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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Nov 30, 2016 3:28:45 GMT
Penny Arcade Post from Chris L'Etoile 2007 This was posted while ME1 was hot and new. L'Etoile regularly posted there under the name Stormwaltz. You can still search his user tag on the site and find all his comments until the launch of ME2 when he stopped appearing. He left BioWare in august 2009 to work with ZeniMax on whatever was being made at the time and then other stuff. Brief Bios for those who don't know this guy: He was mainly responsible for... well, all the fact-checking mostly, and several of the most memorable characters in ME1 and 2. I'm sure the other writers did fact-checking too, but this is the guy who wrote all codex entries and knew off the top of his hat the minutiae, right down to the timeline and history of multiple important events outside of the main critical path. He wrote Ashley, Legion and EDI... and Thane plus side-missions and more in ME1 and ME2. Moving on, here's the quote I wanted to bring up in his reaction to the somewhat negative reaction to Ashley's character in ME1: I hadn't thought about it to the same detail, but I've always felt people overreacted about Ashley's xenophobia and were largely missing the point of her character. A few of Chris's comments just confirms most of it was intentional. He does show regret that he could've communicated better how she wasn't just a straight up racist though.
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Post by aoibhealfae on Nov 30, 2016 3:42:16 GMT
It does go both ways, the aliens have healthy xenophobia too especially with what they considered as lesser races.
But I drew a line with slavery, genocide and racial oppression. I find its somewhat appalling how that was considered less racist to some people.. jeez... culture shock 101
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Nov 30, 2016 3:43:33 GMT
She makes a comment how all aliens look a like. Shows complete distrust of them when Shepard recruits them. Bring up the metaphor of her more then willing to kill other races to save her own.
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck. Then it is a duck.
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Post by Sondergaard on Nov 30, 2016 10:37:45 GMT
'Anyway. I fully expected some people write her off as a bigot. What surprises me is that no one's pointed out that her position does have some sense. Evidently, I did something very wrong here.' He's too hard on himself. I never considered Ashley a bigot. Rough edges and common sense are what I always got from her. Always thought it was brave of them to have a character who took that approach rather than another xenophile.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2016 12:43:49 GMT
I found the whole racism thing in ME pretty wishy washy. It didn't really add anything in the way of actual edge to Ashley's character or make her a more interesting character. It would trigger some people who were more sensitive to such issues but was really kind of pointless, IMO.
I particularly found the bear and dog metaphor to be a somewhat childish justification for being insubordinate to one's commander.
She is the only straight female human in ME1 and I'm not into bestiality (i.e. cross-species sexual relations). Aliens make great friends and companions in the game, but my Shepards are just not sexually turned on by anything that isn't human... so my male Sheps usually do wind up romancing her. I like that, in ME1, Shepard can talk about some additional personal things with her - like poetry and religion... which makes her just a little more interesting than Liara; I also feel that L'Etoile just really didn't have the guts to go anyplace substantial with those topics either. He would just "tease" the idea and then drop it entirely. Ashley would also make a lot of really useless (i.e. meaningless) comments (OP - per our discussion on another thread)... like daring Kaidan to spit over the side or telling Shepard her eyeballs had dried out on Therum. "What are those, cherry trees?"
Overall, I found Jack to be a much edgier and interesting character. I'm not sure who wrote her though.
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Post by javeart on Nov 30, 2016 13:20:22 GMT
(...) Overall, I found Jack to be a much edgier and interesting character. I'm not sure who wrote her though. My memory it's not very reliable, but I think it was weekes? I love Jack too, btw, I find her a little bit of a cliche, but a great example that cliches sometimes work wonderfully
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Post by dmc1001 on Nov 30, 2016 14:00:12 GMT
She is the only straight female human in ME1 and I'm not into bestiality (i.e. cross-species sexual relations). This is in line with Ashley's thinking: Can't tell the aliens from the animals.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2016 14:38:08 GMT
She is the only straight female human in ME1 and I'm not into bestiality (i.e. cross-species sexual relations). This is in line with Ashley's thinking: Can't tell the aliens from the animals. I disagree... it's recognizing that sexual relations are species specific regardless of sapience. It's quite possible for my Shepard to absolute;y trust the aliens with Normandy's technology and trust them to be allies and good friends. He/she wouldn't sic his/her dog on a bear and run, but neither would he/she screw the pooch. (He/she would use bear spray on the bear.) He/she also wouldn't likely trust his/her dog to callibrate guns or make repairs to drive cores, etc. He/she would also feel much like the dog probably does when such sapient aliens take a sexual interest in humans. (In some countries, bestiality is considered to be a form of animal abuse... and I agree with that stance since it is unlikely that they derive the same sense of enjoyment out of it as the bestialist human does.) So, I used the term "bestiality" because IRL terms the only cross-species on earth people can have sex with are animals so our language doesn't really have a term suitable for alien sexual relationships yet. I'm saying he/she just wouldn't have sex with an alien because his/her sex drive/desire is geared towards other humans. It's the pretty much the same as a straight human is not being sexually aroused by a human of the same gender or a gay/lesbian human not being sexually aroused by a human of the opposing gender. Everyone is entitled to have sexual preferences.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2016 14:55:05 GMT
There were quite a few chats between Ashley and Tali that makes her actually likable, specifically because she is not rigid. So, I have no problems with her in that respect, and I like that her story and opinions make sense, go together, she has a room for growth, etc.
I actually really wanted to romance Ashley on my play-through as a male Shepard, and it was the other things about her that made me as a player uncomfortable with seeing the romance through.
The nickname she gives Shepard, "skipper" just irritates me. It is an idiotic ESL thing, but it sounds offensive to me. I understand it is supposed to be endearing, and knock him down a few pegs, but it just sounds off to me.
And, well, I was put off by her having a bunch of sisters she gossips with and, when she said she believes in God, well, she is everything that makes me very uncomfortable & very awkward. I understand that for a lot of people it is extremely attractive and ideal, and I respect big loving families, and faith when it is sincere, but it is something peculiary more alien to me than Liara's blue tentacles.
