Gileadan
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Post by Gileadan on Dec 23, 2016 12:54:50 GMT
I don't get why people compare DAI's "open world" to TW3's or any other open world game. DAI had MMO-like single player combat zones with enemies respawning on your left toe and a few camps as pit stops, with barebones side content told in short, samey conversations and/or simple text pop-ups. I really hope that won't repeat itself in MEA.
"Hello alien from another galaxy, the evil Kett just killed my play doh husband and stole his macguffin, can you get it back for me?"
"The kett stole your macguffin?"
"Yes, the kett stole my macguffin."
Hopefully the side content has more muscle and less fat this time.
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Post by SofaJockey on Dec 23, 2016 13:13:39 GMT
Telling me that it's going to take an hour to drive across doesn't really impress me if there's nothing interesting inside of that 1 hour drive. It doesn't even need to be all quests or collection stuff. Just finding cool looking vistas is nice for exploration, but if all I'm doing is holding W as I drive across the same looking area of desert for 50 minutes that's going to be boring. That's why Elder Scrolls switched from mass generated worlds in 2 to the smaller but filled with more interesting stuff style of Morrowind and onward even though Daggerfall's map is bigger than Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim combined. Yeah, I have that problem with Final Fantasy XV, they have you "driving" along the road for up to 10min (that is the longest I have seen on my friends game) and you have to sit through the entire travel. Now some are fast travel locations, but not all of them and spending time just driving doesn't appeal to me. You can't even walk away from the game for randomly you will stop for one reason or another and the travel will pause until you tell it to start travelling again. The thing is, different people like different stuff. I haven't used fast travel in Final Fantasy XV yet, so I've driven around a lot. Pretty much walk/ride/drive instead of fast travel in all games, I prefer it and yes it makes the game longer. But others 'graze' so the density is very subjective. More important is that side-content is interesting rather than that there is bland 'stuff' (Elfroot, bottles, mosaics, shards) every 5 minutes. With DAI, BioWare were surprised that people tried to 'do everything'.
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Post by themikefest on Dec 23, 2016 13:24:47 GMT
With DAI, BioWare were surprised that people tried to 'do everything'. They were? Why would they be? They're the ones who put the stuff in the game for the player to find and do whatever. As far as the size of the planets. If I'm able to crank up the volume on the radio in the car while listening to Ozzy or Iron Maiden, the long drive from point A to point B won't be too bad. I'm sure I'll stop every now and then to take a look at the sights.
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Post by Sanunes on Dec 23, 2016 13:31:36 GMT
With DAI, BioWare were surprised that people tried to 'do everything'. They were? Why would they be? They're the ones who put the stuff in the game for the player to find and do whatever. As far as the size of the planets. If I'm able to crank up the volume on the radio in the car while listening to Ozzy or Iron Maiden, the long drive from point A to point B won't be too bad. I'm sure I'll stop every now and then to take a look at the sights. I always took that comment to be towards the people that were bored with being in the Hinterlands and refused to leave until they had done everything possible.
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Post by Sanunes on Dec 23, 2016 13:39:25 GMT
Yeah, I have that problem with Final Fantasy XV, they have you "driving" along the road for up to 10min (that is the longest I have seen on my friends game) and you have to sit through the entire travel. Now some are fast travel locations, but not all of them and spending time just driving doesn't appeal to me. You can't even walk away from the game for randomly you will stop for one reason or another and the travel will pause until you tell it to start travelling again. The thing is, different people like different stuff. I haven't used fast travel in Final Fantasy XV yet, so I've driven around a lot. Pretty much walk/ride/drive instead of fast travel in all games, I prefer it and yes it makes the game longer. But others 'graze' so the density is very subjective. More important is that side-content is interesting rather than that there is bland 'stuff' (Elfroot, bottles, mosaics, shards) every 5 minutes. With DAI, BioWare were surprised that people tried to 'do everything'. Of course, I wasn't trying to speak for everyone just myself. My experience both are as bad as one another since both are mindless activities and feel like padding to make the game longer. At least with gathering you can avoid that if you wish or ignore the mosaics and shards which I did. Unfortunately with some of the travel time in FFXV you can't skip it, if they had fast travel for each destination it would be better instead of certain ones, but having only some is more frustrating then none. I always like having an alternate just like having the ability to have gathering missions in Inquisition from the war board or plant herbs inside of Skyhold so you can avoid the mindless grind for that.
