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Post by wintery on Aug 31, 2016 11:44:46 GMT
Well legos are kind of perfect for a blocky aesthetic  |
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Post by MzAdventure on Aug 31, 2016 14:52:20 GMT
I don't have time to respond in detail so forgive me for resorting to point form so I can still get to the Centauri. - I freely admit I'm trying to shape my opinion to something I heard/read from JMS, that Earth is a minor power at the start of the series (I'm looking for where that came from... no luck yet). *snip* No worries. That may be the longest post I've written in years lol. Anyway to your points: -I'd say a quote like that would directly counter what happens throughout the show. The B5 council is presided by Earth, Minbar, Narn Centauri Prime and the Vorlons. The League on the other hand are almost always portrayed as the minor, squabbling general assembly. I don't believe they would accept this position if they felt they were equal to any of the races on the council. This speaks to your second point as well. Consider the case of Deathwalker. If some of the League were on par or greater than humans, I don't believe they would've let the situation go on as long as it did, especially since the other major races flatly refused to get involved. Instead we see how a species truly above it all handles that. Likewise we've seen the Narn and Centauri bend or even break the rules but not so much any individual League world, or even all of them together (excluding during wartime of course where everybody can go off the rails). *snip* I'm with Vormav on this, and when I have a spare moment I will look through usenet archives to find some of the quotes about Earth's relative status in the B5 universe at the start of the series. The reason for Earth's position on the council was that we built the station. (more than once). As is said later in the series, Earth was a bit of an odd-ball in the galaxy due to our never-ending attempts at community building. The older powers were wary of us, if only because we rebuilt so quickly after the war with the Minbari and were able to take on the Dilgar, but Earth was still very much viewed as a child in many ways. But we were making enough noise that we got attention, and we built the place. Yet another aspect of the series that Mass Effect eerily echos. |
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Post by CrutchCricket on Aug 31, 2016 19:52:26 GMT
The reason for Earth's position on the council was that we built the station. (more than once). As is said later in the series, Earth was a bit of an odd-ball in the galaxy due to our never-ending attempts at community building. The older powers were wary of us, if only because we rebuilt so quickly after the war with the Minbari and were able to take on the Dilgar, but Earth was still very much viewed as a child in many ways. But we were making enough noise that we got attention, and we built the place. Yet another aspect of the series that Mass Effect eerily echos. It's not just Earth's place on the council, it's the way they're treated and interact with the other races. The Vorlons and Minbari may have viewed us as children but there is no evidence any of the other races did. Quite the opposite. We built the place but no one would've cared if they merely brushed us off as children. The Centauri brought us to the galactic community and we made a name for ourselves in the Dilgar war. Then we gained some infamy in the Earth-Minbari war. We got our asses kicked, hard, in that one but did we put up a better fight than other races might have? I don't know. I'm just going by what I saw. |
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Post by Vormav on Sept 1, 2016 0:13:56 GMT
The reason for Earth's position on the council was that we built the station. (more than once). As is said later in the series, Earth was a bit of an odd-ball in the galaxy due to our never-ending attempts at community building. The older powers were wary of us, if only because we rebuilt so quickly after the war with the Minbari and were able to take on the Dilgar, but Earth was still very much viewed as a child in many ways. But we were making enough noise that we got attention, and we built the place. Yet another aspect of the series that Mass Effect eerily echos. It's not just Earth's place on the council, it's the way they're treated and interact with the other races. The Vorlons and Minbari may have viewed us as children but there is no evidence any of the other races did. Quite the opposite. We built the place but no one would've cared if they merely brushed us off as children. The Centauri brought us to the galactic community and we made a name for ourselves in the Dilgar war. Then we gained some infamy in the Earth-Minbari war. We got our asses kicked, hard, in that one but did we put up a better fight than other races might have? I don't know. I'm just going by what I saw. Babylon 5 was a curiosity and an opportunity. The other races respect the Vorlons, Minbari, Centauri, and Narns, but as far as I can see it's Earth's opportunity to build a reputation for itself and earn some of that respect as well. In the first season we see aliens having disputes, and some give up and leave ("The War Prayer"), while there seems to be a theme of surprise that Earth (Sinclair) can be reasonable ("Midnight on the Firing Line," "Deathwalker," "Believers"). In the two-part episode "A Voice in the Wilderness" I would argue that there is a lack of belief in the human authorities such that Delenn, Draal and Londo take matters into their own hands. I can't recall when it was said, but there is a discussion in an episode where they say that if any other culture had made Babylon 5, it would have been for their own people alone. The simple fact that Earth constructed the station and opened it to everyone is why people came. Certainly in the case of the Centauri we know that there was great skepticism, such that the ambassador's position there was regarded as a joke ("Dust to Dust"). The Narns took it more seriously, it would seem, but they're relatively new as well, so are looking to make connections. As to the Vorlons and Minbari, we know they took the station seriously because of the spiritual connection between Minbari and humans, and with the knowledge of Babylon 4 and Sinclair. None of this requires a powerful Earth force to happen. Indeed, later in the series, when Earth (or at least Clark) believes that they have recovered from the war with the Minbari, the value of Babylon 5 diminishes; it is the very weakness of Earth that makes building Babylon 5 desirable. |
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Post by melbella on Sept 1, 2016 2:59:40 GMT
Just going to leave this here:
"The universe speaks in many languages, but only one voice.
