VARMAELEN
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by VARMAELEN on Nov 28, 2024 16:08:32 GMT
But seriously...when in the history of humanity has anyone ever referred to The Last of Us as an RPG. It was a critic of BioWare tendency of diluting RPG aspect of their game to become mere RPG elements. DAI is a great (RPG) game, for most people that never/barely play RPG which make me sad because they're trying to appeal more and more to this subset of the audience, this bad precedent dating back from Mass Effect/KOTOR success. The point from my argument was by appealing to an abstract ideas of an audience they think that will like their game, Veilguard becomes dull and bland, because it doesn't know what it want to be. A great narrative game? The narrative is tied to RPG system which they're keep diluting since DAO. A great RPG? They have not been making one since DAO/DA2 for the sake of narrative. It's an uroboros type of problem. A great narratively driven game means we are trading a good DM for a good story teller, except that this storyteller success depends solely to their ability to write an engaging story which seems not to be the case with DAV. Players are restricted to access/do stuff that will break the narrative. A good DM may not necessarily posses the skill to craft a great narrative but because this DM is good at his job crafting RPG experience, the player can make something fun out of it regardless, and craft a version of narrative by themselves. Sorry if this sounds like a rambling. The point is that Veilguard is only decent at things but not great. And we expected it to be able to turn water into wine.
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Post by ClarkKent on Nov 28, 2024 16:18:13 GMT
I get that, but it was the mention with Assassin's Creed that confused me a tad. The latest Assassin's Creeds do have various RPG light elements. I can see the argument being if you like pseudo RPGs like Ass Creed Odyssey then you'll like Veilguard. Which is probably true.
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Post by colfoley on Nov 28, 2024 16:29:29 GMT
I get that, but it was the mention with Assassin's Creed that confused me a tad. The latest Assassin's Creeds do have various RPG light elements. I can see the argument being if you like pseudo RPGs like Ass Creed Odyssey then you'll like Veilguard. Which is probably true. they are marketed and released as RPGs (except for mirage maybe?) So ones personal opinion if they are or aren't is quite irrelevant.
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andorvex
N3
Free me now, I'm not answering questions, blah blah blah. Don't you know who I am?
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Free me now, I'm not answering questions, blah blah blah. Don't you know who I am?
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Post by andorvex on Nov 28, 2024 16:56:56 GMT
But seriously...when in the history of humanity has anyone ever referred to The Last of Us as an RPG. It was a critic of BioWare tendency of diluting RPG aspect of their game to become mere RPG elements. DAI is a great (RPG) game, for most people that never/barely play RPG which make me sad because they're trying to appeal more and more to this subset of the audience, this bad precedent dating back from Mass Effect/KOTOR success. The point from my argument was by appealing to an abstract ideas of an audience they think that will like their game, Veilguard becomes dull and bland, because it doesn't know what it want to be. A great narrative game? The narrative is tied to RPG system which they're keep diluting since DAO. A great RPG? They have not been making one since DAO/DA2 for the sake of narrative. It's an uroboros type of problem. A great narratively driven game means we are trading a good DM for a good story teller, except that this storyteller success depends solely to their ability to write an engaging story which seems not to be the case with DAV. Players are restricted to access/do stuff that will break the narrative. A good DM may not necessarily posses the skill to craft a great narrative but because this DM is good at his job crafting RPG experience, the player can make something fun out of it regardless, and craft a version of narrative by themselves. Sorry if this sounds like a rambling. The point is that Veilguard is only decent at things but not great. And we expected it to be able to turn water into wine. Maybe I misunderstood what you wrote and if I did call me out on it, but rpg systems without stories are completely useless. That's why I personally hated NwN and stuff like Solasta. but I think we already discussed this disagreement between us
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mikaelnovasun
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by mikaelnovasun on Nov 28, 2024 17:00:00 GMT
I get that, but it was the mention with Assassin's Creed that confused me a tad. The latest Assassin's Creeds do have various RPG light elements. I can see the argument being if you like pseudo RPGs like Ass Creed Odyssey then you'll like Veilguard. Which is probably true. they are marketed and released as RPGs (except for mirage maybe?) So ones personal opinion if they are or aren't is quite irrelevant. Oh boy...do I have something to sell you. Using a company's marketing of a game is not as strong of argument as you seem to think. Or any product for that matter. I enjoy DA2 a great deal and consider it's combat an improvement over DAO, but look at its original marketing for the combat. It was advertised as a hack-n-slash, "press a button" and action happens. While it improved on DAO's combat it was by no means as "action packed" as the marketing claimed.
