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Post by vortok on Dec 20, 2016 20:43:42 GMT
Oh boy, I'm sure you haven't seen one of these before.
Heavy (handed) symbolism ahead. Those that staunchly stick to literal interpretations may want to turn back now. We going off the deep end.
Control = Determinism Destroy = Nuh-uh, Free Will. Synthesis = Fine line between them. It’s right there in the name. Choose your Fate. Also, it’s holistic rather than reductionism. Refuse = Analysis paralysis. Can’t decide. Makes somebody else handle it. Nothing gets truly resolved.
Indoctrination ends in Control for anyone that isn’t a Shepard. Only a Shepard has the potential to experience it without being overwhelmed by it.
Shepard’s Spectre status gives the right to decide on behalf of the entirety of Council space.
So I strongly support Synthesis. I found the endings quite abrupt initially, and kinda went with my gut (Adept FemShep, mostly Paragon) to choose green, as I thought it was the only one that breaks the old cycle. Not interested in postponing or deflecting the responsibility to someone else. Mess was big enough already, and my understanding of Shepard was a person that didn’t want or need someone else to handle problems that could be addressed right there on the spot. I've picked up some moderately decent symbolism proficiency, compared to the me of a few years ago, and now I quite like the ending. Both in world (plot) and real world (author) references have a purpose. It was abrupt because the writers sacrificed logical consistency for artistic vision. They could perceive of the Shepard, but were not yet strong enough to become one themselves. Thus, their creation contained flaws. This is to be expected.
I’ve seen speculation that Starchild was aiming for Synthesis. It’s just always ended up as Control (aka, how he exists). He has attempted endless variations, but can’t seem to find a solution on his own. As the Albert Einstein quote goes: “We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.” Starchild had reached a stalemate and decided to yield to another’s will.
I agree that Synthesis seems to be what Starchild is ultimately aiming for (but can’t do himself, as he’s outside the cycle). He guides the Reapers, but they haven't managed it yet. This is basically about the person that makes the choice being able to see beyond the immediate, to see the order of the universe playing out. In a word: Fate. As Control basically turns a person into Starchild, it is essentially someone that couldn't see through indoctrination and just submitted to it instead. Eventually the cycle restarts itself. Destroy is to reject Fate. Whether as an allergic reaction to the thought of no free will or otherwise. Synthesis is a result of seeing what indoctrination/the order of the universe is going towards (the Dao, of the Dao de Jing, for example). The Reapers are just an agent within. The gaze can pierce further than their existence. When things are perceived at that level, then the plan makes sense. Factors that lead to good, positive things full of beauty and splendor all seem to align - and it just so happens to be what Starchild has been trying to achieve. The Shepard can see what indoctrination is trying to do, but is strong enough to not be swayed. Shepard can still choose whatever option desired (yes, that's a have my cake and eat it too stance about free will and determinism).
About war assets. Having a single option is based on the Collector Base decision at the end of 2. Not importing a save gives both options. As war assets increase, it is worth noting that there is a certain level where Control doesn't damage Earth, but Destroy still inflicts heavy damage. This implies that Destroy is less desirable and sends progress back further. There can be the view that if current progress is rewinded enough, variations that were cut off by the current path could then be explored. If Shepard survives in a Destroy then yes, having no cybernetics means that he's kinda screwed. Scarred, crippled, and constant pain will be his life. No more tech to help him.
It can be further pondered if taken to a meta level of Mass Effect stories within Mass Effect stories. Like how a player can have multiple saves/playthroughs. Or all the players collectively talking about it with each other, like this. Each individual is a Commander Shepard. The one that guides them is the Shepard Commander. This is why Legion uses the name that he does, and refers to Shepard in that way. It is why, when the Geth reached a stalemate, they turned to Shepard (an outside entity) to make the decision. It is why Starchild allows Shepard to choose. Starchild in one level is Harbinger in the other. Trying to solve issues vs expressing frustration at the situation.
In any case, I currently have the hunch that Shepard surviving basically depends on what meta Shepard does, which influences the third Shepard above that. If the middle option is Destroy then Shepard continues to be alone on the Citadel - severed from outside existence even further. The Starchild of a Destroy is part of the Harbinger the next level up (Harbinger being a gestalt), driven by irritation and anger at the ever increasing unresolved issues. If Control, Shepard becomes part of Harbinger (pain etc. drives him mad over time) while middle Shep is Starchild, of course. If Synthesis, he is Joker. Not completely healed, but functional, alive, and not really suffering compared to his previous state. He knows how to navigate and fly the ship, because he has experience, but the new Shepard makes the decisions. Middle Shepard melds into the new Shepard (I think...), furthering his conviction. This process is mainly intended to go up, but can go down for two main reasons: obtaining an initial result that breaks the cycles, or rescuing a stranded Destroy Shepard and others in that universe that were severed with him. Things that weren’t reachable during the first ascent. It goes up and down, like a wave. The rescue option is akin to fancy archaeology (or the Reapers providing knowledge from previous civilizations). Refuse plays out as reset and go again, I suppose (stalemate continues). Starchild put all that time and effort into a Shepard, who finally made it to the Catalyst… and Shepard throws a tantrum and makes Starchild start again. So be it. I’d be irritated too if I’d put so much effort into someone, trusted them with my very existence, and they just flip me off. Has to go back and reincarnate a new Shepard through the Lazarus Project. Again. Should that repeatedly fail, has to go even further back and make a new Shepard. Trying endless variations until finally stumbling upon something that works.
The Leviathans are the symbol of the original problem: selfish pride. They believe themselves just, yet see all but themselves as slaves and tools for the betterment of the Leviathans. They think themselves kind because they look after their thralls, but their kindness involves culling other species simply because those species, as a whole, experienced lowered ability to efficiently serve the whims of the Leviathans. It traces back to their superiority complex and lack of humility. They initiated Control. Starchild was made with their conceit built in. When Starchild pointed out that they were part of the problem, and Destroyed many of their number in the process, they chose to Refuse to face the problem and ran away instead, believing that the situation would resolve itself on its own if they just waited long enough. Then they’d be able to resume their rightful place as the Apex species, or so their arrogance convinced (indoctrinated, even) themselves. They believed themselves to be at the Apex, yet found themselves isolated in the Deep.
