post by mrobnoxiousuk on Jan 8, 2023 20:46:46 GMT
Just intention of causing harm by itself is not indicative of a dichotomy of good/evil ect so your 7 grade attempt at whataboutery has failed but if you had your namesakes abilities you could just delete your memory and try again.So you are ignoring and invalidating the definition you yourself provided to support your claim? Also confused what you mean with the underlined? You know the game you are playing and it is intellectually dishonest of you to do so,things are not always meant to be taken so literally so here is a copy past from Webster's book of wordage viler or eviller; evilest or evillest 1 a : morally reprehensible : SINFUL, WICKED an evil impulse b : arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct a person of evil reputation 2 a archaic : INFERIOR b : causing discomfort or repulsion : OFFENSIVE an evil odor c : DISAGREEABLE woke late and in an evil temper 3 a : causing harm : PERNICIOUS the evil institution of slavery b : marked by misfortune : UNLUCKY As you can see many different definitions all of which can be open to interpretation to varying degrees. Hence i mentioned your juvenile use of whataboutism to further your argument.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 8, 2023 21:25:49 GMT
So you are ignoring and invalidating the definition you yourself provided to support your claim? Also confused what you mean with the underlined? You know the game you are playing and it is intellectually dishonest of you to do so,things are not always meant to be taken so literally so here is a copy past from Webster's book of wordage viler or eviller; evilest or evillest 1 a : morally reprehensible : SINFUL, WICKED an evil impulse b : arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct a person of evil reputation 2 a archaic : INFERIOR b : causing discomfort or repulsion : OFFENSIVE an evil odor c : DISAGREEABLE woke late and in an evil temper 3 a : causing harm : PERNICIOUS the evil institution of slavery b : marked by misfortune : UNLUCKY As you can see many different definitions all of which can be open to interpretation to varying degrees. Hence i mentioned your juvenile use of whataboutism to further your argument. All those definitions agree with me, none with you. Experimenting on and murdering innocent people is evil. Can you actually please answer the second part of my post? The thing about my namesake? I’m genuinely curious what you were referring to with that.
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Post by mrobnoxiousuk on Jan 8, 2023 23:15:38 GMT
You know the game you are playing and it is intellectually dishonest of you to do so,things are not always meant to be taken so literally so here is a copy past from Webster's book of wordage viler or eviller; evilest or evillest 1 a : morally reprehensible : SINFUL, WICKED an evil impulse b : arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct a person of evil reputation 2 a archaic : INFERIOR b : causing discomfort or repulsion : OFFENSIVE an evil odor c : DISAGREEABLE woke late and in an evil temper 3 a : causing harm : PERNICIOUS the evil institution of slavery b : marked by misfortune : UNLUCKY As you can see many different definitions all of which can be open to interpretation to varying degrees. Hence i mentioned your juvenile use of whataboutism to further your argument. All those definitions agree with me, none with you. Experimenting on and murdering innocent people is evil. Can you actually please answer the second part of my post? The thing about my namesake? I’m genuinely curious what you were referring to with that. They don't agree with you at all,if someone does an act with no malicious intent while morally wrong it occupies a grey area, where a Bureaucrat can cause more death and destruction with a single pen stroke than a crazy axe maniac striking down women and children. I find it interesting in other articles you employ a shades of grey mentality until it works against your interests and then you act like black and white absolutism is the way ahead. The thing about your namesake i mixed it up with a similarly spelt anime character who has the power to delete memories but looking at the spelling i see its a different character.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 9, 2023 4:04:44 GMT
The thing about your namesake i mixed it up with a similarly spelt anime character who has the power to delete memories but looking at the spelling i see its a different character. Ah ok
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Post by puddingtheruthless on Jan 9, 2023 10:59:25 GMT
Yes, and textual evidence is also used in text analysis to examine the meaning, themes, structure and literary devices of a text. Mass Effect 1 uses gameplay, music and writing to portray Cerberus as an unambigiously evil organization; Kahoku's death is not coincidentally scored with tragic music: that's a deliberate choice made because the game wants to portray his death as sad. Regardless of whether you personally think his death actually is sad or not, it is still textual evidence. Again you seem to think your opinion on the matter counts as proof, it doesn't unless you are a Forensic psychologist and you may well be(but i am going to press x to doubt) So if Mass Effect in game had you kill a baby eating madman but played sad music at his demise am i supposed to think "hey they played sad music maybe he was a nice guy after all and this is textual evidence" I gave you the proper definition of textual evidence, are you now saying the Oxford/Webster's dictionary is subject to your whim? Focusing solely this, excluding any other potential factors, the use of sad music strongly indicates the game wants you to perceive this happening as a sad thing because the game tries to portray it as a sad thing by deliberately using sad music to score this scene. The music indicates an intent. Despite what you've said, you still don't understand what it means when we're talking about how a story portrays something or what it means to source arguments in textual evidence from said story. There's no merit to this discussion if you don't understand those things because they're essential to be able to discuss this, so I'm ending my side in this discussion.
