talyn82
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Post by talyn82 on Jun 2, 2023 1:31:20 GMT
Has there ever been any official word from BioWare as to the final death toll in the Citadel during the events of ME3? I mean the Reapers took it and moved it, and when Shepard is transported to the Citadel after the beam run. He/she is in a room filled with corpses of whom belong to some of the citizens of the Citadel. The Citadel was vast who knows how many such rooms existed in it during ME3? I assume everyone was killed including the Council. I don't see the AI or Reapers sparing anyone. In fact I don't remember now why it spoke to Shepard peacefully? Was it out of respect? Did it feel Shepard was the only one who could bring true change to the galaxy?
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Post by themikefest on Jun 2, 2023 1:35:48 GMT
Bioware, or rather Patrick Weekes, answered that question in 2012. No number is given as to how many perished, but a lot did survive.
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Post by talyn82 on Jun 2, 2023 2:38:40 GMT
Bioware, or rather Patrick Weekes, answered that question in 2012. No number is given as to how many perished, but a lot did survive. Okay question answered then. I just could have sworn in one of the ending before the Citadel shoots it's beam, it shows explosions in the arms of the Citadel. So basically if the next game takes place a few years after ME3 that damn Council is still alive, and yes in my first playthrough I chose not to save the Council in ME1, but the new Council was no different from the old one.
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Post by Pounce de León on Jun 2, 2023 12:34:08 GMT
100s of millions. It's always easy to crank up the narrative holocausts in stories for big effects and emotions, but once someone asks about the implications there is just cheap hand-waiving and appeasing ass-pulls.
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Post by flyingsquirrel on Jul 11, 2023 21:50:18 GMT
What's odd is that, in the scene where Shepard is talking to the Catalyst and the arms are visible in the background, you can see little points of light moving around, presumably from vehicles. I just assume that most of the population are hiding and I'm seeing automated empty vehicles - it's hard to imagine that the residents are just going about their daily lives under the circumstances.
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Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by talyn82 on Jul 12, 2023 23:26:30 GMT
100s of millions. It's always easy to crank up the narrative holocausts in stories for big effects and emotions, but once someone asks about the implications there is just cheap hand-waiving and appeasing ass-pulls. I expect the whole death toll of the Reaper invasion to be in the trillions in total. As for the Citadel I am like you I figured millions died. I mean there were explosions in the arms of the Citadel.
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Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by talyn82 on Jul 12, 2023 23:28:03 GMT
What's odd is that, in the scene where Shepard is talking to the Catalyst and the arms are visible in the background, you can see little points of light moving around, presumably from vehicles. I just assume that most of the population are hiding and I'm seeing automated empty vehicles - it's hard to imagine that the residents are just going about their daily lives under the circumstances. Man if I lived in that universe and was there when the Reapers invaded I'd be terrified and hiding.
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Post by Pounce de León on Jul 13, 2023 11:52:18 GMT
What's odd is that, in the scene where Shepard is talking to the Catalyst and the arms are visible in the background, you can see little points of light moving around, presumably from vehicles. I just assume that most of the population are hiding and I'm seeing automated empty vehicles - it's hard to imagine that the residents are just going about their daily lives under the circumstances. Man if I lived in that universe and was there when the Reapers invaded I'd be terrified and hiding. Not on a space station though. Unless it's a hidden asteroid base or so.
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Post by flyingsquirrel on Jul 13, 2023 14:45:23 GMT
Man if I lived in that universe and was there when the Reapers invaded I'd be terrified and hiding. Not on a space station though. Unless it's a hidden asteroid base or so. The game doesn't explain exactly how the Reapers moved the Citadel to Earth (cue "space magic" jokes), but I assume it happened quickly enough that most people weren't able to evacuate. If C-Sec is still able to communicate, I'd think they would have issued whatever the Citadel's equivalent is of a "shelter in place" order. I certainly don't think that places like the Presidium Commons shops or the Purgatory club would be operating normally.
