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Post by colfoley on Jan 12, 2017 22:57:18 GMT
Look, I don't know what the thinking was behind these decisions - and neither do you. I've suggested that (at least) part of the reason is to communicate the fact that Ryder is not military. If at any point during the game, the Tempest or Nomad needs more weaponry, I'm pretty sure the game will see to it that its available. Otherwise, I think you can count on there being no such engagements. Yeah, that's not a particularly stellar example of story-telling, designing things in a way that is questionable and then twisting the story to prevent the inevitable problems from curbstomping the protagonist as they should. Why would it follow that such engagements and problems are a given? The Tempest is described as 'fast' and more importantly stealthy, its a scout ship. Designed to scout/ explore instead of hold up in front line combat. The AI clearly did not have enough room to bring along large warships on the mission which, makes sense. They clearly intended to either build them on the other end, or more likely, bring them in from the MW as soon as they get the big mass relay going.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2017 22:58:20 GMT
And that's why we need big guns on all the ships that are there exploring. Considering we've all saw the Ryders kicking alien ass in the previous trailers and gameplay, I'm not sure what these different rules of engagement are. Like I said several pages ago, Ryder will probably do battle with hostile non-sapient wildlife while exploring. There may also be some hostilities with members of Milky Way races that have gone rogue. What the approach will be to sapient aliens remains to be seen. Provoking alien races when you know nothing about their technology, their numbers, their political structure, or anything else about them would be beyond stupid. Preparing for hostility is not provocation. They also don't know what you're capable of. You can very well hide your capabilities. Having weapons is not the same as pointing them at everyone. I don't think I even need to mention that you WILL do battle with the Kett, right? A sapient alien race. I don't, right?
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Post by colfoley on Jan 12, 2017 22:58:29 GMT
Basically its the Doctor Who aspect of exploration versus the Star Trek one. The TARDIS is not armed, nor technically is the Doctor, but that does not stop him from blowing up all sorts of real estate if he has to. Well, the Star Trek approach is certainly the more logical one. Certainly more than managing to survive by convenient ass-pulls and luck alone. The Star Trek one was objectifiably hypocritical, 'oh we are on a mission of peaceful discovery...with enough firepower to level a small planet'.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2017 22:59:08 GMT
Yeah, that's not a particularly stellar example of story-telling, designing things in a way that is questionable and then twisting the story to prevent the inevitable problems from curbstomping the protagonist as they should. You expected stellar storytelling? Did you not play the trilogy? Oh, I see what you did there. Stellar as in going to the stars.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2017 23:05:34 GMT
Like I said several pages ago, Ryder will probably do battle with hostile non-sapient wildlife while exploring. There may also be some hostilities with members of Milky Way races that have gone rogue. What the approach will be to sapient aliens remains to be seen. Provoking alien races when you know nothing about their technology, their numbers, their political structure, or anything else about them would be beyond stupid. Preparing for hostility is not provocation. They also don't know what you're capable of. You can very well hide your capabilities. Having weapons is not the same as pointing them at everyone. I don't think I even need to mention that you WILL do battle with the Kett, right? A sapient alien race. I don't, right? I was responding to your references to rules of engagement. Rules of engagement generally put forth a set of conditions outlining how to deal with potentially hostile elements - attempt communication, flee, attack, purely defend, etc. Where the story takes us into battle with Kett, we'll do battle with Kett. Presumably, we'll know much more about them, have legitimate reasons for it, and be properly equipped.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 12, 2017 23:06:02 GMT
Why would it follow that such engagements and problems are a given? The Tempest is described as 'fast' and more importantly stealthy, its a scout ship. Designed to scout/ explore instead of hold up in front line combat. The AI clearly did not have enough room to bring along large warships on the mission which, makes sense. They clearly intended to either build them on the other end, or more likely, bring them in from the MW as soon as they get the big mass relay going. Why not? You assume that you will be the only intelligent life form in a whole new galaxy with the ability and means to create armed space-ships? The AI MUST have had some tools for defense, it would be practically insane to go unarmed into an unknown galaxy. And they do, the Apex force, and the small arms, and likely fighter type vessels. I just think the AI made a lot of assumptions about what would happen when they got on the other side that they would be able to do things relatively quickly. Obviously those assumptions seemed to have been false.
