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Post by Croatsky on Jan 23, 2023 14:31:56 GMT
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Post by Croatsky on Jan 23, 2023 14:50:29 GMT
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Post by kotoreffect3 on Jan 23, 2023 15:02:32 GMT
I wish him well, he put up with alot of crap over the years.
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Post by trinity0 on Jan 23, 2023 15:45:51 GMT
I think Mac was one of the last "Old" Bioware employees that was left from the good old times. He has done a lot of good things and some not so good things, but you can say he created together with all the other "Old" Bioware employees some of the best Computer Games ever.
Thank you for that!
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Post by talyn82 on Jan 23, 2023 16:05:40 GMT
Is this the writer who wrote most of ME3? If so ME3 is my favorite game in this series and yet another old BioWare vet leaves the company.
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Post by 10k on Jan 23, 2023 16:14:28 GMT
I wish him well, but I'm not sad to see him go.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jan 23, 2023 18:33:20 GMT
I wish him well, but I'm not sad to see him go. I got to say, I feel similarly. Yes, he was a big part of my beloved Mass Effect series ... but from everything I read and heard over the years, he was mostly responsible for all the things about the series that annoy me.
His "I don't care about the plot, only about the characters" attitude did the series a great disservice and I wonder what would have happened, had the likes of Drew Karpyshyn and Chris L'Etoille not left the writing team during the development of ME2.
So yeah, kudos on all his work over the years and I wish him well for whatever he does in the future but in the end, I can't help thinking that this is not a big loss for BioWare's writing team.
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Post by Croatsky on Jan 23, 2023 18:39:14 GMT
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jan 23, 2023 18:50:48 GMT
*dances in joy*
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Post by Croatsky on Jan 23, 2023 19:06:24 GMT
I wish him well, but I'm not sad to see him go. I got to say, I feel similarly. Yes, he was a big part of my beloved Mass Effect series ... but from everything I read and heard over the years, he was mostly responsible for all the things about the series that annoy me.
His "I don't care about the plot, only about the characters" attitude did ther series a great disservice and I wonder what would have happened, had the likes of Drew Karpyshyn and Chris L'Etoille not left the writing team during the development of ME2.
So yeah, kudos on all his work over the years and I wish him well for whatever he does in the future but in the end, I can't help thinking that this is not a big loss for BioWare's writing team.
Drew left in middle of ME2 development, so story structure would have stayed largely the same. The only thing that got cut out was focus on dark energy plot, which from what we can tell would have ended as terrible plotline anyway, but it was still baffling decision to simply delete the plotline while leave out stuff that was too late to delete. Such as Tali's recruitment mission.
Also it's not even correct, it's actually a myth. It wasn't until after DAI that BioWare realized focus on character is the goldmine. Reason why they left that impression is because character focused mission were simply the easiest thing to do for them.
So no, Drew staying wouldn't have make any difference to your critique.
Meanwhile Chris L'Etoille left BioWare after finishing ME2, so it that makes even less sense.
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Post by KrrKs on Jan 23, 2023 19:25:32 GMT
I got to say, I feel similarly. Yes, he was a big part of my beloved Mass Effect series ... but from everything I read and heard over the years, he was mostly responsible for all the things about the series that annoy me.
His "I don't care about the plot, only about the characters" attitude did ther series a great disservice and I wonder what would have happened, had the likes of Drew Karpyshyn and Chris L'Etoille not left the writing team during the development of ME2.
So yeah, kudos on all his work over the years and I wish him well for whatever he does in the future but in the end, I can't help thinking that this is not a big loss for BioWare's writing team.
Drew left in middle of ME2 development, so story structure would have stayed largely the same. The only thing that got cut out was focus on dark energy plot, which from what we can tell would have ended as terrible plotline anyway, but it was still baffling decision to simply delete the plotline while leave out stuff that was too late to delete. Such as Tali's recruitment mission.
Also it's not even correct, it's actually a myth. It wasn't until after DAI that BioWare realized focus on character is the goldmine. Reason why they left that impression is because character focused mission were simply the easiest thing to do for them.
So no, Drew staying wouldn't have make any difference to your critique.
Meanwhile Chris L'Etoille left BioWare after finishing ME2, so it that makes even less sense.
While the timing may be off on some details, Andromedary has a vital point. The transition to more character, less story happened while Mac was lead writer - which lead to the infamous Legion with N7 Armour because 'there was a hole'. The majority of ME2 consists of character driven recruitment and loyalty missions - without DLCs that's 17 (IIRC) of those compared to the 3 (!) non prologue main missions. And that was definitely way before DAI.