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Post by SwobyJ on Jul 13, 2023 15:48:18 GMT
I'd imagine at least hundreds of thousands, if not millions.
Any less, and it kind of removes the point of the direness of the ending's tone. Maybe its possible, but it would be dumb. If only some thousands had been lost by this point, I'd have preferred the game insert a section where we rally the inhabitants, since clearly the Reapers actually suck at this. Yet, any more than it (several million, of the 100% of 13 million), and it wouldn't necessarily make sense as a place that the Reapers obtained very very recently and seem to be harvesting, not only mass slaughtering. We are given a sense that the Citadel's forces, whether C-Sec or civilian, could be able to hold out to a degree, and we can probably assume that its only been a maximum of days - not weeks, months - since the Citadel was moved to Earth.
Galaxy-wide, I think it depends. Yes, trillions of lives were at stake, but the point of the war effort and the Crucible was to save as many lives as possible, as soon as possible. 'Trillions' may be the total population of the known galaxy, but that could just amount to like, 2 trillion for all we know. Its obvious that the death toll came to billions, likely many billions, whether from the initial attack, the war, or damages post-war. Post-war, the numbers might vary wildly. A low EMS Destroy could mean double the deaths for all we know, until they just maybe find a way one day to rebuild the network. A high EMS Control could mean very low deaths, as an intervening force and new tech ensures that so many more lives are preserved (under the Overlord Shepard). Synthesis might save the most lives - or it arguably ends them all, if you have the most negative viewpoint about it. I just assume that somewhere in the tens to hundreds of billions died, but that within decades of all endings besides Refuse and MAYBE post-low Destroy, something of a strong galaxy has at least started to recover.
Certain worlds are wrecks. Batarian territory would be largely gone, while the Turian home world would be riddled with disaster zones and ruined battlefields, but Earth would be somewhere in between - where most surviving structures and landmarks will be automatically tagged as historical sites. Colonies would range from untouched but weakened from the war economy, to utterly obliterated.
People can have their issues with Bioware painting such a bleak tone with ME3's original ending, contrasting to post-release 'wait wait it wasn't so bad' dev commentary, but I believe that in-universe the gist is that the galaxy got stabbed, was bleeding out, but the Crucible allowed extraction of the weapon while the patient/galaxy lies in stable (higher EMS) or critical (lowest Destroy EMS) condition. There's still a body/organic society to save. What's effectively true is that no life was untouched by the war in some significant way, but I don't even think the majority of the population died during the war or even the years after. If the Crucible failed, then we can go off dialogue that the war would have been largely turned in the direction of Reapers' victory in the coming months (max) no matter what, the galactic economy and probably other systems would have been basically eradicated within a year (or two max), and just the coming decade would remove at least almost all signs of desperate resistance and maybe even the very presence of any survivors. But as it was, its easy instead to imagine that post-war, a basic normalcy could be restored within months, most clean-up and recovery (besides long term demographical issues etc) would be made within years, and unless something goes really wrong (like I dunno, Reaper tech/controlled Reapers causing chaos, or whatever other dilemmas), the Reaper War's damage starts becomes living history after a decade, and starts dropping from living memory within decades further (notwithstanding long living species memories; maybe add more centuries eg. ME5 Liara teaser). The scale of the conflict does matter, but otherwise, it can be seen akin to the pain done to our world after the WW1-WW2 period; severe but recoverable. Temporary (or especially permanent) loss of the relays would be terrible for so many, but I don't think we should write off the likely efforts of at least the fleet around Earth and its concentrated talent, in using any tech available to get something going again. We're given enough dialogue in the trilogy that the Council races (+ others really) COULD (and maybe are; ME5 could retcon some things in for sure) put resources into understanding the mass relays better enough to replicate them or even adapt new purposes, but governments and/or industry either didn't see the point, or maybe even suppressed such efforts so as to avoid another Rachni problem. That is to say, the Citadel probably didn't lose several million, it was just bound to if the harvest continued without interruption. And the galaxy didn't lose trillions or maybe even hundreds of billions, just many many billions, and it was bound to lose everyone if the harvest continued without actually being stopped.
