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Post by azarhal on Dec 4, 2016 20:02:42 GMT
Ye, I noticed that too. And while I agree that ME never was about having heaps of active powers at the same time in our "skill bar", 3 seems a bit restrictive. In DAI that tiny skill bar was what kept me out of the game for follow up playthrougs. I would think that a limited number of powers active at the same time would diversify builds not limit them. Granted 3 powers is too little, but wasn't always the number of powers you could map on consoles anyway? Even on PC, you could only map 10 powers in ME (and you often didn't even have that many powers anyway) so I honestly don't see how this is suddenly an issue in the ME series. ME2/ME3 you could only map 3 powers to the controller. The rest were accessible via the wheel. In ME3, the max active was 8 on all system though (even PC): 1 medi-gel/unity, 1 bonus power and max 6 for your class. MEA removed the ammo powers from the active ability slots, they stay on the wheel. That means half of the ME3 classes would have 4 or less active abilities in a direct translation to MEA system (ignoring bonus power). There might have been some changes to how grenade works as well which would reduce the number of active for certain classes even more (there is a grenade icon in the trailer though).
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Post by Mellow MacVoutee on Dec 5, 2016 0:08:56 GMT
I do hope that more than 3 powers are available. I just carefully watched the trailer and found a dim ray of hope, albeit one that I have little confidence in. If you look carefully at the icons for each power, there appears to be an identical shape underneath the one that is visible. This could mean(please let it be the case)that we can toggle to another set of three powers in a way similar to what existed in DAI.
Edit: I looked more closely and see that other icons on the HUD have similar reflective copies (e.g., the gun) so my hope has diminished.
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Post by pdusen on Dec 5, 2016 0:41:46 GMT
Yes, looking at one feature without the context of how the whole system around it works is the definition of looking at it in a vacuum. None of what you said is material to the issue at all. And since you asked, I only buy games outright if the developer has a good track record. Otherwise, I wait for an informed opinion from various sources whose tastes align with mine and have actually played the game before I buy anything. Well, you can think whatever you want, but not looking critically at known features from a game you are trying to decide if you are going to buy or not, is a sign of naivete, certainly not of a smart consumer. Besides, part of my point was that Bioware doesn't have a good track record when it comes to this concern, so by your own logic you should agree. And yet I don't. It's almost as though your premise is a subjective opinion that you're presenting as a fact. As I said, I look critically at features once I can see them in context. I don't know what you think you're proving by acting like I said something else.
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 5, 2016 0:50:55 GMT
I do hope that more than 3 powers are available. I just carefully watched the trailer and found a dim ray of hope, albeit one that I have little confidence in. If you look carefully at the icons for each power, there appears to be an identical shape underneath the one that is visible. This could mean(please let it be the case)that we can toggle to another set of three powers in a way similar to what existed in DAI. I see what you're saying about the borders of the power icons. I'm pretty confident that it is just decorative edging, present to give depth to the icons. The same layered edging is present around/beneath the companion icons, and we know that they aren't "stacked", so to speak.
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Post by Mellow MacVoutee on Dec 5, 2016 0:58:26 GMT
I do hope that more than 3 powers are available. I just carefully watched the trailer and found a dim ray of hope, albeit one that I have little confidence in. If you look carefully at the icons for each power, there appears to be an identical shape underneath the one that is visible. This could mean(please let it be the case)that we can toggle to another set of three powers in a way similar to what existed in DAI. I see what you're saying about the borders of the power icons. I'm pretty confident that it is just decorative edging, present to give depth to the icons. The same layered edging is present around/beneath the companion icons, and we know that they aren't "stacked", so to speak. Yep. I noticed this just now myself and edited my original post. Thanks.
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 5, 2016 1:18:00 GMT
Yep. I noticed this just now myself and edited my original post. Thanks. I was actually hoping that you were right, oh well. (not that I would be happy with a limit of 6, but it's certainly better than 3...) Well, 6 would be middle ground between ME2 and ME3. Is your problem with a 6 limit in MEA based on the fact we might have more powers unlocked in our builds compared to the 3-6 limit?
