azarhal
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Post by azarhal on Dec 14, 2016 13:27:53 GMT
It's not cost prohibitive, not with the AI being a thing. But your second point is perfectly fair, I even mentioned it in the OP. Why would individuals, including from other species, finance the construction of larger ships for the Alliance? The AI was privately funded from all species in Citadel space, not funded by the Alliance. A dreadnought would be founded by the government and governments always have too many bills to pay. On top of that, the AI ships aren't military ships. There is a huge different in cost between civilians and military ship building right now because of material quality and military ships having lots of weapons systems. For a comparison, the luxury cruiser RMS Queen Mary 2 cost around $900 millions USD to make (its cost was increased because of steel quality being higher than normal for civilian cruiser). The twice smaller (in length) Arleigh-Burke class destroyer cost twice as much at ~1.8 millions USD (the first one cost $1.1 billions without the weapon system, than another $778 millions for said weapon system, the average cost so far is $1.843 billions per ships). The Queen Mary 2 launched in 2004, the first Arleigh-Burke destroyer in 1989.
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Post by SofNascimento on Dec 14, 2016 13:45:36 GMT
"A dreadnought's power lies in the length of its main gun." The longer a dreadnought is, the more powerful it will be. It will fire more powerful rounds that will travel faster and allow the ship to be more distant from the enemy. So it would be extremely reasonable to build dreadnoughts as large as possible, since as long as their are far enough from the enemy, they can pound those forces with impunity. Of course, it wouldn't be unstoppable, as naval warfare has already told us, size can be a hindrance if the ship is not deployed properly. That's why not every ship the US builds is the size of an Aircrfat carrier. With the Nexus, we know that building ships close to the size of the Citadel is quite easy and can easily be funded. The Destiny Ascension was the biggest ship we know about, but still quite small compared to the Nexus, or even the Arks themselves. Why do you think not a single race ever build such vessels? Or even tried to? Especially in dire times like the Krogan Rebellions or the Rachni War? Again, you analogy is out of whack. Dreadnoughts on earth were battleships with bigger guns that enabled them to fire on enemies from a greater distances. However, projecticals on earth are affected by friction and gravity. As we learned in ME2 on the Citadel, in space a projectile will travel indefinitely and "ruin someone's day somewhere" if it misses it's target... So, any ship of any size can fire at a long, long distance as long as their computer can accurately work out a firing solution. So, in the ME universe, a bigger gun would do more damage, but not enable the ship to fire from. a greater distance. On earth, the concept of the super-large battleship pretty much went the way of the dodo after WWI. Contributing to it's demise was the rise of the aircraft carrier. Some classes of dreadnoughts were also armored in such a way that their decks were also susceptible to enemy air attacks and attacks from projectiles being fired from longer distances (i.e. on an arc). Aircraft carriers are large so that they can house more aircraft and aircrew. They are efficient as mobile fighter launch bases and that is why countries still invest in building them but do not invest in building dreadnoughts. The advent of guided ballistic missiles fired from smaller, more stealthy ships (e.g. subs) are also more efficient than the old dreadnought. Since Shepard and crew escaped the geth dreadnought in a geth fighter, it is likely that the geth dreadnought was more akin to an aircraft carrier than a dreadnought (although Bioware seemed to enjoy using the term "dreadnought" to describe any larger vessel in the ME universe). Far tougher to blow a bunch of fast, mobile geth fighters out of the sky than one ship firing on you from a distance. In addition, the geth dreadnought is using Gardian anti-fire lasers. If you bring EDI on the geth dreadnought mission, she will further explain that the dreadnought "is using "ultraviolet frequencies instead of the standard infrared" to which Shepard will respond "Expensive. Bet it gives them an edge in close combat." Tali indicates that it was those lasers that "carved right through" the shields of the Quarian ships that rushed the dreadnought. It's superiority is not about distance (as you suggest), but about accuracy. Also, Tali later indicates that it is the geth's "planetary defense canon" that was ripping through their fleet... so, it seems obvious that the Quarians were not just engaged with the dreadnought, but also with the defenses on Rannoch itself. We also later find out from Legion, that geth squadrons from the server were also inflicting heavy losses on the Quarians. The Nexus has a different purpose... to bring as large a population as possible to Andromeda... so deciding to invest in it would involve a totally different set of considerations than investment in a dreadnought. It would, because it would fire faster. So it would be harder to dodge. The Reapers bigger guns and more advanced targeting computers allow them to target enemies from farther away. So it's only not about if the "bullet" will eventually reach its destination, it's also about how fast it will travel. And yes, the advantage the Geth dreadnought had was not only because of its main gun, its armor and advance close combat weapons also played a part. It's hard to conclude much from the Geth dreadnought because of how space battles should be and how they actually look are very different things in the Mass Effect trilogy, but the it's safe to say that bigger ships won't be a problem, and that's the only point I'm using the Geth dreadnought for. And any dreadnought can carry smaller ships.