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Post by colfoley on Nov 28, 2024 17:07:25 GMT
they are marketed and released as RPGs (except for mirage maybe?) So ones personal opinion if they are or aren't is quite irrelevant. Oh boy...do I have something to sell you. Using a company's marketing of a game is not as strong of argument as you seem to think. Or any product for that matter. I enjoy DA2 a great deal and consider it's combat an improvement over DAO, but look at its original marketing for the combat. It was advertised as a hack-n-slash, "press a button" and action happens. While it improved on DAO's combat it was by no means as "action packed" as the marketing claimed. think you partially missed my point. But on the particulars I've seen a lot of people complain that they did exactly that with DA2s combat. What I was talking about is matters of definition and self identification. Someone can market their game how they want to but if the game is very specifically been labeled as something I find it only logical to deal with it in that paradigm.
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Post by river82 on Nov 28, 2024 21:30:14 GMT
But seriously...when in the history of humanity has anyone ever referred to The Last of Us as an RPG. It was a critic of BioWare tendency of diluting RPG aspect of their game to become mere RPG elements. DAI is a great (RPG) game, for most people that never/barely play RPG which make me sad because they're trying to appeal more and more to this subset of the audience, this bad precedent dating back from Mass Effect/KOTOR success. The point from my argument was by appealing to an abstract ideas of an audience they think that will like their game, Veilguard becomes dull and bland, because it doesn't know what it want to be. A great narrative game? The narrative is tied to RPG system which they're keep diluting since DAO. A great RPG? They have not been making one since DAO/DA2 for the sake of narrative. It's an uroboros type of problem. A great narratively driven game means we are trading a good DM for a good story teller, except that this storyteller success depends solely to their ability to write an engaging story which seems not to be the case with DAV. Players are restricted to access/do stuff that will break the narrative. A good DM may not necessarily posses the skill to craft a great narrative but because this DM is good at his job crafting RPG experience, the player can make something fun out of it regardless, and craft a version of narrative by themselves. Sorry if this sounds like a rambling. The point is that Veilguard is only decent at things but not great. And we expected it to be able to turn water into wine. The funny thing is Bioware devs, and even founders I believe, used to criticize JRPGs quite a bit over a decade ago. Oh how the tables have turned
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VARMAELEN
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 146 Likes: 195
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by VARMAELEN on Nov 29, 2024 3:12:39 GMT
NwN and stuff like Solasta Agreed, Solasta was rough. NWN was okay though, its only sin was the OC. SoU/HotU was/is a great experience. But everything that good in later game originated from NwN, especially the usual BioWarean narrative design (incomprehensible horror mcguffin, the creator race, the builder, the Reapers, the Blight/Archdemon - NwN did it first, cmiiw)
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andorvex
N3
Free me now, I'm not answering questions, blah blah blah. Don't you know who I am?
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by andorvex on Nov 29, 2024 9:15:14 GMT
NwN and stuff like Solasta Agreed, Solasta was rough. NWN was okay though, its only sin was the OC. SoU/HotU was/is a great experience. But everything that good in later game originated from NwN, especially the usual BioWarean narrative design (incomprehensible horror mcguffin, the creator race, the builder, the Reapers, the Blight/Archdemon - NwN did it first, cmiiw) That (NwN set the ground work for many Bioware games. It's even true for the Witcher series) maybe so, it doesn't automatically makes NwN good. But I think what you wrote about it is generally very fair. I didn't have the patience to go on to the expansion packs of it. But I'm also not big of any Bioware expansion pack (so wasn't a huge fan of TOB nor awakening)
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dominicrichenel
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Post by dominicrichenel on Nov 29, 2024 18:07:45 GMT
I haven’t finished the game yet, but I’m loving the experience immensely. For me, it feels truly like a sort of homecoming. There are things that only Bioware knows how to do and I hope they keep making games.
During the last few years, I wondered if I should mourn Bioware as if it was dead, but I’m glad it is not the case. I’m also glad that Bioware didn’t disappoint me yet like other companies as Square, Atlus and Obsidian did to a greater or lesser degree.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Nov 30, 2024 0:55:48 GMT
Credits finished rolling a few minutes ago.
The ending didn't quite live up to expectations I created due to others opinions, but it was still pretty great.
I need a bit more time to process, to work out if it ends up 3rd or 4th amongst Dragon Age games for me - but either way, I had a blast. There were issues - mostly with character art style (the environments were fucking gorgeous), the sheer volume of low-stakes companion content in Act 2 particularly, and the odd choice of mission structuring, but by-and-large those are minor complaints.
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Post by smilesja on Nov 30, 2024 2:05:18 GMT
Credits finished rolling a few minutes ago. The ending didn't quite live up to expectations I created due to others opinions, but it was still pretty great. I need a bit more time to process, to work out if it ends up 3rd or 4th amongst Dragon Age games for me - but either way, I had a blast. There were issues - mostly with character art style (the environments were fucking gorgeous), the sheer volume of low-stakes companion content in Act 2 particularly, and the odd choice of mission structuring, but by-and-large those are minor complaints. Given how the stakes for the main quest were pushed to heights not seen since Origins, I was pretty happy that the stakes for the companions were more personal. Glad to see the writers go to the DA2 well for their quests.