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Post by SwobyJ on Jul 13, 2023 16:12:17 GMT
100s of millions. It's always easy to crank up the narrative holocausts in stories for big effects and emotions, but once someone asks about the implications there is just cheap hand-waiving and appeasing ass-pulls. I expect the whole death toll of the Reaper invasion to be in the trillions in total. As for the Citadel I am like you I figured millions died. I mean there were explosions in the arms of the Citadel. The total population of the known galaxy is 'trillions', and even several trillion should be considered extremely generous, and we are not given evidence of eradication of most major populated planets. Its certainly in that direction, and the dire situation just gets even moreso (Shepard victories like Krogan/Turian, Geth/Quarian, other War Assets, only buying time), but the Reapers intend on Harvesting, and that takes time. I'm willing to consider that in the worst endings, over a trillion die from at least the post-war effects, but I think what we're left with is 'trillions of lives are at stake', not 'trillions are dead'. That's more of a Javik Prothian experience. I have doubts that even hundreds of billions would be dead at the point of ME3 ending, but certainty the galaxy would reach that within just a year of the war. This was not a war of the scale of just millions, obviously, but we shouldn't assume, say, even 900 billion died. Batarian space was among the hardest hit, but its total population likely amounted to no more than tens of billions. Generally, the capital planets range from billions to tens of billions at the very highest (low, like 10 billion figures). There's not that many people to think of a death toll of trillions unless the Reapers are already wrapping up their Harvest. But they're not - they're arguably much earlier than half way into it, by the time of London. The Reapers are also focused on capital areas, not others (with centres in the millions of population), and these capitals are much more often in battlefield status, not an undisputed mass slaughter. So the Reapers got their surprise attack, and their initial territories (which could include such horrors as using public schools as slaughterhouses), but generally, they're facing resistance at every step. That's why there's the rationale of the relay network manipulation - in the usual cycle, the Reapers could wipe out most resistance quickly. Instead, our Council galaxy cycle that might otherwise be an ideal harvest (disparate societies, political feuds, no AI help), instead got a little advance warning, an agent (Shepard) to advance a resistance and bring factions to the table, and gaining surprising Prothean insights quickly (Liara, Crucible teams). The Reapers are facing battles against the Milky Wayers that they might have only very rarely encountered before (perhaps most typically in the also anomalous Prothean cycle). Teams are entering Reapers and exploding them from within, and this could be actually relatively astonishing stuff. They're not just rounding everyone up and quickly killing them by the hundreds of millions, beyond the initial attacks. Its a grind of many months and even years, even if a Milky Way just years from ME3's ending point would be an unrecognizable hellscape that we'd want to avoid happening at any cost.
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Post by talyn82 on Jul 14, 2023 0:23:37 GMT
SwobyJ Really great detailed posts with a lot of info I did not know. I got the trillions figure from the fact that compared to the Asari, Turians, Salarians, Krogan's and Volus to name a few, humans are a young species. Many of the other species had thousands of years to explore space and colonize worlds before earth found the Prothean ruins on Mars. I had figured the total population was in the trillions. But I had forgotten to take into account the EMS scores and what will be the true canon ending. I just figured since the Reapers where attacking almost all over the milky way that the final death tolls would be staggering. Heh, if a high EMS score is the canon than the alliance of the milky way species did better than the Protheans and those who came before.