That said, while if find the focus on the characters and rule of cool over substance that he seemed to favour tiresome, he was also largely responsible for key moments of the series. I don't know whether him going will have more negative or positive affects on the future of mass effect, but i'm certain that it will have large effect. So Kudos and farewell Mac!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2023 22:11:54 GMT
Good and bad. Personally, I am relieved and feel that the staff desperately needed new leadership and focus. In my opinion, he has great ideas in confined settings, and fails when it comes to building something cohesive over more games in that IPs setting.
I have undeniably loved a lot of his work. I have been unfairly critical of him at times, as have many others. He deserves a chance to breathe for a bit, and then do more of what he loves.
Just because he was there a long time, doesn't mean his writing goals and the studios were always aligned. Like a say about all of these devs and studios -
Make me a great game, I will pay you well for it and give thanks and praises. Mac might have a few more awesome stories to tell, and if so I want to check that out. He can also ride off into the gaming sunset and do literally anything else.
So, not sad he's left. Also personally happy for him.
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Post by themikefest on Jan 24, 2023 0:18:14 GMT
With him gone, I would be curious if someone were to ask him what he meant by the ending could have been better what his answer would be. He said that in an interview in late spring/early summer of 2016.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jan 24, 2023 2:59:03 GMT
Drew left in middle of ME2 development, so story structure would have stayed largely the same. The only thing that got cut out was focus on dark energy plot, which from what we can tell would have ended as terrible plotline anyway, but it was still baffling decision to simply delete the plotline while leave out stuff that was too late to delete. Such as Tali's recruitment mission.
Also it's not even correct, it's actually a myth. It wasn't until after DAI that BioWare realized focus on character is the goldmine. Reason why they left that impression is because character focused mission were simply the easiest thing to do for them.
So no, Drew staying wouldn't have make any difference to your critique.
Meanwhile Chris L'Etoille left BioWare after finishing ME2, so it that makes even less sense.
While the timing may be off on some details, Andromedary has a vital point. The transition to more character, less story happened while Mac was lead writer - which lead to the infamous Legion with N7 Armour because 'there was a hole'. The majority of ME2 consists of character driven recruitment and loyalty missions - without DLCs that's 17 (IIRC) of those compared to the 3 (!) non prologue main missions. And that was definitely way before DAI.
That said, while if find the focus on the characters and rule of cool over substance that he seemed to favour tiresome, he was also largely responsible for key moments of the series. I don't know whether him going will have more negative or positive affects on the future of mass effect, but i'm certain that it will have large effect. So Kudos and farewell Mac!
That's kinda my thoughts too.
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Post by hulluliini on Jan 24, 2023 8:27:31 GMT
With him gone, I would be curious if someone were to ask him what he meant by the ending could have been better what his answer would be. He said that in an interview in late spring/early summer of 2016. Can you find the source? I can ask him but I need a link to refresh his memory.
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Croatsky
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Post by Croatsky on Jan 24, 2023 10:35:06 GMT
While the timing may be off on some details, Andromedary has a vital point. The transition to more character, less story happened while Mac was lead writer - which lead to the infamous Legion with N7 Armour because 'there was a hole'. The majority of ME2 consists of character driven recruitment and loyalty missions - without DLCs that's 17 (IIRC) of those compared to the 3 (!) non prologue main missions. And that was definitely way before DAI.
That said, while if find the focus on the characters and rule of cool over substance that he seemed to favour tiresome, he was also largely responsible for key moments of the series. I don't know whether him going will have more negative or positive affects on the future of mass effect, but i'm certain that it will have large effect. So Kudos and farewell Mac!
Sorry, but I find it deeply unserious to call that scene "infamous".
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Post by themikefest on Jan 24, 2023 12:39:12 GMT
With him gone, I would be curious if someone were to ask him what he meant by the ending could have been better what his answer would be. He said that in an interview in late spring/early summer of 2016. Can you find the source? I can ask him but I need a link to refresh his memory. No. I have kicked myself many times for not keeping the link when I saw the interview. All I can say is the question was asked around the time I mentioned in my post.
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Post by KrrKs on Jan 24, 2023 19:26:35 GMT
Sorry, but I find it deeply unserious to call that scene "infamous". hm, sorry i probably picked to wrong word. I wanted to point out that scene (and the Legion situation as a whole) as one of the often quoted and most ridiculous examples of 'rule-of-cool over coherent logic'
Spoiler'd for brevity
The whole point that Legion went and plucked that whole with a piece of N7 armour -that legion could not even have retrieved on Eden Prime, where the shot that resulted in the whole occurred- is on of those questionable choices. Looks good on character, but makes zero sense in-universe.
Legions answers 'There was a hole' and 'No data available' when queried for that are basically Chris L'Etoille giving up on trying to find a way to make sense of that. I can't find the original source any-more, but there are several copies of his statements everywhere. Those made it quite clear that he was not a fan of those decisions and would have preferred it the other way around.
