grallon
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Post by grallon on Jul 22, 2024 14:08:46 GMT
I have no issues with how woke Dragon Age was before. They just did inclusivity and it was fine. Because these characters weren't only about their sexuality. Krem was borderline in how they did it and the trans person in Andromeda was straight up cringe with how they felt like thst was the first thing they needed to tell you about. Also the asari pronouns thing was godawful. Dorian felt a lot like a school special on homosexuality to me too but it wasn't written for me and I did read how this helped some gay players face their family so that's great for them. So I'm worried about a general trend in media AND at BioWare putting too much focus on explaining why everyone is special because of their sexuality or ethnicity. I couldn't care less. That doesn't make anybody special to me. It's what you do with your life that's interesting to me. But in the past DA was fine, the trilogy was fine. So I hope they manage to strike a balance in their storytelling. It seems to me that many of those who will be playing this game will go in like a horny guy desperate to get laid, without being too fussy about it. Put a bag on its head and do it. Glossing over anything that, upon closer inspection, would normally disqualify the candidate. An itch that needs to be scratched. Or, more succinctly, a 'pity fuck' ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/elVHKRxPverbDpfdrrFs.png) After waiting 10 long years to see the end of the story, I can understand the powerful urge to dive right back in. That being said, be prepared to live with disappointment. Still, if Larian managed to make a great game despite it being filled to the brim with woke sewage, I suppose it's possible.
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jennica
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Post by jennica on Jul 22, 2024 14:22:01 GMT
The devs being laid off has far less to do with the current quality of Bioware's games and far more to do with the current state of the industry. Even companies making well-received games are having to lay people off, or having their funding cut off by their publishers due to failing to recoup costs. Not that that makes it okay, and failing to pay severance is especially shitty on Bioware’s end. I really don't understand the comparison to Activision, given these companions have been in development for years and at no point, ever, need to justify not being white or straight or not a man. The Blizzard comparison would be like if Bellara or Davrin had been added as a day one DLC character, with all the interactivity of Sebastian within the main game. I also really haven't seen Bioware use diversity to try and bludgeon criticism, they've mentioned it in PR statements and that's it. But I've certainly seen bigoted, populist rhetoric coming from so-called 'fans' of the games, often couched in comedic dog whistles much like the video posted here. There's no 'fans'. It's just fans. Whatever the reason for them being fans its up to each one of them individually. Or do you think there are right and wrong types of fans? You can be a fan and still be critic of the things you dont personally like. And that is a right everyone has. Doesnt make them any less fans than those that agree with all of it. Some like the setting, others the combat, others the companions, others like a combination or all of it. Neither is more than the other. I am a fan. But there are things im not happy about in the way Veilguard has been presented so far. I will wait till i've played the game so i can judge if i like it or not. Until then, its all up in the air and I remain, indeed, a fan. And videos like the one i posted are meant to be in good fun, to have a laugh. It's not a declaration of war. I dont take myself that seriously. And what exactly did this video criticize about DAVe?
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danaxe
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Post by danaxe on Jul 22, 2024 15:36:15 GMT
There's no 'fans'. It's just fans. Whatever the reason for them being fans its up to each one of them individually. Or do you think there are right and wrong types of fans? You can be a fan and still be critic of the things you dont personally like. And that is a right everyone has. Doesnt make them any less fans than those that agree with all of it. Some like the setting, others the combat, others the companions, others like a combination or all of it. Neither is more than the other. I am a fan. But there are things im not happy about in the way Veilguard has been presented so far. I will wait till i've played the game so i can judge if i like it or not. Until then, its all up in the air and I remain, indeed, a fan. And videos like the one i posted are meant to be in good fun, to have a laugh. It's not a declaration of war. I dont take myself that seriously. And what exactly did this video criticize about DAVe? Ye you see, that's exactly the point isnt it? I see it as satire, you see it as critic. I laughed, you probably didnt. World didnt end, we just move on.
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Post by jennica on Jul 22, 2024 16:02:46 GMT
And what exactly did this video criticize about DAVe? Ye you see, that's exactly the point isnt it? I see it as satire, you see it as critic. I laughed, you probably didnt. World didnt end, we just move on. You're right that i didn't laugh. The video is dumb and unoriginal, nothing funny about it. Well, maybe aside from dragon screaming. However, i didn't ask because i saw this video as criticism. I asked because you said that it's possible to be a fan of something and still be critical about it, hence my question. Also, satire is a form of criticism, so i'm now confused what you meant by "I see it as satire, you see it as critic".
