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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2016 1:57:24 GMT
Does anyone else hope that biotic opponents are more interesting and difficult opponents this time around?
One of the things I felt was disappointing with the Shepard trilogy's gameplay, was how underwhelming biotic enemies were. They were deliberately gimped and did not have access to any of the abilities the player character or companions had access to. You never run into a biotic who hurls you off a ledge for instance, or who detonates a biotic explosion on you with warp after another primed you with lift or singularity.
I can understand why this was done, as no one likes to be instant-killed or locked in CC by an ability they can't avoid. Unfortunately by gimping enemy biotics, it introduces weird story and gameplay segregation and results in dull encounters when you run into biotics. Other than having barriers, they're not much different from any other mook.
On that note I hope the Andromeda devs had introduced some new mechanics that could make biotic opponents a little more fun. Why not give them the same abilities players and companions have, but give the player a chance to avoid damage from them? For example in MMOs there are some bosses that can lock you in CC or one-shot you, but the game provides some warning ahead of time, usually a red circle or cone that appears under your character shortly before the attack. Or the boss might have some sort of channeling animation that can be interrupted.
Why not have something similar in Andromeda? Maybe your omni tool for example could be tuned to detect mass effect field shenanigans, and will flash and chirp if you're about to be hit with a warp or a singularity. It would give the player a second or two to react and avoid it by moving. Or perhaps the omni tool could warn you of a charging vanguard, by having an onboard V.I. warn, "Charge imminent!" or something to that effect.
Thoughts?
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Post by dropzofcrimzon on Dec 5, 2016 2:08:00 GMT
Sovereign: Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your civilization develops along the paths we desire. We impose order on the chaos of organic life. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it.
If this true then Andromeda might not have biotics as biotics are the result of the reaper tech and the eezo that comes with it. Andromeliens might not have discovered this at all let alone gave a compatible physiology.
Just saying it would be nice for once to have the goddamn technological upper hand.
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Post by dropzofcrimzon on Dec 5, 2016 2:14:08 GMT
Sovereign: Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your civilization develops along the paths we desire. We impose order on the chaos of organic life. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it. If this true then Andromeda might not have biotics as biotics are the result of the reaper tech and the eezo that comes with it. Andromeliens might not have discovered this at all let alone gave a compatible physiology. Just saying it would be nice for once to have the goddamn technological upper hand. I don't think Biotics are as important technologically as the Mass relays, or as important to the "Cycle". They certainly have the potential to make deadly soldiers, but in the larger scheme of things they aren't magic, and can potentially be countered with other technology. hummm...sure but that was not my point
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Post by dropzofcrimzon on Dec 5, 2016 2:24:35 GMT
hummm...sure but that was not my point Well, add what I said to the fact that Eezo is naturally occuring, so: 1. The Reapers are unlikely to be the ones that made Biotics, due to their relatively minor importance to the "Cycle". 2. Eezo is a naturally occurring cosmic phenomenon, and so are biotics considering that you have Biotic wildlife in ME. So unless Andromeda is Eezo-poor (but that would create another pile of problems for the milkies) for some reason, I doubt that Biotics (or something similar) are going to be exclusive to the milkies. eezo is a carcenogenic substance. Had it not been for the Asari Biotics might not even have existed in this cycle. Yes eezo is naturally occurring but come on...
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Post by CHRrOME on Dec 5, 2016 2:31:59 GMT
Not only with biotics, mind you. Happened with engineers too. Nobody used many (if any) abilities, they where all combatants. I mean yeah, the Cerberus eng could deploy the turret and wi-fi repair stuff, but not much else beyond that.
I think ME 2 did a bit better, I remember biotics throwing warp at the player, engineers deploying drones and casting incineration. And yeah, as mentioned above figthing Tela Vasir was no joke.
I agree, I hope they let all enemy classes use some abilities here and there, otherwise it feels like they're just soldiers, a bit boring honestly.
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Post by warbaby2 on Dec 5, 2016 2:34:52 GMT
That Sovereign speech can be safely dismissed by now, since it clearly stemmed from the old over arching story line that got thrown out with ME3...
So, sure, there might be naturally biotic enemies in the cluster... their powers would most likely not be called biotics though.
