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Post by mybudgee on Jul 2, 2018 17:59:20 GMT
Rumors are it has something to with italics?
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Post by SofaJockey on Jul 2, 2018 18:01:36 GMT
Rumors are it has something to with italics? Really?
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Post by SofaJockey on Jul 2, 2018 18:02:04 GMT
Really really?
(just testing)
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Post by mybudgee on Jul 2, 2018 18:16:25 GMT
I have no idea, my tech understanding is very limited
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Post by Obadiah on Jul 2, 2018 18:21:24 GMT
This critique in this video describes a poorly written leader/subordinate character dynamic and learning experience, then references the fact that a bunch of the leadership are women as the basis of it being "feminist", and that the moral is supposed to be to blindly trust women. This a ridiculous criticism. The moral for Poe was obviously supposed to be something about acting less as a hothead and leading responsibly, and was not supposed to be blindly obeying female command (that's stupid). As I said a few pages ago, the main problem with the scenario was that it placed the responsibility of the Canto Bight mission completely on Poe, and as such it was not a learning experience, it was a reason have Poe executed. The fix is to slightly change the dynamics of the situation - have Holdo or someone else in command agree to Poe/Finn/Rose's plan as a plan B worthy of pursuit because the situation is desperate, etc; set Poe up as someone with authority to challenge Holdo's orders; or even have Holdo realize the error in not confiding in or managing in her subordinates. It don't think this is an issue with feminism, as much as it is just bad writing. As a matter of fact, it's both. I think I understood the reason Poe and Finn were at odds with Leia/Holdo and Rose at those points in the film. Basically, Poe kept trying to be heroic when the mission was survival of the Resistance in the desperate situation of facing overwhelming force from The First Order. Poe destroyed the dreadnaught but lost the bomber fleet. Good call? Debatable considering the risk. I still think the movie could have handled Poe's "learning experience" with the fallout from the Canto Bight mission better. Finn has the same issue when charging into the cannon while defending the rebel base. The First Order still has overwhelming force, while the mission of the Resistance is to survive, not die performing heroics, which is why Poe called off the attack as a "suicide mission".
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Post by mybudgee on Jul 2, 2018 18:58:04 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2018 19:25:38 GMT
SofaJockey : What the hell is with the formatting lately? ^ You seeing this?? I've seen it before in one of my posts. Wierd satanic lookin' shit. Here's the quote stripped of the text you intended to put in there and Laughing mans original post. Quote it then look at it in BBCode and you'll see that some erratic code has gotten in there. <iframe width="23.960000000000036" height="4.900000000000006" style="position: absolute; width: 23.960000000000036px; height: 4.900000000000006px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_43276023" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="23.960000000000036" height="4.900000000000006" style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 4.9px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1121px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_32761950" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="23.960000000000036" height="4.900000000000006" style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 4.9px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 155px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_35789863" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="23.960000000000036" height="4.900000000000006" style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 4.9px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1121px; top: 155px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_37492494" scrolling="no"></iframe> Well, shit. I'll look into it after work.
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Post by Obadiah on Jul 2, 2018 19:52:17 GMT
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Post by Heimdall on Jul 3, 2018 0:06:19 GMT
Bootleg Chinese Star Wars anybody?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2018 2:57:23 GMT
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Post by Obsidian Gryphon on Jul 3, 2018 5:43:33 GMT
Bootleg Chinese Star Wars anybody? I'm not surprised. Give them a porsche and you'll end up with a train wreck. Things that can be copied / adapted, they will find ways to do so. Even food and that is the stuff of nightmares.
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Post by House Targaryen on Jul 3, 2018 6:05:12 GMT
Bootleg Chinese Star Wars anybody? This is simply amazing. Especially Darth Dennis.
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Post by smilesja on Jul 3, 2018 7:16:29 GMT
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Jul 3, 2018 12:20:31 GMT
Case. Fucking. Closed. That is not the son of Anakin Skywalker; who would know better than Qui-Gon? Jake it is.
