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Post by Andrew Waples on Aug 8, 2016 2:12:49 GMT
So we see Flemeth take away the Old God Soul away from Kieran. With him saying: "No more dreams?" We know that Grey Wardens can sense Arch Demons via dreams...so what did that mean? Was a blight coming? So, with what happened to Flemeth at the end which I'm going to assume that she "died"? In some sense anyway. Then I'm assuming the OGS moved on to Solas with who knows what kind of power that will be. I'm assuming that Solas would be aware of this right? I mean doesn't matter either way Solas still "kills" Flemeth. With Morrigan and or the Inquisitor having the "power" of the well. Would Solas now be able to communicate to either of them? Essentially rendering them slaves to Solas? I wonder though is Solas even killable? In the same sense that Flemeth was unkillable in Orgins.
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Post by Command0rk on Aug 8, 2016 2:40:26 GMT
I don't think we've seen the end of Flemeth. It'd be a cop out to build her character up throughout the games just for her to 'die' in such an anti-climatic fashion before knowing her true motive. There's more in store for her. At least.. I hope we haven't seen the end of her.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 9, 2016 11:13:58 GMT
It is hard to know what to make of Kieran. Morrigan said that transferring the Old God soul to him would save it from being destroyed or passing to a darkspawn and regenerating. However, the thing that attracted the Old God spirit to the foetus was the bit of taint passed on by the Grey Warden. This would suggest that Kieran still had a bit of Blight within him. In which case may be the Old God within him was hearing the call of the other surviving Old Gods. Still, if Kieran was tainted, even in a small way, and that was causing the dreams, then they wouldn't leave him with the old god soul. So may be it was some other form of dream that only the Old God experienced. May be Kieran was essentially made a Dreamer mage by the Old God and when it departed he would no longer have that ability or even be a mage. Thus any dreams in the future would be just normal ones.
There is no telling what happened at the end but Flemeth always has a contingency plan and she was expecting Fen'Harel to turn up, so we may well not have seen the last of her. She definitely put something into the eluvian immediately prior to Solas' arrival. Remember there was a spirit of some sort residing in the Well that activated when danger was present, protected the Inquisitor and/or the Well Drinker, and then left through the eluvian. I'm starting to think that was another piece of Mythal that was reunited with Flemeth straight after and then available to be sent on elsewhere, possibly in search of the Well Drinker.
I have never been clear if Flemeth was actually releasing you/Morrigan from the geas when she says you are free to go, before she departed. However, neither the Inquisitor or Morrigan seem to think that is the case from their subsequent conversation. Solas is also extremely agitated if the Inquisitor drinks, saying "You are Mythal's creature now. Everything you do whether you know it or not, will be for her." Whether that is because he knew what he was going to do and didn't want that sort of control over you is unclear. He certainly knew by that point that Mythal was definitely alive, whether you had already met her or not. Still, he may have only done what he did at the end because he had lost the power of the orb. Either way, the Well Drinker is no longer their own person, if the bearer of Mythal decides to exercise that power over them. Whether that ultimately makes any different to the overall plot is going to be interesting, just as whether the Dark Ritual is really going to have any significance beyond a different encounter with Mythal in DAI. At least in the case of the Well, someone had to drink and you couldn't avoid it altogether, which suggests it will have some part to play in the future.
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Post by Domakir on Aug 9, 2016 11:22:15 GMT
Like Ariane said: Many have tried to kill Asha'bellanar in the past. Do no claim victory until a few centuries have passed without sight of her.
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Post by ddj on Aug 9, 2016 17:09:16 GMT
I think all of you have presented exceptional views. I suspect from the way the series is building that we will continue to see Flemeth, Solas (hopefully) Morrigan and Leliana. Kieran should be important, but the long and short of it is that I do not know. My major concern lies, as always, with the BW writers who have their favorites, and frankly those are three of the favorites although I suspect Cassandra and Solas, possibly Sera, will join the mix. Here is the thing though. BW plays fast and loose even with the decisions we are permitted to make. For example, in DAO the Warden can die or not. That would seem to be a dead end, but voila with the aid of either Tevinter or, most likely, BW magic the Warden rises Phoenixlike from the ashes for Awakening and others in that series. The same holds for Leliana. Kill her at the Temple of Sacred Ashes and voila, back again for DA2 and DAI. From a lore standpoint, I think Kieran should be important though likely not as a playable character. From a BW standpoint, who knows.
