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Post by soultaker on Nov 9, 2024 11:09:46 GMT
Hello, If you’re reading this, you should know that I’ve been following these forums since they were founded and was also a member of the old Bioware Network, but I never made a new account after it closed. Why start a new thread just for this? Because I think the way the studio in my country translated some of the language is quite unique, at least from the perspective of how I speak and read.
Let’s begin with the game experience itself. I was quite worried after seeing the trailers, but now that I’ve finished the game, I can say that I don’t regret buying it. It’s a pretty great game overall in my opinion even if it is missing a good chunk of choices of the earlier games. However, what really threw me off in certain scenes was the translation into German. I’d like to know if other languages had similar issues. Before I go deeper into this: I don’t care about the controversy surrounding the "woke" themes. I had multiple dialogues with my character (Rook) and other NPCs (cutscenes included) where non-binary pronouns were used in translation. I’m not judging whether this is positive or negative—I just want to focus on how the translation impacted immersion. In German, there are masculine, feminine, and neuter forms for nouns and pronouns. The way non-binary conversations were translated felt unnatural and sometimes confusing. For example, “The Guardian” which would be translated as “Der/ Die Behüter (neutrum/maskulinum) . But in the game, they used “Behütere,” which makes no sense in German. It felt incredibly strange to hear voice actors use these terms, especially during scenes where characters couldnt even know the pronouns of an enemy and started referring to them as “hen.” I was left wondering, “Who is hen?” I’m not against Bioware’s goal of promoting inclusivity. However, direct translation of non-binary language from English to German without adaptation doesn’t work seamlessly. A more neutral translation would have preserved the intent without breaking immersion, as most people would still understand what was happening. I’m curious if other languages face similar issues. Translating non-binary language 1:1 can disrupt the flow of languages that use grammatical gender. I’d love to hear if others had similar experiences in different languages. For me, it was a noticeable “stumble” in the narrative that affected how I engaged with the game. Thank you, and I hope we can have a civil discussion about this!
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Post by Reznore on Nov 9, 2024 13:00:27 GMT
I saw some french translation and it was a mess of the first order. The French academy of language decided against having some of the stuff Veilguard translation does because it's too messy for very little gain. Everything can be gendered in French, and neutral is male. So you got -e- added to pretty much everything, so written language doesn't even sound like when you're talking because nobody talks in an inclusive manners. And they made up "el " or whatever it is as "they" because again it isn't a thing in France . Non binary is an north american concept. There's always been androgynous folks, plenty of french song in the 80's praised gender fluidity.
Loved this band, it's about gender fluidity, went to a show with everybody singing it...that's inclusivity well done. In words people can understand. And non preachy.
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Post by soultaker on Nov 9, 2024 13:12:19 GMT
Are you french speaking or english speaking? Its kind of reassuring that my western neighbors have the same issue. If you are not french how does it feel in english? Its so bizarre in german i cannot feel like : "Is it normal in english?". It literally makes no sense in german and i wonder how it would even translate back?
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Post by Reznore on Nov 9, 2024 13:19:05 GMT
Are you french speaking or english speaking? Its kind of reassuring that my western neighbors have the same issue. If you are not french how does it feel in english? Its so bizarre in german i cannot feel like : "Is it normal in english?". It literally makes no sense in german and i wonder how it would even translate back? I'm french. I play in english though. In english you only have "they" "them" "their" instead of "she/her/" or "him/his" that's pretty much it. I saw some screenshot in French and it's like in what language is this stuff? Cos I've never read anything like this in French in my whole life.
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Post by fredvdp on Nov 9, 2024 13:25:50 GMT
I have an interest in linguistics, so this is something I was wondering as well. A followup question might be: How do they localize this in Japanese where people don't typically refer to others with third person pronouns? But my knowledge of Japanese is limited, so that's better left for someone else.