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Post by SofaJockey on Dec 23, 2016 13:59:46 GMT
Issues over content density are closely related to content quality. The example I'll give is what is in my opinion one of the worst side-quests: Pressed for Cache (Exalted Plains - DAI)
You've released trapped soldiers after having cleared the Exalted Plains. The Commander wants you to mark caches of fruit and vegetables around the plains for them. - They have just been released, can't they go mark their own vegetables?
- How does a stick make barrels of fruit and vegetables any more obvious?
- I'm the Inquisitor not a vegetable packer
- I have to wander around marking 10 of these in areas I've already been? pfft...
I'm a completionist and this winds me up. I can even see a story reason for the Ram meat, but this?
BioWare has already advised that there won't be 'collect 10 Varren bladders' quests, that's great.
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Post by javeart on Dec 23, 2016 14:30:16 GMT
Well, all openworld systems are shallow which is why I'd be in favor of removing them completely. But if I have to have them, TW3 is far preferable to DAI or Skyrim. I think one of the biggest reason TW3 is lauded over DAI is the dynamic day/night/weather cycle. It simply sells the illusion. And I felt like random encounters were implemented better. Go to one of the areas in DAI and fight the same 3 group of enemies over and over and over...throughout the map. TW3 you run into bandits, then some necrophages, then maybe a forktail, then something else, with some of these encounters triggering cutscenes and little stories. Unfortunately RPG's have permanently been married to RPG's...you know, 'cause Skyrim sold a bazillion copies. The one thing I've learned from open-world games is that you're better off sticking to main story and companion content...and only do side stuff when it suits your fancy, is conveniently located, and makes a certain kind of sense in the grander context. I'm more like this too, even if I did enjoy Skyrim and can enjoy a Skyrim kind of game from time to time, but I sure don't want every game to be like that. In the case of TW3, in fact, and even if I agree that side-quests and such are better than in DAI, I still enjoyed much more the pt where I stuck to the main story and ignored everything else than the completionist one. I really think that it doesn't matter the quality of the maps and the content you put in it, there's a point where all the exploration and side quests only detracts from the main story and for me that's the most important part of a game. Unless the game in question is a game like Skyrim, with basically no main story at all, and, again, having a game or two like that it's fun, but I don't see the need for Bioware to go that route when what they do, games with good stories and good characters is much, much better IMO. Well, I now it's a matter of trying to appeal to a bigger market, but damm :/ But, whatever, I always say the same, sadly it seems there's no going back from the big-maps model, it bothers me because I'd like to see resources spent in other things, but that's how things are. I only hope that I'm not forced to do side-quest if I don't feel like it, just let me enjoy mi main mission and whatever content I feel makes sense alongside it when that's all I want to do, even if that leaves me with a 10 hours pt... just no more power requirements and such
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Post by SofaJockey on Dec 23, 2016 14:47:45 GMT
The Nomad should also make a significant difference.
For example driving across the map of the large Mad Max game was about 4x faster than jogging.
Mad Max - crossing the map driving (13m)
Mad Max - crossing the map running (51m)
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Post by dmc1001 on Dec 23, 2016 23:00:55 GMT
Step one move around a map. Step two feel that it does not have enough time content. Step 3 put the shard in an idiotic location in which you have to spend 10 minutes just hoping to get or have to move around the entire map to the other side to get it. Profit??? I've managed to avoid ever getting even one complete set of shards. Too annoying. Maybe if it had been possible to use a console command to fly up to them I would have cared but the tedium was too much. I'm generally a completist but I couldn't bring myself to care. That said, I'm more scifi than fantasy so could easily be annoyed if MEA has something like the shards.
