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Post by traks on Jan 15, 2017 21:50:43 GMT
Not sure what the fuzz is about. Presumably (we don't know the reason yet) we don't go to Andromeda to conquer that galaxy. We go there to search for habitable planets for Milky Way races - for whatever reason (I really would like to know ). The Tempest is also only one vessel of the Initiative, that doesn't mean that the Initiative doesn't take any armed ships to Andromeda for back-up. I'm pretty sure the first contact protocol is peaceful, because we are the ones that may need the Andromedians help knowing nothing about that galaxy and the ones who just want some new space to live in without "stealing" it from natives. So it might not be the best strategy to send a warship and armatures out there at the tip of the spear. Also we gotta remind, that this is a project stemming from visionary civilians, not from a military alliance of council races. The arks and the Nexus should obviously have weapons for self defense, but not every ship/vehicle send out from them. Well, imo is not believable civilians could ever be that careless. And AI member are scientists and military or ex military (As the human pathfinder shows, being an N7). Also, keep in mind most of the time civilians are way more paranoid or trigger happy than soldier in dangerous situation: reason is, mainly, they lack the experience to correctly judge how dangerous is the situation they are in. So, AI being a defenceless collection of farm ships would have zero sense for a 2.5 million light years away trip. Peaceful first contact protocol? Sure. Peaceful intention? Also ok. Zero meanings to defend the entire initiative personnel and then some from at least a menace comparable in size and firepower with the Citadel fleet? No way…Who is saying that? If you read my post, I said that he Nexus, the arks and some other vessels should be armed. The one that goes scouting doesn't have to though, because you don't want to provoke conflict. Also the people going out there better be well trained and not too trigger happy.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2017 21:51:58 GMT
Interesting design choice. The Tempest seems likened to an unarmed caravel. The choice also doesn't appear to play into or develop the typical power fantasy either. I like the idea that it could be part of the narrative.
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Post by kumazan on Jan 15, 2017 21:52:57 GMT
Not sure what the fuzz is about. Presumably (we don't know the reason yet) we don't go to Andromeda to conquer that galaxy. We go there to search for habitable planets for Milky Way races - for whatever reason (I really would like to know ). The Tempest is also only one vessel of the Initiative, that doesn't mean that the Initiative doesn't take any armed ships to Andromeda for back-up. I'm pretty sure the first contact protocol is peaceful, because we are the ones that may need the Andromedians help knowing nothing about that galaxy and the ones who just want some new space to live in without "stealing" it from natives. So it might not be the best strategy to send a warship and armatures out there at the tip of the spear. Also we gotta remind, that this is a project stemming from visionary civilians, not from a military alliance of council races. The arks and the Nexus should obviously have weapons for self defense, but not every ship/vehicle send out from them. Well, imo is not believable civilians could ever be that careless. And AI member are scientists and military or ex military (As the human pathfinder shows, being an N7). Also, keep in mind most of the time civilians are way more paranoid or trigger happy than soldier in dangerous situation: reason is, mainly, they lack the experience to correctly judge how dangerous is the situation they are in. So, AI being a defenceless collection of farm ships would have zero sense for a 2.5 million light years away trip. Peaceful first contact protocol? Sure. Peaceful intention? Also ok. Zero meanings to defend the entire initiative personnel and then some from at least a menace comparable in size and firepower with the Citadel fleet? No way… While I believe that the AI should have some means to defend itself and its population, there's just no way they could defend themselves from such a threat. They are 100,000 strong ffs, they should count themselves lucky if they can defend themselves from a menace comparable in size with the Spanish military.
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Post by spacebeetle on Jan 15, 2017 21:58:44 GMT
Well, imo is not believable civilians could ever be that careless. And AI member are scientists and military or ex military (As the human pathfinder shows, being an N7). Also, keep in mind most of the time civilians are way more paranoid or trigger happy than soldier in dangerous situation: reason is, mainly, they lack the experience to correctly judge how dangerous is the situation they are in. So, AI being a defenceless collection of farm ships would have zero sense for a 2.5 million light years away trip. Peaceful first contact protocol? Sure. Peaceful intention? Also ok. Zero meanings to defend the entire initiative personnel and then some from at least a menace comparable in size and firepower with the Citadel fleet? No way…Who is saying that? If you read my post, I said that he Nexus, the arks and some other vessels should be armed. The one that goes scouting doesn't have to though, because you don't want to provoke conflict. Also the people going out there better be well trained and not too trigger happy. I was expanding on your post and adding reasons why it would make zero sense. Not accusing you of anything As we can agree, Tempest being weaponless could be explained and justified (possibly), if the rest of the AI is armed and ready to back up the promises the pathfinder brings to the table.