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Post by SofNascimento on Dec 14, 2016 13:48:43 GMT
It's not cost prohibitive, not with the AI being a thing. But your second point is perfectly fair, I even mentioned it in the OP. Why would individuals, including from other species, finance the construction of larger ships for the Alliance? The AI was privately funded from all species in Citadel space, not funded by the Alliance. A dreadnought would be founded by the government and governments always have too many bills to pay. On top of that, the AI ships aren't military ships. There is a huge different in cost between civilians and military ship building right now because of material quality and military ships having lots of weapons systems. For a comparison, the luxury cruiser RMS Queen Mary 2 cost around $900 millions USD to make (its cost was increased because of steel quality being higher than normal for civilian cruiser). The twice smaller (in length) Arleigh-Burke class destroyer cost twice as much at ~1.8 millions USD (the first one cost $1.1 billions without the weapon system, than another $778 millions for said weapon system, the average cost so far is $1.843 billions per ships). The Queen Mary 2 launched in 2004, the first Arleigh-Burke destroyer in 1989. They wouldn't. And yes, governments have more to do than build ships, but that don't stop them from doing so. If a private enterprise can finance such colossal ships, so can governments. I'm not saying they should build them left and right, but some. Just like the US have ships that cost $10 bi. More than any comercial ship I'm sure.
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Post by SofNascimento on Dec 14, 2016 13:50:21 GMT
Manoeuvrability. Increasing mass slows your acceleration. Warships need to be able to dodge - otherwise you're increasing your enemies effective range. They also need to be get where they're needed rapidly. . Of course this assumes you can't just scale engine power smoothly with ship size, but the lore certainly seems to indicate that's true. Also, putting too many resources into a single ship is questionable strategy. Firstly because it makes them too much of a loss if they're destroyed. Secondly because it would limit your ability to flexibly respond to threats if your military power comes in too big lumps. I'm sure it would be possible to create such a huge warship, but presumably practical experience and battle simulations have led to the races of the galaxy accepting ~1km length as the optimal "bang for the buck" with the technologies they have available. Also, shooting at extreme ranges you're going to have issues that your sensors are limited to the speed of light. So no matter how fast your gun is, you're accuracy is going to be limited because you've not got real time information. Though you could mitigate this by employing "spotter" frigates, I guess. Also, the Battle of Palaven codex in ME3 allows the Turians to make a short FTL "jump" to essentially negate the Reaper range advantage. I don't really like this, because I think it fits poorly with other lore, but if you accept ships do have this sort of capacity its a strong argument against focusing on range as an advantage in ship design. Indeed. Imagine a 10km dreadnought(about the size of the Crucible) trying to maneuver to align it's main gun to shoot at a enemy fleet or trying to maneuver to avoid incoming fire? And what about the amount of fuel (antiprotons) to run its engines or all the eezo to power its FLT drive and kinetic shields? Sure if it hit a target it would probably destroy it on a single hit but the drawbacks are too many to make it viable. We actually have evidence of super massive weapons being affective: that what took a reaper down is some long forgotten cycle (although I think it was on a planet, which doesn't change that much). That's more evidence than saying they wouldn't be effective, which is pure conjecture (a fair one I believe, but one that lacks much evidence from the trilogy. You have Reapers being overwhelmed by ships jumping in close quarters because they couldn't turn as fast, but you also have the Quarians being whiped out trying the same against the Geth).
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Post by bshep on Dec 14, 2016 13:59:05 GMT
Indeed. Imagine a 10km dreadnought(about the size of the Crucible) trying to maneuver to align it's main gun to shoot at a enemy fleet or trying to maneuver to avoid incoming fire? And what about the amount of fuel (antiprotons) to run its engines or all the eezo to power its FLT drive and kinetic shields? Sure if it hit a target it would probably destroy it on a single hit but the drawbacks are too many to make it viable. We actually have evidence of super massive weapons being affective: that what took a reaper down is some long forgotten cycle (although I think it was on a planet, which doesn't change that much). That's more evidence than saying they wouldn't be effective, which is pure conjecture (a fair one I believe, but one that lacks evidence from the trilogy). That weapon was also destroyed so it's really not a pure conjecture that the drawbacks outweight the avantages.