The language is not Narn, or Human, or Centauri, or Gaim or Minbari
It speaks in the language of hope
It speaks in the language of trust
It speaks in the language of strength and the language of compassion
It is the language of the heart and the language of the soul.
But always it is the same voice
It is the voice of our ancestors, speaking through us,
And the voice of our inheritors, waiting to be born
It is the small, still voice that says
We are one
No matter the blood
No matter the skin
No matter the world
No matter the star:
We are one
No matter the pain
No matter the darkness
No matter the loss
No matter the fear
We are one
Here, gathered together in common cause, we agree to recognize the singular truth and this singular rule:
That we must be kind to one another
Because each voice enriches us and ennobles us and each voice lost diminishes us.
We are the voice of the Universe, the soul of creation, the fire that will light the way to a better future.
We are one.
We are one."
And the video version:
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Post by CrutchCricket on Sept 1, 2016 22:28:15 GMT
Babylon 5 was a curiosity and an opportunity. The other races respect the Vorlons, Minbari, Centauri, and Narns, but as far as I can see it's Earth's opportunity to build a reputation for itself and earn some of that respect as well. In the first season we see aliens having disputes, and some give up and leave ("The War Prayer"), while there seems to be a theme of surprise that Earth (Sinclair) can be reasonable ("Midnight on the Firing Line," "Deathwalker," "Believers"). In the two-part episode "A Voice in the Wilderness" I would argue that there is a lack of belief in the human authorities such that Delenn, Draal and Londo take matters into their own hands. I can't recall when it was said, but there is a discussion in an episode where they say that if any other culture had made Babylon 5, it would have been for their own people alone. The simple fact that Earth constructed the station and opened it to everyone is why people came. Certainly in the case of the Centauri we know that there was great skepticism, such that the ambassador's position there was regarded as a joke ("Dust to Dust"). The Narns took it more seriously, it would seem, but they're relatively new as well, so are looking to make connections. As to the Vorlons and Minbari, we know they took the station seriously because of the spiritual connection between Minbari and humans, and with the knowledge of Babylon 4 and Sinclair. None of this requires a powerful Earth force to happen. Indeed, later in the series, when Earth (or at least Clark) believes that they have recovered from the war with the Minbari, the value of Babylon 5 diminishes; it is the very weakness of Earth that makes building Babylon 5 desirable. For the specific episodes: War Prayer was the one with the young Centauri couple right? They didn't deal with anyone other than Londo, humans weren't officially involved at all. Midnight on the Firing Line: Centauri and Narn are involved. The Centauri certainly aren't going to be deferential since they were the ones that brought humanity in and are superior in terms of military and technology, and pre-war Narn aren't deferential to anyone. Deathwalker: Again why even ask humans for justice if you consider them inferior? The Vorlons certainly didn't. Believers: Here is a case where the aliens in question really don't give a damn about human authority or power but it's a matter of (zealous) religious faith, not politics, military or technology. A Voice in the Wilderness: Hardly a fair example with tensions between B5 command staff and the Destroyer parked outside. The humans were in a conflict of interest. I wouldn't call that a lack of belief in human authority, more like "human authority is kind of tied up at the moment". Good points, but I don't believe mere curiosity could've made B5 work for so long with so many races not invested in the bigger picture. I agree with you about the advisory board member races, but the League of Non Aligned Worlds (and other misc aliens) are a different matter. The draw of B5 was a place for diplomacy, commerce and understanding but for it to work for any of the minor races, they would've needed assurances that humanity could defend their interests and maintain neutrality. Until the Clark fiasco the other races never would've dreamed of contributing to B5's defenses, it was all Earthforce. Therefore to reasonably do business there you had to trust that Earthforce could protect you. And as for Clark, he didn't exactly write off B5. Sheridan was assigned there because they thought he'd be a yes man, being a stickler for the rules. And when shit did finally hit the fan Clark tried to reclaim it and put it under his thumb as hard as any other colony. The only reason he failed hilariously was because the Minbari were like "lol nope". |
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Post by Vormav on Sept 1, 2016 23:43:42 GMT