In the whole Trilogy, for me, Ashley and James are the two least relatable characters.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Nov 30, 2016 15:57:46 GMT
I found the whole racism thing in ME pretty wishy washy. It didn't really add anything in the way of actual edge to Ashley's character or make her a more interesting character. It would trigger some people who were more sensitive to such issues but was really kind of pointless, IMO. I particularly found the bear and dog metaphor to be a somewhat childish justification for being insubordinate to one's commander. She is the only straight female human in ME1 and I'm not into bestiality (i.e. cross-species sexual relations). Aliens make great friends and companions in the game, but my Shepards are just not sexually turned on by anything that isn't human... so my male Sheps usually do wind up romancing her. I like that, in ME1, Shepard can talk about some additional personal things with her - like poetry and religion... which makes her just a little more interesting than Liara; I also feel that L'Etoile just really didn't have the guts to go anyplace substantial with those topics either. He would just "tease" the idea and then drop it entirely. Ashley would also make a lot of really useless (i.e. meaningless) comments (OP - per our discussion on another thread)... like daring Kaidan to spit over the side or telling Shepard her eyeballs had dried out on Therum. "What are those, cherry trees?" Overall, I found Jack to be a much edgier and interesting character. I'm not sure who wrote her though. I personally thought the bigotry is what embodied a lot of Ashley's character as a narrative device. Without her I wouldn't have felt a need to distinguish between humans and aliens as much, but it was important to me to have characters in the game that show signs they've not yet accepted the world as it is, and she continually questions whether humans should gel with aliens or whether God is dead just because we've crossed the heavens. Without that I wouldn't have stopped up to think about such things, even as much as I don't agree with her bigoted viewpoints at all. Her analogies about dogs or animals to aliens is definitely a "wtf?" moment, but that's great. It makes sense to me that not all humans would be okay with aliens just as it makes sense to me that there are still people in 2016 who have racist thoughts. I'm just thankful they didn't sugarcoat humanity vs aliens completely. But really, L'Etoile should've made an arc out of it. Unfortunately she's gone in ME2 and in ME3 she got assassinated by Chris Hepler who also assassinated EDI and Emily Wong he killed on twitter.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2016 16:17:18 GMT
I found the whole racism thing in ME pretty wishy washy. It didn't really add anything in the way of actual edge to Ashley's character or make her a more interesting character. It would trigger some people who were more sensitive to such issues but was really kind of pointless, IMO. I particularly found the bear and dog metaphor to be a somewhat childish justification for being insubordinate to one's commander. She is the only straight female human in ME1 and I'm not into bestiality (i.e. cross-species sexual relations). Aliens make great friends and companions in the game, but my Shepards are just not sexually turned on by anything that isn't human... so my male Sheps usually do wind up romancing her. I like that, in ME1, Shepard can talk about some additional personal things with her - like poetry and religion... which makes her just a little more interesting than Liara; I also feel that L'Etoile just really didn't have the guts to go anyplace substantial with those topics either. He would just "tease" the idea and then drop it entirely. Ashley would also make a lot of really useless (i.e. meaningless) comments (OP - per our discussion on another thread)... like daring Kaidan to spit over the side or telling Shepard her eyeballs had dried out on Therum. "What are those, cherry trees?" Overall, I found Jack to be a much edgier and interesting character. I'm not sure who wrote her though. I personally thought the bigotry is what embodied a lot of Ashley's character as a narrative device. Without her I wouldn't have felt a need to distinguish between humans and aliens as much, but it was important to me to have characters in the game that show signs they've not yet accepted the world as it is, and she continually questions whether humans should gel with aliens or whether God is dead just because we've crossed the heavens. Without that I wouldn't have stopped up to think about such things, even as much as I don't agree with her bigoted viewpoints at all. Her analogies about dogs or animals to aliens is definitely a "wtf?" moment, but that's great. It makes sense to me that not all humans would be okay with aliens just as it makes sense to me that there are still people in 2016 who have racist thoughts. I'm just thankful they didn't sugarcoat humanity vs aliens completely. But really, L'Etoile should've made an arc out of it. Unfortunately she's gone in ME2 and in ME3 she got assassinated by Chris Hepler who also assassinated EDI and Emily Wong he killed on twitter. Believe me, I know you absolutely idolize L'Etoile. I don't. His writing was OK, but far from the perfection you keep putting into it. I stand by what I said earlier about Ashley's characterization.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Nov 30, 2016 16:17:44 GMT
I hadn't thought about it to the same detail, but I've always felt people overreacted about Ashley's xenophobia and were largely missing the point of her character. A few of Chris's comments just confirms most of it was intentional. He does show regret that he could've communicated better how she wasn't just a straight up racist though. Too little too late vindication (both he and we have left BioWare under various levels of compulsion), but "ermagherd racism" never even crossed my mind when I first romanced Ashley. If I could've talked to him back then I definitely would've told him to stay the course. She makes a comment how all aliens look a like. Shows complete distrust of them when Shepard recruits them. Bring up the metaphor of her more then willing to kill other races to save her own. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck. Then it is a duck. Typical. Did you even read the quote? Everything she says is perfectly in line with what L'Etoile said and what actually is. We don't have aliens IRL but your own species > any other species if it really came down to it. It's biology. The extra conviction is bitterness over her family history and you can talk her straight on that front. Also, distrust =/= racism, get that PC stick out of your ass. Why not switch that around? How many mixed crews on alien ships do you see or hear about, in the entirety of the trilogy? The only one specific example of someone putting together a team like Shepard does is Garrus as Archangel. Oh and I guess Omega, the big gangs, the Shadow Broker and various nameless merc bands. But everyone that's respectable though must be racist. And the line wasn't "all aliens look alike" but rather "I can't tell the aliens from the monsters" or (was it animals?) How many aliens has she seen up to that point, being posted in backwater shit jobs? Probably a picture of a turian, if she's lucky. Not the most diplomatic, granted, but not racist. And kind of tongue in cheek from a a meta perspective as the ME aliens are mostly animal based. Turians=birds, salarians=frogs, krogan=reptiles/dinosaurs and so on. I disagree... it's recognizing that sexual relations are species specific regardless of sapience. It's quite possible for my Shepard to absolute;y trust the aliens with Normandy's technology and trust them to be allies and good friends. He/she wouldn't sic his/her dog on a bear and run, but neither would he/she screw the pooch. (He/she would use bear spray on the bear.) He/she also wouldn't likely trust his/her dog to callibrate guns or make repairs to drive cores, etc. Missing the point of the metaphor. The point was if you had to choose between you (or a member of your species, or your species as a whole) vs an alien (or the equivalent terms) you would choose your own kind. Taking a third option is evading the question, not dealing with it. If you can take a third option, obviously you would, unless you're a dick but whether one is a dick or not was not the point of the discussion. There's also no equivalency implied. She doesn't say aliens are dogs so "but dogs can't calibrate" is not a fitting rebuttal. On the attraction to other species, I would agree only up to a point. If one is sexually attracted to a creature wildly different from their own, I can see where the bestiality comparisons might come in. But in the case of the asari, I don't think it counts. Implausibility aside, they are for all intents and purposes blue women with tentacle like things instead of hair. Hair is one factor of sexual attraction but a pretty minor one. Physiologically asari and humans are compatible and they have (almost) all the features a human would identify as sexually interesting. So I don't think that would be qualified as the same sort of phenomena as bestiality.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Nov 30, 2016 16:27:44 GMT
I do idolize L'Etoile. He was a fantastic asset due to his extreme attention to detail on hard sci-fi elements. I don't however consider his writing perfect, just evocative in ways some of the other writers simply don't (not all, just some) CrutchCricket Exactly. The fact that she hadn't even seen the Citadel before you do in ME1 says something about what mindset she may have come from. All her encounters with aliens came from jobs on worlds that most likely weren't populated by them and her sparse encounters made her reserved towards them, and it all roots back to how her father was a frontline man in the First Contact war, so she's, like most children, biased by her legacy and their viewpoints. Many children of leftist parents become leftists themselves. It's not a guarantee but there is social heritage that matters because people look up to their parents -- that's where Ashley is coming from but oh so many players took it with ignorance of these facts and felt "Oh, BioWare made a racist character, fuck her!" If you read into who Ashley really is you'll understand her and know that she doesn't know better. She's an alien tsundere, and she comes to think of Tali as her sister later. It's pretty evident she's so critical of aliens at first because she's trying to hold on to her principles and the bias she has from her dad. And I should probably give Hepler more credit as well, I thought some of his writing of her and other L'Etoile characters in ME3 was garbage, but at least he kept the poetry and acknowledgment of her past views to some extent. My favorite characters as i played ME1 and ME2 back in 2010-2011 before ME3 came out were all L'Etoile characters. Ashley, Thane and Legion. Conversations with these characters sparked my imagination because I didn't completely agree with their views or even the writing of those views, but it triggered some kind of discomfort in me that left a lasting impression. I didn't even realize that there was more than one writer back then, and that says something about how much I understood of making a video game like Mass Effect at the time. Ashley saying "Is it a problem that I believe in god" made me dumbfounded at first. Thane posing the question about whether gun being responsible when it shoots its victim made me go "No, of course not!" but it was outside the box thinking, and I appreciate it. Legion also made the Geth interesting whereas I didn't even care before and then he became pinnochio Jesus in ME3. What a slap in the face.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Nov 30, 2016 19:29:06 GMT
She makes a comment how all aliens look a like. Shows complete distrust of them when Shepard recruits them. Bring up the metaphor of her more then willing to kill other races to save her own. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck. Then it is a duck. Typical. Did you even read the quote? Everything she says is perfectly in line with what L'Etoile said and what actually is. We don't have aliens IRL but your own species > any other species if it really came down to it. It's biology. The extra conviction is bitterness over her family history and you can talk her straight on that front. Also, distrust =/= racism, get that PC stick out of your ass. Why not switch that around? How many mixed crews on alien ships do you see or hear about, in the entirety of the trilogy? The only one specific example of someone putting together a team like Shepard does is Garrus as Archangel. Oh and I guess Omega, the big gangs, the Shadow Broker and various nameless merc bands. But everyone that's respectable though must be racist. And the line wasn't "all aliens look alike" but rather "I can't tell the aliens from the monsters" or (was it animals?) How many aliens has she seen up to that point, being posted in backwater shit jobs? Probably a picture of a turian, if she's lucky. Not the most diplomatic, granted, but not racist. And kind of tongue in cheek from a a meta perspective as the ME aliens are mostly animal based. Turians=birds, salarians=frogs, krogan=reptiles/dinosaurs and so on. During Rachni Wars the Asari, Salarians and Krogan stood together. During Krogan rebellion caused by the Krogan uncontrollable breeding and attempting to forcibly take worlds from other races the Asari, Salarian and later Turians stood together rather then feeding one race to the sharks for the others to survive. Strike One. Distrusting a group because they are not the same as you is a fair definition of racism. I can't trust you because your black. I can't trust you because your white. I can't trust you because your Jewish. I can't trust you because your Christian. In fact the complete lack of trust during WW2 lead to the Japanese internment camps were entire families who were first or second generation from Japan were rounded up and forced into camps. Is that not racist? Or how about a more recent set up? Can't trust Muslims at all. We should round them up and put them in special areas and prevent them from being allowed to come over. Because we just can't trust them not to do something terrorist related. Just like how Ash can't trust the Turians not to do something shady to the Alliance. Yea historically speaking pirates and merc bands have been the most open of groups. They tend not to care about where you came from or what race you are. Simply if you are capable of doing what is needed. Hence why when Slavery was still practiced during the golden age of piracy. Many pirate ships had people of all races and gender working on them in all sorts of positions. They might have shot, stabbed, sank and robbed for a living but they were down right progressive on a lot of social issues. Strike Two The line is I can't tell the aliens from the animals. And that has a long history of heavily racist over tones. Black people and apes anyone? Comparing any group that wasn't a developed nation from Europe to be savages barely better then animals. You know the kind of stupid shit racists today still spout. Strike Three If it was intended for her to be portrayed another way then the way he went about it was done in the most tone deaf way possible. That not only doesn't fit with lore of the game but has reactions and statements that fit coming from a racists mouths without much trouble.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Nov 30, 2016 23:44:55 GMT