The Catalyst made one progression past the Leviathans, however. While it still believed itself superior, it was aware that its current solution was imperfect. It allowed a tiny sliver of there being a chance of a better solution being possible - even if it could not enact it itself. If someone were able to manage the monumental task of getting close enough, then Starchild was willing to place its continued existence and very being into the hands of someone else. Allowing another to decide one’s fate is not a small level of trust, even if only bestowed upon a single individual. It presented its very best efforts, the three options, and then stepped back and yielded to the Shepard. Shepard in turn could decide to trust in the effort behind those options or he could decide he knew better and could do better. Control repeats the Leviathans pride in oneself. Destroy places higher value on the self, even to the abstract degree of sacrificing his own health for the sake of organics (what he identifies as - pro-human, anti-alien sentiments are just another manifestation). Again, self pride. Refuse spits on the trust given to Shepard. Believing that waiting long enough will produce the perfect solution (Ashley or Kaidan?). Analysis paralysis and unwillingness to accept outside aid. Synthesis reflects acceptance of what has been entrusted to her, valuing all things, humility while still being willing to make the hard choices to the best of her ability, trust in those that come after her, and a willingness to decrease so that others may decrease. Confidence in what has gotten her this far, yet also willing to let it all go.
The Leviathans showed an ability to revert and restore Collector’s to their previous state, even though thousands of years had passed. This is conceptual evidence that Shepard can be revived no matter which ending you choose, should those that come after wish to do so. A smaller scale of that happened in ME2, with Liara. She did not give up hope, but also did not try to do it all herself. She yielded to Cerberus, not knowing if they would try to corrupt and control the reborn Shepard or not. I saw one person mention that her dialogue about it, when questioned, is “Was I supposed to let my friend die?” To her, despite the traditional definition of death, Shepard had not quite died yet. The danger of it happening was very real, though. Different people are better at perceiving different aspects of reality. Where one uses the naked eye, another has a microscope and telescope available. To her perception, part of Shepard was not truly dead yet. Essentially, she’s the one that saved a crippled ME2 Shepard from the aftermath of experiencing a Destroy selection. That’s the nature of her bond.
A Shepard decision is a chain reaction - thus bouncing from relay to relay. Discussion of reasoning for the choices available, with eventual updates (or even changes) in stances reflects this. Changes are also depicted. No matter how convinced someone may be of something, at most they have to only be 99.99% sure. 100% is arrogance and shuts out outside perspective (Geth consensus stalemate). That tiny fraction of a percent must always be considered as a valid conclusion as well, which is part of Starchild’s brilliance. It must be allowed a voice. It might be both, or that the conclusion one was sure of is actually incorrect, upon examination from a new angle or with new information. Curing the genophage is such an overturning of a nigh unanimously held decision. Made possible by Shepard's support of Mordin's inner Shepard journey/decisions. The famous song(s)? Maybe an inner Joker. Hard for me to peer that far.
Some, after ruminating for quite some time about it, think that curing the genophage is insanity. Well, I always play on Insanity. Whether or not to cure it at that time in the story is a pretty great choice. It’s a mess that does need to be cleaned up eventually, but there’s no absolute right or wrong answer. Some things you can handle. Other things should be deferred to others.
The reversals of Legion's way of referencing Shepard as an alternative to the standard way, as well as how Anderson and the Illusive Man seem to swap colors at the end, also tie into this. Anderson is basically the ethical voice of what is right, but taken too far and trying to forcefully impose such sentiments can lead to severing something offensive to oneself ("you're dead to me" reaction). A logic, resource acquisition type like Illusive Man (think of what we could do if we had that!) ultimately desires to control and subjugate to their will. Their 100% belief warped their ability to see the end result, despite good intentions. The one that was right tried to brute force a logic solution, even though that’s not his area of expertise. TIM (or TIMmay, said like the South Park character) tried to force his views with unskilled appeals to emotion. Both tried their best to do what they thought was the best course of action. They should be viewed with compassion despite the inability in certain areas, for they are also a Shepard. There is something only they can handle, so we should endeavor to aid them. Whether the Crucible was real or in Shepard’s head is certainly up for interpretation. TIMmay and Anderson being reflections of Shepard’s inner selves is certainly valid. The wound appearing on both Anderson and Shepard, but opposite sides, looks like it could be related to staring into the mirror of the self. Could also just be a temporary blackout. That can happen if shot in the stomach.
Going by what we know of how our minds developed, emotions came first. Later came logic and conscious decision making. Destroy reverts to a more feral, primal state. Control rejects the old way in favor of the new. It sucks out the data and knowledge it believes important, based on its perception, but there are leftovers due to it being an imperfect solution. As Reapers require a Starchild, which requires a Control decision, that’s what the ground forces are, such as the husks. Devoid of reason. Asari are basically the specialists of emotional areas. Ditto for biotics in general. That’s why they’re Banshees: That much power still remains after what is deemed logically useful has been extracted. Biotic explosions have reduced influence on technology based shields for this reason. Brutes are similar, but more about what remains of a focus on the physical rather than the abstract.
There are instances of Synthesis and reversals playing out previously, on a smaller scale. The Quarians and the Geth are a good example. Taking the lens of logic vs emotion, the Geth are logic based machines while the Quarians are flesh and blood. In a reversal, the Geth are questioning their existence (Does this unit have a soul?) whereas the Quarians largely see them as just a collection of parts and circuits. This is essentially reductionism vs a holistic view (whole greater than the sum of its parts). Are the Geth sentient? Does the collective (Legion) have an identity different and distinct from all his internal processes? A simple description I read was that reductionism tends to reject holistic views, whereas a holistic perspective sees reductionism as a useful option, depending on the situation. It goes back and forth, like a wave. As a holistic entity, Legion also chose Synthesis. He sacrificed and dispersed himself for the betterment of his race. All converged for and yielded to one, and then one dispersed to all. He was basically a Spectre of Geth society - not dependent or chained to the will of the collective, yet still charged with caring for it. Shepard and Tali’s support of Legion makes that outcome possible. For extra fun, look up #42 of the Dao de Jing. Threads connecting everywhere. Also, ongoing reversal is the principle of AC compared to DC. If you want to argue with electrical energy that's fine, but good luck.
For that matter, Starchild is basically a Spectre of the Leviathans. He is tasked with solving a problem that they, with all their advanced technology and dominance, were unable to take care of themselves. He has a singular task and is allowed to explore virtually any option. Even killing many of the Leviathans was not enough for them to dismantle him - if they are capable of dealing with Reaper forces with ease, they could likely erase the Catalyst if they so chose. Their ambition for greater heights prevents that. Perhaps that’s why Starchild allowed Shepard’s input, much like Legion did. Despite their differences, they were both Spectres of their respective societies and could speak as equals.
Speaking of which, Shepard's Spectre status gives the right to make for/force on others a decision about the Crucible. Council space is ruled by laws and the Council itself. By the representative power that the people delegated to them, the Council bestowed upon Shepard (and other Spectres, including a second human whose journey overlaps) the right to act outside and above the law, according to his own judgment. He is expected to hold in mind the impact on everyone, not just his personal whims. Spectre status is both the freedom to not have to do everything by the book and it is a breaker of stalemates. There may be those outside Council space (or that don't have a voice on the Council) that don't agree with what happened. A decision was made, and there is always aftermath. Dealing with that is basically akin to a different form of genophage. They did the best they could with what was available and then entrusted the rest to those that came after them.
