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Post by mattfon on Jan 18, 2023 4:35:32 GMT
For both genders that is. It's like the one of the few realtionships that haven't been explored in bioware games, at least recently.
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Post by Pounce de León on Jan 18, 2023 6:21:45 GMT
Throatjobs? I rather like my games less explicit and more innocent.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Jan 18, 2023 8:10:10 GMT
I'm not fussed either way on whether there are relationships containing more than two individuals in future games.
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Edit 77
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Jan 20, 2023 5:58:55 GMT
Coding nightmare, I would have thought. Unless only two NPCs are going to be available to take part in the relationship (which isn’t a necessarily bad idea, since not everyone is going to be into polyamory), but then they run the risk of annoying people who don’t like both those two.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2023 6:57:31 GMT
Coding nightmare, I would have thought. Unless only two NPCs are going to be available to take part in the relationship (which isn’t a necessarily bad idea, since not everyone is going to be into polyamory), but then they run the risk of annoying people who don’t like both those two. A can of worms, in so many ways.
I support everyone in their pursuit of romance and happiness as long as every one is a consenting adult. However, this sort of inclusiveness is damned difficult to incorporate without being shoehorned, and BioWare has already had a few run-ins with half-assed representation for representation's sake.
In my opinion, AAA dungeon crawler is not where you will find this content. It appeals to a small demographic, which makes the amount of work required to give it justice hard to balance with making an excellent game that every one else wants to play.
I needed a day to just not be crass about it. The branches in dialog alone make me twitch thinking about conditional nodes... so much content gets lost in dialog trees because of their complexity and all it takes is small mistakes to have quality content inaccessible as a result. KotOR has a lot of this, Mass Effect had it. This adds a whole new dimension, and in programming a dimension is, uh, a lot?
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Jan 20, 2023 7:09:20 GMT
Coding nightmare, I would have thought. Unless only two NPCs are going to be available to take part in the relationship (which isn’t a necessarily bad idea, since not everyone is going to be into polyamory), but then they run the risk of annoying people who don’t like both those two. A can of worms, in so many ways. I support everyone in their pursuit of romance and happiness as long as every one is a consenting adult. However, this sort of inclusiveness is damned difficult to incorporate without being shoehorned, and BioWare has already had a few run-ins with half-assed representation for representation's sake. In my opinion, AAA dungeon crawler is not where you will find this content. It appeals to a small demographic, which makes the amount of work required to give it justice hard to balance with making an excellent game that every one else wants to play. I needed a day to just not be crass about it. The branches in dialog alone make me twitch thinking about conditional nodes... so much content gets lost in dialog trees because of their complexity and all it takes is small mistakes to have quality content inaccessible as a result. KotOR has a lot of this, Mass Effect had it. This adds a whole new dimension, and in programming a dimension is, uh, a lot?
The only way I could see it being feasible from a programming viewpoint is for there to be only two romance options; one male, one female and for both of them to be open to either gender and monogamous or polygamous relationships that involve the two of them plus the player. I can imagine that going down like a lump of cold vomit.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 20, 2023 8:26:06 GMT
I remember BioWare saying that they were interested in doing this at some point, but due to as mentioned it being a coding nightmare the only feasible way for it to work is if both of the others are in a relationship already or will always enter a relationship.
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Gileadan
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Agent 46
Clearance Level Ultra
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: ALoneGretchin
Posts: 2,911 Likes: 7,463
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Post by Gileadan on Jan 20, 2023 8:31:54 GMT
I do coding for a living and I really wouldn't want to have to do this. Building convoluted condition trees isn't that much fun.
Also I find it interesting that the most "brb gotta google this" moments happen whenever someone post a special romance request.