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Post by SofNascimento on Dec 14, 2016 14:00:52 GMT
We actually have evidence of super massive weapons being affective: that what took a reaper down is some long forgotten cycle (although I think it was on a planet, which doesn't change that much). That's more evidence than saying they wouldn't be effective, which is pure conjecture (a fair one I believe, but one that lacks evidence from the trilogy). That weapon was also destroyed so it's really not a pure conjecture that the drawbacks outweight the avantages. It's evidence that it's not a invincible weapon, only that.
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Post by azarhal on Dec 14, 2016 14:11:00 GMT
Indeed. Imagine a 10km dreadnought(about the size of the Crucible) trying to maneuver to align it's main gun to shoot at a enemy fleet or trying to maneuver to avoid incoming fire? And what about the amount of fuel (antiprotons) to run its engines or all the eezo to power its FLT drive and kinetic shields? Sure if it hit a target it would probably destroy it on a single hit but the drawbacks are too many to make it viable. We actually have evidence of super massive weapons being affective: that what took a reaper down is some long forgotten cycle (although I think it was on a planet, which doesn't change that much). That's more evidence than saying they wouldn't be effective, which is pure conjecture (a fair one I believe, but one that lacks evidence from the trilogy). His point isn't about effectiveness of the weapons themselves. It's about the fact that the larger the ship, the slower it can turn to position itself to fire or do evasive maneuvers while being an easier target to hit for smaller ships. They are very much large portable stationary turrets...and that's basically what ships larger than a frigate are in Mass Effect already going by ME1/ME3 cutscenes. If you want turrets with big guns, build planetary/moon defense platforms.
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Post by SofNascimento on Dec 14, 2016 14:11:47 GMT
Let me put in another, maybe better, way.
A lot of the arguments people are making here are, as I see, utterly reasonable. Costs, risks, maneuverability, etc. All those are fair points to why bigger dreadnoughts are not viable.
And some are supported by real life examples. But here is the thing, real life examples mean that someone went there, build a large ship and realized it didn't work, generally in a very bad way. Not only ships, but overdesigning weapons of war have backfired since ancient times. Take the successor kings after Alexander for example. They thought bigger was better, with ships as well as siege tower and battering rams. It wasn't much a problem when everyone around them were as shortsighted as that, but here comes the Romans with a much more practical apporach to siege warfare and those kingdoms were soon a thing of the past.
We have no example of that in the Mass Effect universe. We have a few pieces of information here and there that show shortcomings of bigger vessels (mainly the Turians vs Reapers), but also others showing a bigger ship can be extremely effective (mainly the Geth dreadnought). But the fact no one ever tried to do that, even though the technology and money was there, is unrealistic. Of course, all of that is a consequence of the Ai being a thing. Before that, this question could easily be answer by: it cost too much.
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Post by SofNascimento on Dec 14, 2016 14:12:25 GMT
We actually have evidence of super massive weapons being affective: that what took a reaper down is some long forgotten cycle (although I think it was on a planet, which doesn't change that much). That's more evidence than saying they wouldn't be effective, which is pure conjecture (a fair one I believe, but one that lacks evidence from the trilogy). His point isn't about effectiveness of the weapons themselves. It's about the fact that the larger the ship, the slower it can turn to position itself to fire or do evasive maneuvers while being an easier target to hit for smaller ships. They are very much large portable stationary turrets...and that's basically what ships larger than a frigate are in Mass Effect already going by ME1/ME3 cutscenes. If you want turrets with big guns, build planetary/moon defense platforms. That's like saying we don't need aircraft carriers, we can build airports on land.
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Post by themikefest on Dec 14, 2016 14:21:03 GMT
We actually have evidence of super massive weapons being affective: that what took a reaper down is some long forgotten cycle (although I think it was on a planet, which doesn't change that much). That weapon had to of been massive. It did create the great rift. You mean the battle of Palaven? I like what the turians did with that. Being able to destroy several capital ships. Too bad they didn't continue doing that That weapon was also destroyed so it's really not a pure conjecture that the drawbacks outweight the avantages. It could've been studied. If possible, have it mass produced to be used on the ships they already have, though it most likely wouldn't have the same results.