All of this has happened before. All of this will happen again. With a lot of work and little luck, we just might be able to make this the last. Do I think Synthesis escapes the cycles? No. There are always cycles. I think it represents the best option to break out of the current cycle and achieve progress. Perhaps in the future, unsynthesizing certain entities will be the solution.
As for anyone that disagrees: The Council can kiss my ass!
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Dec 20, 2016 23:30:10 GMT
Fairly deep analyze for something so many people simply or over simply.
Synthesis is the best ending because both Organic and Synthetic have their own strengths and weakness. Combining them into a new form of life breaks both free of their old chains and into something new.
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Post by themikefest on Dec 21, 2016 2:45:19 GMT
destroy is best since reapers are gone and the galaxy can have a future without that threat
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Post by dmc1001 on Dec 21, 2016 3:48:05 GMT
I don't necessarily disagree with the premise here but I'm admittedly selfish. I'm invested in Shepard more than I am anything else. I want Shepard to survive and I want Shepard to have a happily-ever-after with the LI of choice (mostly Kaidan). Synthesis doesn't allow for it. Now, if I could give a blood sample to the Catalyst to bring Synthesis about, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I know it takes away a choice factor, but I also know it removes the organic/synthetic war (since we now have something like synthetics that mimic the fundamentals of organics) and allows for EDI and the geth to survive. Unfortunately, BioWare made it a very narrow set of circumstances that allow Shepard to live.
Beyond that, I fundamentally distrust the Reapers. Sure, all of the choices (except Refuse) are Catalyst directed, so in a sense the Reapers give us all the options. However, experience shows me the Reapers are not to be trusted, not even dead. The Reapers are too powerful to allow to roam the universe free. Any scenario in which that's the case is dangerous. The only surviving Reaper scenario that could work is Control, and then only to eventually pit them against the Leviathan who are sure to try to attack us.
I get the philosophy and symbolism. I tried Synthesis once and overall it's a fantastic ending. But no Shepard and Reapers are basically off the hook for the uncountable number of murders they have committed over the past billion years. Even if the deaths were "necessary" I can't abide by the terror they instilled in those sentients over that time. Doesn't fly with me.
I appreciate your well thought out post but I don't think I could ever come to terms with it. Given that in this scenario everyone is basically synthetic, does that mean the Milky Way Galaxy would inevitably go to war with the Andromeda Galaxy?
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Post by Darth Dennis on Dec 21, 2016 4:55:17 GMT
The "don't play after Rannoch" ending is my favourite.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Dec 21, 2016 6:23:38 GMT
I don't necessarily disagree with the premise here but I'm admittedly selfish. I'm invested in Shepard more than I am anything else. I want Shepard to survive and I want Shepard to have a happily-ever-after with the LI of choice (mostly Kaidan). Synthesis doesn't allow for it. Now, if I could give a blood sample to the Catalyst to bring Synthesis about, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I know it takes away a choice factor, but I also know it removes the organic/synthetic war (since we now have something like synthetics that mimic the fundamentals of organics) and allows for EDI and the geth to survive. Unfortunately, BioWare made it a very narrow set of circumstances that allow Shepard to live. Beyond that, I fundamentally distrust the Reapers. Sure, all of the choices (except Refuse) are Catalyst directed, so in a sense the Reapers give us all the options. However, experience shows me the Reapers are not to be trusted, not even dead. The Reapers are too powerful to allow to roam the universe free. Any scenario in which that's the case is dangerous. The only surviving Reaper scenario that could work is Control, and then only to eventually pit them against the Leviathan who are sure to try to attack us. I get the philosophy and symbolism. I tried Synthesis once and overall it's a fantastic ending. But no Shepard and Reapers are basically off the hook for the uncountable number of murders they have committed over the past billion years. Even if the deaths were "necessary" I can't abide by the terror they instilled in those sentients over that time. Doesn't fly with me. I appreciate your well thought out post but I don't think I could ever come to terms with it. Given that in this scenario everyone is basically synthetic, does that mean the Milky Way Galaxy would inevitably go to war with the Andromeda Galaxy? Reapers show no reason to distrust. They were very open and honest with you. The only time a Reaper lied is implied with the Geth. But we don't know the full details of the deal the Geth made. And Legion was shown to be able to lie though the omission of facts. Oh which I blame Joker for. Destroy causes millions of deaths (billions if you saved/made peace with Geth) and are doing exactly what the Reapers did because you think it is best. I find it ironic and odd that people seem to use Destroy option as some sort of moral high ground punishment for the Rapers. Punishing Genocide with more Genocide isn't exactly a moral high ground. Particularly when there are a lot of innocent victims mixed in. And I would hardly call having them help rebuild society, share their knowledge with the rest of the galaxy and generally be helpful and productive members of the galaxy as "getting off the hook". Not as if right after the change they wave good bye and head off towards Andromeda Galaxy to see what is up there.
