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Post by spacebeetle on Jan 15, 2017 23:31:03 GMT
Again, I agree on the general principle. I suppose hope the "how" of solving difference and achieving a dialogue with the local will be a keystone for the plot of Andromeda. Still exploration in a new galaxy should not become a riskless job thank to the superior firepower we bring to the fight. Otherwise it would be a travel of conquest instead of exploration. And yes, maybe a pathfinder or two die in the process for this reasons, and /or they must be replaced, just like we do for Dadryder. Still, no amount of firepower would be able to shield us completely from the dangers of Andromeda: it’s part of the job description, of the role of the Pathfinder. That said, and again, I agree the Nomad being without weapons is silly. I could accept instead the Tempest as it is, IF the rest of the fleet is armed to the teeth to compensate AND the Apex forces are employed in tactics the kind of wich would leave agape even the Krogan on Palaven during the Reapers wars. Otherwise, again, it would be idiotic. The separation you are making between arming the Nomad and the Tempest is artificial and illogical. In fact, I'd argue that arming the Tempest is much more important (if it came to a choice between them, Ideally you'd arm both), since an armed Tempest can support an unarmed Nomad and the ground team, while an armed Nomad can't really help the Tempest if it was attacked in space or needed to help an ally under attack in space, etc. Well, not that much, imo. Another example: the Boeing C17 is in use in war zones to transport goods, resources and men the loss of which is not acceptable in any theatre it is used. And it costed 218 million dollars each unit in 2007: not exactly a leftover from public balance. Still, while being a unique and expensive piece of hardware with a big payload of resources to boot when fully loaded (235 tons of goods as upper limits), it is a weapon less aircraft, limited to defensive system of countermeasures devices. Why? Because of its role as tactical transport aircraft makes a weapon system unnecessary. It doesn’t make it immune to bullets or missiles though. What I’m trying to argue here, is that maybe (MAYBE) the Tempest fills a similar specific role, where a weapon system is unneeded thanks to a solid stealth system that works indefinitely (not limited like the SR1) and a superior sensor array. Coupled with an intelligent deployment and coordination with the rest of the AI forces, it wouldn’t be so bad, I suppose. |
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Post by Babar Guy on Jan 15, 2017 23:34:28 GMT
lol jk, I don't give a fuck |
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spacebeetle
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Post by spacebeetle on Jan 15, 2017 23:35:07 GMT
True, still I believe the size of the stick we're debating here is a matter of personal interpretation (very Freudian, btw): if the role of the Tempest is akin to the SR71 from real life, I doubt more weapons would really make a difference. And it could also be a matter of inspiring trust with the locals at our first contact? You could as well say that showing them -in a subtle way- that you haven't come all the way from your system to their home turf without the means to defend yourself and your people would be a very wise thing to do. You know, to stop them from getting bad ideas.... Also the size of the stick matters a lot when we're getting attacked by mechanized forces, bigger guns for bigger targets. Generally speaking, to take out an armed vehicle you need an armed vehicle, taking on vehicles on foot with hand guns is a terrible idea. Heck, why can't we at least have a YMIR mech as body-guard if things get ugly and we can't have heavy weapons? And this is why I completely agree that a NOMAD witouth teeth is just plain silly. |
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spacebeetle
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Post by spacebeetle on Jan 15, 2017 23:46:24 GMT
Well, not that much, imo. Another example: the Boeing C17 is in use in war zones to transport goods, resources and men the loss of which is not acceptable in any theatre it is used. And it costed 218 million dollars each unit in 2007: not exactly a leftover from public balance. Still, while being a unique and expensive piece of hardware with a big payload of resources to boot when fully loaded (235 tons of goods as upper limits), it is a weapon less aircraft, limited to defensive system of countermeasures devices. Why? Because of its role as tactical transport aircraft makes a weapon system unnecessary. It doesn’t make it immune to bullets or missiles though. What I’m trying to argue here, is that maybe (MAYBE) the Tempest fills a similar specific role, where a weapon system is unneeded thanks to a solid stealth system that works indefinitely (not limited like the SR1) and a superior sensor array. Coupled with an intelligent deployment and coordination with the rest of the AI forces, it wouldn’t be so bad, I suppose Another false equivalence. Neither SR71 or a C17 are used to explore an unknown galaxy (while knowing that hostile aliens are a fact). You are equating a spy plane and a transport and cargo plane to something which has an entirely different set of potential problems to solve. Because we know everything that is needed to be known about galaxy exploration, right?  I'm equating a spy plane to a potentially spy ship the role of which we don't know yet how it will be implemented in ME:A (stretching the boundaries a little, ok). AND without knowing the kind of resources and ships that will be at the disposal of the AI. Maybe I just want to keep some hope alive, before being crushed utterly in little less than 2 months… still I would find a shred of logic IF the tempest were to be used as I described. Again, it’s not that I disagree with you: it’s just that I don’t agree with you completely. As we’ve agreed more than once, the NOMAD as it is, it's just silly. |
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Post by NRieh on Jan 15, 2017 23:51:35 GMT
Yep. It's like not having a good gun + a knife in the jungle expedition just because we don't need anything like that while picking up flowers in the park.