Babylon 5 was a curiosity and an opportunity. The other races respect the Vorlons, Minbari, Centauri, and Narns, but as far as I can see it's Earth's opportunity to build a reputation for itself and earn some of that respect as well. In the first season we see aliens having disputes, and some give up and leave ("The War Prayer"), while there seems to be a theme of surprise that Earth (Sinclair) can be reasonable ("Midnight on the Firing Line," "Deathwalker," "Believers"). In the two-part episode "A Voice in the Wilderness" I would argue that there is a lack of belief in the human authorities such that Delenn, Draal and Londo take matters into their own hands. I can't recall when it was said, but there is a discussion in an episode where they say that if any other culture had made Babylon 5, it would have been for their own people alone. The simple fact that Earth constructed the station and opened it to everyone is why people came. Certainly in the case of the Centauri we know that there was great skepticism, such that the ambassador's position there was regarded as a joke ("Dust to Dust"). The Narns took it more seriously, it would seem, but they're relatively new as well, so are looking to make connections. As to the Vorlons and Minbari, we know they took the station seriously because of the spiritual connection between Minbari and humans, and with the knowledge of Babylon 4 and Sinclair. None of this requires a powerful Earth force to happen. Indeed, later in the series, when Earth (or at least Clark) believes that they have recovered from the war with the Minbari, the value of Babylon 5 diminishes; it is the very weakness of Earth that makes building Babylon 5 desirable. For the specific episodes: War Prayer was the one with the young Centauri couple right? They didn't deal with anyone other than Londo, humans weren't officially involved at all. Midnight on the Firing Line: Centauri and Narn are involved. The Centauri certainly aren't going to be deferential since they were the ones that brought humanity in and are superior in terms of military and technology, and pre-war Narn aren't deferential to anyone. Deathwalker: Again why even ask humans for justice if you consider them inferior? The Vorlons certainly didn't. Believers: Here is a case where the aliens in question really don't give a damn about human authority or power but it's a matter of (zealous) religious faith, not politics, military or technology. A Voice in the Wilderness: Hardly a fair example with tensions between B5 command staff and the Destroyer parked outside. The humans were in a conflict of interest. I wouldn't call that a lack of belief in human authority, more like "human authority is kind of tied up at the moment". Good points, but I don't believe mere curiosity could've made B5 work for so long with so many races not invested in the bigger picture. I agree with you about the advisory board member races, but the League of Non Aligned Worlds (and other misc aliens) are a different matter. The draw of B5 was a place for diplomacy, commerce and understanding but for it to work for any of the minor races, they would've needed assurances that humanity could defend their interests and maintain neutrality. Until the Clark fiasco the other races never would've dreamed of contributing to B5's defenses, it was all Earthforce. Therefore to reasonably do business there you had to trust that Earthforce could protect you. And as for Clark, he didn't exactly write off B5. Sheridan was assigned there because they thought he'd be a yes man, being a stickler for the rules. And when shit did finally hit the fan Clark tried to reclaim it and put it under his thumb as hard as any other colony. The only reason he failed hilariously was because the Minbari were like "lol nope". Sorry about my episode references and the confusion they seem to have caused. I'll be more clear about what I'm referencing in the episodes. In "The War Prayer" I was referring to the Homeguard assault on the League ambassador (looks reminiscent of a fish) that they try to get Sinclair to kill. Unfortunately I appear to have mixed up their (fish ambassador's) inclusion in this episode and in "Deathwalker," where I believe they deliver the line that they will be withdrawing from Babylon 5 after losing faith in the system. "Midnight on the Firing Line" has Londo and Sinclair trying to manipulate the council to take a stance against the Narns, against their own governments' wishes. In the case of all three episodes, "Midnight on the Firing Line," "Deathwalker" and "Believers," the alien governments are at least somewhat taken aback by Sinclair's stance/solution, implying that they weren't expecting an Earth representative to be so reasonable (i.e. vote in favour of sanctioning Narn, negotiate directly and favourably with the League over Deathwalker, and side with the aliens over Dr. Franklin), regardless of the outcome. Fair points about needing to trust Earthforce to protect them and with respect to Clark, and there certainly was a lot going on with "A Voice in the Wilderness" that makes things murky (which, as an aside, is one of the things I cherish so much about this show: just about everything is murky; it's easy to have an amicable debate over a wide range of topics within the series). The kernel of doubt I have about Clark and his intentions for Babylon 5 come from Clark officials downplaying the station's value, but I grant that his attempt to retake the station by force severely undercuts what they say (actions vs. words, and whatnot). I don't claim any hard evidence for the strength of Earth at the beginning of the series, but, at least for me, it isn't necessary to define it in order to enjoy the series. But it can be fun to discuss. |