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Post by azarhal on Dec 5, 2016 1:19:51 GMT
ME2/ME3 you could only map 3 powers to the controller. The rest were accessible via the wheel. In ME3, the max active was 8 on all system though (even PC): 1 medi-gel/unity, 1 bonus power and max 6 for your class. MEA removed the ammo powers from the active ability slots, they stay on the wheel. That means half of the ME3 classes would have 4 or less active abilities in a direct translation to MEA system (ignoring bonus power). There might have been some changes to how grenade works as well which would reduce the number of active for certain classes even more (there is a grenade icon in the trailer though). Not all classes even had ammo powers, so this change is only partially relevant, besides, as someone pointed out earlier, the option of using powers from the pause menu is gone, so if you can only map 3 powers it mean that you are only using 3 powers. There are no class in MEA, you have builts and every built gets the same limitations. They counted as active powers in ME2/ME3 for the classes that had them. They count as active powers in MEA for everyone even if you can't map them. That means a potential of 8 active abilities might I add (I'm pretty sure all 5 ammo powers are back going by the wheel). And again, the max amount of active in ME3 for any class was 6 and that included ammo powers and grenades. Being able to map 6 powers in MEA + unlocking all ammo powers would mean basically double what you could have in previous games.
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Post by Sanunes on Dec 5, 2016 2:31:47 GMT
Well, 6 would be middle ground between ME2 and ME3. Is your problem with a 6 limit in MEA based on the fact we might have more powers unlocked in our builds compared to the 3-6 limit? Indeed, while 6 isn't as terrible as 3, to really take advantage of a classless system I was hoping for an open hotbar that you can fill with however many powers you unlock. (which would have a soft cap depending on the amount of XP you can earn in the game) That is assuming the system didn't already have a limitation of how many skills you could pick to begin with so there wouldn't be more abilities then in the prior Mass Effect games, just a larger pool to choose from.
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Post by Sanunes on Dec 5, 2016 6:41:23 GMT
That is assuming the system didn't already have a limitation of how many skills you could pick to begin with so there wouldn't be more abilities then in the prior Mass Effect games, just a larger pool to choose from. I don't really see the difference, a harsh limit on ability number is the same no matter if it's just a limit on usable abilities or something else. Fair enough, I think the problem I am having is that we don't know anything and yes BioWare could show us more, but if anything changed people would be scream "why show us then, showing us means you promised". While going back and playing the first game again with plans to continue through to the end of the third, BioWare has always restricted our abilities even with the first game for we could only pick a single bonus power and only gave us eight quick slots for skills and one of those slots was always used as a rez button, in the first game it was for the Spectre ability to resurrect and in Mass Effect 2 & 3 it was for medi-gel. I get the appeal of being able to pick everything, but they do have to make some limits on the game as well. They might have even tested it at one point and found everyone was gravitating to the exact same abilities.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2016 10:14:31 GMT
I did some digging on the gameplay trailer and took screen shots of all the skills that were present. Some are very similar to ME3 icons for skills, some not. Here they are:
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2016 10:31:28 GMT
I'm not sure but in some of the skill icons it seems like there are two icons stacked, so maybe you can switch the set?
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Post by Blackheart on Dec 5, 2016 10:55:42 GMT
I hope it's not just three powers. When I read about clasless system I was excited, but immediately thought that this would probably mean less powers amount of active powers or even less amount of powers to pick from. I really hope that's not the case.
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Post by helios969 on Dec 5, 2016 10:56:07 GMT
It seems to me the reason 3 works fine for MP is that there is a natural pause/waiting period before starting a map/match in which to spec yourself optimally for that particular engagement. This is however a detriment to the SP game. Such will slow down the pacing of the game if each time you're about to enter an encounter you have to swap out your powers to prepare...or worse have to replay an encounter because you were improperly spec'ed and got smacked down. If this is actually true, this is but another example of poor decision making on the part of Bioware. So far the negative aspects about the game far outweigh the positives. My hype level is very low.
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Post by Pounce de León on Dec 5, 2016 11:10:54 GMT
If powers are on separate CDs it makes sense to limit them. I doubt we'll have "mana" as limiting factor as in DAI. It also allows to shape a unique build and style of playing instead of jack-of-all-trades.