And civillian journalists and photographers DO wear bullet-proof vests and some headgear if they're filming in Syria.
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Post by SofNascimento on Jan 15, 2017 23:51:50 GMT
The Tempest shouldn't be compared to aicrafts, but with ships.
Space combat is generally just a naval combat in 3d.
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Post by nem7 on Jan 15, 2017 23:57:41 GMT
Guys, guys! Wait!
It's not a big problem that Tempest have no guns. The problem is that NOMAD HAS NO GUNS! Because Nomad will encounter many threats on the ground. And the team is left without any artillery support!
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Post by NRieh on Jan 15, 2017 23:58:37 GMT
Somehow I doubt that we'll be allowed to go non-lethal\stealth&recon. Nothing from the gameplay suggests that (unfortunately). They've actually confirmed that most of the situations are resolved in combat.
Give me the real ME-stealth game - and I'd be the first one to accept riding a bicycle instead of MAKO. That's just not going to happen. It's neither Dishonored nor DeusEx. At best we'll get a range of options to kill the opponent...with a rifle, with a pistol. with biotics or with fire.
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Post by spacebeetle on Jan 16, 2017 0:06:48 GMT
Because we know everything that is needed to be known about galaxy exploration, right? ... Not everything, but we do know that we will encounter advanced hostile aliens. And this would have been the prudent thing to assume before setting out on this mission, considering what we know of the MW galaxy. You can hope for the best if you want, but if you don't prepare for the worst at least to some degree, you will end up suffering for it. Correction: we supposed we would have encountered hostile aliens in Andromeda. We could also suppose that any race in ME:A could have better techs than ours. That we are going to be outnumbered, outgunned and technological inferior too. Strapping a gun to a wet tissue wouldn’t make a shred of difference if we thought we were going to face a civilization on par with the Prothean, tech wise (let’s say). At that point, long range data acquisition array and intelligence gathering would be better than inferior guns, I say. But again, all of those are personal interpretations. |
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Post by spacebeetle on Jan 16, 2017 0:10:58 GMT
Somehow I doubt that we'll be allowed to go non-lethal\stealth&recon. Nothing from the gameplay suggests that (unfortunately). They've actually confirmed that most of the situations are resolved in combat. Give me the real ME-stealth game - and I'd be the first one to accept riding a bicycle instead of MAKO. That's just not going to happen. It's neither Dishonored nor DeusEx. At best we'll get a range of options to kill the opponent...with a rifle, with a pistol. with biotics or with fire. Should Bioware postpone ME:A to make “tweaks” I would breath more easily for sure. And you know what? I would wait even happily. |
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Jan 16, 2017 0:14:40 GMT
Another false equivalence. Neither SR71 or a C17 are used to explore an unknown galaxy (while knowing that hostile aliens are a fact). You are equating a spy plane and a transport and cargo plane to something which has an entirely different set of potential problems to solve. Because we know everything that is needed to be known about galaxy exploration, right? I'm equating a spy plane to a potentially spy ship the role of which we don't know yet how it will be implemented in ME:A (stretching the boundaries a little, ok). AND without knowing the kind of resources and ships that will be at the disposal of the AI. Maybe I just want to keep some hope alive, before being crushed utterly in little less than 2 months… still I would find a shred of logic IF the tempest were to be used as I described. Again, it’s not that I disagree with you: it’s just that I don’t agree with you completely. As we’ve agreed more than once, the NOMAD as it is, it's just silly. There was a stealthy spy plane in real life, the SR-71, and it was unarmed. It was flying high and fast enough to