I remember when Sam Smith came out as non-binary, and the Flemish media had trouble with this because they thought "they" was always plural, and translated it into Dutch with hen/hun (they/them plural). After a while, subtitles in TV shows established "die" as the gender neutral first person pronoun, but that only works for written Dutch because some dialects pronounce the word differently depending on the gender. (e.g. In my Antwerpian dialect the feminine form is flat, whereas the masculine form is pronounced with a diphthong.) When I'm having a conversation with someone in my native Antwerpian and need to refer to a non-binary person, it can be a bit of a struggle.
But yeah, language is culture, and translation is adaptation, so there's often no right way to deal with it.
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Post by SofaJockey on Nov 9, 2024 13:46:29 GMT
If you’re reading this, you should know that I’ve been following these forums since they were founded and was also a member of the old Bioware Network, but I never made a new account after it closed. Always nice when someone from 'BSN prime' finds their way home. A very interesting point you make about the linguistics. Art has always tackled politics, but in this case such politics and language are intertwined. This must be problematic from a localisation point of view for countries with many linguistic genders, or none. As they say in Star Trek: "Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra Shaka, When the Walls Fell."
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Post by fraggle on Nov 9, 2024 14:21:35 GMT
I don't play in German as I love the English language written and spoken too much, but I understand your problem. I guess it's mostly an issue of finding rules everyone should follow (like the Duden for example), and that it's relatively newly incorporated into our language/videogames? It takes some getting used to and it feels like it's coming out of nowhere. Personally, I'd go always for male use of a word if it's unclear what gender a character is, as it sounds most natural and neutral to me. The English "they" on the other hand has always been perfect to address such things and I use it since forever when I don't know the gender of a person. So it feels normal for me, but in German we don't really have such a single word that could mean either male or female or non-binary. That is mostly the issue for me in German.
And you're right about translating non-binary 1:1, it creates a weird flow. I'd always prefer describing it in a way people see what's going on instead of straight in the face, but then I am not non-binary and don't know how they would feel about it. The thing is, Bioware wanted to make a point that certain characters are non-binary, so it probably had to be addressed in a more obvious way in localisation, too. Not sure if translators received instructions for how to deal with non-binary terms.
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Post by fairdragon on Nov 10, 2024 7:08:36 GMT
It felt incredibly strange to hear voice actors use these terms, especially during scenes where characters couldnt even know the pronouns of an enemy and started referring to them as “hen.” This is my problem as well. The word 'hen' isn't a word that really exsist in germany.
So it feels normal for me, but in German we don't really have such a single word that could mean either male or female or non-binary. That is mostly the issue for me in German. The thing is, Bioware wanted to make a point that certain characters are non-binary, so it probably had to be addressed in a more obvious way in localisation, too. That is the problem. Because we have a solution for it in germany. Instead of 'they' we use the name. So if we take Taash as exemple, instead of 'they', fill in 'Taash'.
More problems with: For example, “The Guardian” which would be translated as “Der/ Die Behüter (neutrum/maskulinum) . But in the game, they used “Behütere,” which makes no sense in German. We would use 'he' instead of they for this case. If you don't want that use the word 'Behüter' instead of 'they'. For anyone that doesn't know german language: The real gender doesn't matter. (der hund = the dog. 'He' no matter if the dog is male or female.)
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Post by Gileadan on Nov 14, 2024 8:57:33 GMT
I found an article about this in a gaming magazine.
Apparently they - unfortunately - start a few sentences with the made-up pronoun "Hen". Since that word is a complete ass pull and no one has heard it before, as a German you will think that it must be referring to a person's name due to its position in the sentence... and since there is no character named "Hen", you're left scratching your head.
Example: "Hen ist mir begegnet." - "I met Hen." If this was referring to male with the usual pronouns, it would have been "Er ist mir begegnet" - "I met him".
If the keeper had been male, his workshop would have been referred to (in the grammatically correct way) as "Werkstatt des Behüters". This was butchered to "Werkstatt ders Behütere". It looks like the slurred speech of someone having had way too many beers, and maybe that's not too far from the truth.
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Post by Ieldra on Nov 14, 2024 11:46:03 GMT
If the keeper had been male, his workshop would have been referred to (in the grammatically correct way) as "Werkstatt des Behüters". This was butchered to "Werkstatt ders Behütere". It looks like the slurred speech of someone having had way too many beers, and maybe that's not too far from the truth. Wow, that's super-weird. Do they really think they can make people talk like that?