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Post by SofNascimento on Dec 14, 2016 14:24:54 GMT
I believe that was only possible because the Reapers were ill deployed and it was a kind of suicide tactic. Not really sustainable.
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Post by themikefest on Dec 14, 2016 14:28:38 GMT
I believe that was only possible because the Reapers were ill deployed and it was a kind of suicide tatic. Not really sustainable. It worked. It also gave a weakness to the reapers. Their backside. I would've continued doing that until the reapers made adjustments to prevent that from happening again.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2016 14:30:20 GMT
Again, you analogy is out of whack. Dreadnoughts on earth were battleships with bigger guns that enabled them to fire on enemies from a greater distances. However, projecticals on earth are affected by friction and gravity. As we learned in ME2 on the Citadel, in space a projectile will travel indefinitely and "ruin someone's day somewhere" if it misses it's target... So, any ship of any size can fire at a long, long distance as long as their computer can accurately work out a firing solution. So, in the ME universe, a bigger gun would do more damage, but not enable the ship to fire from. a greater distance. On earth, the concept of the super-large battleship pretty much went the way of the dodo after WWI. Contributing to it's demise was the rise of the aircraft carrier. Some classes of dreadnoughts were also armored in such a way that their decks were also susceptible to enemy air attacks and attacks from projectiles being fired from longer distances (i.e. on an arc). Aircraft carriers are large so that they can house more aircraft and aircrew. They are efficient as mobile fighter launch bases and that is why countries still invest in building them but do not invest in building dreadnoughts. The advent of guided ballistic missiles fired from smaller, more stealthy ships (e.g. subs) are also more efficient than the old dreadnought. Since Shepard and crew escaped the geth dreadnought in a geth fighter, it is likely that the geth dreadnought was more akin to an aircraft carrier than a dreadnought (although Bioware seemed to enjoy using the term "dreadnought" to describe any larger vessel in the ME universe). Far tougher to blow a bunch of fast, mobile geth fighters out of the sky than one ship firing on you from a distance. In addition, the geth dreadnought is using Gardian anti-fire lasers. If you bring EDI on the geth dreadnought mission, she will further explain that the dreadnought "is using "ultraviolet frequencies instead of the standard infrared" to which Shepard will respond "Expensive. Bet it gives them an edge in close combat." Tali indicates that it was those lasers that "carved right through" the shields of the Quarian ships that rushed the dreadnought. It's superiority is not about distance (as you suggest), but about accuracy. Also, Tali later indicates that it is the geth's "planetary defense canon" that was ripping through their fleet... so, it seems obvious that the Quarians were not just engaged with the dreadnought, but also with the defenses on Rannoch itself. We also later find out from Legion, that geth squadrons from the server were also inflicting heavy losses on the Quarians. The Nexus has a different purpose... to bring as large a population as possible to Andromeda... so deciding to invest in it would involve a totally different set of considerations than investment in a dreadnought. It would, because it would fire faster. So it would be harder to dodge. The Reapers bigger guns and more advanced targeting computers allow them to target enemies from farther away. So it's only not about if the "bullet" will eventually reach its destination, it's also about how fast it will travel. And yes, the advantage the Geth dreadnought had was not only because of its main gun, its armor and advance close combat weapons also played a part. It's hard to conclude much from the Geth dreadnought because of how space battles should be and how they actually look are very different things in the Mass Effect trilogy, but the it's safe to say that bigger ships won't be a problem, and that's the only point I'm using the Geth dreadnought for. And any dreadnought can carry smaller ships. Where do you get that a bigger gun is necessarily a faster gun?... because it's not. If you watch the Earth battle, you can clearly see that the big guns are the slower ones in that battle. Even the Reaper lasers are very slow-firing weapons, needing to recharge between hits. That's why Shepard can take the one down on Rannoch. Also, iRL dreadnoughts on earth did not carry smaller ships (other than boats that would just take on survivors if a ship was sunk or deploy a boarding party). Deploying smaller warships was not their purpose. The purpose of an aircraft carrier IS to deploy aircraft... so, as I said, it's made larger so that it can carry more aircraft and crew... not to make it be able to fire directly at enemy locations from a distance farther away. The geth dreadnought did carry geth fighters. The comments about the fire power to the dreadnought DO NOT talk about longer range encounters. They DO mention "close combat."... so, again, your analogy is out of whack on that front. Also, I don't think the Destiny Ascension was the Asari's only dreadnought. I don't think the geth dreadnought was their only one or that the Turians, etc. didn't have dreadnoughts of their own that we never see. During the battle for earth, another ship shaped like the Destiny Ascension is seen farther back in the pack of fleets. They built the Nexus as large as they could so that it could house 100,000+ people once they got to Andromeda. There is also the possibility that the size was needed so that it could eventually be completed as a Mass Relay capable of connecting to the Milky Way. They could have perhaps sent everyone in the AI on the one ship instead of one the 4 Arks, but they probably didn't want to do that in case something happened to the Nexus... better to split one's eggs among a few different baskets. They probably made the Arks species specific because of the different requirements different species would have for being in stasis.
