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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 4, 2016 16:00:48 GMT
Don't know if this has every been discussed before but it strikes me that the Mosaics could be one of those instances of something much older being altered by later Tevinter to make it look as if it applies to them. The dwarf mason pretty much says so. What I was wondering if the sequence actually refers to events during the time of the Evanuris connected to the the death of Mythal.
Freed are the Slaves: Appears to show a Magister watching chained qunari march by. However, it originally seemed to have 7 figures in it. There has long been a theory that the kossith (the forerunners of the qunari) were hybrid creations of humans mixed with dragon. The Keep now confirms that humans were around before the raising of the Veil (at least 1000 years if the figure of -3900 is not a typo) , so they could indeed have been bred by the Evanuris to be their slave soldiers (not freed).
Invasion: It is suggested by the dwarf that this shows the 7 Magisters assaulting the Golden City. Except the building has no stairs and appears to be floating. Could it not be more likely that it is the Golden City (Arlathan) but the 7 figures are Evanuris and there are no stairs because they are going to enter it by eluvian?
The Fall: Again the dwarf suggests it shows the Magisters being ejected from heaven. However, certain things are odd. The building appears inverted so it is upside down. This recalls was we see in the Crossroads. The first figure through the door appears to be blinded and burned and this spreads to the others. They then fall. Could this be referring to the trap that Fen'Harel created for them? Could it be symbolic of the fact that they were blinded and tricked into entering his trap?
The Archdemon: The dwarf thinks this depicts something to do with Tevinter because of the dragon and how Dumat resulted in its near demise. However, he says that there appear to be 4 lines not doing any particular harm to the dragon, possibly just encircling it, 2 actually piercing it, but that the dragon itself is looking at a solitary figure that appears to have nothing to do with what is going on but the dragon recognises as responsible. So could this be showing that whilst all the Evanuris were part of the plot, only 2 actually struck at Mythal and she was aware that the real instigator and betrayer was the one pretending not to be involved, Elgar'nan may be? In Solas' unfinished picture in Skyhold it seems to show Fen'Harel discovering the body of Mythal after the attack and it is in dragon form with something piecing it in the back.
The Sacrifice: Shows a number of skulls and two with horns. Could this have something to do with Mythal's death as well?
A further thought with regard to the above. People say the statue in Flemeth's Fade area that is stabbed in the back depicts Dirthamen. There seems no real connection except that it possibly has a hood but that could just show that the figure is unknown or concealed. The blood from the statue drips straight down to where Flemeth and Kieran stand. Is this somehow showing that there is a connection between OGB Urthemiel and one of the Evanuris? Urthemiel was the architect of beauty, which seems strongly to suggest June, the god of craft. In the Crossroads, Sylaise is said to be offering a gift to June in response to a favour he did for her. Did she ask him to craft the weapon that would be used against Mythal, so he became an unwitting part of the conspiracy, or did he know? In the Temple of Mythal there is a codex for Andruil that says she took the radiance of the stars and stored them in a shaft of god. The stars are said in Dalish myth to be the drops of blood shed by the Sun in his battle with Elgar'nan. If this blood was in fact drops of lyrium, could it be that Andruil collected enough lyrium over time to make into the spear that killed Mythal? In the Tevinter legend about Darinius it is said that when he battled in the Provings with Endrin Stonehammer, the dwarf king had a hammer of pure lyrium that "shattered spells like spun glass". Could Anduril's spear have been an earlier weapon with the same sort of properties that could counteract the spells of Mythal?
I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the Golden City had 7 gates (but can't find the reference). Mythal was the Creator of cities, so that would leave one gate for each of the other gods (or if leaving out Gilhan'nain as a latecomer, then one of the gates would be Mythal's). Still that would mean the empty throne was the throne of Mythal.
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Post by rapscallioness on Aug 4, 2016 22:15:47 GMT
Thank you for doing this. I have never gathered all the mosaics much to my chagrin. I, too, believe that these stories are actually from a much older memory.
There's alot here so forgive my free association train of thought here. lol!