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Post by dmc1001 on Dec 23, 2016 23:28:00 GMT
They were? Why would they be? They're the ones who put the stuff in the game for the player to find and do whatever. As far as the size of the planets. If I'm able to crank up the volume on the radio in the car while listening to Ozzy or Iron Maiden, the long drive from point A to point B won't be too bad. I'm sure I'll stop every now and then to take a look at the sights. I always took that comment to be towards the people that were bored with being in the Hinterlands and refused to leave until they had done everything possible. I didn't much care for the planets in ME1 where you have to drive across the entire planet, probably going over a mountain with a vertical wall at some point, because the third point of interest was far, far away. And there was practically nothing in-between. Maybe some minerals. Definitely don't want that experience again. As for DAI Hinterlands, I remember reading somewhere that the devs didn't intend for it all to be done in one shot. You could return later on to do more if desired. The main reason I like to do more of the quests is for RP reasons - that is, I'm building a following for the Inquisition and want to keep my people safe. Shards, though? Please, MEA devs, no.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 23, 2016 23:34:45 GMT
I always took that comment to be towards the people that were bored with being in the Hinterlands and refused to leave until they had done everything possible. I didn't much care for the planets in ME1 where you have to drive across the entire planet, probably going over a mountain with a vertical wall at some point, because the third point of interest was far, far away. And there was practically nothing in-between. Maybe some minerals. Definitely don't want that experience again. As for DAI Hinterlands, I remember reading somewhere that the devs didn't intend for it all to be done in one shot. You could return later on to do more if desired. The main reason I like to do more of the quests is for RP reasons - that is, I'm building a following for the Inquisition and want to keep my people safe. Shards, though? Please, MEA devs, no. Of course it was not intended to be done in one go you had a level 12 Dragon and like a level 12 or 16 Fade Rift in themiddle of the map.
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Post by floratheelf on Dec 24, 2016 18:54:10 GMT
I really don't want bioware to become a W3 mini-me. That game was nothing extraordinary with lack luster side quests, at least as far as I could tell from the 20-30 hours I managed to trudge through. Every time I read desires for ME or DA to be more like it I cringe deep down inside.
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Post by slimgrin on Dec 24, 2016 19:57:27 GMT
I really don't want bioware to become a W3 mini-me. That game was nothing extraordinary with lack luster side quests, at least as far as I could tell from the 20-30 hours I managed to trudge through. Every time I read desires for ME or DA to be more like it I cringe deep down inside. It sucks for you then that Mac Walters cited it as an inspiration for how sidequests and world building will work in Andromeda.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 24, 2016 20:19:08 GMT
I really don't want bioware to become a W3 mini-me. That game was nothing extraordinary with lack luster side quests, at least as far as I could tell from the 20-30 hours I managed to trudge through. Every time I read desires for ME or DA to be more like it I cringe deep down inside. It sucks for you then that Mac Walters cited it as an inspiration for how sidequests and world building will work in Andromeda. Thank the Force.
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Post by BansheeOwnage on Dec 25, 2016 1:34:48 GMT
An article by Chris Mawson on Dec 20, states that the Bio studio is still tweaking the sizes of the planetary maps. the studio wanted to “create experiences that have the right density and amount of content”, stating that a planet that may currently take 50 minutes to drive across could change to either 30 or 60 minutes in several months’ time. So, a couple of things. First, the fact that they're saying a map might be significantly different "in a few months' time" is... interesting, I guess. That March release date is looking less and less likely if those things still aren't set in stone. Second, I'm skeptical of a single map even taking 30 minutes to drive across. Think about that. If the Nomad travels at 100km/h, that would mean a map is 50km in diameter if you could travel in a straight line (which should be fairly easy with a Mako since it can jump). Even at 80hm/h, that's 40 km, etc. There is just no way the maps are that big. It's not feasible and really, it's probably not a good idea considering the whole "content density" conversation going on. Content would have to be pretty sparse in that case. So I'm just going to assume that if all you were doing was driving from point A (one side) to point B (the other) it would actually take a lot less than that. Edit: Those numbers assume the game scales distance correctly. With DAI, BioWare were surprised that people tried to 'do everything'. They were? Why would they be? They're the ones who put the stuff in the game for the player to find and do whatever. Bioware is often surprised at fans liking things they make, oddly. They didn't get that a lot of players would want to do all the quests/exploration in DA:I. Certain devs didn't understand that we were very emotionally invested and grew attached to characters in the ME trilogy. I wonder what they won't get next? I've managed to avoid ever getting even one complete set of shards. Too annoying. Maybe if it had been possible to use a console command to fly up to them I would have cared but the tedium was too much. I'm generally a completist but I couldn't bring myself to care. That said, I'm more scifi than fantasy so could easily be annoyed if MEA has something like the shards. The thing about the shards is not only are they incredibly tedious to find, but the rewards are also not overly useful, so it doesn't make up for the effort. By the time you get all that elemental resistance, you're done or almost done the game, naturally, since you have to cover every area to find the shards. I mean, it's a decent bonus on its own, but once you get it all you also have such good gear and/or are overleveled enough that it doesn't really help.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 25, 2016 1:38:49 GMT
I find BioWare's surprise at fans complesionist tendencies perfectly logical to be honest with you. Way back when I first got into playing RPGs on the console I read an article on Skyrim specifically suggesting you should not do everything in the game in one play through. Because it does not often make sense for a character to do everything. Like be an assassin and a thief, just a random example. Its advice I've tried to follow.