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Post by CrutchCricket on Sept 2, 2016 1:34:02 GMT
Sorry about my episode references and the confusion they seem to have caused. I'll be more clear about what I'm referencing in the episodes. In "The War Prayer" I was referring to the Homeguard assault on the League ambassador (looks reminiscent of a fish) that they try to get Sinclair to kill. Unfortunately I appear to have mixed up their (fish ambassador's) inclusion in this episode and in "Deathwalker," where I believe they deliver the line that they will be withdrawing from Babylon 5 after losing faith in the system. "Midnight on the Firing Line" has Londo and Sinclair trying to manipulate the council to take a stance against the Narns, against their own governments' wishes. In the case of all three episodes, "Midnight on the Firing Line," "Deathwalker" and "Believers," the alien governments are at least somewhat taken aback by Sinclair's stance/solution, implying that they weren't expecting an Earth representative to be so reasonable (i.e. vote in favour of sanctioning Narn, negotiate directly and favourably with the League over Deathwalker, and side with the aliens over Dr. Franklin), regardless of the outcome. Fair points about needing to trust Earthforce to protect them and with respect to Clark, and there certainly was a lot going on with "A Voice in the Wilderness" that makes things murky (which, as an aside, is one of the things I cherish so much about this show: just about everything is murky; it's easy to have an amicable debate over a wide range of topics within the series). The kernel of doubt I have about Clark and his intentions for Babylon 5 come from Clark officials downplaying the station's value, but I grant that his attempt to retake the station by force severely undercuts what they say (actions vs. words, and whatnot). I don't claim any hard evidence for the strength of Earth at the beginning of the series, but, at least for me, it isn't necessary to define it in order to enjoy the series. But it can be fun to discuss. Right- my point is why have faith in the system to begin with if the race is perceived as inferior? I believe these examples can be chalked up to Sinclair's diplomatic skills. I would not claim humans are generally seen as enlightened in the series. It may be the opposite, given what they're known for is winning a war and then horribly almost losing another one shortly after. But enlightened and technologically and militarily on par are two different things. As for Clark yeah his propaganda is as hilarious as it is infuriating. This show has made me realize I have very little tolerance for that kind of "truth bending". That episode with the political officer? I already wanted to strangle her halfway through. Another sign of amazing writing, directing and acting: by Season 4 Clark has been painting Sheridan as an alien controlled Hitler, more or less. Re-watching the episode when he returns from Z'ha'dum and gives that inspirational speech to rally everyone to strike back at the Shadows I realized that with a slight change in editing and audio that inspirational speech by a messianic hero could indeed be made to look like the raving of a mad dictator. A re-telling of B5 where the Clark administration are actually the good guys and Sheridan and Co are evil psychos would be disturbingly easy to pull off. And it'd be much better than that hack job ISN tried to do  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2016 2:00:51 GMT
That episode with the political officer? The blonde tart? (May as well've had "hatefuck me" trampstamped on her...) |
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Sept 3, 2016 9:34:34 GMT
"Everybody is cute. Even me. But in purple, I'm stunning!"
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Post by Obsidian Gryphon on Sept 17, 2016 15:07:30 GMT
The only visible sign of my preference for Babylon 5.  I painted this on one of my my bedroom walls, if I'm not mistaken, in the late 90's. I had wanted to add other stuff from B5 too but left it alone. Directly below this is my PC setup.  |
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Post by CrutchCricket on Sept 18, 2016 4:56:40 GMT
Man, it is hard to find a good Psi Corps pin online.