One thing I wanted to ask about was the instance with one of the mosaics--can't remember which one, but Gatsi,iirc, mentioned that the image seemed to be touched up (The Sacrifice?)in order to hide some person's ancestral involvement in what the image was depicting. Gatsi thought it was odd because Tevinters would love being associated with bringing down some Qunari. So, he felt the implication was that there was some dirty secret that this person was trying "airbrush" over while still keeping some parts of the story.
Freed are Slaves: One of the things about this is needing to know from what perspective this "story" was being told. The image of the chained Qunari marching under the gaze of a magister does not mesh for me with the theme of Freed. Unless, the Freed ones were possibly ones that defeated these people/beings. Like this chained line represented something akin to POW's. As if these "magisters" felt that they were the ones that had somehow been subjugated by these...proto-Qunari?
To me, that scenario calls up some interesting questions about a war between the Evanuris and whomever else--which is still not really clear. But if so, and we know from statements in DAI that something was altered to make Qunari, perhaps the creation of Qunari was not done by the Evanuris, but rather by whomever was fighting them. And they were indeed created to be WMD's.
Ofc, it could indeed be as you say that the proto-Qunari were hybrids made by the Evanuris for the same reasons. And that the "magister" is indeed a human magister. The images of Par Vollen..pyramids; advanced civilization, yet it seems these horned creatures were in positions of power and were venerated, or at least respected. Yet they were also subjugated until they rebelled and defeated them.
That's why the Qunari "had to leave for some reason" that is not clear. The stories are not clear on that. Maybe because they do not want to retell the story of their greatest defeat and subsequent expulsion?
However, that would run counter to the hypothesis that these magisters were really the Evanuris. So, yeah.
Invasion: I'm going to be honest when I say that this reminds me of the invasion of the Deep Roads. I say this because when I did the Descent, the final level reminded me very much of the descriptions of Arlathan. Whether, or not Arlathan equates with the Golden City..I'm not really persuaded yet. However, the description of Arlathan with the floating buildings and cities in trees and clouds. When you see the last level of the Descent, that it what you see. A floating city wrapped in clouds and foliage above this inner ocean.
We also know that the Evanuris did indeed invade the Deep Roads, presumably for lyrium. Knocked down the statues of their gods and replaced them with their own. A letter we find says "that's not something your friends would do". There were no stairs because it was a matter of descent.
If it could be conflated with the Golden City...idk..maybe seeing as how that was the seat of the very precious lyrium...and the Stone. The stone; lyrium; blood of the Titans. It has the ability to help bring into manifestation things from the incorporeal to the corporeal...
The Fall: Yeah, the Crossroads is exactly what came to my mind as well. Heaven being the Golden City. At this point I don;t want to get into what may be symbolic because anything can be symbollic. So, right now I want to take it at face value..with a grain of salt..throw it all at wall and see what sticks. So, that leads me to wondering what could blind and burn like that? It sounds like a booby trap; protection from a Guardian; something mundane and simple as that; or even some natural phenomena that literally blew up in their face because they did not know how to handle it properly?
It obviously seems to be telling the beginning of the Blight. It being unleashed. However, the "magisters" were not sealed off then. They were thrown back down to earth. So, I'm not sure if that correlates with the dropping of the Veil and sequestering of the Evanuris' factions.
***before I forget beacuse I will, I want to mention that sometimes I feel as though the story of the Elven immortality may not have been about the Elves as we know them. The natural Thedosian elves. Rather, a memory of when the Evanuris first began to interact with Thedas. After awhile of being in this world, the Quickening began. If the humans were actually around a thousand years before the Veil--that is huge news to me, thnx for that nugget!--then they could have interacted with humans and thought that their quickening was the result.
This quickening, and I imagine the loss of some of their magical prowess, may have led them into a frenzied search for the lyrium which began the domino effect to the Blight and to modern Thedas. There was even one excerpt, and I have no idea which one it was, describing how idyllic things initially were for the Evanuris, but then things changed. I suspect they became entangled, if you will, and whatever they were before was being affected by an overlong stay in Thedas? So, gangbustering in to find the source of lyrium may have been an act of sheer desperation as well.
