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Post by Quickpaw on Sept 15, 2024 1:53:49 GMT
I don't know if his topic would be better suited here than in the Origins section, BUT I was just playing through the Temple of Sacred Ashes section of DAO today, and I noticed that the Andraste statue above the Urn had the same kind of crescent headpiece/crown that the images of the Evanuris we've seen from the Temple of Mythal, Trespasser, and Solas's Ritual Site from Veilguard. I'm sure there are better sources on the connections between Andraste and, say Mythal than the Evanuris in general, but it was a moment of "Holy Hell! I never noticed that before!" It could, of course, simply be a coincidence given that the Origins was meant to be standalone at first and the creative teams have changed so much since then. BUT something tells me the connection is deliberate. Discuss?
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Post by azarhal on Sept 15, 2024 2:49:26 GMT
Origin wasn't meant to be standalone. They had a 5 games plan by the time Awakening released and there are things revealed in DAI that have been in their internal wiki since like 2006. And while some art style has changed, architecture has been very consistant between cultures and the artists go back to the older games to keep things on track look-wise. Saying all that, someone missed the elven mosaic that shows up in the final battle against Corypheus in DAI. But even in DAO, it was evident it was a repurposed elven temple. The place has statues you find in other elven ruins in DAO and similar architecture to the Brecillian forest ruins. One guy with an urn and a few helpers wouldn't have been able to build a temple that size anyway. It is also build over a huge amount of lyrium (you know learn that in DAO if you bring Oghren along). Does that means there is a link between Andraste and the elves, nope. It just means the Tevinter Imperium era humans culturally appropriated elven stuff and/or repurposed it.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 15, 2024 8:17:37 GMT
Does that means there is a link between Andraste and the elves, nope. It just means the Tevinter Imperium era humans culturally appropriated elven stuff and/or repurposed it. Well, I wouldn't be quite so sure about that. It depends on how much store you place in what is contained in the two World of Thedas books, particularly WoT2 that came out after Inquisition was released (but before Trespasser). Here are some of the connections: In addition to what we found in game in the Temple of Mythal there was an old elven poem from which a Denerim lullaby is said to derive via an Alamaari War Poem. Andraste was an Alamaari so it is possible the war poem was introduced during her campaign. The elven version from the Temple of Mythal is lamenting what they have lost as a result of the Wolf's fight for freedom. The word Glandival appears there in connection with that struggle and it seems likely it means "believe", in this case the line is "when we could not longer believe" (in the gods?) Andraste gives Shartan her sword that was originally given to her by her mother. It is not absolutely clear if it already had a name or Shartan renamed it but the sword was called Glandivalis. That is an elven name and based off the poem means "Faithful" or "Believer". The Chantry would say it was an indicator he was her disciple so he believed in her or the Maker. However, the elven version in the Canticle of Shartan states she gave it to him after he saved her from defeat at the Battle of Valarian Fields with the words " Take this, my Champion, and free our people forever." Notice there is nothing about him being a faithful disciple or believer in the Maker but a believer in freedom, who joined his forces to hers in that cause. So, it is entirely possible that the translation of the name Glandivalis means "Blade of the Faith" (in Freedom). This was a title that Drakon later appropriated to himself after allegedly receiving a vision from Andraste that he should be the one to spread his version of faith in the Maker, or as Ameridan put it "simplify" it from the multiple cults to Andraste and the Maker that existed in the south prior to his reign. In the subsequent Canticle of Apotheosis detailing Andraste's betrayal and death, Shartan is not named directly but only as "the Liberator", likely to conceal his identity after the Canticle of Shartan was removed following the fall of the Dales, although may be he was now called that generally in view of the previous words of Andraste. He was trying to rescue Andraste from the pyre together with a hundred of his followers. Note that when the human followers failed to help her, the elves did. No wonder the Chantry wanted to keep that quiet after Orlais had stolen the Dales from the elves, which Maferath gave to the people of Shartan despite him no longer being around to claim this in order to honour the wishes of Andraste. It would seem even Maferath didn't dare go against the will of the Maker in that. Still the title of the Liberator again points to Shartan being a believer in freedom rather than simply faith in the Maker and this in turn does make him a mirror of