Babylon 5 Discussion: Special Poll Edition!

(mostly responding to Cyberstrike here and building on what CrutchCricket was saying)

Gideon had a reputation for getting things done, and being apolitical about it, which was why he got the job (as I recall; that, and he was the best of the rest). In the short time that we saw him, however, I don't think he really accomplished all that much. Part of that is due to the fact that Crusade was more of an ensemble piece from the start, so there wasn't as much focus on him as there was on Sinclair in season one of B5. The bigger part is that we only got 13 episodes, so we didn't have much of a chance to see him shine between the lack of focus on him and the number of episodes. B5 was also an ensemble show, to be sure, but there was significant effort put into building up Sinclair so that later events would feel justified (and, to briefly revisit something I had said about him earlier, Sinclair was made out to be nearly perfect, to his and the show's detriment).

I can concede that Sheridan and Gideon are comparable based on Sheridan's first 13 episodes (going beyond that might be unfair to Gideon, and certainly would be unfair if we considered events from seasons 3 and 4). Both have backstories that tell us they can get shit done, but I think Sheridan's taking out of the Black Star is more bad-ass than Gideon's winning an Apocalypse Box in a poker game and having the luck to be outside his ship when it's destroyed. (And yes, I completely agree that seeing the Black Star taken out in In the Beginning was a let down). Both were captains before getting their on-screen gigs, and I think being captain of an explorer class ship is more impressive than being captain of an Omega class destroyer (impressive in its own right). Through 13 episodes they both saw roughly as much intrigue and improvised solutions as each other, so to me it comes down to Black Star vs. explorer ship, so I have to give it to Sheridan. Looking ahead, it's entirely likely that Gideon was about to undergo a very Sheridan-like arc, too....

That said, I probably found Gideon to be a more interesting character than Sheridan.

As to Lochley, I just don't see a comparison with the others, but I'm open to seeing one made. I didn't dislike her character, I just thought she played a supporting role to Sheridan and crew in season 5 and was just starting to come into her own by the end -- I liked what I saw of her in Crusade.

I also fail to see how convincing Earth or the ISA (or the League of Non-Aligned Worlds) to do something that they didn't want to do isn't an accomplishment (CrutchCricket gave one of my favourite examples of this, from "Rumors, Bargains and Lies," I believe).

*Gets in the elevator*
"YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES!"

Hilarious moment. I love it when plans go well.

In that case, your joke got me to reconsider something I had taken for granted. So... well done

I just found this thread. Lots of memories here...

A friend and I saw a few minutes in the middle of the pilot and thought... no. Just no.

Then a few months later I guess I saw the preview for "The Coming of Shadows" and it was one of the most intriguing things I'd ever seen. I had to know what was going on there. I did a bit of reading in the Lurker's Guide and discovered it was this long story with huge backstory and the Shadows and all these conspiracies and I'm like "Okay I think I'm in."

My first actual episode was "Hunter, Prey" which... not the best, but I liked the atmosphere and the station and the fun interplay between Garibaldi and Franklin. I started talking about it and some guy at work had the first six episodes of season two on videotape.

I watched them with a friend and halfway through "Points of Departure" she said "Damn, now I'm really into this". Later I showed "The Coming of Shadows" to a couple of friends and they were mocking it in the beginning. By the end they were saying, "Why didn't you bring the next one?"

I remember reading JMS posting about the show and lots of conversations with people. The third and fourth seasons are still some of my favorite TV I've ever seen.

Favorite characters: Delenn, Londo, G'Kar, Ivanova, Morden. I mentioned Delenn, right?

Wintery is a B5 fan? Least surprising thing I've read today. A woman of impeccable taste.

Most likely we did. We talked about a whole lot of things in the Sera thread and beyond. It probably got lost among the 25476 B5 conversations I've had.

Whenever talk turns to sci-fi on TV, I always bring it up, be it on Facebook or video game, music or photography fora. Many, like Wintery, were put off initially, and over the years I've convinced a few people that it was worthwhile to give it another try. It's quite satisfying when people thank you for the recommendation.