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Post by colfoley on Nov 30, 2024 2:12:01 GMT
Credits finished rolling a few minutes ago. The ending didn't quite live up to expectations I created due to others opinions, but it was still pretty great. I need a bit more time to process, to work out if it ends up 3rd or 4th amongst Dragon Age games for me - but either way, I had a blast. There were issues - mostly with character art style (the environments were fucking gorgeous), the sheer volume of low-stakes companion content in Act 2 particularly, and the odd choice of mission structuring, but by-and-large those are minor complaints. Given how the stakes for the main quest were pushed to heights not seen since Origins, I was pretty happy that the stakes for the companions were more personal. Glad to see the writers go to the DA2 well for their quests.
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sjsharp2010
N7
Go Team!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Nov 30, 2024 12:14:25 GMT
I haven’t finished the game yet, but I’m loving the experience immensely. For me, it feels truly like a sort of homecoming. There are things that only Bioware knows how to do and I hope they keep making games. During the last few years, I wondered if I should mourn Bioware as if it was dead, but I’m glad it is not the case. I’m also glad that Bioware didn’t disappoint me yet like other companies as Square, Atlus and Obsidian did to a greater or lesser degree. Yeah with how the abandoned Andromeda an dwha thappened wit hAnthem I ha dmy doubt' swe' dsee too much moe rof the Biowae rwe know but fo rm eBiowae rcame back stron gwith Veoilguard and I'm glad EA allowed them to.
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sjsharp2010
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Go Team!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
Posts: 12,999 Likes: 21,038
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Nov 30, 2024 12:19:22 GMT
Credits finished rolling a few minutes ago. The ending didn't quite live up to expectations I created due to others opinions, but it was still pretty great. I need a bit more time to process, to work out if it ends up 3rd or 4th amongst Dragon Age games for me - but either way, I had a blast. There were issues - mostly with character art style (the environments were fucking gorgeous), the sheer volume of low-stakes companion content in Act 2 particularly, and the odd choice of mission structuring, but by-and-large those are minor complaints. Given how the stakes for the main quest were pushed to heights not seen since Origins, I was pretty happy that the stakes for the companions were more personal. Glad to see the writers go to the DA2 well for their quests. Yea hi tdefinitel yfel tlike th ecoming togethe ro fsomething big lik eDAO ME2's and ME3's ending. It definitel yfel tlike a pretty solid story all th ewa ythroug htbh. Yes it had it's weaker moments but all games do bu teven it's weakes tmoments were prett ysolid.
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Post by ClarkKent on Nov 30, 2024 21:01:27 GMT
Well after binging act 3 today I have now officially completed the game. I have criticisms towards the game, but I do feel a sense of melancholy I suppose. It's strange to think I completed Inquisition when I was a teenager, and now 10 years later I'm seeing the conclusion.
And overall I thought the conclusion was done magnificently. Given the large scale of the game I was wondering how they would wrap it up, but they pulled it off, and there were a few genuinely touching moments.
I have my criticisms about the factions and the world building, but at the moment I'm still absorbing what happened, and I have some nice memories of my time with this game.
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Post by cockyrustler on Nov 30, 2024 22:23:38 GMT
Weell, finished the game. Man, I need a vacation. Some place nice and cozy, where no one talks about their feelings, uses the word "team", or "El'garnan and Ghilanain" ( holy shit, how many times? It feels like hangover, when just thinking of it sends you rolling over in bed). Finale was ok to good; though nowhere near ME2..doesn't really have that Grand visual spectacle and fantastic music blended together. Sending Egghead to fuck himself in the Veil was nice though..even better than punching him in Inquisition. Can't see myself replaying it. It's too damn long and so much of it "El'garnan and Ghilanain" ( gah, I'm saying it on my own!). It's kind of like Rings of Power; some beautiful visual scenery, rare good character moments, but you have to go through tedious, nonsensical plot, uninteresting character storylines, and world that lacks any sense of authenticity. If Bioware wants to survive they need to steer in completely different narrative direction; Bloody hell, conflict is the most basic part of decent storytelling.
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Post by ClarkKent on Nov 30, 2024 22:37:26 GMT
Weell, finished the game. Man, I need a vacation. Some place nice and cozy, where no one talks about their feelings, uses the word "team", or "El'garnan and Ghilanain" ( holy shit, how many times? It feels like hangover, when just thinking of it sends you rolling over in bed). Yup. As much as I liked the game overall I am rather happy to be able to move on with my life lol. To a place without blight boils, and Venatori. And besides, I need to let the ol' strain in my thumb heal after spamming that dodge button so much.
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