The one on Amazon claims to be a faithful reproduction to the ones on the show but even a cursory glance at any picture will reveal that to be blatant falsehood.
If anyone has any leads, please let me know.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Sept 22, 2016 21:49:12 GMT
So let's talk Ironheart.
His character was a one-off in Season 1. But does it run kinda counter to the greater mythology shown in later seasons?
Telepaths were created by Vorlons and we're shown it's no easy task. So how is the Psi Corps able to "upgrade" him to what he becomes, accidentally to boot? And what is he in the end? He seems to even surpass First One status as all the First Ones we see still need to rely on vessels and physical forms to some extent, other than Lorien. Is he on par with Lorien? And what do the Vorlons make of all this? Kosh is suspiciously absent during Mind War.
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Post by wintery on Sept 25, 2016 10:44:27 GMT
Ironheart: "Well, I have now ascended. What shall I do?"
Vorlons: (moving knight/ranger on chessboard)
Shadows: (moving biship/Morden on chessboard)
Ironheart: "Seriously guys, this is pretty cool. Is there something we could be doing with all this power?"
Vorlons: (moving pawn/human on chessboard)
Shadows: (moving pawn/battlespider on chessboard)
Ironheart: "Okay then, I'll just go... wander."
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Post by ComingOfShadows on Sept 30, 2016 4:21:03 GMT
Great thread, a home away from home for wanderers (like me). So Ironheart eh. I kind of was glad he never was seen again because he seemed a bit too much considering how it was quite a task as you said for the vorlons to make telepaths, let alone a first one level "person/thing". Also i wonder how much the Shadows were involved with Psi Corps at the time, and if they would even want a super telepath/first one to exist.. Or maybe they decided to be stupid and help with it. To me, he seemed like a token creation to give Talia superpowers (which ultimately amounted to nothing). Speaking of which, since Psi Corps got Talia back, and she probably was elevated to Lyta OP status, Psi Corps should have learned some interesting things from her dissecti- examination... Im personally glad he was largely forgettable in the grand scheme of things, kinda weak story imo. However thinking about it, being a lone first one, who utterly had no clue what was going on previously in the episode, i assume he had no idea what he was doing floating out in space. As first ones could be killed, and since he didnt even know what a first one was or if dying was possible... he probably tried to fly into a sun to see the inside and blew himself up or something. I have no idea, but to me he seemed like a baby with nukes, just because he was energy now i dont think he was instantly brilliant because of his powers. Heck in thirdspace you can see that the first ones do dumb things without thinking. I guess i just didnt like his character very much either. Terrible person. He sadistically and brutally murdered that Psi Cop for no reason whatsoever  since he chose to not harm Bester. As for floating in space, well as you said Lorien did that. When Kosh was fighting Kosh 2, they did go into space as they went into the vorlon ship , so i was under the impression they could survive in space. Maybe i was just assuming too much, but i had the idea they could float through space but at obvious sub light speeds... mostly using the ships for distance travel and for appearances. Of course Loriens departure in S4 kind of disputes that. |
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Post by CrutchCricket on Sept 30, 2016 15:35:01 GMT
Great thread, a home away from home for wanderers (like me). So Ironheart eh. I kind of was glad he never was seen again because he seemed a bit too much considering how it was quite a task as you said for the vorlons to make telepaths, let alone a first one level "person/thing". Also i wonder how much the Shadows were involved with Psi Corps at the time, and if they would even want a super telepath/first one to exist.. Or maybe they decided to be stupid and help with it. To me, he seemed like a token creation to give Talia superpowers (which ultimately amounted to nothing). Speaking of which, since Psi Corps got Talia back, and she probably was elevated to Lyta OP status, Psi Corps should have learned some interesting things from her dissecti- examination... Im personally glad he was largely forgettable in the grand scheme of things, kinda weak story imo. However thinking about it, being a lone first one, who utterly had no clue what was going on previously in the episode, i assume he had no idea what he was doing floating out in space. As first ones could be killed, and since he didnt even know what a first one was or if dying was possible... he probably tried to fly into a sun to see the inside and blew himself up or something. I have no idea, but to me he seemed like a baby with nukes, just because he was energy now i dont think he was instantly brilliant because of his powers. Heck in thirdspace you can see that the first ones do dumb things without thinking. I guess i just didnt like his character very much either. Terrible person. He sadistically and brutally murdered that Psi Cop for no reason whatsoever since he chose to not harm Bester. As for floating in space, well as you said Lorien did that. When Kosh was fighting Kosh 2, they did