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Post by SwobyJ on Jul 14, 2023 0:41:09 GMT
SwobyJ Really great detailed posts with a lot of info I did not know. I got the trillions figure from the fact that compared to the Asari, Turians, Salarians, Krogan's and Volus to name a few, humans are a young species. Many of the other species had thousands of years to explore space and colonize worlds before earth found the Prothean ruins on Mars. I had figured the total population was in the trillions. But I had forgotten to take into account the EMS scores and what will be the true canon ending. I just figured since the Reapers where attacking almost all over the milky way that the final death tolls would be staggering. Heh, if a high EMS score is the canon than the alliance of the milky way species did better than the Protheans and those who came before. The Reapers are attacking all over, but they have areas they've concentrated on, and areas they're largely having to ignore for now. They're also taking months to even reach sections of the known galaxy. There's apparently (unless Bioware take that out) trillions in the galaxy, according to NPC dialogue, but that might instead be an upper estimate to include the known and unknown space. I'm not sure. But we're not talking about trillions dead due to the war, during the war. That would only even be possible if all the Reapers went to all the populated worlds and annihilated them with nukes or something, everywhere. Despite how we may view things one way or another (their motives, tactics, ethics or lack thereof), the Reapers work to 'preserve' a species so they're going to prioritize uploading our material/our minds (speculatory) above almost any other action than necessary direct combat. That takes resources, its takes time, and a measure of patience even for their machine efficiencies. They're on Earth converting our capitals, but they're not in all the remote towns and small cities so much, and if they are, there may be local resistance that's successful for weeks, or even months, once the shocking first wave is endured. Its just that the grind after is horrific - the mental anguish, the resource starvation, the indoctrination (individual and groups), it all just gets worse and worse and I dread any future ME game that decides to do more detailed flashback/historical scenes. I just know that its clearly the case that the Milky Way isn't being outright swiftly steamrolled, its moving refugees as much as it can (preserving lives), and there's many points where territory would be taken and retaken over and over before any higher deathtoll (of civilians) occurs. We send the Krogan into Palaven in order to keep *billions* more Turians from dying *much sooner*.
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PSN: Talyn82
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Post by talyn82 on Jul 14, 2023 1:13:50 GMT
SwobyJ Really great detailed posts with a lot of info I did not know. I got the trillions figure from the fact that compared to the Asari, Turians, Salarians, Krogan's and Volus to name a few, humans are a young species. Many of the other species had thousands of years to explore space and colonize worlds before earth found the Prothean ruins on Mars. I had figured the total population was in the trillions. But I had forgotten to take into account the EMS scores and what will be the true canon ending. I just figured since the Reapers where attacking almost all over the milky way that the final death tolls would be staggering. Heh, if a high EMS score is the canon than the alliance of the milky way species did better than the Protheans and those who came before. The Reapers are attacking all over, but they have areas they've concentrated on, and areas they're largely having to ignore for now. They're also taking months to even reach sections of the known galaxy. There's apparently (unless Bioware take that out) trillions in the galaxy, according to NPC dialogue, but that might instead be an upper estimate to include the known and unknown space. I'm not sure. But we're not talking about trillions dead due to the war, during the war. That would only even be possible if all the Reapers went to all the populated worlds and annihilated them with nukes or something, everywhere. Despite how we may view things one way or another (their motives, tactics, ethics or lack thereof), the Reapers work to 'preserve' a species so they're going to prioritize uploading our material/our minds (speculatory) above almost any other action than necessary direct combat. That takes resources, its takes time, and a measure of patience even for their machine efficiencies. They're on Earth converting our capitals, but they're not in all the remote towns and small cities so much, and if they are, there may be local resistance that's successful for weeks, or even months, once the shocking first wave is endured. Its just that the grind after is horrific - the mental anguish, the resource starvation, the indoctrination (individual and groups), it all just gets worse and worse and I dread any future ME game that decides to do more detailed flashback/historical scenes. I just know that its clearly the case that the Milky Way isn't being outright swiftly steamrolled, its moving refugees as much as it can (preserving lives), and there's many points where territory would be taken and retaken over and over before any higher deathtoll (of civilians) occurs. We send the Krogan into Palaven in order to keep *billions* more Turians from dying *much sooner*. You make good points and bring up interesting topics like major cities being targeted first and the small towns being left for later. Also I remember now Javik saying that the Prothean war with the Reapers took centuries. It wasn't just one big invasion but several battles over the centuries. I also forgot when I first said trillions that the current cycle won the war. In the previous cycles the Reapers initially won and then the rest of the galaxy fell over time, and the civilizations were systematically erased.