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Post by SofNascimento on Dec 14, 2016 14:38:16 GMT
It would, because it would fire faster. So it would be harder to dodge. The Reapers bigger guns and more advanced targeting computers allow them to target enemies from farther away. So it's only not about if the "bullet" will eventually reach its destination, it's also about how fast it will travel. And yes, the advantage the Geth dreadnought had was not only because of its main gun, its armor and advance close combat weapons also played a part. It's hard to conclude much from the Geth dreadnought because of how space battles should be and how they actually look are very different things in the Mass Effect trilogy, but the it's safe to say that bigger ships won't be a problem, and that's the only point I'm using the Geth dreadnought for. And any dreadnought can carry smaller ships. Where do you get that a bigger gun is necessarily a faster gun?... because it's not. If you watch the Earth battle, you can clearly see that the big guns are the slower ones in that battle. Even the Reaper lasers are very slow-firing weapons, needing to recharge between hits. That's why Shepard can take the one down on Rannoch. Also, iRL dreadnoughts on earth did not carry smaller ships (other than boats that would just take on survivors if a ship was sunk or deploy a boarding party). Deploying smaller warships was not their purpose. The purpose of an aircraft carrier IS to deploy aircraft... so, as I said, it's made larger so that it can carry more aircraft and crew... not to make it be able to fire directly at enemy locations from a distance farther away. The geth dreadnought did carry geth fighters. The comments about the fire power to the dreadnought DO NOT talk about longer range encounters. They DO mention "close combat."... so, again, your analogy is out of whack on that front. Also, I don't think the Destiny Ascension was the Asari's only dreadnought. I don't think the geth dreadnought was their only one or that the Turians, etc. didn't have dreadnoughts of their own that we never see. During the battle for earth, another ship shaped like the Destiny Ascension is seen farther back in the pack of fleets. They built the Nexus as large as they could so that it could house 100,000+ people once they got to Andromeda. There is also the possibility that the size was needed so that it could eventually be completed as a Mass Relay capable of connecting to the Milky Way. They could have perhaps sent everyone in the AI on the one ship instead of one the 4 Arks, but they probably didn't want to do that in case something happened to the Nexus... better to split one's eggs among a few different baskets. They probably made the Arks species specific because of the different requirements different species would have for being in stasis. Because that's from where the dreadnought power comes from. How fast can it accelerate a piece of metal. Longer guns wil fire more powerfull warheads because they will be able to accelerate them more, hence they will move faster. And cutscenes are cutscenes, they are not made to make sense, but to look cool. Dreadnoughts of Earth have nothing to do with Mass Effect ones, only the name are the same. And the Geth close range battle was just one skirmish in which the Quarians tried to overwhelm it. That's not the main strength of a dreadnought. it was not meant to fight in close range. That's why the Quarians probably thought it was a good idea to try that, only to be destroyed by their anti fighter lasers. But that's only make bigger dreadnoughts a better idea, since it shows that it can be very effective in close range combat as well.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2016 14:45:17 GMT
Where do you get that a bigger gun is necessarily a faster gun?... because it's not. If you watch the Earth battle, you can clearly see that the big guns are the slower ones in that battle. Even the Reaper lasers are very slow-firing weapons, needing to recharge between hits. That's why Shepard can take the one down on Rannoch. Also, iRL dreadnoughts on earth did not carry smaller ships (other than boats that would just take on survivors if a ship was sunk or deploy a boarding party). Deploying smaller warships was not their purpose. The purpose of an aircraft carrier IS to deploy aircraft... so, as I said, it's made larger so that it can carry more aircraft and crew... not to make it be able to fire directly at enemy locations from a distance farther away. The geth dreadnought did carry geth fighters. The comments about the fire power to the dreadnought DO NOT talk about longer range encounters. They DO mention "close combat."