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Post by hammerstorm on Jan 12, 2017 23:06:24 GMT
Then again, you can also make the claim that having a maingun may just provoke a more advanced race. Because if you are going with the idea that we wont know what we are going to face, it is better to have a ship that don't threaten the enemies into blowing your little ship in even smaller pieces. If I remember correct, the briefing said that they choosed movement and evasion over heavy plating and the main gun, so they (the engineers) most likely calculated that the gains was bigger than the loss of armament and pewpew. Nope, I don't even remember the Thannix cannon on the Normandy being there for everyone to see when she was just flying. I don't see a provocation with a hidden gun. So in your perspective, it's better to just try to hide? What if you can't? What if your only option is to stay and destroy the hyperspace inhibitor they put up while they hunt you down with their advanced radar systems? Are they advanced enough to be able to threaten my ship, they most likely have the ability to find out if I have a main gun. Or are we just playing the "what if game"? In that case what if they have the ability to see my weapon? If they can find me, they sure as hell have better weapon than me to. Which only give me two option: fight and die or surrender and don't die. The point of having a ship that is that small (it is smaller than Normandy) is so you can escape, not to engage in a fight that will only destroy your ship. Anyway, the game has decided that we wont have a main gun (atleast not in the beginning) so people can either do as I do and look for an explanation or complain that they are stupid and it makes no sense and we will die at first encounter. For me, the latter only seems like a waste of time and energy.
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Post by Gwydden on Jan 12, 2017 23:12:11 GMT
Yeah, that's not a particularly stellar example of story-telling, designing things in a way that is questionable and then twisting the story to prevent the inevitable problems from curbstomping the protagonist as they should. You expected stellar storytelling? Did you not play the trilogy? Oh, I see what you did there. Stellar as in going to the stars. I'm always more than a bit surprised when people look for such things as realism and rock solid storytelling in a Mass Effect game. I'm not at all bothered by this, but I also don't think is as silly as some would paint it. The Tempest is a small scout ship. Even if you were able to put heavy-ish weaponry on it, I doubt it would give it enough firepower to make much of a difference in a fight. Better to invest on speed and stealth, the ship's actual specialty.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2017 23:12:29 GMT
Nope, I don't even remember the Thannix cannon on the Normandy being there for everyone to see when she was just flying. I don't see a provocation with a hidden gun. So in your perspective, it's better to just try to hide? What if you can't? What if your only option is to stay and destroy the hyperspace inhibitor they put up while they hunt you down with their advanced radar systems? Are they advanced enough to be able to threaten my ship, they most likely have the ability to find out if I have a main gun. Or are we just playing the "what if game"? In that case what if they have the ability to see my weapon? If they can find me, they sure as hell have better weapon than me to. Which only give me two option: fight and die or surrender and don't die. The point of having a ship that is that small (it is smaller than Normandy) is so you can escape, not to engage in a fight that will only destroy your ship. Anyway, the game has decided that we wont have a main gun (atleast not in the beginning) so people can either do as I do and look for an explanation or complain that they are stupid and it makes no sense and we will die at first encounter. For me, the latter only seems like a waste of time and energy. That's the point of 'what ifs'. You don't know what you're going to find. And how in the world would any intelligent life think that being armed would be provocation? What if they see the guns? Would they automatically assume you're going to attack them? Doesn't anyone have a right to defend themselves? Every time you see an armed person, you think they are going to kill you? If you're in a jungle with a lot of wild animals and a man with a gun appears in front of you, do you instantly assume he's going to kill you? Or maybe he has a gun to defend himself if some of these animals try to attack him?
