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Post by dayze on Sept 13, 2023 1:56:31 GMT
Its interesting that doing the blood rituals still worked for communication they just needed to do even greater blood sacrifices.
Some manipulation of the gods or was the veil becoming thicker for some unconfirmed reason during that age?
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 13, 2023 9:08:55 GMT
Some manipulation of the gods or was the veil becoming thicker for some unconfirmed reason during that age? An interesting suggestion. We know the Veil becomes weaker in areas of major conflict, although it has never been explained exactly why this should be. Perhaps it is more that the war attracts spirits and the force of them trying to push through causes it to rupture either leaving it permanently weakened in that area or even permanently torn. This also happens in the case of powerful magic being performed, which is essentially what happened with the orb. Why is that? It is a pity we couldn't ask Solas. I was checking back in WoT about the Veil and apparently it is also meant to be thinner at night, when most people are asleep and dreaming, whilst the spirits are most active. Solas mentioned how he dislikes tea because it keeps him awake and so disturbs his connection to the Fade. He also mentioned something about not using blood magic because it does the same. This was curious because we had always been led to believe that blood magic weakened the Veil, even though it does not derive its power from the Fade. Where it does derive its power is less clear and again Solas didn't enlighten us, just saying it is another form of magic. However, I am beginning to wonder of the weakening of the Veil by blood magic is only a side effect of the emotions being unleashed by the victim(s) of the blood sacrifice. It is the emotion that attracts the spirits/demons which put pressure on the Veil. Still, going with Solas' comment about blood magic blocking his connection to the Fade. Whilst it might have appeared to the ancient Tevene that their blood magic was giving greater connection with the Fade, perhaps they were connecting with the voices in the Black City, which whilst in the Fade was not actually part of it and they were actually having to establish a strong enough connection to overcome the resistance from the Fade. Whilst it might also appeared that blood magic weakened the Veil, this was merely the spirits attracted to the area. So, prolonged blood magic use in ancient Tevinter gradually built up a resistance to communication through the Fade into the Black City. It would explain why Corypheus was cutting himself ever deeper in order to communicate with his voices, because that would cause him greater pain, thus attracting more spirits that could temporarily weaken the Veil and by-pass the Fade. Does that make sense? I've also been thinking again about what is said in the Canticle of Silence. Now an earlier Divine ended up condemning this as merely propaganda from Hessarian against Old God worship, although I suspect her condemnation was probably due to political motives as relations cooled between Tevinter and the south. However, given that the high priest of Dumat who entered the Black City was called Corypheus and that according to his servant it was his choice to take that name, not an established title among the priesthood, may be Hessarian did know something, either enlightened by the Maker/spirit of the Fade or ancient records that he had unearthed. Notice that in his memories, Corypheus is angered there is no record kept even of their names, as though he thought there should have been. So, he is apparently referring not to the titles that they took, which are recorded in the Canticle, but their own family names. As it happens, we are able to discover his name through a book kept in the Magisterium's Library in Minrathous entitled the Liberalum. So, if it was possible to discover Corypheus' name through this book, presumably the other high priests are recorded there too and that Hessarian may have got the information he used in the Canticle either from this book or may be another in which Corypheus actually recorded what they were about to do. Alternatively, the Archon at that time recorded what the priest told him who had been present to witness the events leading up to the ritual and left to warn the Archon as it was about to start. In the Canticle of Silence it alleges that after being instructed by Dumat how to enter the Black City, Corypheus realised that his priesthood wouldn't be sufficient to accomplish the task, so he went in turn to each of the high priests of the other gods to enlist their help and they in turn consulted with their own god before agreeing. This means that it could not have been a plot devised by Dumat alone against the other gods or without their knowledge but something that was approved by all. Since they all fell silent after the Black City was breached, it does appear as though that may have been their aim all along in whispering to the human mages down the years until they had sufficient magical knowledge and power to attempt it. If Old God worship had been on the wane even before the 1st Blight, it might also explain taking action when they did, because the window of opportunity might pass beyond reach. I also think that the darkspawn breaking through was contingent on the Black City being breached first. The entry in the Descent concerning the location of an Arch-demon prison suggested that it looked as though the darkspawn had been surrounding it as though in worship. Possibly the whole area was sealed but at the very least they were attracted to its location and wouldn't leave until the Arch-demon did. Whatever force field likely prevented their approach to dig it out was likely removed by the Magisters breaking into the Black City. This would fit with what the dwarves maintain about the darkspawn appearing in the Deep Roads very quickly after the date of the ritual in enormous numbers, hardly enough time for brood mothers to have given birth to so many in the intervening time. It might also mean that the last part of the Canticle of Silence was also close to the truth and that when the Magisters were ejected from the Black City back to Thedas, the Archon was waiting for them, attacked and they scattered across the land to far flung locations where he could not reach them. They may also have been struck with amnesia for a time or even permanently by the trauma of their experience, hence the Architect not being able to remember his origins. There seems no record of them being seen during the 1st Blight either so may be the Arch-demon had something to do with this as the Grey Wardens only became aware of Corypheus after Dumat's death.