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Post by Blast Processor on Jul 14, 2023 1:37:26 GMT
There was also this quote from Mac Walters just days after the release of ME3, "Some escaped before the arms were closed. But for many...Bad times." I had a look for the source, but it seems to be lost to time.
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It was a tweet from March 8th and he later deleted it. Which makes sense, what a thing to be tweeting two days after the game launched. Haha.
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Post by themikefest on Jul 14, 2023 2:31:02 GMT
Hmmm..... death toll. Here's about how many humans were processed on Earth each day. Now listen to what Shepard says to Tali in London. A few months. I will assume few to be 3. For about 90 days the reapers have been harvesting Earth equaling to over 167 million dead. Let's stretch the few to be 4. That would be about 223 million dead. Nearly 2% of Earth's population. No idea how many dead on other planets. As I posted above, Bioware didn't give a number of deaths on the Citadel. Just said there were survivors. The Citadel houses about 13 million. I will assume about 2 million went there for refuge putting the total to 15 million. If I had to guess, I would say at least half were killed all from the crucible
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Post by Pounce de León on Jul 14, 2023 6:08:20 GMT
Not on a space station though. Unless it's a hidden asteroid base or so. The game doesn't explain exactly how the Reapers moved the Citadel to Earth (cue "space magic" jokes), but I assume it happened quickly enough that most people weren't able to evacuate. If C-Sec is still able to communicate, I'd think they would have issued whatever the Citadel's equivalent is of a "shelter in place" order. I certainly don't think that places like the Presidium Commons shops or the Purgatory club would be operating normally. I think the real problem would rather be having the transport capacity to evacuate population at the scale of planetary numbers. Has to be passenger grade with life support, not bulk freighter. If course you can space magic it, then again we wouldn't have had the best end boss: Marauder Shields.
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Post by SwobyJ on Jul 14, 2023 14:39:27 GMT
Clearly, many, many died. ME3 writers are just really saying that everything was so fast, and there's so many ways to be safe in (even temporarily) protected environments, that a post-ME3 recovery effort that focuses on rescuing Citadel survivors, would probably find a lot of them. Apparently up to millions. The Citadel is severely busted up, and the arms are breaking off/broken off, but it isn't shown as completely or even almost completely destroyed - even in the visuals of the original ending of Destroy, or low EMS EC Destroy.
Citadel aside, the galaxy was going to do a major recovery effort onto the Sol System anyway, whether the relays are quickly reestablished through the highest Space Magic, or it takes months or years to reach Earth and the allied fleet has to instead come together to ramshackle something of a very painful recovery in a meanwhile. Part of that initial recovery would mean reaching the Citadel's arms, within hours to days, and collecting as many survivors off the station as possible. Presumably, the station/arms don't crash onto Earth, so an effort is eventually made to rebuild the thing in the coming years to decades. And apparently, this station stays in the proximity to Earth, as shown in EC slides. Due to the collective effort of survivors of the war, both Earth and the Citadel may be seen as a joined capital of the new galaxy, as humanity ascends to at least the near top of governance, while also much more rapidly accepting alien (and potentially AI, up to including 'Reapers') presence and integration into its society.
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Post by Pounce de León on Jul 18, 2023 15:59:09 GMT
The reapers attack the capital worlds first and ME3 leaves no doubts it's more or less short work. Pops are erased in the billions and there is no sugarcoating. ME prepared for the big galactic holocaust and it's what we got. Beating the reapers and inserting Shepard into the various colour buckets opens the possibility of pops surviving on more remote worlds. After the trilogy I always said that I wouldnt like anither gane that tries to sirpass these stakes, but then we got genetically genocidal Kett. I feel they are trapped in the illusions game have to have world threatening fate loom over the story. I'm sick of genocide - had enough of it.
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