Solas. The preface to the Canticle of Shartan also says that there is an old elven folktale about a trickster warrior who fought against tyrants that human scholars believe may have become mixed in with the story of Shartan. I have no idea why the writers wanted to make this connection between Shartan and Solas but it did result in numerous fan theories about how Shartan could have been Solas (hardly likely since Shartan was killed trying to rescue Andraste from the pyre and then his body burned as well). However, it is possible Shartan knew the story and used it to inspire his followers. This would suggest there was more than one tradition concerning Fen'Harel among the slaves of Tevinter that later occupied the Dales but either his name was dropped from the story at the insistence of the Keepers that it related to someone else, or by Shartan's time the link to Solas and his rebellion had already been lost. Still, it does seem odd the writers would want to hint at a connection between Shartan and Solas in a rebellion to free their people from slavery. Which immediately makes you wonder if the later exchanges between Shartan and Andraste came from the original folktale as well, particularly the injunction to Shartan by Andraste to be a perpetual champion of freedom for their people. There is also an interesting aspect from the Canticle of Apotheosis that suggests that Andraste was captured by Tevinter after Maferath suggested she go into the hills to consult the Maker as to his will at a "pool of silver where they say the Voice of Heaven can be heard most clearly." This was meant to be somewhere near Minrathous because in this version the Battle of Valarian Fields occurred just outside the gates of the city. However, in the version we learn in DAI, it would seem to site of this battle was much further south and her army never got that far into Tevinter proper, certainly not as far as Minrathous. After the battle she stopped for a time at the fortress of an ally in what is now Nevarra and it would seem that having such a close shave in that fight, Maferath thought it would be extremely unwise to venture further north into the heart of their enemies power. However, Andraste was determined to continue with her crusade and so Maferath did a deal with Hessarian to deliver her into his hand in return for being allowed to keep what they had taken from Tevinter in the south. Since the Imperium had already been struggling to hold many of these outposts and he was having to deal with multiple slave uprisings across the Imperium inspired by Shartan's efforts, Hessarian did the deal. She was handed over to the Archon's forces in Nevarra, which explains why there was no army of barbarians outside Minrathous that could have saved her but only a small force of elves led by Shartan, probably his followers actually in Minrathous, who attempted her rescue. However, if this latter version of the story is the true one, where does the "pool of silver" (clearly a lyrium pool) fit into this? Could this be another transposition of an earlier folk memory of Mythal and her betrayal? Was it perhaps the teaching of a southern Augur who had asked spirits of the Fade for a vision of the betrayal and got the one of Mythal rather than Andraste? In both cases, it seems likely it was the husband who betrayed her. There have been strong hints that the betrayal of Mythal by the other gods was in connection with either lyrium or red lyrium and she does appear to have been in control of the lyrium mining operation. Further thought, why did Andraste promise Shartan the Dales for his people, an area that seems heavily associated with Mythal and Fen'Harel (judging from the number of giant wolf statues around the place) but certainly with the elves in general. Was Andraste aware of this? If the sword she gave to Shartan came from her mother, was this something her family had simply looted from an elven site or was her mother or one of her ancestors an elf? If Andraste had elven blood in her veins that would certainly explain her strong connection to the Fade. It goes without saying that Andraste was a mage and the southern Chantry suppressed this information. Dorian confirmed that up in Tevinter this is what they believe. Also, if there were elves in her ancestry it would explain the elven connection in the Alamarri war poem that would be hard to explain by humans re-purposing human ruins because they couldn't speak or read elven. However, there was evidence of humans and elves cohabiting the ruins in the Brecillian Forest, not just humans moving in and occupying them after the elves had left, so this could have been the case elsewhere in ancient times, particularly as the Dalish recall some of their people having close contact with humans, that the Keepers teach had an adverse effect on the elves both in their longevity and behaviour, so that is when those faithful to the gods chose to withdraw into Uthenera. Presumably, those not faithful to the gods chose to stay among their human friends, inter married with them and thus any children of the union lost any outward indication of their elven heritage, only likely retaining it in their blood, the first human Dreamers.