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Post by dropzofcrimzon on Dec 5, 2016 2:38:58 GMT
eezo is a carcenogenic substance. Had it not been for the Asari Biotics might not even have existed in this cycle. Yes eezo is naturally occurring but come on... Biotic humans were trained at the beginning not because of the Asari, but because some children showed the potential to use them in a limited capacity. Even if Asari didn't exist as an all biotic species it is very likely that the phenomenon would have been discovered anyway. that was after the first contact war if I remember right. I mentioned the asari because they have naturally occurring biotic subjects due to their world being irradiated with eezo thus bringing the potential to light. Most people getting the tumors DIE and civilizations advanced enough to know eezo and use it would have the tech (not knowing about biotics beforehand) to protect themselves from exposure this preventing most of the cases from happening. Also, without a way to harvesting and using eezo even if it occurs naturally from neutron stars no one would know how to use it let alone find a reason to harvest it and bring people in contact with it routinely preventing exposures altogether. Or are we going with "hey you milkies, we have ftl travel too based on a rare element called Eezo...oh,you guys have it too? COOL"
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Post by dropzofcrimzon on Dec 5, 2016 2:44:08 GMT
That Sovereign speech can be safely dismissed by now, since it clearly stemmed from the old over arching story line that got thrown out with ME3... So, sure, there might be naturally biotic enemies in the cluster... their powers would most likely not be called biotics though. the part about the tech holds true. If not then that would be a huge cop out
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Post by sosolaris on Dec 5, 2016 2:48:03 GMT
I thought biotic enemies could get pretty annoying in ME1, especially in that mission where you have to rescue some admiral being held hostage by a bunch of disgruntled L2s. Or fighting with Benezia's commando squad. I have many memories of my Shepard gracelessly falling over and being unable to move for 5 agonizingly long seconds while being shotgunned in the face repeatedly.
A refinement of this might work, and adding a timer like you mentioned could be interesting.
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Post by BansheeOwnage on Dec 5, 2016 4:02:29 GMT
Does anyone else hope that biotic opponents are more interesting and difficult opponents this time around? One of the things I felt was disappointing with the Shepard trilogy's gameplay, was how underwhelming biotic enemies were. They were deliberately gimped and did not have access to any of the abilities the player character or companions had access to. You never run into a biotic who hurls you off a ledge for instance, or who detonates a biotic explosion on you with warp after another primed you with lift or singularity. I can understand why this was done, as no one likes to be instant-killed or locked in CC by an ability they can't avoid. Unfortunately by gimping enemy biotics, it introduces weird story and gameplay segregation and results in dull encounters when you run into biotics. Other than having barriers, they're not much different from any other mook. On that note I hope the Andromeda devs had introduced some new mechanics that could make biotic opponents a little more fun. Why not give them the same abilities players and companions have, but give the player a chance to avoid damage from them? For example in MMOs there are some bosses that can lock you in CC or one-shot you, but the game provides some warning ahead of time, usually a red circle or cone that appears under your character shortly before the attack. Or the boss might have some sort of channeling animation that can be interrupted. Why not have something similar in Andromeda? Maybe your omni tool for example could be tuned to detect mass effect field shenanigans, and will flash and chirp if you're about to be hit with a warp or a singularity. It would give the player a second or two to react and avoid it by moving. Or perhaps the omni tool could warn you of a charging vanguard, by having an onboard V.I. warn, "Charge imminent!" or something to that effect. Thoughts? I agree! I'd like to point out, though, that the abilities enemies had access to (not just biotics) have been toned down each game. In the first game, enemies used all manner of abilities against you (maybe all of the ones you could? I don't remember), and they could even ragdoll you. Either way, they still had a much larger array of abilities to use against you, and it made them more interesting in that sense. But ME2 reduced enemy powers to only the most basic ones, and by ME3 you're lucky if an enemy uses any powers Not even basic stuff like Overload or Throw, never mind anything more interesting. Not even Cerberus Engineers use tech, only their deployable turret. Phantoms use a barrier and their palm-blasters. Banshees have Warp. Geth turrets have Incinerate, but it acts more like concussive shot (doesn't set you on fire). Some enemies use Cloak. That's really about it, sadly - the rest is mostly projectiles, melees, and Frag Grenades. There doesn't need to be as much strategy for countering these things, which makes the game less fun than it could be, in my opinion. So here's hoping ME:A is more like ME1 in that regard, or better. ME3 was still very fun for me, but I think enemies having most of the same powers you do and Biotics being different and dangerous foes would be a great improvement. But they should probably not do ragdolling I also understand that sometimes enemy abilities can be very frustrating (stun-lock, insta-kills, etc.), but the thing is, ME3 had all of those things anyway, so I don't think they should have removed diverse abilities. You're totally right about how it creates an odd gameplay-story segregation issue, though this also applies to other classes tending to forget about the powers they should have, and sometimes even things all classes have, like shields. I hope ME:A cutscenes take these things into account. And just a note: It would only make sense for Biotics to use standard kinetic barriers in addition to their biotic ones, so one could recharge while the other was active. This would make them very hard to kill, so I understand why it's not a thing in gameplay or story, but it kind of should be. I also agree on letting us avoid powerful attacks if we pay attention and time it right. In ME3, it was nigh-impossible to avoid a Banshee's Warp ball without going into cover. Even evading generally resulted in getting hit anyway due to crazy target-tracking. So I would simply have these sorts of abilities have their tracking toned down - they'd still track most targets, but would usually miss one if it evaded - and that would apply to your powers targeting enemies as well. While I'm not sure a voice calling out attacks would work on account of combat being too fast-paced for that, the omnitool/HUD giving you warnings (like the grenade indicator) could be cool, especially if it's something we could choose to upgrade. Edit: Semi-ninja'd