go into space as they went into the vorlon ship , so i was under the impression they could survive in space. Maybe i was just assuming too much, but i had the idea they could float through space but at obvious sub light speeds... mostly using the ships for distance travel and for appearances. Of course Loriens departure in S4 kind of disputes that. The Shadows came into prominence with the Clark administration and the parts of Psi Corps that was in league with them (Bureau 13?). Given we later see Bester opposed the Shadows but is quite content manipulating the various levels of government/military that Psi-Corps' position is much more complex than for/against anything. I assume both sides of that arrangement were ultimately self-serving and were only in it as long as they benefitted (which would be on par with Shadow philosophy anyway). As to whether the Shadows wanted telepaths, clearly they did. As tools, but I don't think they'd turn away telepaths who thought like them (and Psi-Corps is as close as you get). Ironheart though was an unexpected outcome that no one could've predicted. I can agree with this. I find it odd that this is the case though given how planned out everything was. But I suppose even with years developing something some ideas can still elude you. On First Ones and Ironheart's nature: Like I said, Lorien seems to be the only truly incorporeal or "optionally corporeal" being. The other First Ones clearly still require vessels. Even the Vorlons are still composed of matter. Glowy, floaty, super-advanced matter, but they're still corporeal according to lore. I don't think they could survive in a vacuum. As for Ironheart, a transcendence of mind and body was definitely implied, so sorry, I don't think he dun goofed  Though his parting line increases the confusion, instead of decreasing it. He says he'll see us in a million years. As we now know, that time is significant. But that enforces the overall plan of Shadow War-> get the hell out of our galaxy-> humanity's own transcendence. A plan Ironheart seems to break, or at least not fit in very well. Humans in a million years will be Vorlon-like but still require ships. So Ironheart is still ahead of them? |
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Post by ComingOfShadows on Sept 30, 2016 23:54:05 GMT
I see what you mean, I suppose Ironheart was sort of a unexpected outcome so it doesn't matter who helped create him. (My Babylon 5 is slightly rusty, its been at least 2 months since i was re watching it again) Yeah I admit it, his "transcendence of mind" was implied, im just biased for a few reasons... Kosh 1 and 2 while fighting did fly through a vacuum briefly to get inside the Vorlon ship, but the ship also exploded right after so whether or not that was healthy for them or not i cant say. (Maybe they were dead before that happened i dont know) So i would say that Ironheart is on the level of Lorien, how it happened i dont know... I recalled reading something JMS said about Ironheart not returning in the show because he didnt like "omnipotent beings running around in his galaxy". I think that right there says jms intended him to be beyond the average first ones. Out of lore, im not sure jms exactly knew what he was doing entirely with the first ones powers yet and he might of been meant to be their equal. Or maybe in a million years he came back to guide humans through the transition, if he was so smart it would be a nice thing to do. So where did he go? I always wondered if he went "beyond the rim" and ran into the other first ones. Did he watch everyone from afar? Did he watch some of the first ones come back and help them? I have to assume he left altogether (or in my humor did something silly). He seemed to have a lot of information that could of been helpful to Talia and company about Psi Corps if he was so worried about them. But nahh poof "see ya I got better things to do". Maybe he didnt know how to go into corporeal form and help out, at least a little... Id argue that him considering himself too powerful and too "great" to get involved with protecting the people he cares about to say he lost some of the more basic elements that I think, would make him a good person. Sure i get the whole not wanting to use/abuse his powers or something concept, but i still feel that abandoning them the way he did means he lost some of his humanity. Which is something thats a reoccurring theme in the show, people trying to do the right thing and not always succeeding. Obviously thats a complicated subject and im sure there are very good arguments against my stance. I just know if something like that happened to me i sure as hell would do a bit more to protect people i care about before i stepped back, if i needed to leave for their own good. I'm not talking about even using his powers to help them, as much as just give more information he had, like he did with Sinclair before he transformed. It came across as stuck up and arrogant "I'm too good for you folks now bye bye" for my tastes. So am i asking for too much from a 1 off character in a episode? Yeah probably, but its exactly why i don't think he should of existed on that level. JMS said he was too OP for reoccurring, i say too OP for any episode. |
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Post by yourfunnyuncle on Oct 1, 2016 8:27:51 GMT
Every time I see the "Aliens" meme guy, I think of Centauri...  |
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Post by MzAdventure on Oct 2, 2016 0:08:18 GMT