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Post by Obadiah on Jul 3, 2018 13:33:34 GMT
Case. Fucking. Closed. That is not the son of Anakin Skywalker; who would know better than Qui-Gon? Jake it is. I don't know what Luke saw in Ben when he looked inside him with the Force, but obviously, given Ben's slaughter after Luke was left for dead, the darkness Luke saw inside him was accurate. Ben doesn't seem nearly as redeemable as Anakin, who was at least fighting for something other than himself - first the Republic, then his wife, and then the Empire. Ben just seems to have an insatiable lust for power and nothing else, and a driving need to cut all limitations and ties to achieve it (no family, no master). He literally sees his sentimental attachments as a weakness and wants to kill them. Kylo is a different villain, in a different Star Wars story. Guilt can be a helluva thing, and Luke has changed.
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Post by legbamel on Jul 3, 2018 15:09:17 GMT
To be careful Sith do you need to be part of the power structure, as in is there such a thing any longer or in the current galaxy are you a Sith if you claim to be one? There's no Dark Council and no emperor running the show no recognized masters and apprentices that we know of. What is a Sith in the context of the current trilogy?
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jul 3, 2018 15:31:56 GMT
No. Because Disney won't let him. Zahn saving Star Wars would still require a time machine to undo Mickey's bullshit. Or at the very least a kill/replace of Disney executives circa 2014 where instead of axing the EU, immediate screenplays for the Thrawn Trilogy were commissioned and Zahn was involved in every step of the process.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jul 3, 2018 15:53:55 GMT
Darth Bane destroyed the existing Sith power structure at the time because it bullshit and ineffectual (and in fact, a weakness).
The Sith Code is all you need, but even that is how a Sith achieves their goal, not why.
And yeah, while I'm sure the MickeyCanon Zahn books are still excellent on a literary level, I can't bring myself to support them. I don't fault Zahn one bit, the man has a job to do, and one I'm sure he enjoys doing. But as a fan of what he started they are not for me.
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Post by Heimdall on Jul 3, 2018 16:20:30 GMT
No. Because Disney won't let him. Zahn saving Star Wars would still require a time machine to undo Mickey's bullshit. Or at the very least a kill/replace of Disney executives circa 2014 where instead of axing the EU, immediate screenplays for the Thrawn Trilogy were commissioned and Zahn was involved in every step of the process. Presumably set much later in the timeline, the age of the actors would prevent a direct adaptation. Honestly I’ve mostly just become unsatisfied with the entire premise of the sequels. I mean, wiping away the old EU leaves us with an ocean of possibility, but all Disney and Abrams could think to do was to recreate the rebellion-empire dynamic of the original trilogy.
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Post by mybudgee on Jul 3, 2018 16:35:16 GMT
Also remember Kylo/Ben & Snoke are NOT Sith
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jul 3, 2018 16:50:00 GMT
One issue I have with the "Rule of Two" is that it tends to lead to diminishing returns. Much of the knowledge and techniques the Sith developed over time were lost because the Master never taught his Apprentice everything he knew. (and not everything was preserved via holocrons, just as not all holocrons even survived) So while I see how the basic idea is supposed to work in theory, in reality it is just as flawed as the other method. I mean, Bane himself was a product of the older Sith, and no one would claim that Marka Ragnos or Naga Sadow or Tulak Hord were "weak". Ehh, there isn't really anything to back the claim that knowledge was lost during the Rule of Two. Though we only have the endpoints to discuss (Bane-Zannah and Plaguis-Sidious), they suggest they were gaining knowledge, not losing it. Most Sith knowledge being lost came about because of the collapse of the older systems, allowing the Jedi to purge it several times. How many times has Korriban been lost and wiped clean (seemingly) by the Jedi? As for Ragnos, Sadow and the rest of the ancient Sith, yes they were the strongest of their generation but they also had the benefit of still being built on the old Sith (race) civilization, which was less indvidualistic and did hold notions of loyalty and fealty. It was the Jedi Exiles turned conquerors that laid the seeds of betrayal as a tool for advancement and in most media across the EU it's always the fallen that exemplify that trait most, not the "naturalborn" (where applicable). So naturally, later orders that were built solely on essentially strangers and foreigners with nothing in common except the Dark Side fell apart even faster than their older counterparts. A hierarchy greater than two and the Sith Code are mutually exclusive. But some hierarchy is needed to