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Post by Domakir on Aug 9, 2016 18:30:17 GMT
I think all of you have presented exceptional views. I suspect from the way the series is building that we will continue to see Flemeth, Solas (hopefully) Morrigan and Leliana. Kieran should be important, but the long and short of it is that I do not know. My major concern lies, as always, with the BW writers who have their favorites, and frankly those are three of the favorites although I suspect Cassandra and Solas, possibly Sera, will join the mix. Here is the thing though. BW plays fast and loose even with the decisions we are permitted to make. For example, in DAO the Warden can die or not. That would seem to be a dead end, but voila with the aid of either Tevinter or, most likely, BW magic the Warden rises Phoenixlike from the ashes for Awakening and others in that series. The same holds for Leliana. Kill her at the Temple of Sacred Ashes and voila, back again for DA2 and DAI. From a lore standpoint, I think Kieran should be important though likely not as a playable character. From a BW standpoint, who knows. I think he shouldn't be important because he doesn't exists in the majority of the worldstates and even if he does he can be human (and human Kieran doesn't contribute anything to the story) but if he's an OGB Flemeth takes the old god soul off him. I think that if Morrigan appears in DA4 Kieran will be there too but just as a small cameo. Probably we will interact with him and we will have the option to ask him something but he won't do anything special.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 9, 2016 23:47:09 GMT
I believe Kieran won't be seen again. I'm curious about Morrigan especially if she drank from the well. If Flemeth makes another appearance in DA, would that mean Morrigan will as well?
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Post by Entropy on Aug 10, 2016 21:49:17 GMT
I don't think we've seen the end of Flemeth. It'd be a cop out to build her character up throughout the games just for her to 'die' in such an anti-climatic fashion before knowing her true motive. There's more in store for her. At least.. I hope we haven't seen the end of her. There is a BioFan video about the Epilogue that points out something I totally misunderstood ( start at 0:48 ), that gives me hope in that regard... yet I think that we may not see "Flemeth" again as she was before. I bet Morrigan is going to be around for a loooooooooooooong while
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Post by BioFan on Aug 11, 2016 0:52:45 GMT
Wasn't there a rumor that this was Kate Mulgrew's last time voicing her as she's focusing on Orange Is The New Black?
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Post by Andrew Waples on Aug 11, 2016 2:46:55 GMT
I believe Kieran won't be seen again. I'm curious about Morrigan especially if she drank from the well. If Flemeth makes another appearance in DA, would that mean Morrigan will as well? Well why would they bother to introduce Kieran in Inqustion only to not be used in the future? While giving him little screen/voice time? Kieran gets even less if he's just a normal child. I suppose that sense Kieran no longer has the OGS he's no longer important, but still.
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Post by BioFan on Aug 11, 2016 2:50:47 GMT
I believe Kieran won't be seen again. I'm curious about Morrigan especially if she drank from the well. If Flemeth makes another appearance in DA, would that mean Morrigan will as well? Well why would they bother to introduce Kieran in Inqustion only to not be used in the future? While giving him little screen/voice time? Kieran gets even less if he's just a normal child. I suppose that sense Kieran no longer has the OGS he's no longer important, but still. He might be re-cast once he's a teen/adult, but maybe not. Because he's a child, they brought Claudia Black's son in because he's about the same age.