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danaxe
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Post by danaxe on Jul 22, 2024 16:35:02 GMT
Ye you see, that's exactly the point isnt it? I see it as satire, you see it as critic. I laughed, you probably didnt. World didnt end, we just move on. You're right that i didn't laugh. The video is dumb and unoriginal, nothing funny about it. Well, maybe aside from dragon screaming. However, i didn't ask because i saw this video as criticism. I asked because you said that it's possible to be a fan of something and still be critical about it, hence my question. Also, satire is a form of criticism, so i'm now confused what you meant by "I see it as satire, you see it as critic". In my opinion, the video is original and hilarious. See how i did that without a passive agressive insult in it? Anyway, I am a dragon age fan since origins. I love the lore and the worldbuilding most of all. And I am critical of many choices made, from combat to the tone of the teaser, but thats just a couple things out of many. And yet, because I like the setting so much, I still remain a fan and will play Veilguard. I hope that satisfies your curiosity, stranger from the internet that I've never met before. Do you require more details about my thought processes? Have a good day ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/KGsHESiZGZU0pPuHuhQr.png)
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Post by jennica on Jul 22, 2024 16:42:59 GMT
You're right that i didn't laugh. The video is dumb and unoriginal, nothing funny about it. Well, maybe aside from dragon screaming. However, i didn't ask because i saw this video as criticism. I asked because you said that it's possible to be a fan of something and still be critical about it, hence my question. Also, satire is a form of criticism, so i'm now confused what you meant by "I see it as satire, you see it as critic". In my opinion, the video is original and hilarious. See how i did that without a passive agressive insult in it? I wasn't passive aggressive and didn't insult anyone. Just gave my opinion about this video, like everyone else in this thread.
Jfc, i never said that that if you don't like anything about DAVe, then it means you're not a fan. And illuminated11 didn't say it either. I literally just asked a question.
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fistoffiori
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Post by fistoffiori on Jul 22, 2024 16:48:39 GMT
Shallow corporate tokenism is indeed a thing, but I don't think we have to look that hard for reasons for the Dragon Age games have always been 'woke'. There's a weird assumption that video game companies only put female protagonists, people of colour or disabled or LGBT+ characters and other groups that have historically been discriminated against in their games because someone forced them to. Like creative people in any medium, video game developers want to see themselves and their audience reflected in their work, and as both the dev pool and the audience have gotten broader so have the contents of the games. Dorian's not gay because some executive somewhere decided DAI needed a gay character. He's gay because David Gaider wanted him that way. BioWare were smart enough to get out of his way (they didn't when he wanted Zevran to be gay a few years earlier) but the impetus to do that story came from the lead writer. Krem is trans because Patrick Weekes needed some kind of angle on the character to make him more interesting and that's the one they went with. The Dragon Age writer's pit has always been half women, their first lead writer was a gay man and the current one is a pansexual enby. The game design director is a trans woman. Why would they not want to see people like themselves in games? Why would they not also be inclinded to think that Black and Asian people or amputees and whatever other groups are represented by Veilguard will get a kick out of seeing people like them in the game? I've already seen one Black cosplayer working on a Davrin outfit. I'm in my mid-forties, I've been playing games since I was six. I'm old enough to remember when every game I played seemed to assume I was a man (or a boy) and a straight white one at that. Things are so much better now. And it's not like any RPG with character creation is stopping anyone from playing a heterosexual white man if that's what they want to do! In a few months I am going to boot up Veilguard, make the fattest purple-haired Qunari Rook I can and go romance Harding ![<3](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/0jAkctcPQmieGjKOsvBR.png) . So mark me down as cheerfully 'woke', I guess, or whatever the next buzzword is. Yep. And of course Corporate Tokenism is a thing, as is, let's use Pride as an example, claim they care they do during one month then f it all off any other time. And Bioware are no stranger, admittedly it's completely different people from the ME Trilogy and Dragon Age games, but Andromeda had a trans person who was just put there to add a trans person. They deadnamed themselves immediately unprompted. A terribly written trans person when they could have done something far better with the character. Krem was done better, and if Mae turns up in Veilguard, hopefully she is too. For reference, I'm a straight white 40 year old man. So my opinion may be way off judgement wise, but honestly I feel at least they've done a decent amount of stuff right, ifnot perfect. Namely that no matter how diverse the cast is, they strive to write the characters well either way. Only Dorian in Inquisition's sexuality was specifically brought up in-game when it comes to romances throughout Bioware games and that scene was for all Inquisitors regardless of gender/race and not tied to a romance. Back on topic, I don't think Bioware's intention was to be all "look at our diversity!", I think it was just a silly zany trailer. I thought it was just... Okay. I really liked the gameplay demo though.
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illuminated11
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Post by illuminated11 on Jul 22, 2024 21:02:55 GMT
I just don't find comedy predicated on punching down particularly funny. And while the youtuber might not intend it (doubt), it attracts a very specific subset of gamer culture always one step away from going full mask off.