... so, again, your analogy is out of whack on that front. Also, I don't think the Destiny Ascension was the Asari's only dreadnought. I don't think the geth dreadnought was their only one or that the Turians, etc. didn't have dreadnoughts of their own that we never see. During the battle for earth, another ship shaped like the Destiny Ascension is seen farther back in the pack of fleets. They built the Nexus as large as they could so that it could house 100,000+ people once they got to Andromeda. There is also the possibility that the size was needed so that it could eventually be completed as a Mass Relay capable of connecting to the Milky Way. They could have perhaps sent everyone in the AI on the one ship instead of one the 4 Arks, but they probably didn't want to do that in case something happened to the Nexus... better to split one's eggs among a few different baskets. They probably made the Arks species specific because of the different requirements different species would have for being in stasis. Because that's from where the dreadnought power comes from. How fast can it accelerate a piece of metal. Longer guns wil fire more powerfull warheads because they will be able to accelerate them more, hence they will move faster. And cutscenes are cutscenes, they are not made to make sense, but to look cool. Dreadnoughts of Earth have nothing to do with Mass Effect ones, only the name are the same. And the Geth close range battle was just one skirmish in which the Quarians tried to overwhelm it. That's not the main strength of a dreadnought. it was not meant to fight in close range. That's why the Quarians probably thought it was a good idea to try that, only to be destroyed by their anti fighter lasers. But that's only make bigger dreadnoughts a better idea, since it shows that it can be very effective in close range combat as well. By faster, you're talking about projectile speed... not fire rate. OK, however, the ratio between length and projectile speed is not an infinite thing and probably doesn't apply well after the projectile goes faster than light speed... which it would need to do if one was going to fire on a ship from a great distance, since they could track the incoming projectile and move out of the way or intercept it otherwise. There is no point in making a gun longer once the length reaches a point where it fires the projectile at maximum velocity anyways. Also, the IRL dreadnought vs. the carrier has everything to do with Mass Effect. The Treaty of Farixen mirrors the Washington Naval Treaty signed at the end of WWI. Carriers were not subject to the same restrictions as dreadnoughts under the Washington Treaty and they are, likewise, not subject to the restrictions set out in the mythical Treaty of Farixen. So, IRL, countries invested in carriers rather than dreadnoughts after WWI, so it seems reasonable that the navies of the ME Universe are investing more money in carriers than dreadnoughts as a means of getting around Farixen.
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Post by azarhal on Dec 14, 2016 15:14:39 GMT
His point isn't about effectiveness of the weapons themselves. It's about the fact that the larger the ship, the slower it can turn to position itself to fire or do evasive maneuvers while being an easier target to hit for smaller ships. They are very much large portable stationary turrets...and that's basically what ships larger than a frigate are in Mass Effect already going by ME1/ME3 cutscenes. If you want turrets with big guns, build planetary/moon defense platforms. That's like saying we don't need aircraft carriers, we can build airports on land. Aircraft carriers are not dreadnoughts, they are mobile airports. They also have an escort of much smaller ships because they are weak defensively. If you want to bring big stationary guns to a fight, you can put them on a platform that you tow around, you don't need a dreadnought for that. In fact, that's what they did with the Crucible.
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Post by SofNascimento on Dec 14, 2016 15:20:46 GMT
That's like saying we don't need aircraft carriers, we can build airports on land. Aircraft carriers are not dreadnoughts, they are mobile airports. They also have an escort of much smaller ships because they are weak defensively. If you want to bring big stationary guns to a fight, you can put them on a platform that you tow around, you don't need a dreadnought for that. In fact, that's what they did with the Crucible. But that is pretty much what dreadnoughts are. A plataform that carry a huge gun.
