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Post by 10k on Dec 1, 2016 18:34:22 GMT
Wow screwing up the lore even further. ME:Revelations made it clear weapons used small projectiles. Thermal clips were never ammo, they were there to cool down the weapon after you fired. After running out of thermal clips in ME2 and 3 you'd here the classic overheating sound. This is stupid, they should just bring both the overheating system and the weapon mod system back from ME1. This way they won't need to mess up the lore. If the modding system was back along with the overheat system you could mod your weapon so it would overheat rarely. It would be better than this. Atleast thermal clips skirted the bounds of lore. Bringing back "Normal Ammo" ignores lore all together. You know, I understand not reading all the thread when there's multiple pages, but a dev answered a few poses before you. Guns still use thermal clips. Most of them, anyway. "Ammo" is just dev short-hand for thermal clips since they serve the function that ammo serves in other shooters. They're still using thermal clips. Also, there's the possibility some weapons are actually based on the overheat system. I already knew this, I only stated my opinion on the matter. But thanks for pointing out the obvious
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 1, 2016 19:17:13 GMT
You know, I understand not reading all the thread when there's multiple pages, but a dev answered a few poses before you. They're still using thermal clips. Also, there's the possibility some weapons are actually based on the overheat system. I already knew this, I only stated my opinion on the matter. But thanks for pointing out the obvious With 'Wow screwing up the lore even further' It didn't seem that you were just stating your opinion on the matter, but criticizing the choice of going for the ammo.
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Post by dropzofcrimzon on Dec 1, 2016 21:27:48 GMT
Soooooo let me get this straight.
We send people in another galaxy to fend off for themselves and we give them weapons that rely on finite ammo as opposed to weapons that could technically fire indefinitely. Why? Did they think "hey, I am not sure their lives are going to be challenged enough, let us saddle with having to manufacture and carry around ammo and/or clips going BACKWARD in out tech progress"
It makes even LESS sense NOW than when they did it in ME2.
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Post by theflyingzamboni on Dec 1, 2016 22:48:28 GMT
Given the rough google translation and Gamble's reference to strategies against different opponents, I'm wondering how much of this answer is about thermal clips. It sounds like he's also talking about ammo powers, so I'm not even convinced yet that this is saying they're replacing thermal clips with normal ammo.
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 1, 2016 23:05:56 GMT
Given the rough google translation and Gamble's reference to strategies against different opponents, I'm wondering how much of this answer is about thermal clips. It sounds like he's also talking about ammo powers, so I'm not even convinced yet that this is saying they're replacing thermal clips with normal ammo. Agreed. Given that Ian has already stated that thermal clips are still in play, I'd say that you're correct in guessing that it is actually ammo powers that are being changed. Perhaps ammo powers are gone, and we once more use special ammunitions/mods, as in ME1, to alter our fire?
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Post by Arcian on Dec 2, 2016 0:49:21 GMT
Well, they're out to make money, not sense. Even if we accept this as 100% true for the sake of argument, this change isn't going to make them any money either. Snark aside, the less time they spend having to go back and double-check the lore to make sure they're not contradicting themselves, the faster they can release the game. You're allowed to ship a game full of plot holes, but not with missing textures or glitchy gameplay. It's obvious where BioWare is putting their budget.
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Post by dropzofcrimzon on Dec 2, 2016 1:30:10 GMT
Even if we accept this as 100% true for the sake of argument, this change isn't going to make them any money either. Snark aside, the less time they spend having to go back and double-check the lore to make sure they're not contradicting themselves, the faster they can release the game. You're allowed to ship a game full of plot holes, but not with missing textures or glitchy gameplay. It's obvious where BioWare is putting their budget. We already did it for them and they have known it since ME2. This decision was likely made by a focus group because "we need to appeal more to the shooter crowd" even tho the shooter crowd is used to cool down weapons already
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Post by 10k on Dec 2, 2016 2:52:03 GMT
I already knew this, I only stated my opinion on the matter. But thanks for pointing out the obvious With 'Wow screwing up the lore even further' It didn't seem that you were just stating your opinion on the matter, but criticizing the choice of going for the ammo. I saw it right after. I wasn't going to delete my post.