I'm German, but I usually play in English because the VA tends to be much better. Now I'm glad that I didn't try the German version. Even reading this is like a softball to the face that immediately pulls you out of the game world.
Back in the 1980s, there was a movement that wanted to remove all references to natural gender from the German language and use the neuter for everyone and everything. It was radical and resulted in some weirdness as well, but at least it had the advantage of being simple and efficient. It's not something I liked at the time, but I would've been willing to adapt to it. I'm not willing to adapt to the complicated mess they're proposing these days, of which the expression you quote is an example, and not just because it's a complicated mess, but because I don't agree with this narcissistic idea that every gender identity should be visible in language. I find it much better if none is visible.
Also, for the native English-speakers here: you don't know you lucky you are. You have no gendered articles, and almost all occupational nouns have long lost the feminine forms that once existed so they're now all gender-neutral by default.
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Post by fredvdp on Nov 14, 2024 12:12:30 GMT
Apparently they - unfortunately - start a few sentences with the made-up pronoun "Hen". Since that word is a complete ass pull and no one has heard it before I looked it up. The possible origin is the German translation of a Swedish children's book ("Kivi & Monsterhund") where a character is referred to with the Swedish gender neutral "hen", which they just took over in the German translation due to the lack of a proper alternative. Though apparently the use of gender neutral hen is fairly modern in Swedish as well.
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Post by Pounce de León on Nov 15, 2024 15:44:45 GMT
It's a translation issue where there just isn't a proper way to translate a cultural issue into another language that hasn't adopted the "newthink" for the population that uses that language. The easiest way to illustrate is watching "Pulp Fiction" in German where Mia gestures a square (with sparkle animation) upon saying "Don't be no..." - it makes no sense in German, but in English it's easily understandable. The pronoun usage is obviously a more complex issue. I've seen it used in literature as well, where it just doesn't make sense either. There is maybe a subset of the audience that gets it from the get go but you can't assume every subculture thing being easily translated into different cultures and audiences.
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Post by LoonySpectre on Nov 17, 2024 12:47:23 GMT
Russian language also has masculine, feminine and neuter forms. The translators went the simplest possible way: Pronoun "they" was translated literally, as the corresponding Russian third-person plural nominative ("oni"). Verbs (the only verb forms that are gendered in Russian are past tense) were translated into plural form. This looks weird, but there's actually some linguistic precedent to this - in the Tsarist times, the "royal we/they" was occasionally used to refer to royals and aristocrats, with verbs used in plural form. Nouns did not change - most Russian nouns that describe occupations (such as "dragon slayer") are masculine-gendered by default, with quite a few (but not all) of them having a corresponding feminine form. So the translators did not invent any new forms for occupational nouns and just went with the default masculine forms because they mean "a person of occupation X, regardless of sex or gender".
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Post by Garo on Nov 17, 2024 23:59:42 GMT
Polish guy here!
This is a very interesting topic, so far one thing really jumped out to me and it is the gender neutral pronouns (they/them) that were translated as onu/jenu in Polish.
The problem is, we have no such pronouns, this is completely made up.
It's "on" for him and "ona" for her. So onu makes as much sense as saying hus in English and deciding it will work as a non-binary pronoun.
This makes even less sense because you could literally translate they/them as oni/ich (same plural form but in Polish) yet they decided to just make stuff up. I don't know who decides this stuff but some translator got really creative with this one.
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Post by Gwydden on Nov 18, 2024 0:21:20 GMT
Also, for the native English-speakers here: you don't know you lucky you are. You have no gendered articles, and almost all occupational nouns have long lost the feminine forms that once existed so they're now all gender-neutral by default.
My native language is Spanish, where absolutely everything is gendered. I use English almost exclusively these days, so I wonder how they handled Taash in the Spanish localization. I've heard there's been attempts to create non-binary pronouns in Spanish, but I've literally never heard anyone use one. Maybe corresponding subcultures in other parts of the world contributed the neologisms some of y'all are seeing.
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