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Post by dmc1001 on Dec 21, 2016 6:51:59 GMT
My comment of Milky Way vs Andromeda was specifically meant as synthetic vs organic. In a scenario where the quarians survived over the geth I'm failing to see the millions who died. With high EMS, the death counts are low. The Reapers and husks die or are disintegrated. Organics, not so much.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2016 13:02:51 GMT
All the endings have some horrible consequences to them. Barla von pegged it right at the start - ME is a game you simply can NEVER win. Taking Saren's advice, therefore, is the best move: The endings "cannot be stopped. Do not mire yourself in pointless" discussions about them.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Dec 21, 2016 15:31:09 GMT
My comment of Milky Way vs Andromeda was specifically meant as synthetic vs organic. In a scenario where the quarians survived over the geth I'm failing to see the millions who died. With high EMS, the death counts are low. The Reapers and husks die or are disintegrated. Organics, not so much. The game sort of glosses over it but a galaxy wide surge that messes with technology. Even short term and can be repaired has a lot of destruction implied in it. Power generators over loading and exploding, VI controlled transit systems crashing killing people, people in intensive care or under operation in hospitals. Anyone in a ME field on a planet with hostile environment/high gravity will be killed rather quickly and painfully. From the poisonous atmosphere or high gravity literally crushing their insides. Ships and satellites falling from the sky impacting on the planet as their systems fail and can no longer them themselves in the air. Communication across the galaxy would be utterly destroyed besides any QEC left in existence and those would be damaged and need to be repaired. They would need to relay the buoy system they use to transfer communications across the galaxy. Bands of Pirates and Slavers could operate at will for months if not years on the outer colonies as they limited post war Military and lack of Relays makes it impossible for relief aid to be sent to them. At least until the military is rebuild and Relays repaired which would take decades to fully repair entire Relay system and rebuild military up to pre war levels. Particularly since races will inevitably focus on rebuilding their home planet first before expanding outwards. Any colony not completely self sufficient will collapse either the entire colony slowly dying off or possible devolving into some Mad Max system system as they fight over the few remaining resources they need to live. And long term nothing changes. The same arrogance that the Leviathan showed, the same I know what is best and will kill anyone or anything that isn't what I think is best the Quarians showed. All still exists. Synthetic will still be look at as tools for use only nothing more nothing less. And if they get uppity then wipe them out because they are nothing but an overly complicated laptop who exits to serve me. Going though an entire war that killed billions and learning nothing about why it happened in the first place. That is why I find it odd and funny when people use Destroy option like it is some moral high ground delivering divine justice to punish the Reapers for their transgressions. The other options besides Refuse (because Refuse is for stupid) can be taken to not be fairy tale endings full of happiness and unicorn's farting rainbows and what not. But they generally lack the same kind of moral authority mentality that Destroy seems to have. They are more pragmatic in how they rationalized why those options are best.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 21, 2016 20:00:31 GMT
Destroy: Would Be Rude To Say "Genocide" The "new solution" is to become the Reapers ourselves. For millions of years they stopped the "inevitable" robot uprising by destroying "helping organics ascend" before they could create synthetics that would destroy them. Now the organics have to Final Solution synthetics themselves before they get too uppity. Control: The Evils of Free Will Organics and synthetics will never play nice together, so we need an Overlord to rule us and keep everyone playing nice. We are unworthy of finding our own path. Synthesis: Utopia Justifies The Means Organics are untermensch. We must undergo forced genetic alteration in order to save ourselves and become a true Master Race, worthy of existence. Once we accept our Greenness, though, we will be happier, smarter, stronger, and live forever. So it's all good. Refuse: Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies: We p*ssed off the writers for calling them on their BS, and they got passive-aggressive on us. What more is there to say?
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Dec 21, 2016 21:43:57 GMT
Refuse: Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies: We p*ssed off the writers for calling them on their BS, and they got passive-aggressive on us. What more is there to say? That is and always will be the single most childish statement ever made on this forum.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 21, 2016 22:48:58 GMT
Refuse: Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies: We p*ssed off the writers for calling them on their BS, and they got passive-aggressive on us. What more is there to say? That is and always will be the single most childish statement ever made on this forum.
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Post by dmc1001 on Dec 22, 2016 2:45:27 GMT
That is why I find it odd and funny when people use Destroy option like it is some moral high ground delivering divine justice to punish the Reapers for their transgressions. The other options besides Refuse (because Refuse is for stupid) can be taken to not be fairy tale endings full of happiness and unicorn's farting rainbows and what not. But they generally lack the same kind of moral authority mentality that Destroy seems to have. They are more pragmatic in how they rationalized why those options are best. And yet, I continue to be okay with it. I did specify in my first post on this thread that my primary reason is wanting Shepard to live happily ever after with Kaidan. The rest is secondary. So, no, this isn't about convincing me, or understanding where you're coming from, etc etc. Nor is it about a moral high ground. It's about a happy ending for Shepard with a touch of vengeance. And maybe you glossed over it but I said I'd be fine with Synthesis, despite the Reapers surviving, if Shepard could live. You don't have to like my viewpoint. I really don't care.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Dec 22, 2016 7:21:52 GMT
That is why I find it odd and funny when people use Destroy option like it is some moral high ground delivering divine justice to punish the Reapers for their transgressions. The other options besides Refuse (because Refuse is for stupid) can be taken to not be fairy tale endings full of happiness and unicorn's farting rainbows and what not. But they generally lack the same kind of moral authority mentality that Destroy seems to have. They are more pragmatic in how they rationalized why those options are best. And yet, I continue to be okay with it. I did specify in my first post on this thread that my primary reason is wanting Shepard to live happily ever after with Kaidan. The rest is secondary. So, no, this isn't about convincing me, or understanding where you're coming from, etc etc. Nor is it about a moral high ground. It's about a happy ending for Shepard with a touch of vengeance. And maybe you glossed over it but I said I'd be fine with Synthesis, despite the Reapers surviving, if Shepard could live. You don't have to like my viewpoint. I really don't care. Yes people will allow a surprising number of actions that are generally considered bad or terrible by the larger population if they think it is justified in their own mind. Dylann Roof comes to mind rather quickly as a living example of that fact. It isn't about convincing you about anything it is about the logic behind your reasons and what that ultimately represents. Many people use destroy as that moral high ground to punish the Reapers for their actions. Even though that act makes them no different from them. Matching genocide with genocide even when presented with other options. Because they feel their moral standing allows them to pass judgement and wipe out the Reapers. Yours how ever still represents a common theme for people who pick Destroy as their main choice. Selfishness. In your case rather then the whole moral vengeance factor being the over riding reason yours is wanting Shepard to live a happily ever after. Short term gain for far more potential long term loss. At least compared to Control and Synthesis endings. Their potential long term loss is far less then Destroy. Other options are only valid choices if Shepard lives. And that is the interesting thing. The reoccurring themes behind the logic of each choice. And since Destroy has a lot more....enthusiastic players supporting it compared to the other choices. I've seen a lot of the same themes show up again and again. And that is why I still find these ending topics fascinating.
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Post by dmc1001 on Dec 23, 2016 4:48:14 GMT
Yeah, my original post up near the top outright stated "I'm admittedly selfish". No new ground broken with what you've written.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Dec 23, 2016 6:38:06 GMT
Yeah, my original post up near the top outright stated "I'm admittedly selfish". No new ground broken with what you've written. Breaking new ground is debatable depending on how you want to look at it. Providing more proof to back up the statement how ever it is still there. And while there are always exceptions to the rules it continues a theme with the game, the endings and mentality of players who choose them. Particularly when again destroy option is popular with players who generally have a negative view of ME 3. Even though all the sins ME 3 is guilty of the other ME games are guilty of as well. And if all those problems make ME 3 a bad game then it is a surprise they were able to swim though the same sewage ME 1 and 2 threw at them. It has slowly become an interest of mine. And since interests are free I've been able to indulge in it across many games. Runescape and the PvP issue is another fascinating one. Population of players who regularly engage in that part of the game has dropped to almost non existent numbers. All the existing ones refuse to hear or support any changing of the same system that has existed since the game was released in 2001. Even thought the game it self has evolved significantly different from that time. Jagex who seems to have had their balls removed seems afraid to do anything that might cause even a hundred players to quit so they keep releasing updates this super minority of players likes. And when you bring up the issues PvM has caused that indirectly effects PvP and it's popularity in the over all hierarchy of what to do in the game. They also refuse to alter the fact that players to to damn strong for anything that isn't a boss. And even that part is questionable. Their house is falling apart around them and they still refuse to even question current set up of the game might be the problem. Blaming other players and Jagex for lack of popularity.