Archdemon: I'm not clear on your first sentence about "Dumat resulting in its near demise". Do you mean that Dumat did something to result in the dragon's near demise? Hold on, I gotta google that one....
okay, now I'm more confused. I don't see where Dumat comes into play here. The one magister standing at a distance is not said to be responsible, but rather was "faking" it. Idk what that means. Unless...this entity was going along with the backstabbing, and that was the betrayal. Not that they had anything to do with it, but rather did nothing to stop what was happening. This person did not have their back so to say. You know the saying about good people that do nothing..Someone they trusted was silent and let this happen/went along with it. This dragon did not expect more from the ones that were actually piercing it, but did expect more from the one that turned away from her. That's why they were the ones getting the "eyeful".
Ofc, it could be what he says, a depiction of the evolution of Tevinter's relationship with its gods. However, I like the idea that it's about the Evanuris better. heh.
On a separate note I think the parallel's between blood and lyrium and blood magic sacrifice and the slaying of Titans for their "blood" to increase their power is interesting. Like the practice of blood magic is a bastardization of this event. A downgrade really, but the same principles at work.
Um, I'm sure I forgot some things I wanted to spitball...
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Post by rapscallioness on Aug 4, 2016 22:17:12 GMT
I can't believe the humans were there a thousand years before the Veil dropped. That raises all sorts of interesting lines of thought.
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Post by thats1evildude on Aug 11, 2016 1:26:01 GMT
The humans were NOT present before the creation of the Veil. This arises from a confusion around the date the elves learned they were no longer immortal, which occurred LONG after the creation of the Veil.
Here's how it goes:
1) Veil is created at unspecified date. It should be noted the elves made contact with dwarves around 4600 Ancient, so it was likely before then. 2) Humans arrive in Thedas around 3100 Ancient. 3) Elves notice they are dying of old age around 2850 Ancient, 250 years after humans arrive in Thedas.
I really need to emphasize that the elves retained their immortality for a time after the Veil went up. Hence the reason why elves thought the shems were responsible: they only started dying of old age when the humans showed up.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 13, 2016 21:29:13 GMT
The Veil was created after contact was made with the dwarves. We know this because Mythal was involved with them and Solas only created the Veil after her murder. So elves were interacting with dwarves before the Veil.
The Dragon Age Keep now gives the date humans arrived in Thedas as -3900 Ancient. It also gives the date the Veil was crated as -2900 ancient. This is an absolute specified date. They no longer simply say the elves felt the quickening, they say the Veil was created. So the Veil was created after the arrival of humans. If the date given in the Keep is correct, then humans were around for 1000 years before the creation of the Veil. If the date given in the Keep is incorrect and it is really -3100, then it was only 200 years.
The dates have only recently been added to the Dragon Age Keep, so are the most recent from the developers and therefore you would assume supersede those given in World of Thedas 2.
The elves were aware of a difference in themselves as soon as the Veil went up. Abelas is well aware that it was not because of the humans. It is only the Dalish who believe it was because of the humans. This is because their history is fragmented. There may also be propaganda in there from the surviving priesthood of the other elven gods, possibly because the humans were in some way involved with Fen'Harel's supporters (this I will admit is only speculation).
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Post by thats1evildude on Aug 15, 2016 20:37:03 GMT
Yes, I checked the Keep and it says that humans first arrived in 3900 Ancient. That contradicts World of Thedas Vol. 1, which says they came in 3100 Ancient. I've tweeted Ben Gelinas (who wrote WOT) asking for clarification.
However, I can find no reference to a date for the creation of the Veil.
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Post by thats1evildude on Aug 15, 2016 21:00:41 GMT
Update: I asked Ben Gelinas about the arrival of humans in Thedas and he said most scholars agree upon roughly -3100 Ancient.
Could you screenshot this reference to the Veil in the Keep? I can't find it anywhere.
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Post by melbella on Aug 16, 2016 1:27:24 GMT
Could you screenshot this reference to the Veil in the Keep? I can't find it anywhere.
Go to the "World Lore" tab and click on the Ferelden icon on the map. There is a timeline on the left side that pops up.
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Post by thats1evildude on Aug 16, 2016 4:50:19 GMT
I did that, but I see no reference to the creation of the Veil, just a date for when elves noticed the end of their immortality: 2850 Ancient.