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Post by fairdragon on Jan 20, 2023 10:11:41 GMT
A can of worms, in so many ways. I support everyone in their pursuit of romance and happiness as long as every one is a consenting adult. However, this sort of inclusiveness is damned difficult to incorporate without being shoehorned, and BioWare has already had a few run-ins with half-assed representation for representation's sake. In my opinion, AAA dungeon crawler is not where you will find this content. It appeals to a small demographic, which makes the amount of work required to give it justice hard to balance with making an excellent game that every one else wants to play. I needed a day to just not be crass about it. The branches in dialog alone make me twitch thinking about conditional nodes... so much content gets lost in dialog trees because of their complexity and all it takes is small mistakes to have quality content inaccessible as a result. KotOR has a lot of this, Mass Effect had it. This adds a whole new dimension, and in programming a dimension is, uh, a lot?
The only way I could see it being feasible from a programming viewpoint is for there to be only two romance options; one male, one female and for both of them to be open to either gender and monogamous or polygamous relationships that involve the two of them plus the player. I can imagine that going down like a lump of cold vomit. Pathfinder Kingmaker have something like that. Octavia and Regongar. The problem here was the programming. Owlcat have done some restrictions. You could romance Octavia, Regongar or Octavia and Regongar but you needed to do the right decisions. It wasn't loved so they don't do it in WotR.
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Post by fairdragon on Jan 20, 2023 10:21:01 GMT
Building convoluted condition trees isn't that much fun. Do you think choices and consequences are also hard to programm?
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N5
Agent 46
Clearance Level Ultra
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: ALoneGretchin
Posts: 2,911 Likes: 7,463
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Post by Gileadan on Jan 20, 2023 11:22:00 GMT
Building convoluted condition trees isn't that much fun. Do you think choices and consequences are also hard to programm? The average choice and consequence in BioWare games should not be hard to code, i.e. something like Save the Chargers or Save the Dreadnought. It's a binary choice, the flip of a switch, and as a result the Chargers disappear and Bull may betray you later or not. Those just become a bugger if you try to drag them with you into the next game because then you have many switches from many such quests in previous games which in my opinion is not worth the effort. Romances however have a whole sequence of conversations and quests during the course of one game that may influence the outcome i.e. many such switches, and if the protagonist were to romance two people at the same time you'd either have to account for any combination of this series of switches - what if one likes you but not the other at different stages with all the necessary dialogue to go with that etc. - or just simplify the whole thing somehow to get rid of that added complexity. Caveat: coding anything can become (needlessly) convoluted if your code base deteriorates enough into spaghetti.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Jan 20, 2023 12:54:29 GMT
I think the smart way for BioWare to do a poly relationship would be to stick with a situation where there's a pre-established couple that the player character can join if they want. The problem with Octavia and Regongar in Kingmaker is that the game tries to have its cake and eat it too by letting the player date both of them or break them up and date them individually but if you break them up the one you aren't dating dies , which is a pretty wild consequence for the player not being interested in a threesome. There would probably be more dialogue in a romance the PC was having with two characters instead of one, but the choices aren't inherently more complex to chart than a romance with one person.
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Post by thecommandershepard on Jan 20, 2023 13:05:14 GMT
This is unlikely to happen, even dao didn't include polyamorous relationships, and they didn't really worry much about giving players a great deal of freedom in their choices as it was the first game in the franchise, so they probably didn't think much about the save/import function. You could technically use a flaw in the game mechanic to end up in romance in Dao, but the story doesn't make sense (none of your companions will be fine with the warden having a polyamorous relationship with other companions; even Zevran won't like that you're leading others on), and they removed the option of romancing multiple companions at the same time from Keep. Bioware is already struggling to incorporate existing options and frequently has to disregard the consequences of choices made by following the same linear path. An excellent example is Leliana, who pretty much always ends up as the same person in the same place with the same role and pretty much the same backstory. Romance her; it makes little difference; befriend her; it makes almost no difference; harden her or leave her unhardened; don't recruit her or force her to leave; the outcome is about the same; kill her; well, she is resurrected, and she is pretty much the same person in the same role. She is almost always set on the same linear path (with minor variations), regardless of the realistically significant impact of your choice on her life. This is often a reoccurring theme with choices. The more they pull it off, the less plausible the setting or story is and the less satisfying your choices are (because they don't really matter because it never or rarely makes any major or significant difference in the world or story). As a result, it appears that since Origins approach is to limit the number of paths you can take while still allowing you to roleplay characters, so there isn't too much branching. For example, all divines are, to varying degrees, pro-mage divines who either place mages in positions of power, loosen circles, or abolish them entirely. If you had access to extremes in choosing the divine like pro-templar Arlic or Lambert, who want either tranquil mages or significantly increased restrictions on mages in circles, and pro-mage Leliana, who wants to abolish circles, it would be difficult to bring the story or world into a linear path; you would have to branch the world or story so that each such divine player could choose significantly to stay within plausible deniability.