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Post by traks on Jan 15, 2017 21:59:52 GMT
Who is saying that? If you read my post, I said that he Nexus, the arks and some other vessels should be armed. The one that goes scouting doesn't have to though, because you don't want to provoke conflict. Also the people going out there better be well trained and not too trigger happy. I was expanding on your post and adding reasons why it would make zero sense. Not accusing you of anything As we can agree, Tempest being weaponless could be explained and justified (possibly), if the rest of the AI is armed and ready to back up the promises the pathfinder brings to the table. Agreed.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 15, 2017 21:59:53 GMT
...The choice also doesn't appear to play into or develop the typical power fantasy either... Neither does it play into the logical contingencies and measures explorers of an unknown galaxy in a universe full of dangerous aliens would take. Isn't the Alliance first contact protocol "assume hostile"?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2017 22:01:31 GMT
...The choice also doesn't appear to play into or develop the typical power fantasy either... Neither does it play into the logical contingencies and measures explorers of an unknown galaxy in a universe full of dangerous aliens would take. Perhaps, but the story development that leads to this design choice is still unknown. Some have suggested it's ideological others have suggested it's legal. It also may not be addressed at all.
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Post by spacebeetle on Jan 15, 2017 22:04:31 GMT
Well, imo is not believable civilians could ever be that careless. And AI member are scientists and military or ex military (As the human pathfinder shows, being an N7). Also, keep in mind most of the time civilians are way more paranoid or trigger happy than soldier in dangerous situation: reason is, mainly, they lack the experience to correctly judge how dangerous is the situation they are in. So, AI being a defenceless collection of farm ships would have zero sense for a 2.5 million light years away trip. Peaceful first contact protocol? Sure. Peaceful intention? Also ok. Zero meanings to defend the entire initiative personnel and then some from at least a menace comparable in size and firepower with the Citadel fleet? No way… While I believe that the AI should have some means to defend itself and its population, there's just no way they could defend themselves from such a threat. They are 100,000 strong ffs, they should count themselves lucky if they can defend themselves from a menace comparable in size with the Spanish military. I beg to differ. In fact, I think it should be pretty viable: as we know from ME:trilogy, the longer the gun on a ship, the stronger the force of the impact. Try to image a cannon traversing the entire length of both the Nexus and the Arks, focus firing on the Destiny Ascension. I believe it would be shredded in seconds. Double it with aircraft to intercept other craft and deploy torpedos before retreating, leaving shieldless targets… I believe it would be the only sensible choice in preparation of a trip in another galaxy, 2.6 millions of light years away and with 600 years of duration.
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Post by johnnynocturne on Jan 15, 2017 22:04:53 GMT
I'm beginning to think that I want out of this chickenshit outfit.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 15, 2017 22:09:42 GMT
Isn't the Alliance first contact protocol "assume hostile"? It is? As in shoot them first and let god sort them out? That sounds dumb. I'd assume it's something like "hope for the best and prepare for the worst". Not "shoot first" but "assume they don't come in peace" It's mentioned during the From Ashes DLC when there were several marines with guns trained on Javik when he first comes aboard the Normandy
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Post by spacebeetle on Jan 15, 2017 22:09:46 GMT
Tempest being weaponless could be explained and justified Not really. Especially considering that most of the time we will likely be far from any source of help and reinforcement. Self sufficiency and versatility are the main themes of pathfinders. This we don't know yet with precision. A strike team of crazed, bloodthirsty animals ready to be deployed when the diplomatic face of the pathfinder fails to... solve the situation, could be an interesting incentive to listen to the well-mannered invaders from another galaxy… But here we’re stretching the realm of interpretations to suit best our perceptions, so I would just agree that a weaponless Nomad is silly. We will see the rest in game, I suppose.