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 2, 2016 4:53:21 GMT
Having now watched gameplay trailer, I noticed something that's likely relevant. As I commented earlier, in response to theflyingzamboni's speculation, it seemed likely that it was actually ammo powers that were changed, and not ammunition. Head to exactly 3:00 of the video and pause. Notice the radial menu. Ammo selection is evident. It appears to be Disruptor and Incendiary Ammo, but the types are irrelevant. The important part is the counter above each type. It seems that these might no longer be powers, but equipment that must be replenished.
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Post by CHRrOME on Dec 2, 2016 16:02:32 GMT
Personally, I like the idea of ammo better than thermal clips the are mechanically suspiciously similar to ammo just so all the shooter fanatics could reload every enemy or two they kill. It was a stupid contrivance that didn't make sense. And in actuality, shooting larger projectiles would make more sense on many different levels anyway, than shooting miniature grains of metal. 1. Penetration and over penetration: When shooting grains of sandy metal at extreme velocities, there's a good chance that if you hit someone without armor the shot will over-penetrate and hit others behind your target, even today smaller yet faster projectiles are known for over penetration. Conversely, against armor, a small grain might not be enough in order to penetrate, because the friction might cause it to simply burn out, which would probably be rather easy to deal with if you have any sort of ablative armor. 2. Stopping power: Shooting organics with grain sized projectile, will not be sufficient when it comes to stopping power, due (again) to extreme penetration but a rather limited internal area that is affected by the projectile and the smaller hydro-static shock it will create. (it will simply pass through a tiny tunnel, while causing minimal damage if not directly hitting something extremely important) 3. Ammo "mods": When shooting grain sized ammo, how do you explain explosive ammo, or other mods which by all logic should demand a larger projectile than a sand particle? All in all, actual ammo makes more sense. Bullets shot through a mass accelerator will still have higher velocity than today's gun, and will make more sense over all. If we dive into the "science" behind it, we'll discover there's no much science really in this regard. The projectiles will surely just disintegrate as soon as they hit something if they didn't already when they left the barrel... The friction with the air itself will cook that tiny piece of metal. The way I see it, it was just a cool hypothetical mechanic for a gun (cooldown system). It's probably an advantage to have a gun that can fire a lot with a single metal block as ammunition over a gun that needs magazines or something on those lines. It's also probably much lighter and virtually no cumbersome for the wielder.
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Post by CHRrOME on Dec 2, 2016 16:08:41 GMT
Having now watched gameplay trailer, I noticed something that's likely relevant. As I commented earlier, in response to theflyingzamboni 's speculation, it seemed likely that it was actually ammo powers that were changed, and not ammunition. Head to exactly 3:00 of the video and pause. Notice the radial menu. Ammo selection is evident. It appears to be Disruptor and Incendiary Ammo, but the types are irrelevant. The important part is the counter above each type. It seems that these might no longer be powers, but equipment that must be replenished. Going to promote a lil bit here my own images: First pic is the type of ammo, it seems to be a finite resource. I'm not sure if you pick that on the field or you have to craft it (the trailer shows that ammo can be crafted). Second pic talks about "refilling ammo" that could be an oversimplification over saying "replenish your thermal clips" because the newbs are gonna be "the fuck is a thermal clip?", or it could really be ammunition as we know it today. And it says "power cells" could that be the resource for the special ammo? (incendiary and so forth).