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Post by colfoley on Jan 12, 2017 23:13:18 GMT
And they do, the Apex force, and the small arms, and likely fighter type vessels. I just think the AI made a lot of assumptions about what would happen when they got on the other side that they would be able to do things relatively quickly. Obviously those assumptions seemed to have been false. That's all very nice. Still, sending your best operatives in an unarmed ship to go about exploring an unknown galaxy is not particularly smart. You need to give them as much tactical options as possible. That's more important than having a room for orgies. Meh Hammerstorm is right, we are just playing the 'what if game' so even in your scenario...lets say they give us a ship roughly the size of the Normandy which would be likely given the series's roots, now that ship runs into a Dreadnaught type ship, and then that Dreadnaught type ship proceeds to blow us out of the sky. "well why didn't we recieve a cruiser" because the devs have chosen not to give us one. And given the AIs resources and mission statement, as stupid as it may be, it does make sense.
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Post by hammerstorm on Jan 12, 2017 23:14:10 GMT
Are they advanced enough to be able to threaten my ship, they most likely have the ability to find out if I have a main gun. Or are we just playing the "what if game"? In that case what if they have the ability to see my weapon? If they can find me, they sure as hell have better weapon than me to. Which only give me two option: fight and die or surrender and don't die. The point of having a ship that is that small (it is smaller than Normandy) is so you can escape, not to engage in a fight that will only destroy your ship. Anyway, the game has decided that we wont have a main gun (atleast not in the beginning) so people can either do as I do and look for an explanation or complain that they are stupid and it makes no sense and we will die at first encounter. For me, the latter only seems like a waste of time and energy. Having a gun to protect yourself is hardly the same as threatening someone with it. Don't go in guns blazing, be smart. But having more OPTIONS never hurts. But apparently did the people that created the tempest decide that it was more important to ensure speed and mobility over heavier protection and a main weapon.
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Post by hammerstorm on Jan 12, 2017 23:16:54 GMT
Are they advanced enough to be able to threaten my ship, they most likely have the ability to find out if I have a main gun. Or are we just playing the "what if game"? In that case what if they have the ability to see my weapon? If they can find me, they sure as hell have better weapon than me to. Which only give me two option: fight and die or surrender and don't die. The point of having a ship that is that small (it is smaller than Normandy) is so you can escape, not to engage in a fight that will only destroy your ship. Anyway, the game has decided that we wont have a main gun (atleast not in the beginning) so people can either do as I do and look for an explanation or complain that they are stupid and it makes no sense and we will die at first encounter. For me, the latter only seems like a waste of time and energy. That's the point of 'what ifs'. You don't know what you're going to find. And how in the world would any intelligent life think that being armed would be provocation? What if they see the guns? Would they automatically assume you're going to attack them? Doesn't anyone have a right to defend themselves? Every time you see an armed person, you think they are going to kill you? If you're in a jungle with a lot of wild animals and a man with a gun appears in front of you, do you instantly assume he's going to kill you? Or maybe he has a gun to defend himself if some of these animals try to attack him? That is not an accurate analogy. It is more like: A warship enter your water, do you assume that they are friendly? Or are you going to assume that they are enemies?
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Post by Ianamus on Jan 12, 2017 23:17:14 GMT
Does the type of guns our ship has really matter this much?
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Post by hammerstorm on Jan 12, 2017 23:18:20 GMT
Does the type of guns our ship has really matter this much? Apparently is it very important to have a weapon that we are not going to fire.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 12, 2017 23:21:18 GMT
Meh Hammerstorm is right, we are just playing the 'what if game' so even in your scenario...lets say they give us a ship roughly the size of the Normandy which would be likely given the series's roots, now that ship runs into a Dreadnaught type ship, and then that Dreadnaught type ship proceeds to blow us out of the sky. "well why didn't we recieve a cruiser" because the devs have chosen not to give us one. And given the AIs resources and mission statement, as stupid as it may be, it does make sense. You are repeating the same arguments that were made her before, the fact that you wouldn't be able to challenge a Dreadnought with the Tempest isn't a reason not to have weapons in order to make it possible to deal with smaller threats. If you meet a dreadnought in combat, yeah you are most likely fucked. But if you meet a Frigate, without weapons you are probably dead (because the Frigate is fast too, not just the Tempest), with weapons you stand a chance. On the flip side most alien races, most races, may not shoot at an unarmed ship because that would be a dick move. But if said ship was armed, it would be infinitley more likely to result in hostilities between said races. Just ask the Minbari and the Earth Alliance about 'approaching with your gunships open'. Unless of course said Alien race was naturally hostile, and the dumb sort of naturally hostile, or has a grudge against the AI in the first place. Which such a grudge would be a lot less likely to develop with unarmed scout ships.