ensure lineage past death. So the Rule of Two is the only answer. Presumably set much later in the timeline, the age of the actors would prevent a direct adaptation. Honestly I’ve mostly just become unsatisfied with the entire premise of the sequels. I mean, wiping away the old EU leaves us with an ocean of possibility, but all Disney and Abrams could think to do was to recreate the rebellion-empire dynamic of the original trilogy. Personally I would prefer a full CGI (but like the TOR trailers, not cartoony like whatever show) adaptation set in the original time period (5ABY). This would allow the original actors to still do the voices if they so chose, or would give us a good enough alternative as it's easier to mimic a voice than find lookalikes who can also act. Otherwise where the EU left off was more or less where the actors would be age-wise these days. Of course all this was before the passing of Carrie Fisher.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jul 3, 2018 17:57:39 GMT
Hmmm... I wasn't referring to any duo in particular, more a general conclusion based on how things tended to work. The master would never hurry to teach his Apprentice everything because there's always the question whether he's worthy. (not to mention ego, and selfishness, some Sith did mean to become immortal after all) And the Apprentice, well, it's very likely, given how Sith are, that he'd lose patience and attack the Master when he thinks he's strong enough. I doubt most Apprentices would stay their blade just because there might be something the Master hadn't taught them yet. It just, the system is built to encourage other things, not specifically the preservation of knowledge for its own sake. As for Bane and Zannah, it's never specified IIRC, but I'm fairly certain that he didn't teach her everything he knew, for example the essence-transfer technique, and possibly other things. Same with Plagius and Sidius, Sidius was certainly a powerful Sith, but as far as I know he never mastered the techniques his master developed. (that led to the creation of Anakin Skywalker) My point was that there's unfortunately little info on the majority of Rule of Two Sith. We have the founders and the final generation, and the line between them that basically points and says "there, it worked". I say the theory is solid, but there's little actual data to argue it one way or the other. Otherwise, worthiness was determined in part by how well the apprentice takes to the lessons. And the apprentice attacking the master prematurely should a) end in failure because by definition the master is more worthy and b) assuming it wasn't that much of a fuckup, the master would imprint on the apprentice why it was a fuckup and how to truly gauge when the appropriate time is. It'd be a judgement call, obviously on whether the apprentice is salvageable or whether it'd be better to kill them and start over. As for the essence transfer, Bane had just learned it, and was already in conflict with Zannah. That doesn't mean the knowledge was lost though. Zannah defeating Bane meant Andeddu's holocron became hers. I don't think it was implied that each subsequent master would personally hold all the knowledge gained and then still be an improvement on the last, just as I wouldn't think the succession would unfailingly be better with each new generation- there would've undoubtedly been some steps back. And you have to account for personal affinities as well. Bane explicitly could not do Sith Sorcery, but Zannah could. We never find out if Cognus could, but surely somewhere down the line another sorcerer would come along who'd then be able to use Zannah's knowledge as well as whatever else of the ancients they'd found by that point. And of course Palpatine could do it all, because Lucas. But while you're right that preservation of knowledge wasn't an explicit article of the Rule of Two, it was in the spirit of Bane's order (preservation through secrecy) and sort of implied in the drive for each new Sith to be stronger than the last. A Sith that could use more of the knowledge gained was by definition stronger than one who could not, and a Sith that didn't have the preserved knowledge that would serve him would again be weaker by definition than if he'd had it. Whether or not an ultimate Sith (like Palpatine) was actually possible is also moot, as this is all about the drive to get there, not the endpoint itself. Plus, I still think they did a far better job than any of the systems that came before regardless. I'm not sure if I'd agree about that, their strength was their own, and while they did cooperate to a degree - they were still Sith. Their strength was their own but they would've dealt with much less backstabbing and betrayal, and less upstarts than later generations of Sith that did not have the more honorable traditions to fall back on. Sith purely function on the Sith Code do not work in hierarchies- it's nonsense to try to form one and still keep to the code 100%. I'm saying the ancient Sith Empires even after they developed the code, mostly didn't stick to it fully. At least the minions didn't.