I've thought the Centauri weren't actually as powerful as they made it sound. They were just more isolated as a whole from the other league races; creating a perspective of strength where it doesn't necessarily exist. Middling fish in a small pond. Combine that with some nostalgia and real government corruption/decay and voila, "the glorious Centauri republic's better days" are really more smoke and shadow than fond memory.

I'll get to my opinion of the Certauri when I've got a bit more time, but I want to get to this while it's still hot:

I disagree with your hierarchy on the placement of Earth. Earth is a nascent space-faring world, having only recently encountered alien civilizations. They do not have artificial gravity generation without using rotating sections, and still use relatively primitive weapon systems (missiles and targeting computers come to mind). Humans rate better ff you count involvement in the Rangers or later ISA, but on their own, and certainly at the beginning of the series, humans are at best on par with some of the stronger non-aligned worlds (but probably not as strong as the Drazi, who can apparently hold their own against the Certauri). Remember that the Dilgar were beating the entire League on their own before human intervention, which strongly suggests the Dilgar were superior to any individual element they were up against.

Post series, after humans got their hands on Shadow tech... that's likely a much different story.

General note: the races I listed are not in order of strength on their own line i.e. Earth > Narn or Centauri.

Otherwise, apart from artificial gravity Earth ships are not quite as behind as you claim. For one thing Earth destroyers are clearly shown using some kind of laser beam weapon more often than they do missiles. Secondly low yield energy weapons and missiles are standard armament for just about every race short of Minbari or First One level advancement. The Minbari are said to specifically use their antigravity to power their engines as well as weapons putting them closer to the Vorlons than anyone else (though still way of their league on that front). Come to think of it the maneuverability of "gravity drives" is one of the largest stated advantages the Minbari and Centauri have over Earth. Centauri armaments are more powerful but not in a whole other class from Earthforce. Centauri fleets also suffer from only really building one type of cruiser that has no fighter bays. They make up for it with a formation for interlocking fields of fire, but still, that could easily be exploited.

As for the Dilgar they went from soundly beating the entire League to soundly being beaten once humans got involved. I don't see how that suggests anything other than humans thoroughly outclassing them in combat. From what I remember, it's not quite described as a roflstomp, but it's not by the skin of their teeth either. Finally, ignoring Humans Are Special from our perspective, there's gotta be a reason everybody but the Minbari, Vorlons, Centauri and Narn treat humans with such deference and why Babylon 5 is so important to them. Remember, the aliens believe it's the last best hope for peace (and later victory) as well. They would not do so if humans were weaker than they were, especially the Drazi.

Well at the start they kind of were. They had gotten so many Centauri weapons and built up while the Centauri were almost in freefall decline that politically they could go back and forth. Hell the whole series started with the Narn taking over Ragesh 3 and until the Shadows got involved the Narn were so militant you actually thought they would be the aggressors. From a pure technical advancement perspective, yes, Narn still hadn't cracked artificial gravity and the lack of telepaths would've been a weakness in a fair fight. But before the Shadows got involved the Narn were unmistakably on the rise while the Centauri were quite the opposite. It's telling that the Centauri needed the Shadows to spark them up again too. While if they really put their minds to it they probably could've defeated the Narn in fair open combat, they simply didn't have the stomach and tenacity for it- something that's explicitly stated as the cause for the Narn rise. The just wore them out. An adversary who can't maintain the fight will still lose even if they should be the superior side.

Humans Are Special- not the first place this trope showed up and Mass Effect won't be the last. That's another reason why I say B5 was ME before ME was a thing. Humanity discovers aliens who jump our tech by a few centuries, largely via gateways that fling you across vast distances of space. We inadvertently step on alien toes and get into a fight early on that's eventually abandoned and now human ingenuity, resourcefulness and tenacity has made us big players on the galactic scene, whether some races want us there or not. But little do we know that forces beyond our understanding are converging in a cycle as they always do and one man will have to unite everybody to fight back and break the cycle, making everyone friends and romancing an exotic alien babe and also something something Jesus metaphor.... guess which franchise I'm talking about

"Even at the height of our power we never crossed [the Minbari]"- from In the Beginning. Londo flat out states that no matter how conquest happy the Centauri got they never messed with the Minbari. There's reverence, almost fear there. Remember before the Babylon project, the Minbari kept pretty much to themselves. They weren't quite as isolationist as the Vorlons but there was a similar air of mystery about them all the same. Now flash forward to Vir's report- Londo's already met several Minbari at that point, got drunk and generally made an ass of himself in front of them. It's obvious that earlier reverence has evaporated due to familiarity. Hell you could argue the same thing happens with Kosh even. Everyone's curious but wary of the Vorlons including Sheridan. But the more time he spends with him the bolder he becomes to the point where he even shouts and talk him down. And this is a being that can not only spread him all over the walls with a thought but one that he's been manipulated to regard with almost godlike awe.