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Post by Vall on Dec 25, 2016 2:22:17 GMT
I find BioWare's surprise at fans complesionist tendencies perfectly logical to be honest with you. Way back when I first got into playing RPGs on the console I read an article on Skyrim specifically suggesting you should not do everything in the game in one play through. Because it does not often make sense for a character to do everything. Like be an assassin and a thief, just a random example. Its advice I've tried to follow. Skyrim - "I'm going to do main storyline now." *Starts moving towards it, finds something of interest* "ooooh, shiny...I guess I might do this Thief's guild questchain...and maybe that Dark Brotherhood chain" *50 hours later* "Oh damnit, I still haven't moved past getting to Greybeards in main storyline >_<" ...aaaaaand it's similar for me in DAI >_>
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Post by Andrew Lucas on Dec 25, 2016 2:35:53 GMT
Big maps are good. They just need stuff in them. Ala The Witcher 3 I think The Witcher 3 is actually a poor example of open world content density. Outside of villages, there's practically nothing to do, and what little there is could been better designed. Even the largest of ambient bandit encounters were usually just collections of dudes randomly sitting around some outpost. Nothing particularly compelling. In fact, I found that the sheer number of smuggler's caches and treasure activities discredited the realism of the world more than it enhanced gameplay. I think The Witcher 3 would be far better off as a collection of multi-village hubs rather than a continuous open world. There's really no way to fill big maps with a lot of good content yet. It just can't happen. TW3 did as well as it did only because Polish man hours are cheaper, and even then, it's still basically a hub game with superfluous tracts of land connecting everything together. Assuming the Nomad is fun to drive, I would hope BioWare would focus on providing medium-sized sandboxes with points of interest spread equally around. Then, the gameplay can be trimmed to the good stuff: driving, mission content, and a few better-designed ambient encounters, and the less savory content, e.g. collectathons, (which we're bound to get regardless) could at least be more compact. The alternative is just larger areas padded with more "activities" and bar-filling. Good lord, that's a giant reach, but Bioware's fandom has a tendency of talking about TW3 in a hyperbolic way. Can't take 'em much seriously, even more when one has a DAI avatar. Who knows. This is a first. Merry Christmas, everyone. Excuse me while I go open that champagne.
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Post by linksocarina on Dec 25, 2016 2:53:01 GMT
Are you kidding? There is a lot of things happening outside the main settlements in Witcher 3. If Bioware follow their example it would be really good. Nah Witcher 3 suffers from a lot of the same things DA:I does. People like to overlook it for some reason. Velen, Skellige, and Novigrad tend to turn into massive grindfests where you trot from village to village completing meaningless sidequests and exploring meaningless content (?'s are the bane of my existence). I hate Velen and Novigrad more than any area in DA:I and the existence of those areas actively prevent me from ever wanting to replay the game. All sense of pacing in the story is screwed by the open world content. It was especially disappointing because of how well paced the story of Witcher 2 is. I also hate how the only worthwhile gear in the game are Witcher gear that have to be found in tedious treasure hunts and crafted. Almost the exact same crafting mechanic as DA:I which is pretty derided by the community. The openworld system Witcher 3 used may have been pretty but it was incredibly shallow. I agree in part. Witcher 3 hides it a lot better though, which is the main point of contention I believe to this, if they had more side content (I.E, more cinematic content) similar to Witcher 3 over what we had in Inquisition, then I think it would be a better balance in the end.