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Post by spacebeetle on Jan 15, 2017 22:20:46 GMT
This we don't know yet with precision. A strike team of crazed, bloodthirsty animals ready to be deployed when the diplomatic face of the pathfinder fails to... solve the situation, could be an interesting incentive to listen to the well-mannered invaders from another galaxy… But here we’re stretching the realm of interpretations to suit best our perceptions, so I would just agree that a weaponless Nomad is silly. We will see the rest in game, I suppose. And how will the aliens even know that these "crazed bloodthirsty animals" even exist? You might not even be able to communicate with them. It's also hardly any kind of comfort when the Andromeda version of the Yahg is preparing you to be the main course at dinner. Well, I suppose a Pathfinder worth his badge should be at least good enough to NOT be caught and cooked by the locals. So able to escape any situation (most of them) when it becomes too hot… in a weaponless Nomad, ok, but let’s say he/she able to escape. Reports are sent back to the Ark. Send in the Apex to cull I mean, make the locals more receptive to our presence and let’s try again. Alternatively, declare EXTERMINATUS with the Nexus main gun. I suppose the news would go around in Andromeda and made the locals a little less enthusiast in trying to eat us.
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Post by pdusen on Jan 15, 2017 22:33:34 GMT
And goodbye suspension of disbelief, I will miss you. Yet again this project has made an utterly moronic choice by doing this. There is absolutely no way this would be approved and financed by any group in the Mass Effect universe because they know how dangerous the universe can be. But hey, this is Bioware's Mass Effect team we are talking about. Of course they don't let things like logic stand in their way. Now quickly, look at the shiny graphics that they dangle like keys in front of a toddler since that's what they think we are apparently. In their defense, your suspension of disbelief seems to be held together with paperclips and duct tape, it shatters so easily.
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Post by spacebeetle on Jan 15, 2017 22:39:43 GMT
Well, I suppose a Pathfinder worth his badge should be at least good enough to NOT be caught and cooked by the locals. So able to escape any situation (most of them) when it becomes too hot… in a weaponless Nomad, ok, but let’s say he/she able to escape. Reports are sent back to the Ark. Send in the Apex to cull I mean, make the locals more receptive to our presence and let’s try again. Alternatively, declare EXTERMINATUS with the Nexus main gun. ... I suppose the news would go around in Andromeda and made the locals a little less enthusiast in trying to eat us. You are both assuming that the Pathfinder will manage to escape despite his lack of heavy firepower, and that the AI itself has the means to go to war over the loss of a few operatives. How will you even send an SOS while those aliens are busy making equal portions out of you? What happens AFTER you are dead hardly matters to you anyway. The pathfinder should be focused on his own survival and completion of his mission, and for that, having more options is a good thing. Again, I agree on the general principle. I suppose hope the "how" of solving difference and achieving a dialogue with the local will be a keystone for the plot of Andromeda. Still exploration in a new galaxy should not become a riskless job thank to the superior firepower we bring to the fight. Otherwise it would be a travel of conquest instead of exploration. And yes, maybe a pathfinder or two die in the process for this reasons, and /or they must be replaced, just like we do for Dadryder. Still, no amount of firepower would be able to shield us completely from the dangers of Andromeda: it’s part of the job description, of the role of the Pathfinder. That said, and again, I agree the Nomad being without weapons is silly. I could accept instead the Tempest as it is, IF the rest of the fleet is armed to the teeth to compensate AND the Apex forces are employed in tactics the kind of wich would leave agape even the Krogan on Palaven during the Reapers wars. Otherwise, again, it would be idiotic.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Jan 15, 2017 22:44:48 GMT
Who is saying that? If you read my post, I said that he Nexus, the arks and some other vessels should be armed. The one that goes scouting doesn't have to though, because you don't want to provoke conflict. Also the people going out there better be well trained and not too trigger happy. I was expanding on your post and adding reasons why it would make zero sense. Not accusing you of anything As we can agree, Tempest being weaponless could be explained and justified (possibly), if the rest of the AI is armed and ready to back up the promises the pathfinder brings to the table. No, not really. Its the same argument with civil gun ownership. Why own shotgun if you can simply call the police when someone breaks into your house? The police is well equipped to handle such situation - no brainer, right? Well, I own a shotgun - reason is it takes the police about 15-20 minutes to get here, in an emergency that time span is an ETERNITY for being defenseless and could very well get me killed before the law enforcement officers arrive at the scene to fuck up the criminals.There is pretty much no drawback to owning a gun (if you know what you are doing) so for me it makes absolutely zero sense NOT to have one in my house. If somebody breaks in I go get my weapon AND call the police. Same can be said about the unarmed NOMAD and Tempest. Sure, you can call the cavalry from the hub to save your asses , but wouldn't it be a lot better if you can call the cavalry AND put up a good defense till it arrives, to avoid casualties? Like, with heavy crew-served weapons from the NOMAD and aerial support from the nimble Tempest so you're not a sitting duck? Also, I can see no real drawbacks from having heavy weapons on vehicles, for example rockets have a lot bang for their buck, you can put those on the lightest aircrafts (even drones) and have the ability to destroy tanks.