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Post by mrobnoxiousuk on Jan 9, 2023 17:28:11 GMT
Again you seem to think your opinion on the matter counts as proof, it doesn't unless you are a Forensic psychologist and you may well be(but i am going to press x to doubt) So if Mass Effect in game had you kill a baby eating madman but played sad music at his demise am i supposed to think "hey they played sad music maybe he was a nice guy after all and this is textual evidence" I gave you the proper definition of textual evidence, are you now saying the Oxford/Webster's dictionary is subject to your whim? Focusing solely this, excluding any other potential factors, the use of sad music strongly indicates the game wants you to perceive this happening as a sad thing because the game tries to portray it as a sad thing by deliberately using sad music to score this scene. The music indicates an intent. Despite what you've said, you still don't understand what it means when we're talking about how a story portrays something or what it means to source arguments in textual evidence from said story. There's no merit to this discussion if you don't understand those things because they're essential to be able to discuss this, so I'm ending my side in this discussion. You answered it yourself, the music is a vehicle to colour your perception which i explained with the sad music at the death of the baby eater you kill off in my made up scenario,it's not PROOF it's their to make you feel a certain way and FEELINGS are not PROOF. It's just medium to colour your perceptions and turn you in a certain direction, it's a form of manipulation, the fact you don't even realise that is kind of sad.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2023 16:28:08 GMT
<reads threads last two pages>
"whataboutism"....
ObnoxiousUK keeps accusing whataboutism, and then proceeds to use whataboutism to excuse Cerberus actions.
"It's not whataboutism when I do it. Whataboutism for me not for thee."
I can't. Don't feed the obvious, and not very smart, troll.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 11, 2023 16:57:11 GMT
<reads threads last two pages> "whataboutism".... ObnoxiousUK keeps accusing whataboutism, and then proceeds to use whataboutism to excuse Cerberus actions. "It's not whataboutism when I do it. Whataboutism for me not for thee." I can't. Don't feed the obvious, and not very smart, troll. Especially since in many cases the people they accused of it weren’t even using it. It was fun to play with for a little bit though.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jan 11, 2023 16:58:46 GMT
Meh. If Cerberus is evil so is everyone else. Everyone does shady shit in the ME franchise.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2023 20:11:03 GMT
Meh. If Cerberus is evil so is everyone else. Everyone does shady shit in the ME franchise. Ok, I'll play. Cerberus is evil, so the Asari are evil. The Asari are evil because they hid stuff from the rest of the galaxy, so that the Asari would remain the high species. This is a good start. And then it falls apart, because the similarities end there. Each species has bad actors. Dalatrass, many Krogan, Saren, OG Shadow Broker, Tela Vasir. The Council species did some Cerberus-level shit to the Krogans. Together. Nothing compares to Cerberus. They are despicable, and the first game makes this so abundantly clear that it is always frustrating to believe this is a genuine discussion.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jan 11, 2023 20:52:08 GMT
Meh. If Cerberus is evil so is everyone else. Everyone does shady shit in the ME franchise. Ok, I'll play. Cerberus is evil, so the Asari are evil. The Asari are evil because they hid stuff from the rest of the galaxy, so that the Asari would remain the high species. This is a good start. And then it falls apart, because the similarities end there. Each species has bad actors. Dalatrass, many Krogan, Saren, OG Shadow Broker, Tela Vasir. The Council species did some Cerberus-level shit to the Krogans. Together. Nothing compares to Cerberus. They are despicable, and the first game makes this so abundantly clear that it is always frustrating to believe this is a genuine discussion. You forgot the batarians, salarians, geth and the quarians. Edit: oh, I also forgot the turians.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 11, 2023 23:19:07 GMT
Meh. If Cerberus is evil so is everyone else. Everyone does shady shit in the ME franchise. Ok, I'll play. Cerberus is evil, so the Asari are evil. The Asari are evil because they hid stuff from the rest of the galaxy, so that the Asari would remain the high species. This is a good start. And then it falls apart, because the similarities end there. Each species has bad actors. Dalatrass, many Krogan, Saren, OG Shadow Broker, Tela Vasir. The Council species did some Cerberus-level shit to the Krogans. Together. Nothing compares to Cerberus. They are despicable, and the first game makes this so abundantly clear that it is always frustrating to believe this is a genuine discussion. Exactly. Like the Asari example only the highest Matriarchs knew of the beacon. Even Tevos the Asari Councilor didn’t know until they told her to tell Shepard. As you said, the difference is the races have bad actors while with Cerberus that’s all there is. They either are evil, defect once they learn the truth like the scientists or the Normandy crew (who were never even really Cerberus but just recruited to make the organization look good to Shepard), or are turned into advanced husks.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2023 17:20:29 GMT
Ok, I'll play. Cerberus is evil, so the Asari are evil. The Asari are evil because they hid stuff from the rest of the galaxy, so that the Asari would remain the high species. This is a good start. And then it falls apart, because the similarities end there. Each species has bad actors. Dalatrass, many Krogan, Saren, OG Shadow Broker, Tela Vasir. The Council species did some Cerberus-level shit to the Krogans. Together. Nothing compares to Cerberus. They are despicable, and the first game makes this so abundantly clear that it is always frustrating to believe this is a genuine discussion. You forgot the batarians, salarians, geth and the quarians. Edit: oh, I also forgot the turians. I said "The Council species". These are Salarians, Asari, Turians, and now Humans. I left out the Geth and Quarians, because their story is different. The Quarians created the Geth... that's a whole level of meta on a different story level. Creator myths and horrible truths.