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Post by Hier0phant on Jul 3, 2018 18:00:18 GMT
Also, I'm officially starting to call Disney-Luke "Jake". Jake Dirtcrawler.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jul 3, 2018 20:16:48 GMT
It worked in the sense that successors still followed the same ideology, not in the sense that successors had access to the entire wealth of knowledge their predecessors gathered. Your source for this? I just finished saying that having none of this filled in, we can't discuss the finer points of it. You can look at it from two angles: On one hand, if they had all that knowledge at hand, it could have made them softer in theory (though I'd argue not necessarily), on the other hand if you preserve the spirit of the code and leave the struggle separate the weak from the strong, you still only have what knowledge you can scavenge from holocrons or what the master knows. What? Having the knowledge doesn't make them weaker at all. And truth be told, this is a bit of a misnomer, since Sith teachers aren't quite the same as having some books on physics. Having the knowledge and being able to use it requires tremendous effort and sacrifice. It's the opposite of weakness. You seem to constantly imply that the Rule of Two was missing some great wealth of knowledge that the ancient had. While this may itself contested (Bane himself didn't see himself as lesser because he didn't duplicate the feats of old, like blowing up stars- he thought those tales overrated and overblown), even if it's true, it's hardly their fault. The ancient Sith were the ones who lost their knowledge, several times over because their systems fell apart. Or worse, discarded them as in the case of Kaan's brotherhood. Saying the Rule of Two sucks at preserving knowledge with this argument is like saying people alive today suck at preventing WWII- we weren't there! Like I said, all the evidence we do have show Bane's order was pretty good at finding Sith knowledge and keeping it. Bane himself recovered four Holocrons, each more valuable than the combined teachings of Kaan's Brotherhood, he amassed countless other artifacts in the timeskips in the books which seem to hint that Zannah and co followed suit. Fast forward a thousand years and Plagueis still seems like he has most of that stuff and Sidious has even more (I think he even has Vitiate's holocron). Compare all the other Sith orders. The only way they endured was by literally hiding in a corner of the galaxy no one knew about. Bane's order hid too, but in plain sight and they kept their share of knowledge going for a millennium between two people, as opposed to thousands. That's not bad. Aside from that, it could be argued that the Sith never actually won (not for long anyway), ever since the Rule of Two was established. On the contrary, it was the most effective victory the Sith have ever had, and one that literally took the Force itself to go "wait, no, fuck this" to overthrow. And still they would've won if Palpatine had tried to pull a Herrod and have every child named Skywalker killed. Longevity isn't the only metric. Twenty years of absolute rule over the entire known galaxy by one/two guy(s) > a thousand years here and there of a thousand Sith ruling a backwater. Not to mention the most successful Jedi purge in all of Star Wars and bonus points for having everyone play themselves. I don't disagree that the way of the Sith has merit, I just always thought that (most of) the Sith and the Jedi respectively only ever saw one side of the picture. The Sith are good at certain things, the Jedi are good at others. (and I'd say that preservation of knowledge is one of the things Sith are terrible at) In a fight, the Dark Side is simply better (ignoring the possibility of a Mary-Sue of course...) because destruction, pain, fear, death, are all things that a darksider can potentially feed on, no matter which side is dying or in pain. A darksider's own fear can be channeled as a weapon, etc. All the while a Jedi needs to waste (mental) resources suppressing his pain and emotions. However, when the fight ends, it is the Jedi who knows how to heal, how to negotiate, and potentially, how to judge and rule fairly. They tend to appreciate wisdom and enlightenment for their own sake (as long as they don't run contrary to their own of course... but that's still a fairly broad area, and even when it comes to "forbidden knowledge", they just as often tended to lock it away rather than destroy it). That's a different argument. I know your views on Jedi Vs Sith and I don't necessarily disagree. But we're not talking faults of Force users, we're discussing specifically which system of Sith is superior. That's all fair and good, but an apprentice who's exceptionally good at one thing, and fairly average at others could still potentially overwhelm his master under the right circumstances, which does nothing for the preservation of everything else aside from his particular talent. And? Again take the examples we know. Bane- Strong martially, not a sorcerer Zannah- weaker martially, surpasses Bane with sorcery. Cognus- no data on martial ability or sorcery, but presumably overcame Zannah with Force Dampening Millenial- precognition etc. etc. That doesn't mean Bane's experience and teachings didn't survive via his holocron and other leavings, or Zannah's sorcery, or Cognus's ability, assuming it was transferable and could be taught. Zannah learned sorcery from teh scraps of ancient knowledge Bane found. She would not have stopped improving after his death. Therefore the next apprentice that was adept with sorcery would have not only those scraps but also Zannah's teachings and experiments and, assuming they followed the program should take sorcery even further. Ditto for any other skill. Each successor doesn't have to be absolutely stronger at everything forever. Each presumably had their strengths and weaknesses. Doesn't mean the level cap didn't go up for skills and thus for the Sith as a whole. ]There's a fine line between a level of adversity that makes one strong, and a level of adversity that simply makes one dedicate every available resource just to this end, to the detriment of most other things. I think that the Sith took their honored tradition of backstabbing to the point that it became counter-productive even for their stated goals. (not to mention broadly the preservation of all the knowledge they discovered over time) A Sith following the Code has precisely zero reason to swear fealty to anyone, ever. The only reason they do so is if they don't have a choice or if it's in their interest to do so. The latter condition is by its nature temporary and as to the former, the strongest Sith Lord can knock one or two minions, or ten into the ground, but not thirty or fifty or a hundred. Numbers will eventually win, but this will result in a reduction of power. Zerg rushes are anathema to Sith. But this cycle is part of what they are. So how do you reverse the curve, take a weakness and turn it to a strength? Make sure that if you're going to do it, you're forced to become stronger and meaner than that you intend to kill. The Code should be a means to an end, not the end itself. (which is what it seems to have become) In what way is it an end?