During Rachni Wars the Asari, Salarians and Krogan stood together. During Krogan rebellion caused by the Krogan uncontrollable breeding and attempting to forcibly take worlds from other races the Asari, Salarian and later Turians stood together rather then feeding one race to the sharks for the others to survive. Strike One. Distrusting a group because they are not the same as you is a fair definition of racism. I can't trust you because your black. I can't trust you because your white. I can't trust you because your Jewish. I can't trust you because your Christian. In fact the complete lack of trust during WW2 lead to the Japanese internment camps were entire families who were first or second generation from Japan were rounded up and forced into camps. Is that not racist? Or how about a more recent set up? Can't trust Muslims at all. We should round them up and put them in special areas and prevent them from being allowed to come over. Because we just can't trust them not to do something terrorist related. Just like how Ash can't trust the Turians not to do something shady to the Alliance. Yea historically speaking pirates and merc bands have been the most open of groups. They tend not to care about where you came from or what race you are. Simply if you are capable of doing what is needed. Hence why when Slavery was still practiced during the golden age of piracy. Many pirate ships had people of all races and gender working on them in all sorts of positions. They might have shot, stabbed, sank and robbed for a living but they were down right progressive on a lot of social issues. Strike Two The line is I can't tell the aliens from the animals. And that has a long history of heavily racist over tones. Black people and apes anyone? Comparing any group that wasn't a developed nation from Europe to be savages barely better then animals. You know the kind of stupid shit racists today still spout. Strike Three If it was intended for her to be portrayed another way then the way he went about it was done in the most tone deaf way possible. That not only doesn't fit with lore of the game but has reactions and statements that fit coming from a racists mouths without much trouble. Cute, but as usual, has almost nothing to do with the point, which was never, let's throw other races under the bus for a larf, but rather, if you could only save one, your own or an alien, you would naturally save your own. And speaking of Krogan Rebellions, what was the breaking point? Lusia, an asari colony. Asari who more or less have lead the Council since its inception. On the flip side who gives a shit about human colonies being abducted in ME2? Nobody but humans. Earlier than that, what was the council's initial response to Eden Prime? Fuck you, do it yourself, that's what. Who gave a shit about the quarians when they got exiled and spent the next three centuries wandering around, a major accident away from extinction? Nobody. Who called out Shepard for the destruction of Aratoht? Nobody but the batarians, we got dead silence from the council and the Alliance explicitly only going along for the politics. And, oh, oh!!! When did the asari finally get off their ass and join the war in ME3? Once their worlds were finally hit. What was their tag line all throughout the rest of it? "We must protect our own worlds first, durr". Come to think of it, that was everyone's line. Even the turians, had to help relieve them because they wouldn't leave Palaven over you. The krogan wouldn't help you until they secured their interests. The salarians got butthurt because they couldn't secure theirs. The geth/quarians did precisely dick for the war until their own scuffle was resolved. Even we were all like "save Earth, gotta save Earth herpaderp Citadel? The fight's here!" But yeah, sure. Ashley's racist because she'd save a human over an alien. I can't trust you because you're literally a fundamentally different species from me (at least in theory). Or I can't trust you because in this setting the alien races are national analogues. I can't trust you because you're Russian is not racist, it's prudent if you're not quite sure where you stand. Even if you're confirmed allies, I'm pretty sure one country doesn't let nationals from another just stroll through their top secret facilities on a whim. Ashley's comments were in regards to aliens on the bridge/in the CIC/ in the engine room etc. getting a look at top secret human development*. I don't have immediate proof but I'd be shocked if even a Canadian officer can just jump into a US missile sub and hang out. These concerns are reiterated by both Pressley and Admiral Mihailovitch by the way. But I'm sure they're racist too. Actually, out of the three of those, Pressley is the more racist one as he doesn't frame his remarks from that practical standpoint and later recants them- thought that whole thing seems token now in retrospect, and totally Hallmark. "Oh those dang aliens, I don't know" grumble, grumble to "you bleed (almost the same as me) time to drink together". It's a stereotype more than a real look at the issue. *though ironically, most of the aliens remain in the holds, Liara's in medbay and only Tali has access to a critical spot- what does that tell you? Hell even in ME2, Cerberus ship, only Tali and Garrus are stationed in critical spots, and Garrus is semi-justified since it was turians that reverse engineered the Thanix so no new intel there. Oh and Legion of course which is full retard for other reasons. And let me think, ME3, yep again just Tali. Liara pretty much made her own critical spot which is arguably more important than the whole of Normandy.
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Post by Vortex13 on Dec 1, 2016 0:14:46 GMT
I enjoyed L'Etoile's writing of the Rachni, (ME 2) Geth, the Thorian, and the Hanar & Elcor a bit more than his work with Ashely and Thane to be honest; just personal preferences there.
It was rather telling though that as soon as Chris left BioWare all of those uniquely 'alien' creations he was in charge of were quickly swept under the rug, made into joke races, or turned into Pinocchio bots. Compare Mass Effect with L'Etiole on the team to it without and it quickly becomes rather obvious that the rest of the writing team didn't really know how to write for a more 'alien' universe.