The Batarians seem like scum, because of the actions of the few. The Humans appear as scum, because of the actions of one - Shepard. There are bad actors all over the place, in every group. Oh, yeah, don't forget the humans are also scum, because of Cerberus. I heard Shepard was working for them when....
Cerberus is 100% bad actors. For Humanity's Sake! Even if we turn Humans into husks to do it, it's because it's ok if it hurts me to own the libs!
Cerberus - torturing humans to help humanity, since 2157!
Cerberus - Yes, we hate aliens. But we hate people too!
Cerberus - Actually mustache twirling villains from day one
Cerberus - I had friends on that Death Star!
The Cerberus apologists are the same as the Imperial lovers. Lol the Empire did nothing wrong. Meanwhile the billions of dead people floating through space from Alderaan smile and wave at the 2 million floaters from the Death Star.
2000x more people died, but the Empire did nothing wrong and Cerberus is totally cool.
It is fine for people to troll with this, and have fun with it. It is a problem when people actually believe that this is a correct way of thinking. I am saying to you, Son of Dorn - if this entertains you, fine. If you believe this, please say so plainly so I can stop talking to you about anything more than superficial. Judging from your actual username, and what I can remember about that name, I think you're just having fun. That's great, but maybe pull back the curtain every so often.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jan 12, 2023 17:35:50 GMT
You forgot the batarians, salarians, geth and the quarians. Edit: oh, I also forgot the turians. I said "The Council species". These are Salarians, Asari, Turians, and now Humans. I left out the Geth and Quarians, because their story is different. The Quarians created the Geth... that's a whole level of meta on a different story level. Creator myths and horrible truths.
The Batarians seem like scum, because of the actions of the few. The Humans appear as scum, because of the actions of one - Shepard. There are bad actors all over the place, in every group. Oh, yeah, don't forget the humans are also scum, because of Cerberus. I heard Shepard was working for them when....
Cerberus is 100% bad actors. For Humanity's Sake! Even if we turn Humans into husks to do it, it's because it's ok if it hurts me to own the libs!
Cerberus - torturing humans to help humanity, since 2157!
Cerberus - Yes, we hate aliens. But we hate people too!
Cerberus - Actually mustache twirling villains from day one
Cerberus - I had friends on that Death Star!
The Cerberus apologists are the same as the Imperial lovers. Lol the Empire did nothing wrong. Meanwhile the billions of dead people floating through space from Alderaan smile and wave at the 2 million floaters from the Death Star.
2000x more people died, but the Empire did nothing wrong and Cerberus is totally cool.
It is fine for people to troll with this, and have fun with it. It is a problem when people actually believe that this is a correct way of thinking. I am saying to you, Son of Dorn - if this entertains you, fine. If you believe this, please say so plainly so I can stop talking to you about anything more than superficial. Judging from your actual username, and what I can remember about that name, I think you're just having fun. That's great, but maybe pull back the curtain every so often. I'm not having fun with anything. Just pointing out that shady shit was going on way before Cerberus was a thing in the ME universe. Something that most ME fans like to skim over... But no, what I really believe about in the ME universe is that everyone is a dumbass in the ME universe. So, that's my two cents, take it as you will.