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August 2016
crutchcricket
CrutchCricket
Mass Effect Trilogy
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jul 3, 2018 21:33:10 GMT
Basically what you yourself pointed out in relation to Bane Vs. Zannah. Each apprentice had their own strength, and just like Bane didn't know much about sorcery, Zannah wasn't as knowledgeable as Bane about other aspects of the Force. As you said: "Zannah learned sorcery from the scraps of ancient knowledge Bane found." I already responded to this above. The fact that no single Sith is great at everything does not invalidate the fact that the accumulated knowledge of the order grows. After all, Sith are selfish (by necessity, due to the constant struggle), something either advances the power and ambition of the individual Sith, or it is discarded. Building a base of knowledge (even knowledge that's not immediately beneficial to the Sith in question) is not on the agenda. Ah but the books tell a different story. Bane gathers not just Sith lore but all manner of information to him in pursuit of the Grand Plan. He basically becomes an information broker, feeding fires and working to slowly destabilize things region by region, leading to the shitshow of a political landscape we see in teh prequels. By necessity he's playing the long game since he word for word acknowledges that he probably won't live to see the work actually completed. (I'm indulging myself in discussing some irrelevant "non-canon" issues because I'm tired of watching this thread circling down the drain because of the latest shitshow...) Hey. It's the only canon (that matters). And yes, this is vastly preferable. Though, other types of Sith existed as well with their own twist on the same traditions. You are probably just as familiar with them as I am since you know the EU. Yes but I argue none are as successful. We've discussed the ancients' failures. And Krayt is a downright travesty. The only Sith philosophically worth a damn outside the Rule of Two are Revan (who inspired it) and Malgus in the novel Deceived. There doesn't seem to be an end goal for the Sith, they don't have a win condition, they exist only for the struggle itself. When Sidius talked about bringing order and peace to the Galaxy it was a ludicrous proposition from the beginning. As a Sith he wouldn't have been able to tolerate actual peace, if there was no threat to fight he would have created one himself. (supposedly he was preparing to fight the Vong, but after that?...) Peace is an anathema for a Sith: "Peace is a Lie, There is Only Passion" etc. The practical end goal is total domination and the extermination of the Jedi. The philosophical goal is total and absolute freedom and total and absolute power. The latter may not be practically possible. But as with any philosophical goal, that shouldn't stop anyone from trying. And Palpatine was still polititalking/euphemising/straight up bullshitting. In the Senate speech that's obvious, and I would argue even in private with the newly turned Darth Vader he's still spinning his lies. Contrary to what many people think, falling to the dark side doesn't mean you're immediately a rage-fueled homicidal maniac who eats puppies and uses babies as jet fuel. Anakin still needed to be suckered into thinking he's doing the right thing a little longer, until he'd killed and tortured enough to not matter anymore. What would happen if Palpatine had survived, defeated the Rebels and later the Vong? I imagine he'd pull a Matrix where he'd perfect a cycle of allowing a few rebels to "escape" and "plot against him" and then manipulate the conflict and resultant suffering until it'd run its course at which point he'd "win", but leave some room for a last hope to "escape" again. Hell with enough effort he'd approach Reaper levels of "the cycle has repeated itself more times than you can fathom."
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