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Post by SofNascimento on Dec 14, 2016 15:25:00 GMT
Also, the IRL dreadnought vs. the carrier has everything to do with Mass Effect. The Treaty of Farixen mirrors the Washington Naval Treaty signed at the end of WWI. Carriers were not subject to the same restrictions as dreadnoughts under the Washington Treaty and they are, likewise, not subject to the restrictions set out in the mythical Treaty of Farixen. So, IRL, countries invested in carriers rather than dreadnoughts after WWI, so it seems reasonable that the navies of the ME Universe are investing more money in carriers than dreadnoughts as a means of getting around Farixen. But dreadnoughts in Mass Effect are not the same. They have a different function, a different armament. We don't have many dreadnoughts today, if any at all, because they are obsotele. In Mass Effect they are the exact opposite, they are the major weapons of war. But if you believe they are indeed the same, just change the question. Why not build bigger aircraft carriers?
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Post by azarhal on Dec 14, 2016 15:46:00 GMT
Aircraft carriers are not dreadnoughts, they are mobile airports. They also have an escort of much smaller ships because they are weak defensively. If you want to bring big stationary guns to a fight, you can put them on a platform that you tow around, you don't need a dreadnought for that. In fact, that's what they did with the Crucible. But that is pretty much what dreadnoughts are. A plataform that carry a huge gun. A platform is cheaper, doesn't require accommodation for a crew and can be remotely operated or even automated. It's just need to be towed to move it where you wants. A Dreadnought will usually host a fleet command center, has provisions for long trips and many marines on it.
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Post by SofNascimento on Dec 14, 2016 15:49:01 GMT
But that is pretty much what dreadnoughts are. A plataform that carry a huge gun. A platform is cheaper, doesn't require accommodation for a crew and can be remotely operated or even automated. It's just need to be towed to move it where you wants. A Dreadnought will usually host a fleet command center, has provisions for long trips and many marines on it. Ok, so why not build them?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2016 16:06:53 GMT
Also, the IRL dreadnought vs. the carrier has everything to do with Mass Effect. The Treaty of Farixen mirrors the Washington Naval Treaty signed at the end of WWI. Carriers were not subject to the same restrictions as dreadnoughts under the Washington Treaty and they are, likewise, not subject to the restrictions set out in the mythical Treaty of Farixen. So, IRL, countries invested in carriers rather than dreadnoughts after WWI, so it seems reasonable that the navies of the ME Universe are investing more money in carriers than dreadnoughts as a means of getting around Farixen. But dreadnoughts in Mass Effect are not the same. They have a different function, a different armament. We don't have many dreadnoughts today, if any at all, because they are obsotele. In Mass Effect they are the exact opposite, they are the major weapons of war. But if you believe they are indeed the same, just change the question. Why not build bigger aircraft carriers? You're still not following. The Treaty of Farixen limits the number of dreadnoughts a species can have based on the number that the Turians have. However, the other races want more ships overall, so they build carriers (defined under the treaty as large ships that DON'T have that big gun). Technology advancements, as a result, go into those carrier class ships and the dreadnought tech just sort of stagnates. It is part of the reason why the dreadnought became obsolete IRL. The other factor is that at longer ranges, your projectile (unless it is guided to change course) can be tracked for a longer period of time... giving the target a bigger opportunity to either destroy your projectile or move out of its path. There would be a threshhold where fighting from farther away would become a liability, not an advantage. It's a balancing act... what is optimum is not always the largest projectile fired from the farthest distance away. Why not build bigger aircraft carriers?... because, again, you want to build more aircraft carriers so that you can spread your forces over a larger area and deploy them more efficiently to locations near where the carrier is located. You have to consider that they may have to defend more than one location and those locations may be very far apart from each other... so, you would station your carriers in different parts of the galaxy so that the nearby ones could respond quickly and then, if necessary, you could pull in the ones from farther away to reinforce the fighters already engaged in the battle. It's more about balancing size vs. speed of deployment than shear firepower.
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Post by Sartoz on Dec 14, 2016 16:09:38 GMT
*´¨) ¸.•´¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨) (¸.•´ (¸.•` ¤ Mass Effect Andromeda
One item not discussed is the weapon types brought to bear in any given fleet to fleet battle.
An enemy fleet with solely Dreadnoughts with smaller support ships can be matched with our own fleet of a mix complement of missile and energy weapons ships plus fleet carriers with some cruisers and destroyers for support. Those enemy Ds can be pounded with a barrage of mix missile types designed to confuse and or overwhelm sensors and fixed point defenses from long range and safe from counter battery fire from the Ds. Carrier craft can also engage at this time. Once those Ds are taken care of, ships designed for close range combat (ie: mostly beam weapons) can move in.