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Post by azarhal on Sept 15, 2024 11:46:43 GMT
Does that means there is a link between Andraste and the elves, nope. It just means the Tevinter Imperium era humans culturally appropriated elven stuff and/or repurposed it. Well, I wouldn't be quite so sure about that. It depends on how much store you place in what is contained in the two World of Thedas books, particularly WoT2 that came out after Inquisition was released (but before Trespasser). Here are some of the connections: ... I didn't read all of it, you really need to learn to write shorter posts to make your point. The parts I read are still all just cultural appropriation and it is known in setting that parts of the Chant of Light pre-date Andraste's rebellion and that the Canticle of Shartan is a mix of ancient elven folkstales of rebellion that as nothing to do with Andraste. The whole thing was codified centuries after she died and some of the text was altered or even removed even after being put into the Chant of Light depending on how racist or anti-something the current Divine was. None of that prove any kind of link between Andraste and the Evanuris/ancient elves.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 15, 2024 12:45:18 GMT
The parts I read are still all just cultural appropriation and it is known in setting that parts of the Chant of Light pre-date Andraste's rebellion and that the Canticle of Shartan is a mix of ancient elven folkstales of rebellion that as nothing to do with Andraste. I thought the question was about a connection between Mythal and Andraste. You say no, and then agree that the tales in the Chant are likely cultural appropriation. So, whose culture were they appropriating? My lengthy post was to give examples of how earlier stories could have found their way into later Chantry teaching, not just the Canticle of Shartan, and the evidence for why there is a link between the Alamaari and the elves that could account for it. None of that prove any kind of link between Andraste and the Evanuris/ancient elves. Actually I would say it at least gives a possibility of a link considering that Andraste pre-dated the formation of the Chantry by nearly 200 years (starting with her birth and early visions) and there are definite connections there. It doesn't mean that Andraste herself was Mythal or anything like that but that there was a likelihood the stories of the former could have been influenced by a vague folk memory of the latter. Also, you connect the cultural appropriation in the south with the Tevinter Imperium period, implying they were the ones responsible for it in the south as well as the north. It is debatable just how much influence they had that far south and the barbarian history in the south developed for the most part independently of the human kingdoms in the north. They have completely different magical traditions (although they do bear similarities with Rivain suggesting perhaps a common origin). The Imperium tended to completely erase the references to earlier elven culture when they appropriated the ruins and there is no evidence there of elven legends surviving and entering their lore, although there does now seem some sort of link between the Old Gods, that they only adopted en mass in the north much later than the retreat of the elves into Uthenera. The southern barbarians may have retained more memory of their links to the elves (the Fog Dancers of Seheron certainly acknowledge it) but Drakon's purges and then centuries of Chantry influence likely all but eradicated it.
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Post by azarhal on Sept 15, 2024 13:27:39 GMT
None of that prove any kind of link between Andraste and the Evanuris/ancient elves. Actually I would say it at least gives a possibility of a link considering that Andraste pre-dated the formation of the Chantry by nearly 200 years (starting with her birth and early visions) and there are definite connections there. It doesn't mean that Andraste herself was Mythal or anything like that but that there was a likelihood the stories of the former could have been influenced by a vague folk memory of the latter. Andraste had nothing to do with whatever people wrote about her centuries after the fact nor the sources those people used and attribuated to her. The only thing important about Andraste is that she was an ex-Tevinter slaves who revolted against them while her husband was in for the land grab and that they joined up with other revolting slaves up north against Tevinter. I would even say that her monotheist should probably be questioned...