Yes, humans arrived before then, which is why they got blamed for the quickening. But the creation of the Veil occurred way before then; it just took a while for elves to lose their immortality.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 16, 2016 21:09:43 GMT
The thing is Solas quite emphatically says that he was to blame for the loss of immortality by the elves and that it was because of the creation of the Veil. It took everything from them, their magic, their immortality and they appeared like tranquil to him. Now I may have misremembered it saying about the Veil but it definitely says that "elven immortality ends", so by implication that is when the Veil went up because that is when it ended. I realise the explanation behind it says the same as WoT1, that the elves first noticed the quickening. However, it would not have taken long for the elves to realise that they were no longer ageless. It certainly wouldn't have been as long as 250 years which is the time from when humans are first thought to have appeared (-3100 - clearly the Keep must be a mistype) to when the elves noticed the quickening (-2850). In fact they must have been aware fairly quickly that something was different about them because of groups like Abelas dropping into uthenera to avoid aging.
The Veil definitely wasn't created back before the dwarves were discovered because Mythal was still around and in good health at that time. Andruil is also said to have got tired hunting mortals, which suggests she was hunting humans, again before the Veil was raised. It is also likely that Andruil hunting in the Void may have been what started the problems that led to Mythal's murder.
So why are you so convinced that the Veil was created long before humans arrived?
Anyone in contact with whoever wrote the entries for the Keep, so perhaps can get clarification from them?
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Post by thats1evildude on Aug 17, 2016 19:16:19 GMT
The thing is Solas quite emphatically says that he was to blame for the loss of immortality by the elves and that it was because of the creation of the Veil. It took everything from them, their magic, their immortality and they appeared like tranquil to him. Now I may have misremembered it saying about the Veil but it definitely says that "elven immortality ends", so by implication that is when the Veil went up because that is when it ended. I realise the explanation behind it says the same as WoT1, that the elves first noticed the quickening. However, it would not have taken long for the elves to realise that they were no longer ageless. It certainly wouldn't have been as long as 250 years which is the time from when humans are first thought to have appeared (-3100 - clearly the Keep must be a mistype) to when the elves noticed the quickening (-2850). In fact they must have been aware fairly quickly that something was different about them because of groups like Abelas dropping into uthenera to avoid aging.
The Veil definitely wasn't created back before the dwarves were discovered because Mythal was still around and in good health at that time. Andruil is also said to have got tired hunting mortals, which suggests she was hunting humans, again before the Veil was raised. It is also likely that Andruil hunting in the Void may have been what started the problems that led to Mythal's murder.
So why are you so convinced that the Veil was created long before humans arrived? Let me stress that I don't dispute that the creation of the Veil robbed the elves of their immortality; I just don't think the two events occured simultaneously. First off, human records show of no time before the Veil; Vivienne states as much in the Trespasser DLC. The Chantry itself teaches that the Veil was created before the Maker created men. Secondly, elves cut off contact with humans because they believed the shemlen were causing the quickening. However, that would make no sense if the elves started dying at the same time the Veil was formed. After all, the elves were heavily dependent on magic, and the Veil kickstarted the decline of their civilization. If it were me and my formerly immortal kin started dropping like flies right after Fen'Harel put up the Veil, I would blame their deaths on Fen'Harel, not the humans. But we know the elves didn't do that. The only way that narrative makes sense is if elves retained their immortality for a while. Don't put much stock in that mosaic about Andruil hunting mortals. For one, it's a religious parable meant to exalt the wisdom of Mythal. Secondly, 'mortals' could refer to anyone not a god (ie. not the Evanuris). Also, in regards to when elves made contact with dwarves, keep in mind that there's a difference between 'dwarves' and 'Sha-Brytol.' It's possible that the elves made war with the Titans and their mindless servants in some forgotten era, sealed up the Deep Roads and then made contact with the now-sentient dwarves centuries later.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 18, 2016 20:29:01 GMT
Of course things may be clarified in next game but I wouldn't be surprised to discover that humans records are as flawed as Dalish ones. I certainly wouldn't go by anything the Chantry claims. According to the Chant we went from happy spirits standing around praising the Maker to material world, with Veil and humans, with envious demons watching across the Veil and causing trouble. A great chunk of Thedas history is just nowhere to be found in the Chant. Namely the whole history of the Evanuris, the elvhen, the Titans, the dwarves, etc. Some 4,500 years of pre-human history to be precise.