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Post by Sartoz on Jan 15, 2017 22:47:18 GMT
So why are Ryder and squadmates carrying weapons? ,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸
LOL, Bio could say to protect themselves from hostile planetary fauna.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2017 22:47:33 GMT
Interesting design choice. The Tempest seems likened to an unarmed caravel. The choice also doesn't appear to play into or develop the typical power fantasy either. I like the idea that it could be part of the narrative. I agree. I'm more intrigued by this than turned off by it.
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Post by kumazan on Jan 15, 2017 22:49:50 GMT
While I believe that the AI should have some means to defend itself and its population, there's just no way they could defend themselves from such a threat. They are 100,000 strong ffs, they should count themselves lucky if they can defend themselves from a menace comparable in size with the Spanish military. I beg to differ. In fact, I think it should be pretty viable: as we know from ME:trilogy, the longer the gun on a ship, the stronger the force of the impact. Try to image a cannon traversing the entire length of both the Nexus and the Arks, focus firing on the Destiny Ascension. I believe it would be shredded in seconds. Double it with aircraft to intercept other craft and deploy torpedos before retreating, leaving shieldless targets… I believe it would be the only sensible choice in preparation of a trip in another galaxy, 2.6 millions of light years away and with 600 years of duration. Yes, if the Arks have a cannon the size of their length, they could be a pretty strong defense on their own. The Nexus, however, is way too big to be maneuver quickly enough to hit anything other than a planet or a space station. And I don't know how many personnel would be left to operate other kind of ships, but I suspect not enough for more than a few fighters, and with luck a handful of frigates. So yeah, in retrospect I may have been a bit too hyperbolic, but I still doubt they could face the Citadel fleet and not come harshly defeated.
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Post by spacebeetle on Jan 15, 2017 22:55:06 GMT
I was expanding on your post and adding reasons why it would make zero sense. Not accusing you of anything As we can agree, Tempest being weaponless could be explained and justified (possibly), if the rest of the AI is armed and ready to back up the promises the pathfinder brings to the table. No, not really. Its the same argument with civil gun ownership. Why own shotgun if you can simply call the police when someone breaks into your house? The police is well equipped to handle such situation. Well, I own a shotgun - reason is it takes the police about 15-20 minutes to get here, in an emergency that time span is an ETERNITY for being defenseless and could very well get me killed before the law enforcement officers arrive at the scene to fuck up the criminals.There is pretty much no drawback to owning a gun (if you know what you are doing) so for me it makes absolutely zero sense NOT to have one in my house. If somebody breaks in I go get my weapon AND call the police. Same can be said about the unarmed NOMAD and Tempest. Sure, you can call the cavalry from the hub to save your asses , but wouldn't it be a lot better if you can call the cavalry AND put up a good defense till it arrives, to avoid casualties? I have difficulties understanding your perspective then, living as I am in a country where the procurement of firearms for normal citizen is difficult and generally acknowledged as unneeded. Even when (Or especially because) I’m unfortunately able to break bones bare handed, I would be very open minded dealing with races of a new galaxy, preferring a brainy approach of a sort, studying potential menaces for longer than necessary on long range scanners, before trying a first contact face to face approach. If the risk factors are too much for me or my companions, I wouldn't even bother with that, sending instead the Apex as first approach. But as I've said we're talking interpretations here.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2017 22:56:48 GMT
Neither does it play into the logical contingencies and measures explorers of an unknown galaxy in a universe full of dangerous aliens would take. Perhaps, but the story development that leads to this design choice is still unknown. Some have suggested it's ideological others have suggested it's legal. It also may not be addressed at all. I also agree here. Story wise, we don't yet know how this design choice is going to be used, so we can't really assess whether it's going to detract from or enhance that story; and we won't be in a position to assess it fairly until after we do know that story. Gameplay-wise, we can probably safely assume that there will be no situation presented in the game that will require weapons from either the Nomad or Tempest to be used by the player in order to beat the level. The combat situations they put us in will all be able to be handled with the weapons we do have. So, for me, that we don't have them is a non-issue. I'll wait to assess whether or not I like the story, when I know the story. However, anyone who is turned off of the game by this revelation should still have ample time to decide to just not buy the game.