Every time I see the "Aliens" meme guy, I think of Centauri... Holy crap! Me too, every time! |
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Post by CrutchCricket on Oct 5, 2016 15:01:21 GMT
Kosh 1 and 2 while fighting did fly through a vacuum briefly to get inside the Vorlon ship, but the ship also exploded right after so whether or not that was healthy for them or not i cant say. (Maybe they were dead before that happened i dont know) The other Vorlon is called Ulkesh, at least according to online sources. We don't know why he didn't give his own name. Probably because he didn't consider the humans worthy of hearing it. There's speculation that most Vorlons are more like Ulkesh. Given what we know of the Vorlons now and that they probably crossed the line more than the Shadows did as I argued here, this is likely. Kosh was an outlier, probably an eccentric or a weirdo among his people. We don't know if the Vorlon reaction to his death was because he was deeply respected among his people or just outrage on principle that the primitives got one of them killed. So i would say that Ironheart is on the level of Lorien, how it happened i dont know... I recalled reading something JMS said about Ironheart not returning in the show because he didnt like "omnipotent beings running around in his galaxy". I think that right there says jms intended him to be beyond the average first ones. Out of lore, im not sure jms exactly knew what he was doing entirely with the first ones powers yet and he might of been meant to be their equal. Or maybe in a million years he came back to guide humans through the transition, if he was so smart it would be a nice thing to do. So where did he go? I always wondered if he went "beyond the rim" and ran into the other first ones. Did he watch everyone from afar? Did he watch some of the first ones come back and help them? I have to assume he left altogether (or in my humor did something silly). He seemed to have a lot of information that could of been helpful to Talia and company about Psi Corps if he was so worried about them. But nahh poof "see ya I got better things to do". Maybe he didnt know how to go into corporeal form and help out, at least a little... Id argue that him considering himself too powerful and too "great" to get involved with protecting the people he cares about to say he lost some of the more basic elements that I think, would make him a good person. Sure i get the whole not wanting to use/abuse his powers or something concept, but i still feel that abandoning them the way he did means he lost some of his humanity. Which is something thats a reoccurring theme in the show, people trying to do the right thing and not always succeeding. Obviously thats a complicated subject and im sure there are very good arguments against my stance. I just know if something like that happened to me i sure as hell would do a bit more to protect people i care about before i stepped back, if i needed to leave for their own good. I'm not talking about even using his powers to help them, as much as just give more information he had, like he did with Sinclair before he transformed. It came across as stuck up and arrogant "I'm too good for you folks now bye bye" for my tastes. So am i asking for too much from a 1 off character in a episode? Yeah probably, but its exactly why i don't think he should of existed on that level. JMS said he was too OP for reoccurring, i say too OP for any episode. That or "omnipotent" is just shorthand. He did do alright with keeping players who would trivialize some plots out of the way when they went down. Though some of them were rather obviously put on a bus. Like I said, where was Kosh during the Ironheart situation? When that Asian girl developed telepathic powers and they were debating where to send her, Kosh wasn't even mentioned. Granted she was more likely to grow another head than be taken in by the Vorlons as far as anyone knew but still. Actually they didn't try the Centauri either and come to think of it, that was a more glaring omission. And it may have been a better match for her. Centauri do prize wealth, and their telepaths are treated like regular operatives. Plus she wouldn't have been scared by Londo or Vir. And then of course there's Talia. Quite a few plots could've been resolved faster or better with her around actually using her talent. That would've gotten her more screentime which is what Andrea Thompson wanted and then maybe she would've stuck around for the rest of the series  But I digress. Given we know the significance of a million years, it's possible Ironheart stuck around that long exploring this galaxy like the other First Ones not involved in the war (would've been cool to see him at Coriana VI). Then with humans ascended he might've made contact but eventually moved beyond the Rim, leaving the rest of humanity to play the Vorlon role for those younger races until it was their time to move on. It's also possible he might've grown indifferent to the concerns of lesser beings (kind of like I argue Shepard does in Control) which is why we don't see him again. And that growing indifference can't be judged as "good" or "bad" I think. It just is. It's what logically would happen to an entity so far above everything else. That's what Dr. Manhattan is supposed to deconstruct, the idea that vast powers so beyond us would actually care what we do. I wonder if JMS meant that part of Mind War as a tribute to Watchmen. And this is supported by the First Ones themselves. We are like ants to them. Even the Vorlons and Shadows do everything they do to prove they're right to themselves and each other. They don't actually care about us. The only ones that fully break this rule is Kosh and Lorien. Lorien being the First One (maybe not literally but at least as far being beyond the other First Ones as they are beyond us) by all rights should not have given a damn about Sheridan and the rest of us, even if he did fall into his "lap". He certainly scoffed at the Shadows' worship of him. |