Sure, his take on aliens like the Rachni and the Geth aren't the deepest form of science fiction writing compared to several hard sci-fi novels out there; but it was certainly miles ahead of the Blasto memes, and Pinocchio/Commander Data rip-offs we got when he left.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2016 0:30:45 GMT
I hadn't thought about it to the same detail, but I've always felt people overreacted about Ashley's xenophobia and were largely missing the point of her character. A few of Chris's comments just confirms most of it was intentional. He does show regret that he could've communicated better how she wasn't just a straight up racist though. Too little too late vindication (both he and we have left BioWare under various levels of compulsion), but "ermagherd racism" never even crossed my mind when I first romanced Ashley. If I could've talked to him back then I definitely would've told him to stay the course. She makes a comment how all aliens look a like. Shows complete distrust of them when Shepard recruits them. Bring up the metaphor of her more then willing to kill other races to save her own. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck. Then it is a duck. Typical. Did you even read the quote? Everything she says is perfectly in line with what L'Etoile said and what actually is. We don't have aliens IRL but your own species > any other species if it really came down to it. It's biology. The extra conviction is bitterness over her family history and you can talk her straight on that front. Also, distrust =/= racism, get that PC stick out of your ass. Why not switch that around? How many mixed crews on alien ships do you see or hear about, in the entirety of the trilogy? The only one specific example of someone putting together a team like Shepard does is Garrus as Archangel. Oh and I guess Omega, the big gangs, the Shadow Broker and various nameless merc bands. But everyone that's respectable though must be racist. And the line wasn't "all aliens look alike" but rather "I can't tell the aliens from the monsters" or (was it animals?) How many aliens has she seen up to that point, being posted in backwater shit jobs? Probably a picture of a turian, if she's lucky. Not the most diplomatic, granted, but not racist. And kind of tongue in cheek from a a meta perspective as the ME aliens are mostly animal based. Turians=birds, salarians=frogs, krogan=reptiles/dinosaurs and so on. I disagree... it's recognizing that sexual relations are species specific regardless of sapience. It's quite possible for my Shepard to absolute;y trust the aliens with Normandy's technology and trust them to be allies and good friends. He/she wouldn't sic his/her dog on a bear and run, but neither would he/she screw the pooch. (He/she would use bear spray on the bear.) He/she also wouldn't likely trust his/her dog to callibrate guns or make repairs to drive cores, etc. Missing the point of the metaphor. The point was if you had to choose between you (or a member of your species, or your species as a whole) vs an alien (or the equivalent terms) you would choose your own kind. Taking a third option is evading the question, not dealing with it. If you can take a third option, obviously you would, unless you're a dick but whether one is a dick or not was not the point of the discussion. There's also no equivalency implied. She doesn't say aliens are dogs so "but dogs can't calibrate" is not a fitting rebuttal. On the attraction to other species, I would agree only up to a point. If one is sexually attracted to a creature wildly different from their own, I can see where the bestiality comparisons might come in. But in the case of the asari, I don't think it counts. Implausibility aside, they are for all intents and purposes blue women with tentacle like things instead of hair. Hair is one factor of sexual attraction but a pretty minor one. Physiologically asari and humans are compatible and they have (almost) all the features a human would identify as sexually interesting. So I don't think that would be qualified as the same sort of phenomena as bestiality. You're missing my point about the way L'Etoile wrote the metaphor. It just wasn't as genius a way to delve into the question as is being presented here. It presents the sort of thinking that leads to the development of "expendable shock troops" al a Cerberus (which in the case of the metaphor is represented by the dog who you send in to fight your battles for you because deep down you think of your dog as being inferior (i.e. more expendable) than yourself). Also, IRL, anyone who has taken pet dogs off leash into bear-ridden wilderness should soon realize that a lot of dogs tend to wander off trail, scare up the bears themselves, and then come running back to you for protection. It's just not a great metaphor. As I said, IRL, I would use bear spray on the bear... and the dog would probably beat me back to camp running. As for the term "beastiality" - please give me a term in the English language then that describes humans who have sexual relations with aliens. We don't have one... the closest I could get is "beastiality" (definition - people who have sexual relations with animals). The psychology has little to do with it since the term describes the act... not the motivation behind the act. People who are sexually aroused by animals have "zoophilia."
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Dec 1, 2016 0:33:24 GMT
Kind of exactly that. His sci-fi elements even compared to Drew K shines the most though I have to give it to Mac when it comes to Wrex and to some extent the Batarians of Bring Down The Sky too I think... although, Bring Down The Sky is credited as Mac AND Chris L'Etoile so I can't really know who did what, but Batarians are very Mac Walters-y. Anything that has to do with the slums of Omega or other lowlife races is very Mac I think.
But compare the Geth of ME2 to Liara or Tali in ME1, both Drew's work according to Patrick Weekes, and they just feel kind of... dungeons and dragons roleplaying if you get my drift. But then, Samara in ME2 was much better (I think that was Drew).
Overall it definitely varies and each writer probably has good moments, but I think Chris's contribution was very, very significant and Mass Effect lost a part of itself when he left because ME3 is indeed missing something vital and races do feel more pulpy and joke-y, particularly when you consider Javik for instance. Surely someone either Drew or Chris would've told John Dombrow to tone down the caricature-ness to make it more alien-like. I thought Javik was well written if it were a marvel character or something, but I was pretty disappointed to have a live prothean like that and then he was just so ordinary but just more egocentric and arrogant than most humans.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Dec 1, 2016 1:17:47 GMT
You're missing my point about the way L'Etoile wrote the metaphor. It just wasn't as genius a way to delve into the question as is being presented here. It presents the sort of thinking that leads to the development of "expendable shock troops" al a Cerberus (which in the case of the metaphor is represented by the dog who you send in to fight your battles for you because deep down you think of your dog as being inferior (i.e. more expendable) than yourself). Also, IRL, anyone who has taken pet dogs off leash into bear-ridden wilderness should soon realize that a lot of dogs tend to wander off trail, scare up the bears themselves, and then come running back to you for protection. It's just not a great metaphor. As I said, IRL, I would use bear spray on the bear... and the dog would probably beat me back to camp running. As for the term "beastiality" - please give me a term in the English language then that describes humans who have sexual relations with aliens. We don't have one... the closest I could get is "beastiality" (definition - people who have sexual relations with animals). The psychology has little to do with it since the term describes the act... not the motivation behind the act. People who are sexually aroused by animals have "zoophilia." I disagree, and I don't really see how you can get that interpretation. Check out this video. It's biased in the wrong way (literally labeled "Ashley's a racist jerk") but it proves my point perfectly: She specifically frames it that "if their back's against the wall they'll abandon us". And the next line's the bear metaphor. "If you're fighting a bear and the only way for you to survive is to sic your dog on it and run, you'll do it. As much as you love your dog it isn't human." That's exactly in line with how I presented my point and how L'Etoile's quote in the OP refers to it. Where are you getting "expendable troops" from? There's no notion of "expandable" or "inferior", just the idea that if it comes down to pure survival and everything else has been stripped away, protecting your own will be paramount. Everything else is evading the issue, or at best picking apart the metaphor, which may not be the greatest, but that doesn't disprove the idea behind it. From the next line: "Members of their species will always be more important than humans are." Almost word for word point #1 in the quote. As to bestiality, fine we're literally arguing semantics at this point. Also protip for everyone: it's spelled bestiality. Searching "beastiality" sadly started coming up with porn links I don't even want to know about. BRB clearing search history. But anyway, though you used the terms your original point was about motivations and not roleplaying a Shepard that was attracted to aliens. If anything you should've played off zoophilia- xenophilia then? Anyway the real meat of my question was though yes, you could take a hard classification approach to it (DNA= not human=xenophilia) would it really matter in a case like the asari where all the right bits are there?