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 2, 2016 16:21:01 GMT
Having now watched gameplay trailer, I noticed something that's likely relevant. As I commented earlier, in response to theflyingzamboni 's speculation, it seemed likely that it was actually ammo powers that were changed, and not ammunition. Head to exactly 3:00 of the video and pause. Notice the radial menu. Ammo selection is evident. It appears to be Disruptor and Incendiary Ammo, but the types are irrelevant. The important part is the counter above each type. It seems that these might no longer be powers, but equipment that must be replenished. Going to promote a lil bit here my own images: First pic is the type of ammo, it seems to be a finite resource. I'm not sure if you pick that on the field or you have to craft it (the trailer shows that ammo can be crafted). Second pic talks about "refilling ammo" that could be an oversimplification over saying "replenish your thermal clips" because the newbs are gonna be "the fuck is a thermal clip?", or it could really be ammunition as we know it today. And it says "power cells" could that be the resource for the special ammo? (incendiary and so forth). Nice! I was watching a crappy stream/copy until very late last night, so I missed most of the text. Power Cells are "ammo" for heavy weapons in ME2, so maybe those make a return.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 2, 2016 16:21:05 GMT
First pic is the type of ammo, it seems to be a finite resource. I'm not sure if you pick that on the field or you have to craft it (the trailer shows that ammo can be crafted). Second pic talks about "refilling ammo" that could be an oversimplification over saying "replenish your thermal clips" because the newbs are gonna be "the fuck is a thermal clip?", or it could really be ammunition as we know it today. And it says "power cells" could that be the resource for the special ammo? (incendiary and so forth). In ME2 "power cells" were what fueled the heavy weapons: the particle beam, the flame thrower, Cain, etc. edit:
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Post by CHRrOME on Dec 2, 2016 16:27:48 GMT
I was certain that in ME2 they where called "heavy weapons ammo" Pretty generic I know. Anyways, it makes sense I suppose.
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Post by Cyonan on Dec 2, 2016 18:06:39 GMT
Soooooo let me get this straight. We send people in another galaxy to fend off for themselves and we give them weapons that rely on finite ammo as opposed to weapons that could technically fire indefinitely. Why? Did they think "hey, I am not sure their lives are going to be challenged enough, let us saddle with having to manufacture and carry around ammo and/or clips going BACKWARD in out tech progress" It makes even LESS sense NOW than when they did it in ME2. Well one of the devs did post on the first page of this thread confirming that they are actually using thermal clips and that the term ammo is just the short hand name that the devs refer to thermal clips as. Which even people in previous Mass Effect games have referred to it as ammo since functionally, it's basically the same thing. Even if we accept this as 100% true for the sake of argument, this change isn't going to make them any money either. Snark aside, the less time they spend having to go back and double-check the lore to make sure they're not contradicting themselves, the faster they can release the game. You're allowed to ship a game full of plot holes, but not with missing textures or glitchy gameplay. It's obvious where BioWare is putting their budget. That's really not how it works. More often it's that they're aware of the plot hole but they either think it's too minor to care about for the sake of better gameplay mechanics or they feel they need to retcon it for the sake of the story they're writing. Though it's all moot now in the context of this thread since BioWare has confirmed that they're still using thermal clips.
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Post by dropzofcrimzon on Dec 2, 2016 18:41:50 GMT
Soooooo let me get this straight. We send people in another galaxy to fend off for themselves and we give them weapons that rely on finite ammo as opposed to weapons that could technically fire indefinitely. Why? Did they think "hey, I am not sure their lives are going to be challenged enough, let us saddle with having to manufacture and carry around ammo and/or clips going BACKWARD in out tech progress" It makes even LESS sense NOW than when they did it in ME2. Well one of the devs did post on the first page of this thread confirming that they are actually using thermal clips and that the term ammo is just the short hand name that the devs refer to thermal clips as. Which even people in previous Mass Effect games have referred to it as ammo since functionally, it's basically the same thing. Snark aside, the less time they spend having to go back and double-check the lore to make sure they're not contradicting themselves, the faster they can release the game. You're allowed to ship a game full of plot holes, but not with missing textures or glitchy gameplay. It's obvious where BioWare is putting their budget. That's really not how it works. More often it's that they're aware of the plot hole but they either think it's too minor to care about for the sake of better gameplay mechanics or they feel they need to retcon it for the sake of the story they're writing. Though it's all moot now in the context of this thread since BioWare has confirmed that they're still using thermal clips. dude....its the same idea, one weapon can fire virtually forever the other cannot once you deplete the thermal clips...see my point?