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Post by RoboticWater on Dec 25, 2016 4:16:16 GMT
I think The Witcher 3 is actually a poor example of open world content density. Outside of villages, there's practically nothing to do, and what little there is could been better designed. Even the largest of ambient bandit encounters were usually just collections of dudes randomly sitting around some outpost. Nothing particularly compelling. In fact, I found that the sheer number of smuggler's caches and treasure activities discredited the realism of the world more than it enhanced gameplay. I think The Witcher 3 would be far better off as a collection of multi-village hubs rather than a continuous open world. There's really no way to fill big maps with a lot of good content yet. It just can't happen. TW3 did as well as it did only because Polish man hours are cheaper, and even then, it's still basically a hub game with superfluous tracts of land connecting everything together. Assuming the Nomad is fun to drive, I would hope BioWare would focus on providing medium-sized sandboxes with points of interest spread equally around. Then, the gameplay can be trimmed to the good stuff: driving, mission content, and a few better-designed ambient encounters, and the less savory content, e.g. collectathons, (which we're bound to get regardless) could at least be more compact. The alternative is just larger areas padded with more "activities" and bar-filling. Good lord, that's a giant reach, but Bioware's fandom has a tendency of talking about TW3 in a hyperbolic way. Can't take 'em much seriously, even more when one has a DAI avatar. Who knows. This is a first. Merry Christmas, everyone. Excuse me while I go open that champagne. Not especially. Understand that I think The Witcher 3 is a wonderful game that has incredibly poor design. I'll play it and I'll enjoy it, but I don't think it should be an exemplar for the genre for anything other than narrative design and sidequest quality. Mechanically, the game is sufficient enough to hold your interest between dialog, but completely uninspired. The loot is uninteresting, dolled out at a boring pace, and often mitigates the catharsis of receiving a legendary quest reward; the game would have been better off with only main quest rewards and spruced up Witcher gear hunts. The skill trees not only suffer from the same boring "+5% damage" boosts, but makes it worse by limiting the number of skills you can actively use (which doesn't really make sense in the real world, let alone for a professional Witcher); like the first Mass Effect, it would have been better off with less skills that matter more. The leveled enemies are an incredibly artificial way to gate the open world, not only because you're a professional who should have no problem killing any creature assuming you have the know-how, but there was really no reason to gate the open world to begin with (it's not like there's ); enemy difficulty should have been based entirely on preparedness, if we have the right tools and information, harder areas should be doable. And that's not getting into the quest design. No part of Witcher 3's RPG-ness works. It's not painfully bad (as the sales and praise for this game clearly shows), but they're not a standard I want to see in the industry. I don't want BioWare to think it can get away with poor design just because they make a fresh new world with neat stories and a bunch of production value (more than they already do). I know that's a lot on everything other than the world design, but I have spiel prepared for every time someone calls me pointlessly contrarian or hyperbolic about Witcher. However, that is all to say that there's no reason to just wander the world, because you'll just get stopped by pointlessly over-leveled enemies, most POIs are just the lame guarded treasure/treature hunt/smuggler's cache, and the loot you get ijust sn't that rewarding. Hell, even when you do get to the right level, those fights are just the same old straight forward encounters. There are no challenges you need to think your way through, no puzzle dungeons, no interesting mini-bosses, just a bunch of nebulous stuff. Leveling up yields no new mechanics to Metroid your way into new areas or through enemies, so there's no mechanical progression to the world. It's just kinda there. Moreover, I don't think Witcher 3's open world is any good because it's just like DA:I's and recent Assassin's Creed's and so many other games that merely stitch together their good narrative content together with activities and lame random encounters. No AAA RPG developer, CDPR included, have yet to realize that Bethesda's success isn't based on making big games with lots of stuff strewn about them, but rather fairly small games where all the stuff butts into each other. Skyrim's core mechanics may be quite shallow, but world design creates an almost trance-like flow that inherently keeps players engaged. The Witcher 3 doesn't have that. With neither the design competence of a Metroidvenia or the flow of a Bethesda game, there's not much Witcher's world does but look nice. All of its good content is spread out among specific points of interest, so the rest of the world, visually beautiful as it may be, is merely the space between you and the content you want. It works not because it's good design in and of itself, but because the content around it is enticing enough that you ignore it. Again, Witcher 3 is a great game. It just doesn't have any mechanics BioWare should copy. It's sidequests aren't actually all that mechanically superior to Inquisition's. CDPR just had the benefit of more production value to throw at each quest. Clearly, BioWare need to up their narrative design department, but that's essentially all we can learn from Witcher 3. I'm sorry that my particular opinion of the game sours you, but I have no intention of making anyone dislike the game. It's got more than enough going for it. However, you could at least grace my somewhat lengthy post with a half-decent rebuttal.