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Dec 1, 2016 1:39:53 GMT
During Rachni Wars the Asari, Salarians and Krogan stood together. During Krogan rebellion caused by the Krogan uncontrollable breeding and attempting to forcibly take worlds from other races the Asari, Salarian and later Turians stood together rather then feeding one race to the sharks for the others to survive. Strike One. Distrusting a group because they are not the same as you is a fair definition of racism. I can't trust you because your black. I can't trust you because your white. I can't trust you because your Jewish. I can't trust you because your Christian. In fact the complete lack of trust during WW2 lead to the Japanese internment camps were entire families who were first or second generation from Japan were rounded up and forced into camps. Is that not racist? Or how about a more recent set up? Can't trust Muslims at all. We should round them up and put them in special areas and prevent them from being allowed to come over. Because we just can't trust them not to do something terrorist related. Just like how Ash can't trust the Turians not to do something shady to the Alliance. Yea historically speaking pirates and merc bands have been the most open of groups. They tend not to care about where you came from or what race you are. Simply if you are capable of doing what is needed. Hence why when Slavery was still practiced during the golden age of piracy. Many pirate ships had people of all races and gender working on them in all sorts of positions. They might have shot, stabbed, sank and robbed for a living but they were down right progressive on a lot of social issues. Strike Two The line is I can't tell the aliens from the animals. And that has a long history of heavily racist over tones. Black people and apes anyone? Comparing any group that wasn't a developed nation from Europe to be savages barely better then animals. You know the kind of stupid shit racists today still spout. Strike Three If it was intended for her to be portrayed another way then the way he went about it was done in the most tone deaf way possible. That not only doesn't fit with lore of the game but has reactions and statements that fit coming from a racists mouths without much trouble. Cute, but as usual, has almost nothing to do with the point, which was never, let's throw other races under the bus for a larf, but rather, if you could only save one, your own or an alien, you would naturally save your own. And speaking of Krogan Rebellions, what was the breaking point? Lusia, an asari colony. Asari who more or less have lead the Council since its inception. On the flip side who gives a shit about human colonies being abducted in ME2? Nobody but humans. Earlier than that, what was the council's initial response to Eden Prime? Fuck you, do it yourself, that's what. Who gave a shit about the quarians when they got exiled and spent the next three centuries wandering around, a major accident away from extinction? Nobody. Who called out Shepard for the destruction of Aratoht? Nobody but the batarians, we got dead silence from the council and the Alliance explicitly only going along for the politics. And, oh, oh!!! When did the asari finally get off their ass and join the war in ME3? Once their worlds were finally hit. What was their tag line all throughout the rest of it? "We must protect our own worlds first, durr". Come to think of it, that was everyone's line. Even the turians, had to help relieve them because they wouldn't leave Palaven over you. The krogan wouldn't help you until they secured their interests. The salarians got butthurt because they couldn't secure theirs. The geth/quarians did precisely dick for the war until their own scuffle was resolved. Even we were all like "save Earth, gotta save Earth herpaderp Citadel? The fight's here!" But yeah, sure. Ashley's racist because she'd save a human over an alien. I can't trust you because you're literally a fundamentally different species from me (at least in theory). Or I can't trust you because in this setting the alien races are national analogues. I can't trust you because you're Russian is not racist, it's prudent if you're not quite sure where you stand. Even if you're confirmed allies, I'm pretty sure one country doesn't let nationals from another just stroll through their top secret facilities on a whim. Ashley's comments were in regards to aliens on the bridge/in the CIC/ in the engine room etc. getting a look at top secret human development*. I don't have immediate proof but I'd be shocked if even a Canadian officer can just jump into a US missile sub and hang out. These concerns are reiterated by both Pressley and Admiral Mihailovitch by the way. But I'm sure they're racist too. Actually, out of the three of those, Pressley is the more racist one as he doesn't frame his remarks from that practical standpoint and later recants them- thought that whole thing seems token now in retrospect, and totally Hallmark. "Oh those dang aliens, I don't know" grumble, grumble to "you bleed (almost the same as me) time to drink together". It's a stereotype more than a real look at the issue. *though ironically, most of the aliens remain in the holds, Liara's in medbay and only Tali has access to a critical spot- what does that tell you? Hell even in ME2, Cerberus ship, only Tali and Garrus are stationed in critical spots, and Garrus is semi-justified since it was turians that reverse engineered the Thanix so no new intel there. Oh and Legion of course which is full retard for other reasons. And let me think, ME3, yep again just Tali. Liara pretty much made her own critical spot which is arguably more important than the whole of Normandy. But that is exactly what the dog and the bear metaphor is. You throw the dog under the bus (AKA have it be killed by bear) to get away while bear is killing eating dog. Thus saving your own skin at the price of another. Trying to claim it means anything else is asinine. Because the entire metaphor revolves around you killing another being who isn't the same as you. To save yourself at the cost of their very life. This was said directly in context of humans and other races. If L'Etoile meant other wise then the choice of words were the stupidest possible ones to pick. Right up there with someone saying "I"m not racist but black people make up 70% of our nation's prison inmates. And white people only make up 30%." Even if the intent wasn't to be racist with the statement and just bring up a point about prison population it was done in such a stupid way that it doesn't seem out of place coming from a white supremacist ass hat using it as proof why black people are so terrible and why white people are so great. Yes the Asari reacted to an unprovoked attack on one of their colonies. And the Salarians quickly followed suit. Because the Krogan were attacking their colonies. That isn't throwing anyone under the bus that is responding to an action. As well the Human colonies that were being abducted were all out side of the Council and the Alliance's region. In an area of space that the act of moving large