Now you're possibly asking how large-scale decisions like choosing the divine relate to smaller scale decisions regarding romancing two companions. The problem is that Bioware, at least in the case of Dragon Age, loves cameos and reintroduces previous characters in new games and products. Because their games use save/choice import from previous games, implementing such characters (particularly in any significant role or event) will be more difficult to pass credibly. In terms of products outside of games that have canon save import, there are issues resulting from save import that are carried into the games. Perhaps now question is, how? Simply put, those products frequently involve characters from games that you can impact in significant ways in those games, even killing them outright, and some of them play a crucial role in events of those EU stories, while events during those are frequently referenced in games or/and are significant influences on or even outright causalities of events in the game.For an example (spoilers from Asunder), in Asunder Wynne (who could be killed in Origins at three different points in the game), a major role is played in the events leading up to her death, including transferring her spirit into Evangeline to resurrect or revive her at the cost of her own life. How is that relevant? The problem is that Evangeline is always alive in DAI, even if you import your choices with Wynne dead in DAO. Cole mentions that Wynne (Rhyses mother) died for the Templar that he loved (Evangeline). So I think they messed up in DAI and failed to account for the eventuality of a player killing in DAO. Given all this, they will likely try to keep complexity down by limiting the number and/or degree of difference in choices as much as they can without jeopardizing the story too much, so they don't make things too complex for themselves in the future.
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Jan 20, 2023 16:40:18 GMT
I think the smart way for BioWare to do a poly relationship would be to stick with a situation where there's a pre-established couple that the player character can join if they want. The problem with Octavia and Regongar in Kingmaker is that the game tries to have its cake and eat it too by letting the player date both of them or break them up and date them individually but if you break them up the one you aren't dating dies , which is a pretty wild consequence for the player not being interested in a threesome. There would probably be more dialogue in a romance the PC was having with two characters instead of one, but the choices aren't inherently more complex to chart than a romance with one person. Interestingly enough BioWare is introducing some pre-established relationships in the next game - Evka and Antoine as well as Teia and Viago. So maybe there will be something there… but to be honest, if the PC tries trying to get involved, I get the sense there’ll be more drama than a happy poly romance lol.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 20, 2023 16:42:49 GMT
I think the smart way for BioWare to do a poly relationship would be to stick with a situation where there's a pre-established couple that the player character can join if they want. The problem with Octavia and Regongar in Kingmaker is that the game tries to have its cake and eat it too by letting the player date both of them or break them up and date them individually but if you break them up the one you aren't dating dies , which is a pretty wild consequence for the player not being interested in a threesome. There would probably be more dialogue in a romance the PC was having with two characters instead of one, but the choices aren't inherently more complex to chart than a romance with one person. Interestingly enough BioWare is introducing some pre-established relationships in the next game - Evka and Antoine as well as Teia and Viago. So maybe there will be something there… but to be honest, if the PC tries trying to get involved, I get the sense there’ll be more drama than a happy poly romance lol. There is also Charter and Tessa.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Jan 20, 2023 17:38:23 GMT
Coding nightmare, I would have thought. Unless only two NPCs are going to be available to take part in the relationship (which isn’t a necessarily bad idea, since not everyone is going to be into polyamory), but then they run the risk of annoying people who don’t like both those two. Make it work with Qunari and Dwarf combinations!
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Jan 20, 2023 20:28:49 GMT
Coding nightmare, I would have thought. Unless only two NPCs are going to be available to take part in the relationship (which isn’t a necessarily bad idea, since not everyone is going to be into polyamory), but then they run the risk of annoying people who don’t like both those two. Make it work with Qunari and Dwarf combinations! Get. Out.