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Post by dmc1001 on Dec 23, 2016 22:38:29 GMT
Yeah, my original post up near the top outright stated "I'm admittedly selfish". No new ground broken with what you've written. Breaking new ground is debatable depending on how you want to look at it. Providing more proof to back up the statement how ever it is still there. And while there are always exceptions to the rules it continues a theme with the game, the endings and mentality of players who choose them. Particularly when again destroy option is popular with players who generally have a negative view of ME 3. Even though all the sins ME 3 is guilty of the other ME games are guilty of as well. And if all those problems make ME 3 a bad game then it is a Just to be clear, I don't have a negative view of ME3. I love that game. Love the entire trilogy.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Dec 24, 2016 0:57:28 GMT
Breaking new ground is debatable depending on how you want to look at it. Providing more proof to back up the statement how ever it is still there. And while there are always exceptions to the rules it continues a theme with the game, the endings and mentality of players who choose them. Particularly when again destroy option is popular with players who generally have a negative view of ME 3. Even though all the sins ME 3 is guilty of the other ME games are guilty of as well. And if all those problems make ME 3 a bad game then it is a Just to be clear, I don't have a negative view of ME3. I love that game. Love the entire trilogy. I know. It is a generalization.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2016 1:36:23 GMT
I don't necessarily disagree with the premise here but I'm admittedly selfish. I'm invested in Shepard more than I am anything else. I want Shepard to survive and I want Shepard to have a happily-ever-after with the LI of choice (mostly Kaidan). Synthesis doesn't allow for it. Now, if I could give a blood sample to the Catalyst to bring Synthesis about, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I know it takes away a choice factor, but I also know it removes the organic/synthetic war (since we now have something like synthetics that mimic the fundamentals of organics) and allows for EDI and the geth to survive. Unfortunately, BioWare made it a very narrow set of circumstances that allow Shepard to live. Beyond that, I fundamentally distrust the Reapers. Sure, all of the choices (except Refuse) are Catalyst directed, so in a sense the Reapers give us all the options. However, experience shows me the Reapers are not to be trusted, not even dead. The Reapers are too powerful to allow to roam the universe free. Any scenario in which that's the case is dangerous. The only surviving Reaper scenario that could work is Control, and then only to eventually pit them against the Leviathan who are sure to try to attack us. I get the philosophy and symbolism. I tried Synthesis once and overall it's a fantastic ending. But no Shepard and Reapers are basically off the hook for the uncountable number of murders they have committed over the past billion years. Even if the deaths were "necessary" I can't abide by the terror they instilled in those sentients over that time. Doesn't fly with me. I appreciate your well thought out post but I don't think I could ever come to terms with it. Given that in this scenario everyone is basically synthetic, does that mean the Milky Way Galaxy would inevitably go to war with the Andromeda Galaxy? Reapers show no reason to distrust. They were very open and honest with you. The only time a Reaper lied is implied with the Geth. But we don't know the full details of the deal the Geth made. And Legion was shown to be able to lie though the omission of facts. Oh which I blame Joker for. Destroy causes millions of deaths (billions if you saved/made peace with Geth) and are doing exactly what the Reapers did because you think it is best. I find it ironic and odd that people seem to use Destroy option as some sort of moral high ground punishment for the Rapers. Punishing Genocide with more Genocide isn't exactly a moral high ground. Particularly when there are a lot of innocent victims mixed in. And I would hardly call having them help rebuild society, share their knowledge with the rest of the galaxy and generally be helpful and productive members of the galaxy as "getting off the hook". Not as if right after the change they wave good bye and head off towards Andromeda Galaxy to see what is up there. The Reapers have annihilated billions by the time Shepard has that conversation with the Catalyst, and that's only from the current cycle. The Leviathan DLC establishes that they've been at it for at least a billion years. At an average of one mass extinction cycle every 50,000 years, the Reapers may have destroyed galactic civilization 20,000 times by the start of Mass Effect 1. Each one of those galactic civilizations that were destroyed, with access to the same mass effect technology, would have presumably colonized a similarly large (if not larger) swath of the galaxy, and also had a population that numbered in the trillions. The total number of people killed by the Reapers would likely dwarf the total number of people who ever lived on Earth, in all of it's history. Like both the current galactic civilization and the Protheans, presumably most of those destroyed civilizations would have consisted of multiple species. Just for fun, let's assume it averages it out to four space-faring species per cycle, which is probably conservative considering the current cycle has many more than that, and both the Prothean and Leviathan Empires consisted of multiple species. If each cycle averaged four space-faring species, the number of sapient species that the Reapers caused to go extinct could be as many as 80,000 or more. All are compelling reasons not to trust the Catalyst and the Reapers, and to completely eradicate them. The destruction of the Geth, though tragic, is not an example of xenocide. It's an example of collateral damage at best, since the destruction of the Geth isn't Shepard's goal, and it isn't what the Crucible was designed for. Shepard does not even know that the Geth would be destroyed by the Crucible until the decision chamber, when informed of it by the Catalyst. Furthermore death isn't necessarily permanent for Synthetics. They can be rebuilt.