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Post by themikefest on Jan 12, 2023 17:53:54 GMT
Exactly. Like the Asari example only the highest Matriarchs knew of the beacon. Even Tevos the Asari Councilor didn’t know until they told her to tell Shepard. That's only true for Tevos, right? Since I've never saved the council, I get the replacements. The replacement asari knew about the artifact.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jan 12, 2023 17:56:57 GMT
Exactly. Like the Asari example only the highest Matriarchs knew of the beacon. Even Tevos the Asari Councilor didn’t know until they told her to tell Shepard. That's only true for Tevos, right? Since I've never saved the council, I get the replacements. The replacement asari knew about the artifact. Yeah, I noticed how nervous her body language was.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 12, 2023 21:56:56 GMT
That's only true for Tevos, right? Since I've never saved the council, I get the replacements. The replacement asari knew about the artifact. Yes, Irissa knew about the artifact since she’s one of the top Asari Matriarchs. Tevos meanwhile you can hear in her voice and her body language that this was all new to her and was still processing it. That's only true for Tevos, right? Since I've never saved the council, I get the replacements. The replacement asari knew about the artifact. Yeah, I noticed how nervous her body language was. I like how they added those subtle differences for the two Councilors.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 17, 2023 21:39:29 GMT
Meh. If Cerberus is evil so is everyone else. Everyone does shady shit in the ME franchise. Not that shady. Sorry, but I don't buy turning people into husks as equivalent to the shady shit a lot of others do. And I'm talking about ME1.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 17, 2023 21:42:13 GMT
Exactly. Like the Asari example only the highest Matriarchs knew of the beacon. Even Tevos the Asari Councilor didn’t know until they told her to tell Shepard. That's only true for Tevos, right? Since I've never saved the council, I get the replacements. The replacement asari knew about the artifact. She's an idiot regardless. Her "we don't wish to upset the balance of power" is pure bull. Do like every race is forced to do and make the findings of the Prothean artifact available to all. The asari were the perfect example of "Rules for thee but not for me".
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Post by skeptictank on Jan 17, 2023 23:53:20 GMT
I want a female krogan named Mordin.
Bonus if she's something unexpected like a cloaking infiltrator. Because a sneaky krogan is both hilarious and terrifying to me.
I'd also like a batarian. To break the monotony of "evil batarians".
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Post by themikefest on Jan 18, 2023 0:24:35 GMT
That's only true for Tevos, right? Since I've never saved the council, I get the replacements. The replacement asari knew about the artifact. She's an idiot regardless. Her "we don't wish to upset the balance of power" is pure bull. Do like every race is forced to do and make the findings of the Prothean artifact available to all. The asari were the perfect example of "Rules for thee but not for me". Ah yes, the balance of power. It means we want to remain top dog even if it means the other species are wiped out. Good thing the reapers came knocking on their backdoor to force them to come clean with their dirty little secret. That's why I like to have an ME4. To see the aftermath of the reaper war. What punishment would be handed to the asari? I doubt anything will happen since Bioware doesn't want anything happening to the precious.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jan 18, 2023 7:27:10 GMT
Meh. If Cerberus is evil so is everyone else. Everyone does shady shit in the ME franchise. Not that shady. Sorry, but I don't buy turning people into husks as equivalent to the shady shit a lot of others do. And I'm talking about ME1. Not as shady as the asari hiding a genetic defect that kills whenever they try to mate? Or the asari and salarians using other races as meatshields because their military sucks? Or allowing the batarians to enslave anyone (and do whatever they please) for X number of years? Or the alliance, who created Cerberus in the first place and before Cerberus split off from them, green lighted their operations?
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 19, 2023 1:24:08 GMT
She's an idiot regardless. Her "we don't wish to upset the balance of power" is pure bull. Do like every race is forced to do and make the findings of the Prothean artifact available to all. The asari were the perfect example of "Rules for thee but not for me". Ah yes, the balance of power. It means we want to remain top dog even if it means the other species are wiped out. Good thing the reapers came knocking on their backdoor to force them to come clean with their dirty little secret. That's why I like to have an ME4. To see the aftermath of the reaper war. What punishment would be handed to the asari? I doubt anything will happen since Bioware doesn't want anything happening to the precious. That's entirely true. The ones most in need of punishment are the ones who kept the secrets - like the asari councilor and other matriarchs who knew about it. Their butts should be to the fire, for sure, but I doubt the average grunt on Thessia knew anything. In fact, we know they didn't. Which, of course, did not matter at all when it came to punishing the quarians. Probably most had no involvement with the creation and use of AI. But they were all punished. That's likely what will have to happen to the asari. It's not even about hiding the secret all along. It's about how they withheld it while the galaxy burned because they had thus far been untouched.
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