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Post by Cyonan on Dec 2, 2016 20:50:54 GMT
dude....its the same idea, one weapon can fire virtually forever the other cannot once you deplete the thermal clips...see my point?[/quote] The actual lore behind it makes some sense because the weapons in Mass Effect 1 can't fire forever. They can become very efficient, but you also have to keep in mind that it would be exceedingly expensive to equip every soldier with 2x Frictionless Materials which is assuming that is a lore thing and not purely a game mechanic(as ME1 has its share of things that break lore but exist purely to be a game mechanic). On top of that guns in all 3 Mass Effect games do technically run out of ammo, it's just not a game mechanic. Guns in Mass Effect shave small bits of metal off a block which is typically replaced in between missions. You just don't ever see this happening in Mass Effect, but it is mentioned in the codex and you would eventually run out if you didn't replace those blocks of metal. With thermal clips you could instantly cool a gun off allowing for much more shots to be fired in a short time span. The problem with the gameplay mechanic implementation of it was that the guns don't naturally cool down if you don't reload which functionally makes them identical to conventional ammo(however again, that might just be a purely gameplay mechanic and not part of the lore). That could be fixed by allowing guns to cool down when you aren't firing them. It could be balanced to be a low rate of regaining shots, explained away in the lore by saying that the need for the thermal clips to be disposable has made it so that they don't dissipate heat nearly as well as they used to.
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Post by dropzofcrimzon on Dec 2, 2016 22:44:21 GMT
dude....its the same idea, one weapon can fire virtually forever the other cannot once you deplete the thermal clips...see my point? The actual lore behind it makes some sense because the weapons in Mass Effect 1 can't fire forever. They can become very efficient, but you also have to keep in mind that it would be exceedingly expensive to equip every soldier with 2x Frictionless Materials which is assuming that is a lore thing and not purely a game mechanic(as ME1 has its share of things that break lore but exist purely to be a game mechanic). On top of that guns in all 3 Mass Effect games do technically run out of ammo, it's just not a game mechanic. Guns in Mass Effect shave small bits of metal off a block which is typically replaced in between missions. You just don't ever see this happening in Mass Effect, but it is mentioned in the codex and you would eventually run out if you didn't replace those blocks of metal. With thermal clips you could instantly cool a gun off allowing for much more shots to be fired in a short time span. The problem with the gameplay mechanic implementation of it was that the guns don't naturally cool down if you don't reload which functionally makes them identical to conventional ammo(however again, that might just be a purely gameplay mechanic and not part of the lore). That could be fixed by allowing guns to cool down when you aren't firing them. It could be balanced to be a low rate of regaining shots, explained away in the lore by saying that the need for the thermal clips to be disposable has made it so that they don't dissipate heat nearly as well as they used to.[/quote] dude I know the lore. If you read it one block of metal used for ammo supply can last a really REALLY long time. Even without frictionless materials those guns CAN fire for that long without running out of ammo as long as the soldier makes sure not to overheat the gun and even then after cool down the gun can fire again. Once you run our of thermal clips tho YOU ARE DONE. That is it. Out on the freaking frontier, with scarce resource with NO IN LORE ADVANTAGE to use thermal clips besides being able to push more bullets down the line without having to time yourself which weapon do you think ANYONE would pick to take with them? Why would ANYONE want to use a series of weapons that require additional logistics and supply lines and production lines to be effective?
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Post by CHRrOME on Dec 3, 2016 0:05:41 GMT
I don't really disagree, but lets break it in two: The original idea of guns that you could shoot almost without worrying about ammo was and only managing heat was interesting, and at least somewhat original. However, when the original idea was sacrificed in favor of constant reloading, I'd argue that you may as well get rid of the entire concept. Why? Because the thermal clips idea is dumb and contrived as all hell, replacing the reliability of the old systems even for a little bit more fire power simply isn't worth it. If you *really* need to have players collecting ammo and reloading all the time, you might as well go back to regular ammo, because it provides you with much better reasoning and logic to have the constant reloading and collecting, than the thermal clips idea. The carelessness towards the internal logic of the ME lore and the unwillingness to go the extra few meters to provide explanations that make more sense are simply annoying. Indeed. I mean they created this cool concept, science fiction or not. But then replaced it with a more "trendy" concept of the typical ammunition to appeal the masses and portray the game like a modern shooter (Mass Effect 2). The logic behind this "upgrade" was really dumb lore wise, too. Like, why do I need to contain the heat inside this little cylinder instead of venting it like before? How's that safer? They could just say that these new clips had the ammunition block inside, and then each weapon did the managing about how to "cut" it and how big the "bullets" had to be. This way freeing more space inside the body of the weapons themselves that could be used by a bigger mass generator to impulse the projectiles faster, increasing the performance or something.
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