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Post by GannayevOfDreams on Jan 15, 2017 22:57:35 GMT
Our ship may be unarmed but our crew certainly isn't. Not if those gameplay videos are anything to go by. They're like 90% violence. I guess the Tempest is like a Trojan horse. We look innocuous enough, but let us land on your planet and we will f--k your s--t up!
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Jan 15, 2017 23:01:26 GMT
No, not really. Its the same argument with civil gun ownership. Why own shotgun if you can simply call the police when someone breaks into your house? The police is well equipped to handle such situation. Well, I own a shotgun - reason is it takes the police about 15-20 minutes to get here, in an emergency that time span is an ETERNITY for being defenseless and could very well get me killed before the law enforcement officers arrive at the scene to fuck up the criminals.There is pretty much no drawback to owning a gun (if you know what you are doing) so for me it makes absolutely zero sense NOT to have one in my house. If somebody breaks in I go get my weapon AND call the police. Same can be said about the unarmed NOMAD and Tempest. Sure, you can call the cavalry from the hub to save your asses , but wouldn't it be a lot better if you can call the cavalry AND put up a good defense till it arrives, to avoid casualties? I have difficulties understanding your perspective then, living as I am in a country where the procurement of firearms for normal citizen is difficult and generally acknowledged as unneeded. Even when (Or especially because) I’m unfortunately able to break bones bare handed, I would be very open minded dealing with races of a new galaxy, preferring a brainy approach of a sort, studying potential menaces for longer than necessary on long range scanners, before trying a first contact face to face approach. If the risk factors are too much for me or my companions, I wouldn't even bother with that, sending instead the Apex as first approach. But as I've said we talking interpretations here. Who said that big guns rules out a brainy, cautious approach? I'm not talking about either going with a brainy, cautious approach or carry enough armament to start a small war - combining BOTH worlds is the way to success. Thedore Roosevelt once said: Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far. That man knew a thing or two about politics and armed confrontations.
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Post by spacebeetle on Jan 15, 2017 23:09:14 GMT
I have difficulties understanding your perspective then, living as I am in a country where the procurement of firearms for normal citizen is difficult and generally acknowledged as unneeded. Even when (Or especially because) I’m unfortunately able to break bones bare handed, I would be very open minded dealing with races of a new galaxy, preferring a brainy approach of a sort, studying potential menaces for longer than necessary on long range scanners, before trying a first contact face to face approach. If the risk factors are too much for me or my companions, I wouldn't even bother with that, sending instead the Apex as first approach. But as I've said we talking interpretations here. Who said that big guns rules out a brainy, cautious approach? I'm not talking about either going with a brainy, cautious approach or carry enough armament to start a small war - combining BOTH worlds is the way to success. Thedore Roosevelt once said: Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far. That man knew a thing or two about politics and armed confrontations. True, still I believe the size of the stick we're debating here is a matter of personal interpretation (very Freudian, btw): if the role of the Tempest is akin to the SR71 from real life, I doubt more weapons would really make a difference. And it could also be a matter of inspiring trust with the locals at our first contact. Also, now that I'm thinking about, I believe any member of the Pathfinder crew should be able to jury rig a nuke with the materials at our disposal on the ship. I mean, it isn’t so hard, with the technical know-how. So, maybe we’re not that defenceless from locals threats?
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Nightlife
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Missing the Milky Way
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Nightlife on Jan 15, 2017 23:14:07 GMT
ME:A Tempest: no Weaponry, "we come in peace."
ME:A # 2 Tempest: heavy Weaponry, "time do die."
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Jan 15, 2017 23:24:26 GMT
Who said that big guns rules out a brainy, cautious approach? I'm not talking about either going with a brainy, cautious approach or carry enough armament to start a small war - combining BOTH worlds is the way to success. Thedore Roosevelt once said: Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far. That man knew a thing or two about politics and armed confrontations. True, still I believe the size of the stick we're debating here is a matter of personal interpretation (very Freudian, btw): if the role of the Tempest is akin to the SR71 from real life, I doubt more weapons would really make a difference. And it could also be a matter of inspiring trust with the locals at our first contact? You could as well say that showing them -in a subtle way- that you haven't come all the way from your system to their home turf without the means to defend yourself and your people would be a very wise thing to do. You know, to stop them from getting bad ideas.... Also the size of the stick matters a lot when we're getting attacked by mechanized forces, bigger guns for bigger targets. Generally speaking, to take out an armed vehicle you need an armed vehicle, taking on vehicles on foot with hand guns is a terrible idea. Heck, why can't we at least have a YMIR mech as body-guard if things get ugly and we can't have heavy weapons?
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