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 15, 2024 13:45:02 GMT
The only thing important about Andraste is that she was an ex-Tevinter slaves who revolted against them while her husband was in for the land grab and that they joined up with other revolting slaves up north against Tevinter. I would even say that her monotheist should probably be questioned... You haven't read WoT2 have you? There is a completely different version in there, part of which was reproduced in DAI. She was never a Tevinter slave, as in being held up north in Tevinter. She was captured by Tevinter during a military campaign in which her father was killed but she was already married (or promised in marriage) to Maferath, so technically she was a prisoner of war and potential slave had they taken her north to sell. However, she was ransomed by Maferath because their marriage had been a political one and her tribe only felt allegiance to her not him. He had needed their support to fight back against Tevinter, so he had no choice but to buy her back. There seems a strong suggestion she acted as their Augur giving spiritual advice and guidance, whilst he was the political leader who usually managed military affairs (an arrangement we see among the Avvar - an offshoot of the Alamaari - in JoH). This is why initially their crusade was a success because their aims harmonised with one another and he had the backing of his tribe, her father's tribe and her mother's tribe to call on for support. Then after the near disaster of the Valarian Fields, he decided their crusade had gone far enough. They never got as far as Tevinter proper, Maferath calling a halt in what is now the border between Nevarra and Tevinter. This was a secular history from universities that had made a study of the matter from a non-religious perspective and thus not influenced by Chantry propaganda. The same was true of the history of Drakon. Whilst they may have got some details wrong through incorrect interpretation of the facts or incomplete historical records, I think we were meant to assume that the majority was for the most part true to what actually occurred as opposed to what the Chantry would have us believe. The bit you have stated as being the only important information is actually taken from Chantry propaganda and religious dogma, not historical records.
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Post by azarhal on Sept 15, 2024 13:57:43 GMT
The only thing important about Andraste is that she was an ex-Tevinter slaves who revolted against them while her husband was in for the land grab and that they joined up with other revolting slaves up north against Tevinter. I would even say that her monotheist should probably be questioned... You haven't read WoT2 have you? There is a completely different version in there, part of which was reproduced in DAI. She was never a Tevinter slave, as in being held up north in Tevinter. She was captured by Tevinter during a military campaign in which her father was killed but she was already married (or promised in marriage) to Maferath, so technically she was a prisoner of war and potential slave had they taken her north to sell. However, she was ransomed by Maferath because their marriage had been a political one and her tribe only felt allegiance to her not him. He had needed their support to fight back against Tevinter, so he had no choice but to buy her back. There seems a strong suggestion she acted as their Augur giving spiritual advice and guidance, whilst he was the political leader who usually managed military affairs (an arrangement we see among the Avvar - an offshoot of the Alamaari - in JoH). This is why initially their crusade was a success because their aims harmonised with one another and he had the backing of his tribe, her father's tribe and her mother's tribe to call on for support. Then after the near disaster of the Valarian Fields, he decided their crusade had gone far enough. They never got as far as Tevinter proper, Maferath calling a halt in what is now the border between Nevarra and Tevinter. This was a secular history from universities that had made a study of the matter from a non-religious perspective and thus not influenced by Chantry propaganda. The same was true of the history of Drakon. Whilst they may have got some details wrong through incorrect interpretation of the facts or incomplete historical records, I think we were meant to assume that the majority was for the most part true to what actually occurred as opposed to what the Chantry would have us believe. The bit you have stated as being the only important information is actually taken from Chantry propaganda and religious dogma, not historical records. How is that a completly different version? She might have never made it to market, it doesn't mean she didn't spend month being used like a slave until being ransomed. And the rest is exactly what I wrote: her husband was in it for the land grab.
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on Sept 15, 2024 19:07:05 GMT
I wonder how Andraste will be portrayed in Tevinter - will she be a brunette compared to the Chantry Blonde and Ferelden redhead?