amount of military forces could be seen as an act of aggression kick starting a galactic war. Or to put it a more simple way a group of British Colonies moving from Virginia (1610 AD) to present day Wyoming and complaining about them not protecting them from an attack by Native Americans. When the group is so far out of their reach and control there is no way to actually protect them. Not without starting a galactic war. The Quarians threw themselves under the bus. And in the process created a galactic wide threat. Then their own biology corn holed them again. Needing very specific planet requirements to settle. To the point that they now can't even exist on their home planet without suits. I was sticking with ME 1 because that is when the line is said and the context of is is build around that game but you want to pull the trilogy into it as well? OK. Truains need Krogan because other wise all their troops will be tied up on Palivin. Meaning they can't come to aid the Alliance. Krogan need the cure to Genophage because without it the losses they will take will result in their extinction. A Dalistrass (individual) gets butt hurt over curing the genophage because they see the Krogan as mindless brutes. And wants you to sabotage it while not telling them. And equally there are several individual Salarians that support curing the Genophage and assisting Shepard regardless of what is done with Krogan. The Asari who are one of the least militaristic races don't give any help because they are trying to use their limited military assets to protect themselves and have nothing to spare. Until the Reapers take Thessia at that point they no longer have to attempt to protect their planet and can lend support to the Alliance. Because they can now spare them. In fact Liara's "father" even talks about in ME 2 about her talking to the Asari leaders on their planet telling them they need to have Asari spend their maiden years in military training and less shaking their ass in bars across the galaxy. Specifically to beef up the Asari's military potential. Which has been reduced because the Turians became the defacto peace keeping military race in the galaxy and the Salarians the espionage group. Shepard tried to warn the Batarians about the Relay but was unable to before of events of the DLC. He didn't just decide to kill the Batarians because he can because F them they aren't human. In none of these examples is it one race attempting to feed another race to the Reapers just so they can survive. The Quarian and Geth issue are an exception and the point of their story. They represent the entire Organic vs Synthetic conflict. And the point of that from the first Mass Effect game is all about the inevitable conflict and ultimately destruction of either the creators or the created at the hands of the other. Usually the created destroying the creator due to their superiority. Yes the way she is presented gives very heavy racist over tones. Stuff that an afternoon on the Mass Effect version of Wikipedia would answer. Or use what ever the extranet version of google is. The Normandy was a joint venture between Turians and Alliance. There is no secret information to exist on it that the Turians don't know about. And considering the treaty ties between Turian, Salarian and Asari odds are they know about it as well. And Shepard as the ships CO is capable of authorizing anyone to enter the ship and access were ever they want. Ash as a Gunnery Chief is out ranked by Shepard's Commander rank and the fact he is CO of the Normandy. On top of the fact he is acting as a Specter on Council orders. Which is a big dose of grey area. Which would still allow him to act as he wishes and let who ever he wants to see what ever they want on the ship. Within that context of the game yes saying they shouldn't be allowed to see stuff simply because they aren't human does come off as racist. Again part of that sounding like something out of a white supremacist mouth when not really meaning for it to come out that way.
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Post by dmc1001 on Dec 1, 2016 5:20:27 GMT
This is in line with Ashley's thinking: Can't tell the aliens from the animals. I disagree... it's recognizing that sexual relations are species specific regardless of sapience. It's quite possible for my Shepard to absolute;y trust the aliens with Normandy's technology and trust them to be allies and good friends. He/she wouldn't sic his/her dog on a bear and run, but neither would he/she screw the pooch. (He/she would use bear spray on the bear.) He/she also wouldn't likely trust his/her dog to callibrate guns or make repairs to drive cores, etc. He/she would also feel much like the dog probably does when such sapient aliens take a sexual interest in humans. (In some countries, bestiality is considered to be a form of animal abuse... and I agree with that stance since it is unlikely that they derive the same sense of enjoyment out of it as the bestialist human does.) So, I used the term "bestiality" because IRL terms the only cross-species on earth people can have sex with are animals so our language doesn't really have a term suitable for alien sexual relationships yet. I'm saying he/she just wouldn't have sex with an alien because his/her sex drive/desire is geared towards other humans. It's the pretty much the same as a straight human is not being sexually aroused by a human of the same gender or a gay/lesbian human not being sexually aroused by a human of the opposing gender. Everyone is entitled to have sexual preferences. Xenophilia is a hell of a lot closer than bestiality. In that one instance, "beast" is meant to refer to non-sentient life forms. Hence, "bestial" means "animal-like" behavior. Shepard may or may not express interest in their alien crew (Liara, Tali, Garrus, Thane, Samara and Morinth. In no case is "bestiality" suggested. Moreover, we see tons of asari/every other race relationships. Then there's Tali and Garrus. Thing about Charr writing love poems to Ereba. Now, I'm quibbling on terminology here but that's because it seems to denote a mindset (not necessarily intentionally) of aliens being "less than" in some way. Bestiality is a non-consensual act in that animals cannot give consent. Not true of sentient aliens. Nevertheless, that's still in line with what Ashley actually said. It's like animals and aliens are little different in her eyes. Sure, she can soften and change over time but she definitely held that standpoint early on. There's plenty to suggest than numerous humans feel "held back" by the aliens (despite making more gains faster than any other species in Council history), and definitely don't have any love for turians. And if you're going the gay route, it's not the unusual for anti-gay individuals to change their opinion once they know someone who is gay. Ditto for Ash.
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Post by midnightwolf on Dec 1, 2016 6:38:31 GMT
I read that the "I can't tell the aliens from the animals" line was only supposed to trigger near a Keeper. In which case, Ashley has a point. Just thought I'd mention it!