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Post by ComingOfShadows on Oct 5, 2016 17:37:15 GMT
Kosh was an outlier, probably an eccentric or a weirdo among his people. We don't know if the Vorlon reaction to his death was because he was deeply respected among his people or just outrage on principle that the primitives got one of them killed. If i remember right, it was after Kosh died and Ulkesh (might as well be more polite and call him by his actual name then) showed up, that the Vorlons started to go crazy. Well destroying planets and not caring that is. Obviously they did crazy things before anyway... Now the way i always saw it, and this is just my thoughts, was Kosh liked and actually cared about the younger races. So obviously whatever reports he was sending back to the Vorlons was positive. Whereas Ulkesh was a bit nasty and didnt like them, sent a different tone of reports, and combined with Kosh dying, helped change the way the Vorlons had been handling the situation. For example Kosh says Sheridan and company are doing well, things are looking hopeful with him in charge etc. Ulkesh shows up after Kosh dies and says, these guys are hopeless... lets go to plan B. With Kosh getting killed and all it seems like thats reasonable to me. Now thats staking a lot on what one Vorlon has to say, but i didnt get the impression from Kosh that plan B was going to happen while he was around. He was just so nice to everyone, in his own way. I do recall reading that JMS said Kosh was the older of the two and he didnt really like Ulkesh because he thought he was crazy. Of course we dont get told that in the show, i think it was on the JMS posts. I cant recall for sure. Just one of those little random tidbits we dont see in the show, but sort of makes sense when you hear it. Its really nice reading what you have to say, btw. |
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Post by CrutchCricket on Oct 11, 2016 22:08:53 GMT
People need to be in this thread more. Where'd everyone go? In other news, I found a rare gem the other day: The first of the techno-mage books!  www.sff.net/people/jcavelos/tm1.htpHaven't had a change to start reading it yet but I'm pretty excited. Will post review and such after I'm done. Wonder how hard the others will be to track... |
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Post by Vormav on Oct 12, 2016 0:37:52 GMT
... And that growing indifference can't be judged as "good" or "bad" I think. It just is. It's what logically would happen to an entity so far above everything else. That's what Dr. Manhattan is supposed to deconstruct, the idea that vast powers so beyond us would actually care what we do. I wonder if JMS meant that part of Mind War as a tribute to Watchmen. And this is supported by the First Ones themselves. We are like ants to them. Even the Vorlons and Shadows do everything they do to prove they're right to themselves and each other. They don't actually care about us. The only ones that fully break this rule is Kosh and Lorien. Lorien being the First One (maybe not literally but at least as far being beyond the other First Ones as they are beyond us) by all rights should not have given a damn about Sheridan and the rest of us, even if he did fall into his "lap". He certainly scoffed at the Shadows' worship of him. Maintaining the analogy, it's possible that Kosh and Lorien liked keeping ant farms. |
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Post by melbella on Oct 12, 2016 3:45:12 GMT
People need to be in this thread more. Where'd everyone go? In other news, I found a rare gem the other day: The first of the techno-mage books! www.sff.net/people/jcavelos/tm1.htpHaven't had a change to start reading it yet but I'm pretty excited. Will post review and such after I'm done. Wonder how hard the others will be to track...
The others look to be available from Amazon. I still haven't read these 3, and I've had them forever.  Really liked Galen in Crusade, and the mages trolling Londo is never not funny.
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Be seeing you.
I painted this on one of my my bedroom walls, if I'm not mistaken, in the late 90's. I had wanted to add other stuff from B5 too but left it alone. Directly below this is my PC setup. 
since he chose to not harm Bester. 
Though his parting line increases the confusion, instead of decreasing it. He says he'll see us in a million years. As we now know, that time is significant. But that enforces the overall plan of Shadow War-> get the hell out of our galaxy-> humanity's own transcendence. A plan Ironheart seems to break, or at least not fit in very well. Humans in a million years will be Vorlon-like but still require ships. So Ironheart is still ahead of them?
But I digress. 
Really liked Galen in Crusade, and the mages trolling Londo is never not funny.