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Post by theascendent on Sept 15, 2024 21:24:43 GMT
I believe that the Imperial/Tevinter Chantry belief is that Andraste was a mortal mage, her 'miracles' that in the South were attributed to the Maker was just her using her powerful magic to make the war easier. Her death by immolation was probably a precaution to prevent a spirit/demon from possessing her body. If she was that powerful without being an Abomination you can understand why people would be concerned if she was possessed. Her date of birth coinciding with the final death of the Archdemon/Old God Dumat cannot be just happenstance. That Dark Ritual that Flemeth taught Morrigan must have worked successfully to entrust such knowledge to her afterall.
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Post by sageoflife on Sept 16, 2024 0:37:40 GMT
The theory that I find most probable given the timeline and the available information is that Andraste was born as the mortal vessel of Dumat after he was slain at the Silent Plains. Dumat's death throws were so violent that he killed seven Wardens when he finally died for good, so no one knows which Warden dealt the final blow or if that Warden died as a result of killing Dumat or if it was just Dumat's death throws that did it. The Dark Ritual had to come from somewhere.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 16, 2024 7:38:08 GMT
Her date of birth coinciding with the final death of the Archdemon/Old God Dumat cannot be just happenstance. The theory that I find most probable given the timeline and the available information is that Andraste was born as the mortal vessel of Dumat after he was slain at the Silent Plains. I've never been entirely convinced about this. I think she had a strong connection with a spirit, possibly even possessed by it, but not necessarily that of the Old God Dumat. (May be her spirit didn't want to make itself known until he had been dealt with). After all, we know she came from the same culture as the Avvar and they used spirits to train their young mages. Also, the Seeker ritual had to have come from somewhere and we now know that involves the person having their mind "touched" by a spirit. In the case of a mage, a failed ritual resulted in tranquility, although I am not clear how that would be because there was no evidence of any sort of brand on Cassandra so I'm not clear how they block the emotion of the individual or why their "faith" is then able to attract a spirit because surely that would be absent. But that is a different issue. I certainly agree that the reason they thought it necessary to burn her was to prevent her being resurrected either by the spirit the Vints suspected was already in her body or another spirit/demon afterwards. Andraste's single-minded determination to continue with her crusade and being unwilling to listen to reason would certainly suggest a cohabiting spirit. Just look at Anders. If a rivaled Hawke tries to talk him out of his action in Act 3, Justice gets very hostile towards them. It is hardly surprising that Maferath would have decided he had had enough if she made a similar response when he said they needed to stop whilst they were ahead. It may also be why he involved Hessarian, because he honestly didn't know how to deal with the problem himself but he thought the Vints would. Remember the Avvar also have a belief that the soul/spirit can return subsequently, being reborn in a different body. I believe that Maferath was actually an Avvar warlord, so he would definitely be aware of their beliefs on the subject of spirits, spirit possession and reincarnation. I think a lot of the negative assessments of Maferath are largely the result of Chantry propaganda. The fact was the Battle of Valarian fields wasn't the triumph the Chantry made it out to be. Andraste would have been captured/killed there but for the intervention of Shartan and his elves. As the secular historians admit, the site of the battle wasn't outside Minrathous (whatever may be recorded on maps now) but in southern Tevinter close to the border and comprised the Tevinter forces found locally there, not the full might of the Imperium that they would have had to confront if they had pressed on. Most of their other victories had been against Tevinter outposts and colonies that had already been weakened by the First Blight and their distance from the seat of power in the north. The local loyalists were already starting to retake previously conquered settlements. Maferath wasn't just some greedy warlord merely trying to gain more land. I'm sure he genuinely wanted to free the south of Vint control but he was wise enough to know when you need to accept your limitations and consolidate what you have gained in case you lose everything as a result of over reaching yourself. Andraste had become a liability as a result of her obsession with conquering all Tevinter, or rather her obsession with conquering Minrathous. I do find it interesting though, that according to the Canticle of Shartan she seemed hell bent on reaching Minrathous in particular. Then in Drakon's vision he likewise seemed to think ultimate victory would only be achieved when Minrathous was taken. The first game play trailer seemed to show that there was some definite link between Minrathous and Solas' ritual site in Arlathan Forest. So something about Minrathous is key to the power wielded not just by the Imperium but probably by the Evanuris as well. It is also interesting that whilst Dumat, Toth and Lusacan were the patron gods of Neromenian and Darinius was High Priest of Dumat, nevertheless he chose to make his seat of power in the united Imperium the city of Minrathous, whose patron was Razikale. Razikale would also seem to have strong connections with southern Thedas since her priesthood went there to try and regain contact with her after all the Old Gods fell silent. Then Andraste was determined to reach Minrathous in order to "free her people forever". I don't think she was an OGB but if she was, then clearly the Old God wanted to get to Minrathous. If she wasn't, then whatever spirit she was connected with was determined to reach there to achieve their aims (Mythal perhaps?). Then Solas seems to have spent time there prior to engaging in the final part of his ritual. Coincidence?