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Post by Vortex13 on Jan 24, 2023 19:57:27 GMT
And it was that sort of disregard for lore and internal logic that was likely one the the driving factors behind L'Etoille leaving. Mac Walters might have excelled at little character moments but placing that mentality of 'rule of cool' above all else drove out the few remaining science fiction writers that were left on the team. Perfect example is how Legion, and the Geth, are depicted in ME 2 with Chris L'Etoille's writing behind them compared to how Mac Walters wrote them in ME 3. In the span of one game they go from a collective swarm intelligence, one looking to build their own future outside Reaper influence, and an intelligent synthetic race in their own right. To Pinocchio bots gladly stuffing themselves full of Reaper code because they weren't "really alive" before they became exactly like everyone else.  If the departure of Walters means less of the later and more of the former I'm all for it.
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Post by Croatsky on Jan 24, 2023 20:53:22 GMT
Sorry, but I find it deeply unserious to call that scene "infamous". hm, sorry i probably picked to wrong word. I wanted to point out that scene (and the Legion situation as a whole) as one of the often quoted and most ridiculous examples of 'rule-of-cool over coherent logic'
Spoiler'd for brevity
The whole point that Legion went and plucked that whole with a piece of N7 armour -that legion could not even have retrieved on Eden Prime, where the shot that resulted in the whole occurred- is on of those questionable choices. Looks good on character, but makes zero sense in-universe.
Legions answers 'There was a hole' and 'No data available' when queried for that are basically Chris L'Etoille giving up on trying to find a way to make sense of that. I can't find the original source any-more, but there are several copies of his statements everywhere. Those made it quite clear that he was not a fan of those decisions and would have preferred it the other way around.
Eeeh, I think Chris was too focused on "geth must be truly alien" and couldn't consider that geth could evolve some individualistic "quirks" and even be confused about it themselves.
I mean hell, considering our real life A.I. development, A.I. are more likely to be super depressed incels and creeps. After all, our A.I.s are developed based on our real life existing data, so would geth but with quarians first, then followed with other species.
So while Legion's "No data available" line came from "rule of cool" it was however very much adaptable to have substance and logically coherent.
This may be more me having own views and at hindsight over a decade later, but we ought to not consider A.I.'s would be purely rational and logical. Computers are fast but dumb machines, so really A.I.'s would only have speed advantage over organics but not in coherent mind. Hell, BioWare sort of went with that direction anyway later on with EDI and especially SAM.
So yeah, I don't think loss of Chris was loss in quality for BioWare writing, but more case of clashing vision and BioWare consensus wasn't going where Chris wanted to go. Just different direction, not loss in quality.
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Post by hulluliini on Jan 25, 2023 8:21:56 GMT
I can't decide which version I prefer. On the one hand I remember that sense of elation at seeing Legion for the first time, wearing N7 armor, my mind immediately speculating on why an AI would do that. On the other hand, I like how Chris L'Etoille had spent a lot of time and effort on analysing the various forms of AI and decided that they must be different based on how they came to be, and I can recognise now the trope of the real boy and it's nice that he tried to downplay it as much as he could.
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Post by themikefest on Jan 25, 2023 12:05:25 GMT
ah yes, the geth wearing a piece of Shepard's N7 armor. Why? Because it was cool. Remember that? Here is what Chris said about that.
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Post by Croatsky on Jan 25, 2023 12:51:14 GMT
I can't decide which version I prefer. On the one hand I remember that sense of elation at seeing Legion for the first time, wearing N7 armor, my mind immediately speculating on why an AI would do that. On the other hand, I like how Chris L'Etoille had spent a lot of time and effort on analysing the various forms of AI and decided that they must be different based on how they came to be, and I can recognise now the trope of the real boy and it's nice that he tried to downplay it as much as he could. I have to say, I do dislike how Legion and Geth are portrayed as "real boy Pinocchio" trope, when it's not the case beyond surface level.
Also I know this only started to become a thing after one certain YouTuber said it in their very much flawed essey, because nobody was talking about that being an issue or that trope back in the day, no not even until few months ago.
Especially since it comes off very smug.
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Post by ClarkKent on Jan 25, 2023 15:54:11 GMT
Walters did some great things with Mass Effect and its characters. The Mass Effect series will miss him.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2023 16:50:44 GMT
Walters did some great things with Mass Effect and its characters. The Mass Effect series will miss him. Maybe? Again, not taking anything away from him as a human being, but.... people are replaced all the time, in all sorts of industry. I disagree. Mac doesn't hold any keys or secrets... we know the universe as well as the writers do. That means, ultimately, he is infinitely replaceable. Just need to have a talented person in the role. Mac is talented, so should his replacement be.
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