As for criticism, I have no problem with criticism made in good faith. Most people have concerns about the game, given it has been in development hell for ten years. It's normal to have concerns. Hyperfocusing on what the characters look like and implying the game is now for four years olds is not criticism, it's hyperbolic ranting hidden behind comedic beats.
Andraste_Reborn pretty much said everything else I wanted to say already, so I'll leave it at that.
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Post by necrowaif on Jul 23, 2024 23:39:39 GMT
I just don't find comedy predicated on punching down particularly funny. The issue I have with the phrase “comedy shouldn’t punch down” is that few people can actually agree on which direction is down. Let’s take for example the “Put a chick in it and make her lame and gay” joke from South Park. That’s a good joke about how recent Star Wars and Disney products have been declining in quality in recent years and it only really “punches” Kathleen Kennedy, a rich executive who has more money than you or I will ever see. And yet, some people would argue that nobody should attack Kennedy because she’s a woman in a male-dominated field. The Saint’s Row remake went the direction of trying to avoid any humour that would “punch down” and the end result was a sanitized and spectacularly unfunny failure that contributed to Volition Games' untimely death. While you should try to avoid being malicious, ultimately comedy has to “punch” someone, whether that's a person, a group or the joke-teller.
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Post by necrowaif on Jul 23, 2024 23:49:18 GMT
Incidentally, I went back to the trailer and I saw Unscripted posted a comment clarifying their position. And I was right: they were going for a "two corporate suits talking about how to use diversity to market the game" kind of vibe. They also wanted to make it clear they don't agree with the anti-woke crowd. Also, a rewatch revealed a lot of details I think people missed, like the griffon barking like a little dog and the tentacle monster grabbing Bellara shouting "GET OVER HERE!"
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illuminated11
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Post by illuminated11 on Jul 24, 2024 0:12:33 GMT
I just don't find comedy predicated on punching down particularly funny. The issue I have with the phrase “comedy shouldn’t punch down” is that few people can actually agree on which direction is down. Let’s take for example the “Put a chick in it and make her lame and gay” joke from South Park. That’s a good joke about how recent Star Wars and Disney products have been declining in quality in recent years and it only really “punches” Kathleen Kennedy, a rich executive who has more money than you or I will ever see. And yet, some people would argue that nobody should attack Kennedy because she’s a woman in a male-dominated field. The Saint’s Row remake went the direction of trying to avoid any humour that would “punch down” and the end result was a toothless and spectacularly unfunny failure that killed the studio. While you should try to avoid being malicious, ultimately comedy has to “punch” someone, whether that’s a person, a group or the joke-teller. I don't find South Park all that funny, so I'm not sure I agree there. It's shallow and vacuous, parroting pop culture moments while never moving beyond them. But I do like a lot of British comedy, which is often cynical and misanthropic, so I understand where you're coming from. The best comedy, as with most forms of art, is transgressive on some level. It uses humor to say something that crosses bounds of societal norms.
George Carlin was vulgar in much of his comedy, but his standup also had a beating heart in how passionately anti-war he was, and how much he criticized things like the Vietnam War. There was always a deeply humanist core to his standup. I think about Carlin compared to, say, Ricky Gervais, who so clearly wants to model himself after Carlin and yet lacks that same sense of strongly held beliefs, because he's more interested in dunking on others than actually caring about anything. Or another example, Ayoade on Top, an absurd book parodying an obscure, terrible Gwenyth Paltrow vehicle, that also deftly weaves critique of capitalism into the central premise. For me, even though it's about a woman, I don't consider it to be punching down, because it really isn't about Paltrow BEING a woman. It's just a comedic bit with a woman in it.
And of course, there are gray areas. I've always been a big fan of Dave Chappelle, but even before his anti-trans leanings became abundantly clear, it was obvious he always had issues with the LGBTQ community. (He's called them the alphabet soup group multiple times in his skits.) Does that take away from all the clever, humorous critique he's made about racial tensions in America? No, I don't think so, even if it makes me sad he can see certain issues so clearly and be so blind to others.
Edit: If the dude has to make a clarifying comment about his video, chances are it's not a well executed premise in the first place.
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jennica
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Post by jennica on Jul 24, 2024 0:18:23 GMT
What isn't ok is Corporations weaponizing inclusion just to sell titles - because that provokes a culture war that delays the realization of actual equity in the real world. Did this person already play DAVe? Are they a time traveler? Like, at this point i don't know who is more annoying. People who cry about diverse characters. Or people who see diverse characters and immediately assume that they exist purely because of corporate tokenism.
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