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Sanunes
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Post by Sanunes on Dec 25, 2016 5:24:32 GMT
I agree in part. Witcher 3 hides it a lot better though, which is the main point of contention I believe to this, if they had more side content (I.E, more cinematic content) similar to Witcher 3 over what we had in Inquisition, then I think it would be a better balance in the end. Would you think that Dragon Age: Inquisition would have had a better open world experience if they didn't have the Shard quests and the similar world quests that didn't have some level of story attached?
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Post by Fredward on Dec 25, 2016 6:45:44 GMT
Maps three times as big as the Hissing Wastes, just as empty, with splotches of regenerating enemies all over and an inability to pause combat.
... ~shudder~
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Cypher
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Post by Cypher on Dec 25, 2016 9:35:47 GMT
Maps three times as big as the Hissing Wastes, just as empty, with splotches of regenerating enemies all over and an inability to pause combat. ... ~shudder~ Combat was paused a handful of times in the gameplay teaser, so why is everyone saying you can't pause the combat?
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linksocarina
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Post by linksocarina on Dec 25, 2016 13:40:51 GMT
I agree in part. Witcher 3 hides it a lot better though, which is the main point of contention I believe to this, if they had more side content (I.E, more cinematic content) similar to Witcher 3 over what we had in Inquisition, then I think it would be a better balance in the end. Would you think that Dragon Age: Inquisition would have had a better open world experience if they didn't have the Shard quests and the similar world quests that didn't have some level of story attached? I think it would have helped. To be honest the shard quest is not even a problem, it's just a standard "collect the optional items" thing. The story behind it was good, but in the background and the codex. The issue is that a lot of the side quests were in the background and the codex. You didn't interact with a lot of people. Some of these quests work quite well that way- discovering ancient ruins and hidden temples in the Exhalted March, Hissing Wastes, Emerald Graves and the like was fantastic. But we lacked that quality in smaller quests. All of the Dalish quests for example felt detached because it was not in that sort of cinematic milieu we would expect. Same with the Hinterland questlines, and so on. In Witcher 3, they give you cinematic time for a simple quest in finding a ring. If Inquisition did that for their questlines I would bet people wouldn't care as much about the shard quests being filler. Not a lot of people cared about the hidden treasures or optional monster killings as being filler in Witcher 3, in comparison.
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helios969
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Post by helios969 on Dec 25, 2016 14:04:56 GMT
They were? Why would they be? They're the ones who put the stuff in the game for the player to find and do whatever. As far as the size of the planets. If I'm able to crank up the volume on the radio in the car while listening to Ozzy or Iron Maiden, the long drive from point A to point B won't be too bad. I'm sure I'll stop every now and then to take a look at the sights. I always took that comment to be towards the people that were bored with being in the Hinterlands and refused to leave until they had done everything possible. While the Hinterlands was among the worst, pretty much every area suffered from the same tedious repetition. And I really refuse to acknowledge the "we're surprised people did everything" comment...that was just a BS copout. I think they fell behind schedule and were forced to just quickly filled in those regions to get the game out the door. Not to mention every other Bio game I ever played where I ignored stuff, ended up costing me long term, (plus areas locking at various points in story progression). I finished my first ME3 playthrough with 1800... 1800 war assets because I was so impatient to progress the story and got locked out of previous content. DAI went the complete opposite direction. Now, Bio has intimated that we're free to ignore exploration stuff in MEA but that there may be consequences for doing so. So how the hell is a person to know what to do and what to skip? Of course, much of this could be solved with a good journal system that partitions relevant story and side content from meaningless fetch quests, but I cannot recall any Bio game that had a good journal system. One more area the TW3 kicked DAI in the rear. Main story segregated from side stories segregated from monster hunts segregated from fetch quests. Pretty straightforward approach to letting the player know what's left and the order of importance.
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