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Post by pdusen on Dec 5, 2016 11:16:34 GMT
And yet I don't. It's almost as though your premise is a subjective opinion that you're presenting as a fact. As I said, I look critically at features once I can see them in context. I don't know what you think you're proving by acting like I said something else. I really have no idea what you are going on and on about, I saw a feature in the ME:A trailer which I know will frustrate me to no end, if it is indeed as it seems. So I voiced my concerns. This limitation would be annoying for me even if the rest of the game was to be perfect otherwise, so "judging in a vacuum" isn't really relevant here. From this thread it looks like I'm far from the only person with this concern, and yet for some reason you are quick to dismiss this concern as not valid. What I'm doing here is simply look at what seems to be in the game, as the information becomes available, in order to decide if I like the game or not, and perhaps even make Bioware aware of the concerns that were raised here. Fanbyism, on the other hand, really has no place when considering potential concerns. Look, it doesn't help your case to label people as "fanboys". Notice how at no point in this conversation did I label you as a "hater". Here's where I'm coming from: people panicked about the ability limit in DA:I, but in practice I never was in a situation where I thought to myself, "Man, I wish I had a different ability I could use from the ones I already have mapped". For me, that means the system worked as intended, which is why it's good that I didn't judge the ability limit on its own, because I would have formed an inaccurate opinion. As far as ME goes, I don't remember off the top of my head how many powers were readily available at any given moment in ME3, but my recollection is that I didn't use a large variety of them anyway, so it's possible that in actual gameplay you just won't need a large variety of different abilities available. It's impossible to know until someone takes a more thorough look at the whole combat system, which will start to happen as we get closer to release. In the meantime, there's nothing forcing you to pay for the game until you know the answer, so just hold your damn horses. Edit: Updated this post to better present my thought process.
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Post by pdusen on Dec 5, 2016 11:34:37 GMT
I don't see much point in continuing this when you seem to be having an argument in your head that isn't the one I put forth. By the way, it really doesn't help your case to write off other people as "fanboys". You didn't use any argument that makes sense. You just repeat the same "judging in a vacuum" argument despite the fact that this particular design decision is controversial no matter what's the quality of the rest of the game. I used the term "fanboyism" simply because it's the most apt description for those that dismiss valid concerns for no reason, merely because of misplaced "faith" in the product or the company. Edit: Your personal experience is irrelevant to the issue. It's not a problem for you? Good for you. It's still a problem for many others. I have used arguments that make sense and I haven't dismissed anything. It appears as though you're just here to try and form an echochamber and are not really interested in what anyone else has to say. Apologies for intruding.
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 5, 2016 12:04:15 GMT
I have used arguments that make sense and I haven't dismissed anything. It appears as though you're just here to try and form an echochamber and are not really interested in what anyone else has to say. Apologies for intruding. No you didn't, you used personal experience to explain why the concern is supposedly not valid. Is your personal experience more valid than mine? As I mentioned, some of the concerns are objective and not dependent on personal taste: "Caster" classes such as Adept and Engineer are going to be objectively worse and force a more repetitive gameplay with a 3 power limit. I'd put Sentinel on par of them as well. Really though, the only build that might not be that affected by this possible outcome is the Soldier class. I still think there's the chance the system won't limit us to three powers, given they didn't outright state it's like that. Maybe they're still working on the system, I don't know.
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Post by ProbeAway on Dec 5, 2016 12:06:37 GMT
I did some digging on the gameplay trailer and took screen shots of all the skills that were present. Some are very similar to ME3 icons for skills, some not. Here they are: Ah dammit, I just did a thread of these: bsn.boards.net/thread/2803/powers-speculationz-threadYou missed the one with the hazard symbol and cryo blast tho, so now I don't feel so bad
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Post by coldsteelblue on Dec 5, 2016 12:32:27 GMT
I'm really hoping that somehow we'll be able to use around 6 powers, for me that'll be enough, a defence power, a couple of support & 3 offensive & I'll be good to go, but assigning powers to the shoulder buttons, to me is a really strange decision, particularly when you have to mash 2 simultaneously for one of the powers, get your timing off slightly & you can cock-up what you were trying to do. Here's hoping that it is possible to customise the controls & map powers to different buttons, but for now, we'll just have to wait & see, I'm sure more info is on the way...hopefully.