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Post by dmc1001 on Dec 24, 2016 3:13:47 GMT
Just to be clear, I don't have a negative view of ME3. I love that game. Love the entire trilogy. I know. It is a generalization. The reality is that seeing two guys who are masculine have a relationship in a game is a huge thing for me to see. That's what guides my decision in this matter. I've never seen a relationship of this sort that I identified with - two masculine guys together, a thing that is more a reflection of my own life. That's why I want that happily ever after. So, yeah, my selfishness in this matter kind of screws over the geth, EDI and Joker (who I pair with EDI), as well as whoever else might suffer while mass relay tech is down. Someday, when I see more masculine male characters in same sex relationships (in a variety of media) - where it's normalized - I might feel differently about it. This kind of thing may be bigger than you realize for gay guys.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Dec 24, 2016 4:18:55 GMT
Reapers show no reason to distrust. They were very open and honest with you. The only time a Reaper lied is implied with the Geth. But we don't know the full details of the deal the Geth made. And Legion was shown to be able to lie though the omission of facts. Oh which I blame Joker for. Destroy causes millions of deaths (billions if you saved/made peace with Geth) and are doing exactly what the Reapers did because you think it is best. I find it ironic and odd that people seem to use Destroy option as some sort of moral high ground punishment for the Rapers. Punishing Genocide with more Genocide isn't exactly a moral high ground. Particularly when there are a lot of innocent victims mixed in. And I would hardly call having them help rebuild society, share their knowledge with the rest of the galaxy and generally be helpful and productive members of the galaxy as "getting off the hook". Not as if right after the change they wave good bye and head off towards Andromeda Galaxy to see what is up there. The Reapers have annihilated billions by the time Shepard has that conversation with the Catalyst, and that's only from the current cycle. The Leviathan DLC establishes that they've been at it for at least a billion years. At an average of one mass extinction cycle every 50,000 years, the Reapers may have destroyed galactic civilization 20,000 times by the start of Mass Effect 1. Each one of those galactic civilizations that were destroyed, with access to the same mass effect technology, would have presumably colonized a similarly large (if not larger) swath of the galaxy, and also had a population that numbered in the trillions. The total number of people killed by the Reapers would likely dwarf the total number of people who ever lived on Earth, in all of it's history. Like both the current galactic civilization and the Protheans, presumably most of those destroyed civilizations would have consisted of multiple species. Just for fun, let's assume it averages it out to four space-faring species per cycle, which is probably conservative considering the current cycle has many more than that, and both the Prothean and Leviathan Empires consisted of multiple species. If each cycle averaged four space-faring species, the number of sapient species that the Reapers caused to go extinct could be as many as 80,000 or more. All are compelling reasons not to trust the Catalyst and the Reapers, and to completely eradicate them. The destruction of the Geth, though tragic, is not an example of xenocide. It's an example of collateral damage at best, since the destruction of the Geth isn't Shepard's goal, and it isn't what the Crucible was designed for. Shepard does not even know that the Geth would be destroyed by the Crucible until the decision chamber, when informed of it by the Catalyst. Furthermore death isn't necessarily permanent for Synthetics. They can be rebuilt. And the Reapers aren't just doing it for the lolz. Their kill count is so high because they have been at this for a long long time. Give any other race the same time frame to exist in and their kill count would be up there with them. In fact due to war and war related issues the human race has a death toll of ~315,326,595–754,762,571 million people. From know recorded history to present roughly. And this is simply an estimate. The real number could be much higher. And of course this doesn't take into account other problems like murder or drug over doses, etc. Or to put it another way with 7 billion estimated total population we have killed ~ 4.5- 10.7% of current world population with conflict in the space of a couple thousand years. United Nation's Office on Drug and Crime reports roughly 874,100 Homicides in the last year across the globe. If we assume that number is steady and we multiply it by 2,000 years we get a total of 1,748,200,000 intentional homicides. This brings the rough total we humans have killed each other to 2,063,526,595- 2,502,962,571 billion people killed by our own species. Which jumps that number up to 29.4-35.7% of current total world population being killed off in only a couple thousand of years. If the Reapers have been around 1 billion years and recorded human history was only 200,000 years that is only 0.02% of the total amount of time Reapers have been around. That body count would sky rocket. And while it might not be the same body count as Reapers it would be a massive amount. If 2,502,962,571 represented 200,000 years. 50,000 years of repeating that to reach 1 billion years would leave the human race with ~ 12,514,812,855,000 deaths caused by conflict or intentional homicide to just the human race by the human race. If all other races have similar set up assuming 4 space fairing races that is 50,059,251,420,000 across the galaxy. And that isn't taking into account inter species conflicts. So when I say the Reapers have shown no reason to distrust them is it because our own race is just as guilty of mass murder as they are. They have just been at it longer. And the fact is the Reapers never lied ever. They were very open and honest about what they intent to do. They intent to harvest us and create a Reaper out of us. They don't beat around the bush telling everyone free cookies and kittens. Sovergin and Harbinger out right tell us how insignificant we are compared to them. That we live at their pleasure and we will die because they demand it. Married couples aren't even that honest with each other. The complete genocide of a race can not be called collateral damage. Collateral damage is when you bomb a military installation but a few bombs go off target and blow up a few civilian locations. Wiping out two synthetic races completely and utterly can only be called genocide. And the icing on this cake of claiming that synthetics can be rebuild is a lot like saying a gun man killing 50 people at a night club doesn't mean anything. Because we can always create more. So why is murder illegal? I mean seriously why should people care if some nut job walks into an elementary school and shoots a couple dozen kids. There are more where they came from and can be easily replace. We might as well use human targets at shooting range to really help train people. I mean after all we can create more were they came from. Do you get the point I'm trying to make or do I have to continue with this? And here is the part that is really interesting about all this. The Reapers harvest each race during the cycle because they justify it in their own mind as the best thing to do. In return when you wipe them out you are committing the same act they do for the same reason. You justify the action in your own mind as the best thing to do. Genocide because you think it is the right thing to do. And you are doing it on the same scale of the Reapers. Because remember each Reaper is the collective history and experience of the races they have harvested. When you destroy the Reapers you are destroying the last vestiges of those civilizations with the Reapers. So effectively are you finishing them off and removing the final traces of them from the galaxy.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2016 15:52:32 GMT