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catcher
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Post by catcher on Sept 15, 2023 15:30:14 GMT
Starting at the end because I'm perverse. There are still so many questions left unanswered. Realize that they will probably not resolve more than, say, 10% of this in DAD. Its been too long. Too many people invested in the lore there are now gone. Not many Players care about these elements of Lore quite like we do (I mean look at this board which represents the truly fanatical about this game). I wouldn't mind if they DID do so, but I'm not going to hold my breath on anything. OK. Maybe the Bulbous One needs a real explanation. Something I forgot to mention was the idol depicting Razikale that can be fund in a cave in the Western Approach. This seems to show a female figure holding a large horned head in the air. It may be that only the horned head is meant to represent Razikale and the figure holding it up is her high priestess, who possibly dons the mask to stand in place of their goddess during worship. Why would Razikale be worshiped as a horned humanoid if the Old Gods were thought to be dragons? I went to check that out in-game. That's a piece of art I thought was all over the place in Inquisition, but when I went looking, it seems its a lot less common than I thought unless I was just looking in the wrong places. Its a piece that appears often with another of a male warrior though not one that looks like our obvious Tevinter. You can find them on the walls of the 'storehouse' in Suledin Keep where the second Lyrium Giant emerges. The other location is in Razikale's Reach in the Frostback Basin. There seems to be no link between the sites: an ancient elven fortress and a Tevinter retreat on the frontier. No other elven ruin or Tevinter site seems to have them. They aren't anywhere I could find in the Crow Fens/Dead Hand, Var Bellinaris, Temple of Dirthamen, Coracovus, Still Ruins, none of the Astrarium caves. Just nowhere. If I could draw a definite link between the two places or could find them in a third location, then I might be tempted to draw some VERY tenuous conclusions. With what is out there right now? Not going there yet. I have questioned in the past how exactly people knew that the Arch-demon was Dumat? Who identified him? In the Fade there is the memory of that worshiper who saw the Arch-demon arise: I made the expected offerings this morning, but the gods remained silent. The priests are frightened. All of Tevinter is frightened. Our gods have led our people for centuries. Now, they have gone still. Are we alone here in this world, no better than the savages to the south who beg for guidance from spirits? And what of the strange creatures who come from underground, like our friends the dwarves? These spawn of the darkness and the plague they carry... Why do our gods not protect us from this?
Now the ground shakes. The statue cuts my hand as I fall against it. A great roar sounds. It is massive, shaking the temple market, and I see the silhouette cut the sky. It is a dragon. No, it is Dumat! I have made the offerings so many times—his form is as familiar as my own hand. He has returned in glory to destroy these darkspawn that threaten us, to lead Tevinter back to an age of glory and wonder!
But no, his scales are sickly and mottled, his form twisted and corrupt, like the darkspawn themselves. He opens his great maw, and fire billows forth, igniting the market.