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Post by Command0rk on Aug 11, 2016 4:19:19 GMT
I don't think we've seen the end of Flemeth. It'd be a cop out to build her character up throughout the games just for her to 'die' in such an anti-climatic fashion before knowing her true motive. There's more in store for her. At least.. I hope we haven't seen the end of her. There is a BioFan video about the Epilogue that points out something I totally misunderstood ( start at 0:48 ), that gives me hope in that regard... yet I think that we may not see "Flemeth" again as she was before. I bet Morrigan is going to be around for a loooooooooooooong while Awesome vid, thanks for linking it! I had suspected that maybe Flemeth was storing something in the Eluvian, though I'm not sure how that would work. It makes sense that it would be part of Mythal, because as BioFan points out, we learn that Flemeth is capable of doing that in DA2. Bit of a reach, but.. it's possible the soul could find its way to Morrigan, and she sort of takes on the mantle of "Flemeth"? Overall I'm getting a Mythal v Fen'Harel vibe for the next game.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2016 16:44:41 GMT
I might sound crazy but I wonder if Flemeth placed a piece of herself within Sandal too. He mentioned seeing her and spent 9:41 and 9:42 in the Crossroads.
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Post by Entropy on Aug 11, 2016 16:55:19 GMT
Wasn't there a rumor that this was Kate Mulgrew's last time voicing her as she's focusing on Orange Is The New Black? Now that you mention it... rings a bell Sad to see her go then, I really liked how she voiced Flemeth On the bright side... we still have Claudia Black!! the sexiest voice in the universe!
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Post by BioFan on Aug 11, 2016 17:13:34 GMT
Wasn't there a rumor that this was Kate Mulgrew's last time voicing her as she's focusing on Orange Is The New Black? Now that you mention it... rings a bell Sad to see her go then, I really liked how she voiced Flemeth On the bright side... we still have Claudia Black!! the sexiest voice in the universe! Yeah she did an AMAZING job! I'm sure Morrigan will just grow in importance in the future. Really excited to see what Patrick does with her.
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Post by Domakir on Aug 11, 2016 17:17:28 GMT
Now that you mention it... rings a bell Sad to see her go then, I really liked how she voiced Flemeth On the bright side... we still have Claudia Black!! the sexiest voice in the universe! Yeah she did an AMAZING job! I'm sure Morrigan will just grow in importance in the future. Really excited to see what Patrick does with her. I just hope she doesn't suddenly forget about the warden and Kieran like she did with the WoS.
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Post by FireAndBlood on Aug 12, 2016 17:12:08 GMT
I think we have seen the last of Flemeth(and Kate Mulgrew).
Mythal on the other hand....
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Post by phoray on Aug 13, 2016 9:44:06 GMT
I think we have seen the last of Flemeth(and Kate Mulgrew). Mythal on the other hand.... Different/New body comes with a new voice. Mythall can still be present even with a different voice actor.
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Post by Reznore on Aug 13, 2016 18:25:52 GMT
I don't think it's the last we're seeing of Mythal. She died and cling on to life and suffered going from a beloved Goddess in golden palaces to a crazy old hag living in a hut in the middle of nowhere. So I'm not sure she would just say "Hey Solas buddy , of course I'm giving up everything , let me die for your mistake!" I imagine she'd be pretty cynical about getting killed at this point , (Evanuris , Morrigan/warden in some cases , and Solas all murdered her). Unless Solas was the secret love of her life and it was the last straw , I can't imagine her giving up whatever plans she has going on.
Besides she should have known Solas would wake up eventually and do whatever he's about to do . She wasn't working on preparing his arrival and helping him , that's for sure. She just come around to fix his mistakes with the Well of Sorrow and later she "sacrifice" herself to fix his mistakes again. And at the very least Solas knew about Flemeth , because he can say a random line about Flemeth hut in the Korcarri wild and he makes some comment about her.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2016 1:09:29 GMT
Awesome vid, thanks for linking it! I had suspected that maybe Flemeth was storing something in the Eluvian, though I'm not sure how that would work. It makes sense that it would be part of Mythal, because as BioFan points out, we learn that Flemeth is capable of doing that in DA2. Bit of a reach, but.. it's possible the soul could find its way to Morrigan, and she sort of takes on the mantle of "Flemeth"? Overall I'm getting a Mythal v Fen'Harel vibe for the next game. I've been thinking the same thing for a while now. I can't remember verbatim the talk that Morrigan and Flemeth have in DAI, but doesn't Flemeth tell her that she was never in any danger of being possessed by Flemeth because she would have had to agree to the possession? I think that after everything that happened in the game, *especially* if Morrigan drank from the well, that if she were to find Flemeth's soul more or less "mailed" to her eluvian through the crossroads, she might finally acquiesce to the bargain and allow the soul to pass into her. It's also possible the soul might come with some sort of plea or message attached to it - we don't really understand how this kind of magic works, after all. This is extra convenient if Kate Mulgrew really is leaving the series. Plus it does seem like the writers have always had something *more* planned for Morrigan. As far as Kieran is concerned, I think it's pretty unlikely we'll see him again. After all, with the removal of the OGS, he doesn't really serve the plot in any way. If we do see Morrigan again, I wouldn't be surprised if she just has a line that's like "He's somewhere safe," and then he isn't mentioned again.