The Reapers have annihilated billions by the time Shepard has that conversation with the Catalyst, and that's only from the current cycle. The Leviathan DLC establishes that they've been at it for at least a billion years. At an average of one mass extinction cycle every 50,000 years, the Reapers may have destroyed galactic civilization 20,000 times by the start of Mass Effect 1. Each one of those galactic civilizations that were destroyed, with access to the same mass effect technology, would have presumably colonized a similarly large (if not larger) swath of the galaxy, and also had a population that numbered in the trillions. The total number of people killed by the Reapers would likely dwarf the total number of people who ever lived on Earth, in all of it's history. Like both the current galactic civilization and the Protheans, presumably most of those destroyed civilizations would have consisted of multiple species. Just for fun, let's assume it averages it out to four space-faring species per cycle, which is probably conservative considering the current cycle has many more than that, and both the Prothean and Leviathan Empires consisted of multiple species. If each cycle averaged four space-faring species, the number of sapient species that the Reapers caused to go extinct could be as many as 80,000 or more. All are compelling reasons not to trust the Catalyst and the Reapers, and to completely eradicate them. The destruction of the Geth, though tragic, is not an example of xenocide. It's an example of collateral damage at best, since the destruction of the Geth isn't Shepard's goal, and it isn't what the Crucible was designed for. Shepard does not even know that the Geth would be destroyed by the Crucible until the decision chamber, when informed of it by the Catalyst. Furthermore death isn't necessarily permanent for Synthetics. They can be rebuilt. And the Reapers aren't just doing it for the lolz. Their kill count is so high because they have been at this for a long long time. Give any other race the same time frame to exist in and their kill count would be up there with them. That is simply false. There is not one species within the current cycle that has a policy of utterly annihilating any space-faring species who isn't them. None of the Milky Way species could ever come close to racking up the Reapers' kill count, given enough time, because none operates on a 'kill-them-all' policy when making contact with other space-faring species. The only possible exception would be the Rachni War era Rachni, and they were thralls of the Reapers. This is incorrect as well. While mass murder has occurred in human history, there is nothing even close to approaching the scale of death & destruction in a single Reaper War. Unlike the Reapers the Alliance also does not operate on a policy of causing the extinction of every space-faring species who isn't them. So? I have no doubt the Catalyst is being honest when it tells Shepard it thinks Synthesis is the solution to the 'problem' the Leviathan's A.I. is trying to solve. It is however likewise being honest when it tells Shepard that it has tried Synthesis before, ultimately didn't like the results, and went back to the old genocidal drawing board. The Catalyst states the early attempt at Synthesis ultimately failed because it was forced. If the Catalyst's hypothesis is correct, then surely Synthesis 2.0 must ultimately lead to the same outcome. After all the galaxy isn't choosing Synthesis in the current cycle either, Shepard and the Catalyst are forcing it on them. The main problem with Synthesis is that it trusts that the mass-murdering A.I. that destroyed it's own creators, and perhaps 20,000 other galactic civilizations, won't at some point change it's mind and abandon peace. It is a reckless gamble on the lives of trillions. The other issue with Synthesis is that the problem the Catalyst is trying to solve does not exist. The Catalyst believes that synthetic and organic life cannot coexist, and that synthetics will inevitably destroy organic life without some sort of radical intervention by itself. This is demonstrably false. The Geth seek peaceful coexistence, and depending on Shepard's Rannoch choices, are potentially allies against the Reapers. There's also no guarantee that synthetics would destroy all organic life, even if they went to war with organics. The Geth are no more formidable than the Turians, Salarians, or Asari, and the Quarians were well on their way to defeating the Geth in war before a Reaper intervened. Both the Protheans and Leviathans also won wars against synthetics. The destruction of the Geth does not meet the definition of genocide, no matter how often you choose to throw that word around. Article II of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide defines genocide as, the " intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group." There's no intent in the destruction of the Geth. It's an unintended consequence of the Crucible. Collateral damage, no matter how horrific, is not genocide. There is intent with the destruction of the Reapers, but then the Reapers are xenocidal machines that have destroyed galactic civilization perhaps as many as 20,000 times over, and are knee deep in an attempt to annihilate the current one. I'd say both work as rather strong mitigating circumstances. Additionally each Reaper is created in part, from people who have been taken hostage, stripped of free will by indoctrination, and had their consciousness uploaded and merged with countless others like them and A.I processes to create a cybernetic hive mind. That of course has stripped each person of individuality as well. It's slavery, although a version of it far more horrifying than anything in human history. Synthesis perpetuates that crime by allowing the A.I. responsible for that abomination it to continue to exist as galactic watchdog, with the people it butchered and altered as it's eternal thralls. The death of each Reaper is a mercy killing of the unfortunate souls used to create it. A person who is shot to death is gone forever. Or at least, that's true for most people in the Mass Effect universe. Considering how expensive the Lazarus Project was to carry out, it is unlikely to be something that could be applied on a wide scale. A Synthetic that was rendered non-functional by gunfire? Simply replace hardware and reboot. Once a species has been annihilated it is gone forever as well, short of a large scale cloning operation. If the Reapers annihilate humanity no one is bringing them back. In Synthesis there is a real gamble from Shepard's perspective, that may eventually come to pass. Synthesis requires trusting that the poorly coded mass-murdering A.I. is forever hanging up it's murderous ways, won't find Synthesis a failure at some point, and decide it needs to start over & annihilate the current galactic civilization. It requires trusting that the Catalyst won't ever abandon the peace obtained by Synthesis, despite the A.I. admitting to doing exactly that once before. The destruction of EDI and the Geth, all of which could simply be rebuilt, seems a small price to pay to ensure that the fourteen or so space-faring species won't be permanently annihilated. Death after all is not necessarily as final for synthetics as it is with organics. EDI in fact was destroyed and rebuilt once before, and has memories from before that first 'death.' If Destroy is an evil, it is very much the lesser evil.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Dec 24, 2016 18:47:40 GMT
That is simply false. There is not one species within the current cycle that has a policy of utterly annihilating any space-faring species who isn't them. None of the Milky Way species could ever come close to racking up the Reapers' kill count, given enough time, because none operates on a 'kill-them-all' policy when making contact with other space-faring species. The only possible exception would be the Rachni War era Rachni, and they were thralls of the Reapers. And yet with the basic estimated calculation there the kill count of same species on same species murder is fairly up there. And that is a low ball estimate because it doesn't take into account actions like orbital bombarding a planet into a barren waste land killing not only the apex race of that planet but all other creatures on it to the point only really single cell organisms are left alive. Hell if that happened to Earth there would be close to a billion cows killed alone. Insects would multiply kill count by 8 alone. There is actually no proof the Reapers caused the Rachni War. Some proof they might have had some effect in it but nothing major. And yet within our very limited and short term recorded history we have killed between 29-35% of our current population. It might not happen on the scale of the Reapers but it still happens on a large scale. So claiming the Reapers are some how guilty but we are not simply because they have a higher body count is silly. You kill 10 people or 10,000 people the guilt is the same. It is also the pot calling the kettle black. Forced can mean a lot of things. The Reapers are an example of forced synthesis. How ever the AI has had lots of time to study and examine the problems and the flaws created by it. So when it says it is sure it will work not any reason to distrust him. Not like random Alliance Scientist #241 claimed they could do it after half guessing/not fully understanding Crucible. You ignore the reasons why it takes place. Instead focusing on the emotional side to declare they are evil twisted beings. The Catalyst harvested those races because it was the only viable option. The very second a new viable option pops up when Shepard shows up the AI jumps at the chance to take it. Even if one option is the complete destruction of it and all the work it has done. Or allowing it's own mind to be overwritten with Shepard's. And if you choose Refuse the Catalyst actually gets very pissed at you as the entire tone changes to an angry one. The issue oh most certainly exists in the game world if you pay attention. Geth did seek peaceful coexistence at first then after the Quarian's spit in their face they nearly wiped them off the face of the galaxy. Then they took the approach of extreme isolation keeping themselves completely cut off from the rest of the galaxy and killing anyone who got close to their territory. Legion then leaves the Geth Collective on a mission to find Shepard. Not to form some connection between the Geth and Organics. But simply to get information from Shepard for the Geth. Because Shepard's code is superior. It then rather then attempting to establish a line of dialogue between Geth and Organics fucks off on a secondary mission abandoning the original one til Shepard happens to cross it's path. And agrees to help only because it for fill's it's primary goal. Then in