The flames rush toward me.
What did we do wrong?
—Memories somehow caught in the blood on an ancient Tevinter statue While I can't answer when the Old Gods became associated with dragons directly, this one is pretty easy. It's a magic spell called 'Wishful Thinking'. Under duress, humans are pretty good at reaching out for any sign of salvation no matter how many times that light on the horizon turns out to be another battalion of orcs instead of the wizard at the head of a relief cavalry brigade. The believer is troubled by his/her god's silence and the disturbing reports coming across the Imperium so the appearance of a dragon is obviously the dragon god...until it isn't but that's why this is a memory in the Nightmare's Realm. I do theorize that the Tevene gods became identified with dragons due to early contact with the elves by those early Tevinters. That could be a range of anywhere from about -400 TE to ~200 TE but the earlier frame is more likely as relations had broken down to war by 214 TE. Remember too, those stautes on the road pillars are only very tentatively dated by Genitivi to the 'golden age of the Tevinter Imperium' but that would have to be somewhere in the + TE wouldn't it? Another oddity is the fact that at first he thinks Dumat has come to lead Tevinter back to "an age of glory and wonder". Surely though Tevinter was meant to be at the height of its glory when the 1st Blight occurred? However, it does tie in with the memory of Corypheus' slave, which suggests that his master was already having difficulty communicating with Dumat before they went to the Fade since he was cutting himself ever deeper and more frequently, suggesting a blood magic ritual being used to contact his god. The servant speaks of a weakening of the Temples disturbing his master's equilibrium and that he had been vexed by a loss of followers, not just of Dumat but the Old Gods generally. However, the servant does say that Corypheus only seems to listen to the voices in his dreams. When we free Corypheus in Legacy, he complains to Dumat that the city wasn't golden as he expected and possibly promised by the voice in his dreams. By the time we find his memories in the Temple of Dumat in DAI he seems to have decided that finding the darkness wasn't such a bad thing after all and he allowed it to permeate his being but that is only to be expected now he has decided to be a god himself. The disorientated individual we hear in Legacy seems closer to the truth and, of course, it is the same attitude he returns to when facing death and he appeals to his god for help. It seems even ancient Tevinter magisters and future darkspawn threats to reality can cast and be captured by the Wishful Thinking spell. As I think you are hinting here, I think what the Magisters Sidereal heard that drove them to the Golden/Black City was not the Old Gods, but a refined version of the 'song' in the Red Lyrium. In Inquisition, we noticed that Red Lyrium seemed to follow Corypheus around and its obviously built into his character model. Somehow, he draws the attention and service of ancient demons who are linked to Red Lyrium (Nighmare, Imshael). I believe Solas' stated plan in Trespasser is motivated in part by the threat he sees of Red Lyrium which explains some of his seeming recklessness. Why did all the gods fall silent once the Black City was opened? That does suggest that they must all have been in on the plan and having achieved their aim they had no more use for their worshipers. Or did breaking the prison cause some sort of curse to rebound on them that was put in place in the event of such by their captor? Was the aim to arise and conquer the world with their darkspawn army or was it actually intended to place them in a confrontation that would lead to the death of their fleshy prison? Does being killed by a Grey Warden really lead to the destruction of the soul or its freedom? Flemeth speaks of Urthemiel's soul having been "snatched from the jaws of darkness" but that could mean anything from death to the Void. The Old God soul embodied in Kieran certainly didn't sound evil. Was that just the effect of speaking through the mind of a child or were the regrets expressed about past events genuine? Why was Flemeth/Mythal so determined to "save" it? Just to acquire the power or something else? See above for some of my perspective. I believe all of the Kieran/Mythal stuff was done to tieoff a loose end that was no longer in the story they wanted to tell. I am not reading much into it, but that's a personal perspective. Not ready for it now, but talk about the horned nelmet figure will come back to a discussion on the Mosaics of Inquisition. Later.
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