I'm not sure what the second paragraph is trying to say. The Centauri had barely started exploring the stars when the last Shadow war was moped up- they had nothing to do with it. Are you saying the Minbari could've beaten the Shadows? Because... no. Not at all. The side of light (Minbari, Vorlons and whoever else) had to call in, not just the other First Ones but literally cheat with time travel and a station from a thousand years in the future to win. As for the White Stars they're a mix of Minbari (already OP compared to the rest of the younger races) and Vorlon tech (wtfroflpwn level). It was the probably the latter that made them somewhat able to stand up to Shadow vessels. They couldn't really take a lot of hits from a Shadow ship but as you said, a few of them working together could bring one down.

Otherwise, we (the younger races) couldn't harm the Shadows- or the Vorlons. When did you see a Shadow vessel fall to conventional fire? Maybe if an entire fleet all concentrated fire and the Shadow just stood there. But it was both more maneuverable and its attack shredded ships in seconds flat. The only time Shadow vessels were destroyed it was either a one off trap (blowing a jump gate or getting one stuck in Jupiter's gravitational pull) or involved some combination of White Stars, telepaths or Vorlon/ other First One ships. Same with the Vorlons- we never saw Vorlon ships be destroyed. Or even Vorlons themselves. The only way to kill a Vorlon is with Shadows or another Vorlon and freakin Lorien watching. The only way to kill Shadows is with nukes (on a partly Vorlon ship)

No worries. That may be the longest post I've written in years lol. Anyway to your points:

-I'd say a quote like that would directly counter what happens throughout the show. The B5 council is presided by Earth, Minbar, Narn Centauri Prime and the Vorlons. The League on the other hand are almost always portrayed as the minor, squabbling general assembly. I don't believe they would accept this position if they felt they were equal to any of the races on the council. This speaks to your second point as well. Consider the case of Deathwalker. If some of the League were on par or greater than humans, I don't believe they would've let the situation go on as long as it did, especially since the other major races flatly refused to get involved. Instead we see how a species truly above it all handles that. Likewise we've seen the Narn and Centauri bend or even break the rules but not so much any individual League world, or even all of them together (excluding during wartime of course where everybody can go off the rails).

-To the Dilgar, it's possible that they stretched themselves too thin and fought a war on more fronts than they could support. There's probably some RL parallels we could draw that would likely not be coincidental. I can agree there's room for interpretation along these lines.

-I'd say careful with season 5. The enemy there might've been packing Centauri firepower but they were Shadow pod driven by Drahk. We don't know how responsive those things truly are and like I said, the way the Centauri build their ships they have to rely on precise formations to cover their weaknesses. It's unclear whether the Drahk knew and utilized these strategies, or even cared, since the goal was ambush and draw blame (and destruction) on Centauri Prime.

-My only issue with that is that while the Vorlons and Minbari are powerful, they're not really authoritative (well, for the former, not in a way that's apparent). They don't openly try and sway the other races, on the contrary they're isolationist on the surface. So while they may be respected and/or feared that wouldn't count as an endorsement for humanity in this context. They're not declaring humanity a worthy opponent on the battlefield. Their presence on B5 doesn't give the humans weight I think, it just legitimizes the endeavor itself. And if you're thinking of mentioning the Minbari War and their surrender, while that might sound good on paper, everybody who actually knows more than just the headline knows the Minbari were one step away from completely annihilating Earth. So their surrender to us doesn't elevate us, it just puts another mystery around them.

I guess it's a visual representation of technological advancement and ideals. The further along you are, the more you can do with what you build. You can craft, sculpt, etc. Since humans were just getting into stride, they could only start with the fundamental building blocks.