Just my thoughts.
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Post by pdusen on Dec 5, 2016 12:37:24 GMT
I have used arguments that make sense and I haven't dismissed anything. It appears as though you're just here to try and form an echochamber and are not really interested in what anyone else has to say. Apologies for intruding. No you didn't, you used personal experience to explain why the concern is supposedly not valid. Is your personal experience more valid than mine? Nope. But I never said it was. You, however, referred to mine as "irrelevant". Some basic self-awareness on your part would be lovely.
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Post by azarhal on Dec 5, 2016 13:14:37 GMT
I have used arguments that make sense and I haven't dismissed anything. It appears as though you're just here to try and form an echochamber and are not really interested in what anyone else has to say. Apologies for intruding. No you didn't, you used personal experience to explain why the concern is supposedly not valid. Is your personal experience more valid than mine? As I mentioned, some of the concerns are objective and not dependent on personal taste: "Caster" classes such as Adept and Engineer are going to be objectively worse and force a more repetitive gameplay with a 3 power limit. Who actually played an Adept and did more than spam Singularity+Wrap with an occasional throw/pull? Or played an Engineer that didn't rely 90% of the time on Cryo Blast, Incinerate and Overload? Having more powers, doesn't mean you used more of them. Going by how you found DAI actives limit very annoying, I'm wondering if you could even like the previous ME games considering they had a max of 6 actives ability (7 with a bonus power).
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Post by pdusen on Dec 5, 2016 13:19:58 GMT
Nope. But I never said it was. You, however, referred to mine as "irrelevant". Some basic self-awareness on your part would be lovely. Irrelevant in general? Certainly not to you. Irrelevant to this specific concern, yes. Thanks for worrying about my self-awareness, I'll be sure to take notes. Still, you seem to be ignoring my reasoning in favor of pointless verbal jousting, as I said, in addition to the reasoning in the original post, "caster" classes in particular are going to be adversely affected by such a limitation. Essentially this limitations funnels everyone into a similar play-style, and encourages even more repetition. The topic is "Active abilities in ME:A (opinions and concerns)". I came in and presented my viewpoint, which was that there's not enough information yet for me to be concerned. My viewpoint isn't more or less relevant than anyone else's, but for some reason you've chosen to focus on convincing me that it somehow is. I'm not responding to your further assertions (such as this one that I'm replying to) because my original assertion still applies: that there's not enough information yet for me to draw the types of conclusions that you're drawing. I'm not sure what you'd expect me to add to that.
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Post by Pounce de León on Dec 5, 2016 13:28:38 GMT
If powers are on separate CDs it makes sense to limit them. I doubt we'll have "mana" as limiting factor as in DAI. It also allows to shape a unique build and style of playing instead of jack-of-all-trades. Why do we need separate CD exactly? That's just one questionable design decision motivated by another. And 3 ability limit isn't "allowing" uniqueness, what it does is limits player freedom and choice. If I play an Engineer I don't want to only have access to 3 abilities, the same for Adept. Vanguard, etc. Essentially, all power intensive classes are going to become more repetitive and boring than ever. Forcing the style of the ME3MP on the SP, is a hamfisted design decision. What does it matter why we need it? Apparently it's designed like that.
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Post by Gileadan on Dec 5, 2016 13:29:59 GMT
I really hope we won't get a classless 3 skill loadout system that basically has the following effect on your character:
Today I'm a biotic, tomorrow I'm not. Today I don't know how to toss a grenade, but tomorrow I will.
I found the 8 ability limit too constraining in DAI - there was always something I wanted to use, had spent my skill points on, but couldn't because there were no more free slots to map. The result was that I settled for a MMO-like standard rotation of skills that worked for most enemies.
Limited skill loadouts are bad. Instead of trying out new tactics against different enemies, I have to pick something before the mission starts and hope it works. Sometimes you really want to throw a grenade at a cluster of enemies, but noo... you picked Throw this morning after brushing your teeth, so somehow your gear didn't have room for grenades anymore.
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Post by Pounce de León on Dec 5, 2016 13:37:47 GMT
Good design and engineering is not determined by what can be added to the design, but rather what cannot be removed anymore, #lessismore
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