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Post by Command0rk on Aug 15, 2016 1:40:27 GMT
I've been thinking the same thing for a while now. I can't remember verbatim the talk that Morrigan and Flemeth have in DAI, but doesn't Flemeth tell her that she was never in any danger of being possessed by Flemeth because she would have had to agree to the possession? I think that after everything that happened in the game, *especially* if Morrigan drank from the well, that if she were to find Flemeth's soul more or less "mailed" to her eluvian through the crossroads, she might finally acquiesce to the bargain and allow the soul to pass into her. It's also possible the soul might come with some sort of plea or message attached to it - we don't really understand how this kind of magic works, after all. This is extra convenient if Kate Mulgrew really is leaving the series. Plus it does seem like the writers have always had something *more* planned for Morrigan. As far as Kieran is concerned, I think it's pretty unlikely we'll see him again. After all, with the removal of the OGS, he doesn't really serve the plot in any way. If we do see Morrigan again, I wouldn't be surprised if she just has a line that's like "He's somewhere safe," and then he isn't mentioned again. If it happens that way, I feel that it also explains why ‘Flemeth’ is treated as superstition. Because Flemeth isn’t a person but a mantle of Mythal. I recall her speaking in third person on a few occasions when we meet her in Origins. And : “Names are pretty but useless. The Chasind call me ‘Flemeth’, it will do.” Perhaps Flemeth had many daughters who were also ‘Flemeth’, and Mythal’s soul persists. We know that the Elven Gods can’t maintain their power indefinitely (as Solas noted he had become weak) – so I propose that the soul is gifted to a Mage predecessor so that its power continues to be “renewed”, I guess? Morrigan is possibly next in line. But why Flemeth as a vessel of Mythal and her daughters are human and not elven is beyond me. Man I think I just said Flemeth like seven times, but I hope that ramble was coherent.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 15, 2016 13:13:09 GMT
Leaving aside what happens with Corypheus, normally it would seem that when a soul passes to a vessel it retains the form of that vessel. So whilst Mythal was once ancient elven in appearance, she looks human because Flemeth is human. The thing is we do not know exactly what the origins of the Evanuris were or why they took on a particular appearance. All the mosaics show them as bald and all the ancient elves we have encountered are bald. Which came first?
We also do not know if Flemeth was the first occasion that Mythal returned. I wonder a lot about Tyrdda Bightaxe's leaf eared lover, the laughing Lady of the Skies. To my mind "leaf eared" suggests elf eared, since their ears could be said to resemble long pointed leaves. The Lady of the Skies is an Avaar goddess but we know that they believe their "gods" are reborn in the Fade after being killed. So it is entirely possible that Mythal was reborn in an earlier era after responding to the plea of an elf and manifesting in them as she later did in Flemeth.
The reason the children of Flemeth are also human looking is that not only is Flemeth human but also the husbands she chooses to mate with, most of them seemingly being Chassind. Even if she had mated with an elf, the resulting child would be human, just as it is if the Warden is an elf and has a child with Morrigan. If someone is an elf bodily they have to mate with another elf bodily in order to have a child that looks like an elf bodily. It is not clear if there is any difference to an elf bloodied child over a full human. Certainly Michel was affected by the Crossroads in the same way that Celene and Gaspard were, so his elf blood made no difference to him there.