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Post by CrutchCricket on Dec 1, 2016 6:46:58 GMT
But that is exactly what the dog and the bear metaphor is. You throw the dog under the bus (AKA have it be killed by bear) to get away while bear is killing eating dog. Thus saving your own skin at the price of another. Trying to claim it means anything else is asinine. Because the entire metaphor revolves around you killing another being who isn't the same as you. To save yourself at the cost of their very life. Wrong. The point of the metaphor wasn't selfish action (sacrifice another to save yourself). The point was if it comes down to it between saving your own and not your own everybody will choose to save their own. That's not racism, that's fact. And even if the metaphor was about selfishness, that's still not racism, that's selfishness. Yes the Asari reacted to an unprovoked attack on one of their colonies. And the Salarians quickly followed suit. Because the Krogan were attacking their colonies. That isn't throwing anyone under the bus that is responding to an action. As well the Human colonies that were being abducted were all out side of the Council and the Alliance's region. In an area of space that the act of moving large amount of military forces could be seen as an act of aggression kick starting a galactic war. Missed the point again. The asari only got involved/ took serious action when it personally involved them. As for the colonies, a pitiful excuse. Did the Alliance sending the VS out to install cannons trigger a war? Why didn't we see similar efforts from other Council races? Send a few Spectres even? Because it wasn't their colonies. And what excuse do you have for Eden Prime which is within Council space, even if it is near the Traverse? The answer is simple. Every race looks out for itself first and to some extent exclusively. The Council is just a facade that's convenient to the ruling members (asari, turian, salarian). Accept this. Privately they break their own rules every other Tuesday. Asari with their hoarding, salarians with their uplifting. Turians are probably the most stand up but even they have had their underhanded dealings (Tuchanka bomb comes to mind). I was sticking with ME 1 because that is when the line is said and the context of is is build around that game but you want to pull the trilogy into it as well? OK. Truains need Krogan because other wise all their troops will be tied up on Palivin. Meaning they can't come to aid the Alliance. But why? If it's not basic fact that everyone would save their own first, why not come to the Alliance's aid? Are the turians racist? Krogan need the cure to Genophage because without it the losses they will take will result in their extinction. And if the Reapers win, they're extinct anyway. But surely they would give their lives for other species, because to not do is racist, right? A Dalistrass (individual) gets butt hurt over curing the genophage because they see the Krogan as mindless brutes. And wants you to sabotage it while not telling them. And equally there are several individual Salarians that support curing the Genophage and assisting Shepard regardless of what is done with Krogan. Funny how that never amounted to much in terms of war assets, even after I saved the Salarian councilor from Kai Leng. Dev oversight? Or salarian racism after all??? The Asari who are one of the least militaristic races don't give any help because they are trying to use their limited military assets to protect themselves and have nothing to spare. My God. They wanted to protect themselves in a time of crisis where it could be them or another species? Shepard tried to warn the Batarians about the Relay but was unable to before of events of the DLC. He didn't just decide to kill the Batarians because he can because F them they aren't human. In none of these examples is it one race attempting to feed another race to the Reapers just so they can survive. Missing the point more than a stormtrooper shooting, well, anything. No one attempted to sanction Shepard (or the Alliance, or even Cerberus) for the batarian colony other than the batarians themselves- because no one else gives a shit. Species care about themselves. Everything else is entirely optional and often misplaced. The Quarian and Geth issue are an exception and the point of their story. They represent the entire Organic vs Synthetic conflict. And the point of that from the first Mass Effect game is all about the inevitable conflict and ultimately destruction of either the creators or the created at the hands of the other. Usually the created destroying the creator due to their superiority. No, they're really not. The holokid's nonsense doesn't enter into it. Quarians and geth weren't fighting each other because "organics vs synthetics" they were fighting because "muh homeworld!" and "muh freedom!" respectively. You would think they could put that aside for the greater good (helping everyone survive against the Reapers), but no, not even them. Hell the Reapers, messed up as they are are probably the only race that doesn't collectively look out for number one. They don't discriminate and they'll sacrifice one of their own to make sure everyone is properly liquified. Of course, that dims somewhat when you find out they're just killbots. Oh well... The Normandy was a joint venture between Turians and Alliance. There is no secret information to exist on it that the Turians don't know about. And considering the treaty ties between Turian, Salarian and Asari odds are they know about it as well. And Shepard as the ships CO is capable of authorizing anyone to enter the ship and access were ever they want. Ash as a Gunnery Chief is out ranked by Shepard's Commander rank and the fact he is CO of the Normandy. On top of the fact he is acting as a Specter on Council orders. Which is a big dose of grey area. Which would still allow him to act as he wishes and let who ever he wants to see what ever they want on the ship. Within that context of the game yes saying they shouldn't be allowed to see stuff simply because they aren't human does come off as racist. Again part of that sounding like something out of a white supremacist mouth when not really meaning for it to come out that way. That's not how treaties work. And 50% of aliens onboard aren't bound by any treaty, 25% of which are routinely working in, quite possibly the most critical area of the ship. Again, (try) to go on a missile sub from a country that's not yours. Putting aside the fact that if you're a civilian (and having no military standing makes you by definition a civilian, even if you're a merc or whatever) you're not getting into even your own country's vessels. But try it. You'll wind up in jail, or worse. Now try also calling the captain racist. You'll probably get knocked on your ass and then sent to jail or worse. Sorry. You'll need to find something else to be offended by.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
ferroboy
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Post by dmc1001 on Dec 1, 2016 6:52:40 GMT
I read that the "I can't tell the aliens from the animals" line was only supposed to trigger near a Keeper. In which case, Ashley has a point. Just thought I'd mention it! That's exactly when it happens. You have to click on a particular Keeper (the others don't make it happen) in order for the line to be said. Visually, it's somewhat understandable.
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Nov 26, 2024 12:24:41 GMT
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Nov 26, 2024 12:24:41 GMT
January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2016 8:13:36 GMT
The nickname she gives Shepard, "skipper" just irritates me. It is an idiotic ESL thing, but it sounds offensive to me. I understand it is supposed to be endearing, and knock him down a few pegs, but it just sounds off to me. That isn't a personal nickname actually. It's military jargon, and isn't offensive. Skipper
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