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Post by KaiserShep on Dec 5, 2016 4:57:35 GMT
I thought Tela Vasir was a considerably weak enemy (truthfully I find her to be totally overrated as a character). I guess that could be explained in-story that she was wounded so was not a Vanguard at her best, but in terms of gameplay, all she really used her signature power for was to evade while adds came in waves to pad the fight without really adding much difficulty along the way, especially if you did this mission near the end of the game. Beyond ME1, biotic enemies did not really become a threat again until the clone, and subsequently the N7 Mirror Match, where you could face multiple powerful combatants that shared some of Shepard's basic powers for each respective class, along with the entire arsenal of the N7 weapons (the Adept was a total pain with that Hurricane I tell ya what). In this match, the number of powers each class brought could be a stun-lock extravaganza and you can get wiped out quickly. This is probably the best model for powerful encounters among humanoid enemies in future games.
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 5, 2016 5:07:39 GMT
First, let's address this idea that mass effect tech is somehow linked to biotics. The latter is a biological adaptation to the presence of an environmental compound. The former is a technological path. Equating them is a fallacy. Element Zero is present universally, since it is an after effect of super nova explosions. Biotic species could have developed in Andromeda. These species need not have developed mass effect technology, however. To address Han's question, I agree that biotic enemies (and the occasional tech enemy, for that matter) should be more dangerous. I'm not sure about the mechanics offered in the OP, since they're beyond my experience. I know it can be pretty risky including these type of effects in a game. I was thinking more along the lines of what we experience in the ME3 "The Citadel" DLC Mirror Matches. Those Shepard mirror-clones were tough and aggressive, and more fun to fight than nearly any other SP enemy in the OT. In general, that DLC had better SP combat that most of the OT. It could be that better AI and simply giving them dangerous powers could be the answer. The problem with Shepard's foes is that they were never really supposed to put up a meaningful fight. They were there to get stomped. They didn't have the tools to challenge Shepard and his team. edit: partial
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Post by themikefest on Dec 5, 2016 5:18:30 GMT
Too bad Tela Vasir wasn't a squadmate.
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Post by sosolaris on Dec 5, 2016 5:29:39 GMT
I thought biotic enemies could get pretty annoying in ME1, especially in that mission where you have to rescue some admiral being held hostage by a bunch of disgruntled L2s. Or fighting with Benezia's commando squad. I have many memories of my Shepard gracelessly falling over and being unable to move for 5 agonizingly long seconds while being shotgunned in the face repeatedly. A refinement of this might work, and adding a timer like you mentioned could be interesting. I don't think that the idea is to bring back the ME1 combat system exactly as it was, think more of how Tela Vasir was handled. Of course not. I was mostly reflecting on the biotic fights in that game. Didn't think about Tela Vasir's fight, though. That's a good example.
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Post by dropzofcrimzon on Dec 5, 2016 6:29:39 GMT
that was after the first contact war if I remember right. I mentioned the asari because they have naturally occurring biotic subjects due to their world being irradiated with eezo thus bringing the potential to light. Most people getting the tumors DIE and civilizations advanced enough to know eezo and use it would have the tech (not knowing about biotics beforehand) to protect themselves from exposure this preventing most of the cases from happening. Also, without a way to harvesting and using eezo even if it occurs naturally from neutron stars no one would know how to use it let alone find a reason to harvest it and bring people in contact with it routinely preventing exposures altogether. Or are we going with "hey you milkies, we have ftl travel too based on a rare element called Eezo...oh,you guys have it too? COOL" Well, Eezo might be discovered sooner or later by any space faring species even without the Reapers "helping". It is after all a very peculiar "element" with almost limitless potential and potential applications. They might not use the exact same technology, but sooner or later some organics are going to become exposed to the stuff, some will die, some will become sick, and some will become biotics. Without the "Cycle" or the knowledge of Biotics from other species it might take longer, but if the stuff exist, sooner or later it will lead to something similar, sooner if Biotic wildlife will be found and studied. But the main thing is that Eezo in all of its applications is a basic part of the ME franchise, I don't see it disappearing any time soon. oh lord no. But I am saying that it might not be unreasonable to have Milkies introduce eezo to the andromeliens at least in the sense of its applications to FTL travel while maybe they (andromeleins) have figured out a different way to achieve that maybe like a halo-like slipspace engine. Which also means their tech does not rely lole ours upon mass effect fields which would be a rather welcome addition. See I always liked how in halo each faction had its own distinct weapon teach (and other techs) which reflected their history and evolution. The humans have ballistics, personal energy shields (stolen from the Sangheili and Kig Yar), genetic augmentation (which the covies did not have), fully sentient AIs (which the covies did not have), powered armor that was state of the art and their big guns were all based on advanced gauss tech. The covies had plasma weapons adapted from relics of the forerunner tech, FAR superior slipspace also adapted from forerunner tech, stealth tech but lacked a lot of the ingenuity shown by humanity as they relied on copying and revering forerunner tech. And of course the forerunners has hardlight weaponary and the ability to digitize human beings into fully sentient AIs and reverse the process (to a point) as well as some WAY out there genetic enhancing abilities and AI building as they were far more advanced than the other 2 factions. I loved to see the different techs interacting and would love to see the same happening in MEA. So sure, Milkies have Biotics and and state of the art Eezo/Mass effect fields but maybe the Andromeliens have other techs that can go toe to toe with them while being different.