As for each the daughters having a piece of Mythal's soul, that is entirely possible. It would explain why Yavana was so long lived. At one time it was said there was another Witch of the Wilds in the Nahashin Marshes. Each time one of this separate entities is killed, the piece of Mythal likely returns to the main vessel, which for much of the time was Flemeth. The only thing we don't know is how many times she is able to split herself in this way.
One possibility is that it is governed by the old triad idea of Maiden/Mother/Crone, which would mean there could be three active at any one time. This would not be contradicted by what Flemeth did in DA2 because when the piece in the amulet is activated, whether Flemeth was killed or not in DAO, she relocates to the Freemarches, so there is still only one of her Flemeth persona active. Yavana was definitely killed in the comic series, so that left a vacancy. We have never encountered the Witch in the Nahashin Marshes but she may well be the crone. Whilst Flemeth seems old, she has definitely been the Mother figure, being the one to produce daughters. Mythal's main aspect as a deity was that of Mother/Protector. Yavana might well have fulfilled the role of Maiden. When she was killed her aspect returned to Flemeth. When confronting Morrigan she could be either a Mother, having had Kieran (which will happen regardless if the Warden sleeps with her at any time during DAO) or a Maiden (if she never slept with the Warden). So Morrigan would then be the potential replacement for either and whichever it is, is the one that Flemeth sends through the eluvian. Solas then gets the third piece but likely only part of its power since he is not female.
Of course there is also the figure that rose from the Well of Sorrows. To my mind that was also a part of Mythal that resided in that place until the power of the Well was claimed, when she returned to the main vessel, not doubt to alert Flemeth to the fact that the Well had been used. When the Inquisitor and/or the drinker were threatened by Corypheus, it rose to protect them while they made their escape and then passed into the eluvian. Mythal was born of the sea and is possibly in her most basic aspect a powerful water spirit. So it may be this basic form of Mythal that resided in the Well. It could even have been this aspect that Flemeth placed in the eluvian. Hence those old developer notes claiming that what she was passing on to Morrigan was her godhood.
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Post by dayze on Aug 28, 2016 0:01:03 GMT
One thing that always got me about Flemeth taking the OG from Kieran is.
She's mentioned that essentially there is no difference between her and Mythal anymore, they are both one.
But Kieran, the one w/OG, has been joined with the OG since "pre-" even existing effectively. I'm not even sure it makes sense for their to be a solo-Kieran, at least not one without a whole lot of psychological trauma from losing what is from their perspective, half of their self or personality.
A OG/Spirit joining with someone can pretty effectively over-load/whelm the original individuals spirit even a heroic or strong willed one. I mean at this point; would a human Kieran still essentially be just a "human" Old God?
As for the dreams; since being linked up to the Arch-Demon gives you some insight to what it's doing. I guess that means the OG in Kieran is up to something as well. Doesn't have to be a blight per say. But apparently Solas and Mythal aren't the only one manipulating things.
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Post by katling on Aug 28, 2016 0:43:45 GMT
I don't know what will happen with Flemeth except that I sincerely doubt Mythal is dead. If she survived what the Evanuris did to her, then she certainly survived what Solas did to her. Especially considering Solas considers her a friend and 'the best of them'. He wouldn't kill Mythal. So Flemeth may no longer be with us but Mythal is undoubtedly lurking somewhere.
But I'd say Kieran's part in the story is done and gone. I doubt we'll see him again, except maybe as a footnote in regards to Morrigan. Partly this is because he doesn't exist in any number of people's stories (including my canon world - and iirc the devs' canon world as well. Don't they have as their canon a Dalish elf who sacrifices themselves? Ergo, no OGB in the Bioware canon world) and partly because if he does exist, he doesn't have the OG soul anymore. He may be a mage, though it's not mentioned in DAI, but the thing that made him remarkable is now gone.
Personally, I think the writers deeply regret that particular part of the DAO storyline and took this as an opportunity to resolve it so that they can get rid of the endless OGB questions.
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Post by naughtynomad on Aug 28, 2016 6:43:46 GMT
I love the thoughts and speculation in this thread. Lots of things to think about.
There is a also the running theory that the original Flemeth was actually Andraste herself. Lots of parallels to the story of Andraste with some of it getting lost to legend.
Personally I think that's a bit of a stretch.
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