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Post by hammerstorm on Jan 12, 2017 23:22:00 GMT
But apparently did the people that created the tempest decide that it was more important to ensure speed and mobility over heavier protection and a main weapon. Let's not pretend here. The "people who created the Tempest" are Bioware, and their decision makes little sense according to the logic of the situation. Are we going to take a look at it from that perspective, there is no problem. They didn't give you a gun because you won't need it. So, problem solved, no need for you to worry.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2017 23:23:56 GMT
That's the point of 'what ifs'. You don't know what you're going to find. And how in the world would any intelligent life think that being armed would be provocation? What if they see the guns? Would they automatically assume you're going to attack them? Doesn't anyone have a right to defend themselves? Every time you see an armed person, you think they are going to kill you? If you're in a jungle with a lot of wild animals and a man with a gun appears in front of you, do you instantly assume he's going to kill you? Or maybe he has a gun to defend himself if some of these animals try to attack him? That is not an accurate analogy. It is more like: A warship enter your water, do you assume that they are friendly? Or are you going to assume that they are enemies? How is it not? If you go out in space right now and find a heavily armored alien ship, you'll just assume they will wipe you out? YES! And would you rather not be armed to the teeth to defend yourself if they attack first? How is it your water? Space is not property of anyone, because it's f**k*ng BIG. If we find aliens in our solar system, will we want to exterminate them because this is our backyard? Will we just expect them to destroy us instead? We would rather choose a way to be diplomatic with them first, but we will not just submit to them, surrender or run either. That's what happened with humans and turians. Humans activated a mass relay, but galactic society says it's not good going around activating prohibited relays. Turians retaliated, and it began the war. How can you abide by rules you don't even know exists? You will then accept be hunted to extinction because of something you weren't even aware? To explore is to go out and do what nobody did before. Sooner or later you'll step into someone else's toes without even knowing. And you better be prepared for it. Think of it this way: even if they have a highly advanced galactic society, Andromeda has at least twice as much stars as the Milky Way, it's pretty much impossible to have everything settled. They could have as much as 98% of all galaxy undiscovered. It's pretty obvious they would run to other alien species, sooner or later. And yes, that's precisely my point: it is because you assume they CAN be hostile that you have weapons. Your enemies have the same idea.
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Post by Gwydden on Jan 12, 2017 23:25:42 GMT
You are repeating the same arguments that were made her before, the fact that you wouldn't be able to challenge a Dreadnought with the Tempest isn't a reason not to have weapons in order to make it possible to deal with smaller threats. If you meet a dreadnought in combat, yeah you are most likely fucked. But if you meet a Frigate, without weapons you are probably dead (because the Frigate is fast too, not just the Tempest), with weapons you stand a chance. On the flip side most alien races, most races, may not shoot at an unarmed ship because that would be a dick move. But if said ship was armed, it would be infinitley more likely to result in hostilities between said races. Just ask the Minbari and the Earth Alliance about 'approaching with your gunships open'. Unless of course said Alien race was naturally hostile, and the dumb sort of naturally hostile, or has a grudge against the AI in the first place. Which such a grudge would be a lot less likely to develop with unarmed scout ships. I would like to note the narrator never says the Tempest is unarmed. Just that it doesn't have a "main gun," which does not preclude small weapons. In fact, the denomination main gun implies contrast to other, secondary guns.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 12, 2017 23:28:44 GMT
Are we going to take a look at it from that perspective, there is no problem. They didn't give you a gun because you won't need it. So, problem solved, no need for you to worry. That's usually called bad story telling, having your characters act in ways that make no sense. We're not talking about characters acting in ways that do not make sense we are talking about characters, worse case scenario, using the technology and options available to them.