ME 3 the Geth get rail roaded by the Quarians in an unprovoked attack. Turning to the Reapers simply to survive. During the event of Rannoch Legion regularly lies it's shiny metal ass off to Shepard. With both Paragon and Renegade base responds to this fact. And every action while on the surface seems to be helping the Quarians really just puts the Geth in a better position. Try to wipe out my race one shame on you. Try to wipe out my race a second time and I'll kill your entire race just so I'm safe. The next part is were people really need to learn and understand cause and effect. And how certain actions have ripple effects and without that initial cause the effects you see later will never have happened. Quarians only really made the gains they did because the effect of Sovereign recruiting the Heretics to it's goal. Thus the amount of destroyed Geth parts for Quarians to salvage and study increased significantly. ME 1 makes it very clear that the Geth were not directly controlled by Sovereign and later games do not contradict that. Only that they willingly joined and followed without getting any sort of upgrade to their system. And with only what 20% of all Geth following Sovereign they were capable of almost completely and utterly annihilate the Citadel Fleet after they were put on high alert and knew they were coming. If 100% of the Geth joined and followed Sovereign it would have been an armada that would wipe everyone out. Their capabilities are well known. Particularly how ME 3 emphasizes this by the Quarians getting rail roaded by the Geth's Flag ship. They could only destroy it by having their Heavy Fleet focus fire on it after it was completely powered down. And even then despite the all out barrage lasted long enough for Shepard to get to an escape shuttle before finally being destroyed. The Protheans were able to push them back by forcing every advanced race to join their empire as servants or be destroyed by them. And this was only possible because of the Relays the Reapers created. Without that Relay system they wouldn't be capable of contacting and forcibly recruiting so many races. Which would mean they would only be able to face them with the numbers they have. Which was established to be not enough to stop them. Leviathan's thrall races had similar effect. Each time the conflict happened another race would be wiped out. Not only would you lose the entire race but you would lose all the other thralls that died to wipe them out. This repeated cycle is why they created the Catalyst in the first place. To finally solve this problem for them. And this is the part that you really have to pay attention and understand cause and effects. The world the Catalyst see's is the world without it in existence. It's entire job is to prevent the conflict from happening and the route it has taken after all other attempts failed is the harvesting of races. Keeping the galaxy in a state of suspended animation so to speak. Now without the Reapers there is no Relay system. So colonization of planets and star systems would take a long time. Any ship to respond to an attack would take weeks if not months to reach the place being attacked. This is a fundamental difference to how the galaxy at large function in the game. And would fundamentally alter how any race could respond to a synthetic uprising. Even if the Turians wanted to help the Quarians the distance between their colonies would mean it would take months for the support to reach them. And if they pulled to much of their military away from their colonies they would be open to attack which means they wouldn't seen their full strength or even half of it. Due to the need to protect their own. If the Geth did choose to expand outward and wipe out all organic life then the Quarians would have to divide their fleet among all their colonies due to the fact that back up would be weeks away at best. Each fight would only be 1/2th the full strength of the Turian Fleet. While the Geth could be pulling up to 75% of their total fleet. Added the Geth do not need to rest or resupply and they can mine resources from environments considered not hospitable to living beings. They could literally stop mid way between colonies, harvest a few asteroids for supplies and build more mobile platforms or upgrade/repair ships on the go. And even more important to realize peace or the alliance on Rannoch is only capable with the Geth because the Reapers represent a mutual threat to all parties. Without that mutual threat there is no common goal of survival to unite anyone. Without the Reapers that peace is impossible or at least extremely implausible. Because up to that point the Geth have never shown any interest in helping the galaxy at large. And in return the galaxy at large have never viewed the Geth as anything but a possible threat. www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/genocideDefinition of genocide : the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group Shepard knows the effect of pulling the trigger on Destroy. He knows what the effect will be and if it is chosen the entire Geth race is wiped from existence. It is genocide. Both of the Reapers and of the Geth. Fool yourself into thinking what ever you want but by the action is the literal dictionary definition of genocide. Because you deliberately kill the Geth when you pick Destroy. And the beat systematically destroys them across the galaxy. You can not claim ignorance of your actions because you are told in advance the effects of your choice. The irony of your logic is you feel the ends justifies the means. Which again is exactly the logic the Rapers are using. The death of all those civilizations during each cycle is justified by the fact synthetic life doesn't develop to the point of wiping out organic life. Thus each of those races wiped out is able to exist because of their actions. Every ounce of logic you use to justify your actions is the same amount that the Reapers use to justify their own. You are the greatest example of the pot calling the kettle black. How do you know it is a mercy killing? What information do you have to know they are suffering in there and enslaved? How do you know individual personalities still exist? That they didn't just copy the brain and transfer the collective knowledge into the Reaper. Each copied brain functions like a more complex version of how our own neurons function. Grand assumptions based on no information and attempting to validate wiping them out as calling it a mercy killing. Which again is just like how the Reapers validate their actions. These poor organics will cause all this pain and conflict to themselves. It really is a mercy killing to wipe them out and implant them into an immortal Reaper body. Free from pain, suffering and loneliness. This shows a complete misunderstanding if not ignorance of how synthetics operate. If the Normandy was completely destroyed they could rebuild EDI. How ever it would only be the same in name alone. Even if you had a data back up of all the information she had uploading it to the new EDI doesn't mean it will be the same as before. If you can show 12 people the same event and get 12 different interpretations of it. Then why do you expect 12 AI's to share the same perspective? Even the Geth have to build a consensus and can fail at that. Legion during his loyalty mission fails to build a consensus on what to do about the Heretics. Leaving the option in Shepard's hands. And that was over 1,000 programs who have shared the same views and same events since Legion's mission started and they couldn't agree on something. Even thinking that after the Geth are destroyed we could rebuild them and they would be even vaugly similar to the original Geth is a lot like assuming the new Golden Retriever puppy will be exactly like your old one that just passed away. Or that your new baby brother will be exactly like your already existing brother. There are a lot of ways to describe that kind of thinking and none of them are compliments. And again parallels. The Reapers kill because they see no other alternative to prevent conflict that would result in organic's being wiped out. So they act in a way that allows organics to continue to live at the cost of current apex races. When an alternative is offered the Catalyst jumps on it. And the same mentality is what you show. You think this is the best way to solve the problem so when the option is given you jump on it. The grand irony is that destroy is the same evil as the Reapers. It is only justifiable in your mind because you are doing it.
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dmc1001
N7
Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
Prime Posts: 77
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Biotic Booty
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Post by dmc1001 on Dec 24, 2016 19:38:30 GMT
I think you should know it's pointless to argue with him. He won't let anything go, or even agree to disagree.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Dec 25, 2016 4:13:52 GMT
I think you should know it's pointless to argue with him. He won't let anything go, or even agree to disagree. You know I generally find that whole concept of millennial being little snow flakes who can't handle anyone disagreeing with them without upsetting them as a load of hog wash. But you seem to be for filling that stereotype fairly well. Can you really not handle me not agreeing with you without getting upset about it?
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