Vivienne is from southern Thedas. The oldest civilisation is Tevinter. If the truth is to be found anywhere, it is in their archives. So the fact that Vivienne's knowledge of a time before the Veil is deficient proves nothing. Tevinter tried to cover up how much they owed to what they scavenged from the elves. They had their own myth of superiority to maintain, so their ancestors may have omitted certain details from history. Furthermore if humans did not possess magic pre-Veil, then they would not have been aware of anything being different when it was rasied.
It was definitely heavily hinted in the Descent that the Shaparate are not as reliable keepers of history as we had been led to believe. They had been shown to have altered records in recent history. Why not in the past? The first dwarf contact was 1,500 years before the arrival of humans. There is no way that the Veil could have been raised before this and then the elves survived without aging until the arrival of humans.
The problem in all our interpretations of events is that previously elven legends were just that; something that they asserted but could not be proved. Now we have been provided with all sorts of corroboration of what the Dalish have maintained. Their gods were "real", even if you deny they were really gods. They did have a powerful magical empire. All elves were possessed of magic (but probably varied in ability). All elves were ageless (immortal as in long lived not unkillable). In addition, we have been told existed in a time when there was no Veil and the inhabitants of the two states of reality (the Waking World and the Beyond) could pass freely physically between the two, or at the very least spirits could pass freely into the material world.
The only thing the Dalish got wrong about their history was blaming humans for their misfortunes. This seems likely down to the fact that modern elves never experienced the pre-Veil world. The ancient ancestors seemed content to let them care for them whilst in Uthenera without informing them of everything that occurred. No doubt they encouraged them to keep away from humans because they didn't want to be disturbed. It would seem that the majority of settlements were probably founded by the priesthood of the Evanuris, hence all the negative history of Fen'Harel and the positive history of the Creators. Then with the fall of the city in Arlathan Forest, the elves had a definite memory of human aggression to relate to, even though it would seem that in fact Tevinter was only responding to aggression shown by the elves, likely much like the response of those in the Arbor Wilds to intruders. Then Imperium apparently did nothing to dissuade the elves from this view and were at pains to wipe out the language, religion and culture. So this is why the Dalish memory of events has humans as the villains. This does not mean that humans were not around pre-Veil. The Dalish weren't aware of the Veil being created either. They mention how their ancestors viewed humans as little more than vermin. That seems in keeping with the pre-Veil Evanuris and their followers. It makes more sense that humans arrived, elves didn't pay them much mind other than as pests, then Solas raised the Veil and this had the effect of aging them and possibly making them more vulnerable to disease (which may well have come from humans). So the blame just got wrongly apportioned, due to subsequent historical events. You could just as easily ask why the humans were blamed for the destruction of the elven empire, when clearly that was down to Fen'Harel as well. Abelas was well aware of what happened. The memories of the elves in the Library show they were fully aware of who was to blame. Yet the story that came down to the Dalish was that humans were responsible
In some ways, the writers make inhabitants of Thedas seem ignorant about their history because they don't want to reveal plot lines too soon. An excellent example is the history of Ameridan. The Chantry may have wiped him from history but we learn that his own clan has constantly maintained he was one of their own. Thus his name should be known among the Dalish, but a Dalish Inquisitor is as much in ignorance as other races. In DAO the name of Shartan isn't even mentioned in our clan's stories and is not revealed until we speak to a Chantry sister in Denerim or travel to Haven. Yet in DAI, Gisharel is quoted as teaching that Andraste called Shartan brother, so it is clear he is still spoken of by the Dalish, if nothing else to emphasise the treachery of humans.
The original purpose of my post was to discuss the mosaics. The dwarf clearly tells us that they have been altered. PW confirmed in one of his interviews that a lot of statues and pictures in Tevinter were altered to make them appear as though they related to human history and gods, when in fact they pre-dated their civilisation and they had just re-purposed them to fit with their own legends. This is what I am getting at. The only one where the relation of humans to the Veil is relevant is Freed are the Slaves. The title and the picture itself would make no sense in relation to the Qunari, since they are too recent. It could just be a period of ancient Tevinter and if all the other mosaics are from the same period, then that would be true. However, the Fall and the Archdemon don't really seem to fit the interpretation given them. (See my explanation above). Which is why I tried pushing them further back in history to the time of the Evanuris. So ignoring the problems with the Veil, what do you think?