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Post by laudable11 on Jan 12, 2017 23:34:36 GMT
Aesthetically speaking, the Tempest and Nomad are beautiful. So I'll forgive the lack of realism.
But I should point out aint nothing real in this game. FTL, mass effect fields, you name it.
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Post by Xerxes52 on Jan 12, 2017 23:35:17 GMT
On the flip side most alien races, most races, may not shoot at an unarmed ship because that would be a dick move. But if said ship was armed, it would be infinitley more likely to result in hostilities between said races. Just ask the Minbari and the Earth Alliance about 'approaching with your gunships open'. Unless of course said Alien race was naturally hostile, and the dumb sort of naturally hostile, or has a grudge against the AI in the first place. Which such a grudge would be a lot less likely to develop with unarmed scout ships. I would like to note the narrator never says the Tempest is unarmed. Just that it doesn't have a "main gun," which does not preclude small weapons. In fact, the denomination main gun implies contrast to other, secondary guns. Possibly. At the very least it would probably have a GUARDIAN laser point defense system to intercept the small stuff you can't outrun (like missiles, torpedoes, and fighters).
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Post by hammerstorm on Jan 12, 2017 23:35:39 GMT
That is not an accurate analogy. It is more like: A warship enter your water, do you assume that they are friendly? Or are you going to assume that they are enemies? How is it not? If you go out in space right now and find a heavily armored alien ship, you'll just assume they will wipe you out? How is it your water? Space is not property of anyone, because it's f**k*ng BIG. Think of it this way: even if they have a highly advanced galactic society, Andromeda has at least twice as much stars as the Milky Way, it's pretty much impossible to have everything settled. They could have as much as 98% of all galaxy undiscovered. It's pretty obvious they would run to other alien species, sooner or later. And yes, that's precisely my point: it is because you assume they CAN be hostiles that you have weapons. Your enemies, and you. So, there is many dangerous animals in space? Because that was what your analogy did say. "Their water" as in we are the strangers in their galaxy. And if they are expecting to encounter other ships, it is even better to not have big guns. Because then they may not feel that it is in their best interest to shoot at us in an pre-emptive strike. Instead they may feel secure enough to try to communicate with us first. I don't say that it is a foolproof idea. But as I said before you can either try to pick everything it apart, which will not do anything else than make you dislike the game. Or you can accept that Bioware have their own idea and that they will not change it.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 12, 2017 23:38:35 GMT
I found the briefing about how we'll defend ourselves from aggressors:
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Post by hammerstorm on Jan 12, 2017 23:38:53 GMT
Are we going to take a look at it from that perspective, there is no problem. They didn't give you a gun because you won't need it. So, problem solved, no need for you to worry. That's usually called bad story telling, having your characters act in ways that make no sense. no, it is only bad storytelling if they don't make sense in the context. And I have tried to explain it in a way that make sense. That you and other don't like it is not the storytellings problem, it is your problem with the storytelling.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 12, 2017 23:40:36 GMT
On the flip side most alien races, most races, may not shoot at an unarmed ship because that would be a dick move. But if said ship was armed, it would be infinitley more likely to result in hostilities between said races. Just ask the Minbari and the Earth Alliance about 'approaching with your gunships open'. Unless of course said Alien race was naturally hostile, and the dumb sort of naturally hostile, or has a grudge against the AI in the first place. Which such a grudge would be a lot less likely to develop with unarmed scout ships. That's an assumption. Unless you power up your weapons or invade their territory with hostile intent and large forces, having weapons for defense likely won't be the factor that makes them shoot you. In fact I'd wager that having some weapons is more or less business as usual in problematic areas of space, even for civilian craft. This whole debate is an assumption.
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