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 5, 2016 7:02:26 GMT
oh lord no. But I am saying that it might not be unreasonable to have Milkies introduce eezo to the andromeliens at least in the sense of its applications to FTL travel while maybe they (andromeleins) have figured out a different way to achieve that maybe like a halo-like slipspace engine. Which also means their tech does not rely lole ours upon mass effect fields which would be a rather welcome addition. See I always liked how in halo each faction had its own distinct weapon teach (and other techs) which reflected their history and evolution. The humans have ballistics, personal energy shields (stolen from the Sangheili and Kig Yar), genetic augmentation (which the covies did not have), fully sentient AIs (which the covies did not have), powered armor that was state of the art and their big guns were all based on advanced gauss tech. The covies had plasma weapons adapted from relics of the forerunner tech, FAR superior slipspace also adapted from forerunner tech, stealth tech but lacked a lot of the ingenuity shown by humanity as they relied on copying and revering forerunner tech. And of course the forerunners has hardlight weaponary and the ability to digitize human beings into fully sentient AIs and reverse the process (to a point) as well as some WAY out there genetic enhancing abilities and AI building as they were far more advanced than the other 2 factions. I loved to see the different techs interacting and would love to see the same happening in MEA. So sure, Milkies have Biotics and and state of the art Eezo/Mass effect fields but maybe the Andromeliens have other techs that can go toe to toe with them while being different. I agree that it's nearly certain that the species of the Heleus Cluster would have developed entirely different technologies. There are positive signs that the game will reflect this, primarily in the form of a Mac Walters tweet saying that the "Andromeda Initiative species will be using mass effect technology". This is a separate issue from biotics, however, and not really what this thread is discussing.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Dec 5, 2016 19:05:48 GMT
Ragdolling and Vasir ? I think people forget just how annoying that shit is (and why MEPVP isn't a thing). I'm all for varying enemies so they don't just pew-pew at you but there should be zero ragdolling or other extended loss of control. And teleporting mooks are always assholes, so let's limit that too (banshee-likes hops are fine, as long as the thrice damned magnet hands are abolished). They could code enemy biotics and tech powers as DoTs or other debuffs but that's about it.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Dec 5, 2016 19:43:29 GMT
Well we can already get skewered and eaten alive by enemy mobs so I don't think having biotics disintegrate us if we fail to do something is a bad idea.
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Post by Serza on Dec 6, 2016 13:58:24 GMT
Yeah, sure. I'm playing infiltrator anyway.
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Post by BansheeOwnage on Dec 8, 2016 6:43:26 GMT
That Sovereign speech can be safely dismissed by now, since it clearly stemmed from the old over arching story line that got thrown out with ME3... So, sure, there might be naturally biotic enemies in the cluster... their powers would most likely not be called biotics though.Actually, they probably would. Remember, the aliens in the original trilogy are speaking alien languages, so while they have different terms for "biotics", the Universal Translator still says "biotics" to us. No reason it would be different for Andromedan aliens. Well we can already get skewered and eaten alive by enemy mobs so I don't think having biotics disintegrate us if we fail to do something is a bad idea. Yes, and I'm very much hoping those sync-kills are somewhat predictable, so they can be avoided. For instance, an Atlas has to melee before it can sync-kill, so you can always avoid it if played correctly, even while attacking at close range. I believe Phantoms and Banshees are similar. Brutes, however, can sync-kill any time... I hope the ME:A enemies are not like that.
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