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Post by azarhal on Sept 16, 2024 12:01:18 GMT
Also, the Seeker ritual had to have come from somewhere and we now know that involves the person having their mind "touched" by a spirit. In the case of a mage, a failed ritual resulted in tranquility, although I am not clear how that would be because there was no evidence of any sort of brand on Cassandra so I'm not clear how they block the emotion of the individual or why their "faith" is then able to attract a spirit because surely that would be absent. But that is a different issue. The forehead brand might be "decorative" or it gets healed/removed when the reversal succeed. As for how they attract one, they clearly aren't attract it from the Fade. So either someone is sommoning one in the room or there is another secret Cassandra didn't reveal (she really didn't reveal much irc).
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∯ Oh Loredy...
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Sept 18, 2024 17:10:16 GMT
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gervaise21
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August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 16, 2024 13:04:46 GMT
The forehead brand might be "decorative" or it gets healed/removed when the reversal succeed. As for how they attract one, they clearly aren't attract it from the Fade. So either someone is sommoning one in the room or there is another secret Cassandra didn't reveal (she really didn't reveal much irc). I think this could be one of those cases where they hadn't fully thought through the mechanics and if they don't need to as we head north, they can quietly forget about it. In Asunder it did seem that Rhys theorised it would be possible to reverse tranquility by encouraging a benign spirit to touch the mind of the tranquil. Now this would make a lot of sense because Spirit Healers work with benign spirits so surely they would be the best mages to use for that purpose? However, if it was that simple, why did the Seeker ritual ever fail? Cassandra said she was made tranquil, although it sounded as though the ritual might be more a case of getting the individual to empty themselves of their emotions by focusing on the divine being of the Maker (something that mystics are said to do in the real world). The problem with it is always the fact that we are told spirits are attracted to emotions, so if you have suppressed them to the point that you cannot feel them, why would a spirit? If other people are required to attract the spirit, they are most likely mages, so why didn't they use the spirit to restore their fellow mage? Also, I have pointed out in the past that in theory there should be no reason why a faith spirit wouldn't be attracted to anyone with strong faith, regardless of the identity of their god. For a faith spirit only to be attracted to someone with faith in the Maker would suggest that the spirits know he is the only true deity, thus effectively "proving" the Maker exists. Anyway, if the spirit that Andraste was communing with wasn't the actual supreme deity, nor any of the false gods, then presumably it was some sort of spirit of faith or demon of desperation/loss of faith. Apparently, she had called upon all the usual Avvar/Alamaari gods for help against Tevinter without receiving a favourable response and then made a final appeal effectively saying: "Is anyone out there who can help me?" Lo and behold the "Maker" answered her. This is why I tend to think the spirit was Mythal speaking from the Fade but not yet willing to leave it and risk joining with a mortal vessel. Rather she thought she would use the mortal Andraste and her followers to achieve her aim of conquering Minrathous, which was important to her for some reason. After all, what did Flemeth say attracted Mythal to her? " Once I was a woman crying out in the lonely darkness for justice. And she came to me." That is exactly what the Canticle of Andraste records her saying she was doing when the Maker contacted her. She was a woman alone in the wilds, crying out for justice for her people and guess who turned up?
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