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Post by Fredward on Jan 21, 2023 7:38:29 GMT
Yes please. I'd be fine with the player entering into an established couple and it's been done before, like in Pathfinder Kingmaker. I've been playing a lot of interactive fiction games recently and the dynamic can be pretty fun/compelling. Mind you, I wouldn't expect that degree of detail since Bioware isn't making romance games or games that feature a robust romance element but I think it could be interesting. I also don't know if it'd be THAT complicated if it's either starting with an established couple the PC can enter or a triangle where the PC can end up with either/both.
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Post by Walter Black on Jan 21, 2023 15:22:30 GMT
Coding nightmare, I would have thought. Unless only two NPCs are going to be available to take part in the relationship (which isn’t a necessarily bad idea, since not everyone is going to be into polyamory), but then they run the risk of annoying people who don’t like both those two. I don't find the notion that just because some people might not like one or both potential Love Interests in a hypothetical threesome, then it shouldn't even be considered particularly compelling. Pretty much all Bioware LIs have haters for whatever they may or might not have provided. I realize some character archetypes will be more familiar, and thus safer for most customers. But if DA:D's writers aren't going to explore *any* new romance options beyond what they've already done, I'm less inclined to be interested. Oh, and to the notion that such LIs would steal a slot from other types, the writers would be "depriving options" to someone, somewhere no matter what they do. I do agree that an already established couple that invites the protagonist to join would be simpler in the long run. As previously stated, PATHFINDER: KINGMAKER allowed players to romance only one or both, so it can be done.
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Sandetiger
N3
beez nuts
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sandetiger on May 5, 2023 19:58:05 GMT
To my understanding, BioWare has done a poly romance exactly once in their games, and that was in Jade Empire with a triad that was framed as your character being unable to pick between two people and going "why not both" (ME1's femshep romance confrontation, anyone? lol) I know this has been touched on before, and in particular Patrick Weekes has talked about it. 1/ They had a tweet in 2015 where they said: "A poly trio, where it is always a trio, is maybe the only way it could work for us (strictly in terms of scripting complication.)"2/ There was a Drunk, Dumped, and Dalish interview with Patrick and Karin Weekes in April 2020. The poly section is further down the page and does require some scrolling (alternatively, ctrl + f for relevant "poly" section), but they echo 5 years later the same problems posed in the 2015 tweet. There's more to it than this, but I'll excerpt a small quote from Patrick:
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Post by duskwanderer on May 14, 2023 16:28:53 GMT
Eugh, I'm not interested in them devoting too much time to boinky boinky. How about interesting characters with well written arcs?
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Post by phoray on May 14, 2023 23:12:11 GMT
For both genders that is. It's like the one of the few realtionships that haven't been explored in bioware games, at least recently. As a person who has explored open relationships before, I would prefer a situation where we can date one member of an already established couple. The person that wasn't directly romanced by the main character would just be cool with it, and we'd ultimately form a V. One with a fem appearance and the other with a masc appearance would be best. Approaching one only to hear they come as a pair or not at all is called, "Unicorn Hunting", is frowned on. In poly circles it is seen as dehumanizing and disempowering to the approaching single person, in that case our player character. And that isn't going to feel good, and will result in poorly representing a complex subculture.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 271 Likes: 271
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Post by mrobnoxiousuk on May 15, 2023 6:15:51 GMT
Coding nightmare, I would have thought. Unless only two NPCs are going to be available to take part in the relationship (which isn’t a necessarily bad idea, since not everyone is going to be into polyamory), but then they run the risk of annoying people who don’t like both those two. Make it work with Qunari and Dwarf combinations! Already been done, how do you think humans came about.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
PSN: The Ascendent
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Post by theascendent on May 17, 2023 16:21:15 GMT
The only time I've ever seen a video game competently portray a three person couple was in Pathfinder Kingmaker with the Half Elf Octavia and the Half Orc Regongar. You could romance one but the best outcome and most interesting interactions is romancing both. I just don't believe Bioware can portray this complex relationship type without insulting or deriding people.
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