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Post by thats1evildude on Aug 19, 2016 2:43:25 GMT
Freed are the Slaves: Appears to show a Magister watching chained qunari march by. However, it originally seemed to have 7 figures in it. There has long been a theory that the kossith (the forerunners of the qunari) were hybrid creations of humans mixed with dragon.
Gatsi's notes state that the chained qunari were always part of the mosaic, but the magister was added later over top of seven figures. Is it possible that the seven figures were once the seven Old Gods, who we know take the form of dragons? I think the mosaic alludes to a connection between the Old Gods and qunari that pre-dates the Tevinter Imperium.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 19, 2016 15:44:02 GMT
That mosaic is the one that I have the most doubts about. Why is it called "Freed are the Slaves"? Is it because the Qunari are effectively slaves to the Qun and therefore even in the chains of the Imperium they are freed? Otherwise, who are they being freed from?
Apart from a group of Kossith who landed in southern Thedas before the 1st Blight and were likely killed or captured during that time, there are allegedly no records of Kossith/Qunari before their appearance in the Steel Age. Seven figures could be the Old Gods or their priests but that means the Imperium have definitely covered up any connection their ancestors had with this racial group.
Alternatively, as I suggest, the link lies even further back, in the time of the Evanuris. Whatever the case, Freed are the Slaves definitely suggests someone more significant than recent hostilities between the Imperium and the Qun, however the Magister in the picture wanted it to appear.
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Post by thats1evildude on Aug 19, 2016 15:52:27 GMT
Seven figures could be the Old Gods or their priests but that means the Imperium have definitely covered up any connection their ancestors had with this racial group. Yuuuuup. Yup yup. I theorize that the Old Gods were the gods of the qunari way back in the day. Then the Qun happened, freeing them from "slavery," so the Old Gods found new followers in the Tevinter Imperium instead.
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August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 19, 2016 19:08:15 GMT
Yes, I think it is very likely that the Kossith were dragon worshippers. Whether their physique came about through imbibing a bit too much dragon blood or there was some sort of shapeshifter mating going on, all the hints are there that they have a close connection with dragons. For all we know, the Kossith dragon worshippers might still be out there somewhere else across the sea and the Qunari may have had no choice about leaving but were in fact fleeing persecution. I don't know how significant the entry in the Timeline is when it refers to kossith rather than qunari, in recording their first time on the continent of Thedas in -410, but if this is deliberate, then were these kossith fleeing the Qun or was this before the Qun? I'm inclined towards the latter interpretation and may be Koslun was one of these pioneer kossith, who then travelled around Thedas studying the various systems of government before arriving at his philosophy, then returned over the sea to the homeland of his people to spread the word, leaving behind the small community that was later destroyed in the 1st Blight.
I don't think the old gods only took up with the Tevinter Imperium because they lost their worshippers among the kossith though. If they were in another part of the world, why shouldn't the old gods have more than one set of worshippers? The Neromenians also came from across the sea and fairly early on had the belief that their heroes who died in battle would be reborn as dragons. So the kossith and the Neromenians may have originated from the same ethnic group and the kossith only developed in the way they did after the Neromenians left looking for new lands. It is odd that both the Neromenians and the Qunari first came to the northern islands. Early humans must have built the pyramids that are found in the jungles there and pictures on the temples associated with them have horned figures in positions of authority. Scholars have speculated that the reason the people of Par Vollen so readily accepted the invading Qunari as their leaders is because of those ancient leaders. The horns may either have been literal representations of the leaders, or a priesthood imitating their gods. Dragon/old god worship seems likely to be the link between them.
The elves worshipped beings who could take the form of dragons, the ancient humans worshipped dragons, the ancient kossith likely worshipped dragons and the dwarves have always been afraid of dragons. Clearly the link between all the ancients was dragons.
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