Now, I don't remember missiles used in ME games but they are an obvious weapon platform. Also, if in the ME universe, small = better agility a Dreadnought is just a sitting duck vs missile and carrier craft engagement.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 14, 2016 17:10:41 GMT
I'm serious-ish. The point is, if the Arks and the Nexus can be "privately funded", then from a financial and technological perspective, there is no reason why bigger dreadnoughts shouldn't exist.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 14, 2016 17:18:47 GMT
But dreadnoughts in Mass Effect are not the same. They have a different function, a different armament. We don't have many dreadnoughts today, if any at all, because they are obsotele. In Mass Effect they are the exact opposite, they are the major weapons of war. But if you believe they are indeed the same, just change the question. Why not build bigger aircraft carriers? You're still not following. The Treaty of Farixen limits the number of dreadnoughts a species can have based on the number that the Turians have. However, the other races want more ships overall, so they build carriers (defined under the treaty as large ships that DON'T have that big gun). Technology advancements, as a result, go into those carrier class ships and the dreadnought tech just sort of stagnates. It is part of the reason why the dreadnought became obsolete IRL. The other factor is that at longer ranges, your projectile (unless it is guided to change course) can be tracked for a longer period of time... giving the target a bigger opportunity to either destroy your projectile or move out of its path. There would be a threshhold where fighting from farther away would become a liability, not an advantage. It's a balancing act... what is optimum is not always the largest projectile fired from the farthest distance away. Why not build bigger aircraft carriers?... because, again, you want to build more aircraft carriers so that you can spread your forces over a larger area and deploy them more efficiently to locations near where the carrier is located. You have to consider that they may have to defend more than one location and those locations may be very far apart from each other... so, you would station your carriers in different parts of the galaxy so that the nearby ones could respond quickly and then, if necessary, you could pull in the ones from farther away to reinforce the fighters already engaged in the battle. It's more about balancing size vs. speed of deployment than shear firepower. I imagine smaller, more agile spacecraft would be harder to target, let them get in close enough to fire an energy weapon or a disruptor torpedo. Dreadnoughts are only good for long-range combat. And preferably stationary targets.
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Post by SofNascimento on Dec 14, 2016 18:03:24 GMT
But dreadnoughts in Mass Effect are not the same. They have a different function, a different armament. We don't have many dreadnoughts today, if any at all, because they are obsotele. In Mass Effect they are the exact opposite, they are the major weapons of war. But if you believe they are indeed the same, just change the question. Why not build bigger aircraft carriers? You're still not following. The Treaty of Farixen limits the number of dreadnoughts a species can have based on the number that the Turians have. However, the other races want more ships overall, so they build carriers (defined under the treaty as large ships that DON'T have that big gun). Technology advancements, as a result, go into those carrier class ships and the dreadnought tech just sort of stagnates. It is part of the reason why the dreadnought became obsolete IRL. The other factor is that at longer ranges, your projectile (unless it is guided to change course) can be tracked for a longer period of time... giving the target a bigger opportunity to either destroy your projectile or move out of its path. There would be a threshhold where fighting from farther away would become a liability, not an advantage. It's a balancing act... what is optimum is not always the largest projectile fired from the farthest distance away. Why not build bigger aircraft carriers?... because, again, you want to build more aircraft carriers so that you can spread your forces over a larger area and deploy them more efficiently to locations near where the carrier is located. You have to consider that they may have to defend more than one location and those locations may be very far apart from each other... so, you would station your carriers in different parts of the galaxy so that the nearby ones could respond quickly and then, if necessary, you could pull in the ones from farther away to reinforce the fighters already engaged in the battle. It's more about balancing size vs. speed of deployment than shear firepower. Dreadnoughts never became obsolete in the Mass Effect universe. You're projecting real life history into the Mass Effect universe without any source of evidence to support it. About your two points they have merits, but have no little base in the Mass Effect universe to be proper answer to this question. There is nothing that says dreadnoughts reached an optimal size, or that a bigger, faster gun would not be worthy it. Considering battles in the ME universe open with dreadnoughts firing, having one that can fire for farther away seems a very good idea. And the aircraft point is a valid one too. But if we look to real life, carriers tend to be quite big, as their strength is proportional to the amount of aircrafts it can carry. It's reasonable to expect that there is an certain size that becomes to big, but we do not know if that was already reached in the ME universe.
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