evade MOST missile threats at its time, it just took photos from very high altitude and left as quickly as possible. That worked...for a while, then missile and radar tech kept up with the plane and it was decommissioned quickly. A wonderful plane, but its only job was to take pictures while it was going very high and fast, weapons would have made little sense for that job. The tempest on the other hand, needs to land on the surface of planets which involves very low altitudes and speeds. So thanks to not having any kind of drop ship the craft is landing and deploying the crew while being completely and utterly vulnerable to all kinds of weapons intelligent lifeforms may have. You can scan the drop zone really carefully, if you miss properly armed enemy troops and/or they have technology to stay hidden and ambush the craft...oh well. Then it does not even have the means to defend itself. I don't think shooting out of its windows is going to be an option. A true spy ship never comes into such situation so it is perfectly safe not to have any kind of weapons equipped. The Tempest however, since it acts as a dropship.... Extremely risky. |
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spacebeetle
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Post by spacebeetle on Jan 16, 2017 0:14:52 GMT
Correction: we supposed we would have encountered hostile aliens in Andromeda. We could also suppose that any race in ME:A could have better techs than ours. That we are going to be outnumbered, outgunned and technological inferior too. Strapping a gun to a wet tissue wouldn’t make a shred of difference if we thought we were going to face a civilization on par with the Prothean, tech wise (let’s say). At that point, long range data acquisition array and intelligence gathering would be better than inferior guns, I say. But again, all of those are personal interpretations Saying "maybe the enemy is so strong that nothing we do matters" might be a reason to consider scrapping the AI entirely if there's an actual reason to believe that. The existence of the AI means that at the very least we don't find that possibility likely. What we ARE likely to encounter, is SOME unknown level of danger, therefore, reasonable preparation including at least some armaments is the logical thing to do. Anything less is simply criminal negligence. Let's not forget we're between a rock and a hard place here: we stay, Reapers. We die. We go, maybe we don’t die. Not all of us, at least. |
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Thrombin
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by Thrombin on Jan 16, 2017 0:19:27 GMT
Let's not forget we're between a rock and a hard place here: we stay, Reapers. We die. We go, maybe we don’t die. Not all of us, at least. The AI has nothing to do with Reapers. It leaves before they invade while most people don't even know they exist. |
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Post by Thrombin on Jan 16, 2017 0:34:12 GMT
I have no problems with a civilian vessel designed for exploration and research having no weapons. Or, for that matter, a civilian ground transport.
The army have armoured ground vehicles like APC's and Tanks. They even have jeeps with guns mounted on them. The air force have planes loaded with guns and missiles. The navy have armoured ships with guns and missiles and torpedos etc. etc.
The AI are not the military!
The vast majority of civilian transport have no weapons or armour. Do Forest Rangers mount machine guns on their trucks? Do police mount cannons on their police cars? Does Airforce One carry missiles under its wings? Do Arctic Exploration vessels have any armaments at all?
People seem to keep forgetting that these are civilians on a peaceful mission of science and discovery. They aren't there to get into fights. If they're fired on they need to be able to disengage as quickly as possible. Even if they could take down their attackers, chances are, their attackers think they're defending themselves from an unknown invader. Which means if the Tempest did cause casualties it would just make diplomacy even more difficult in the future.
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Post by Ahriman on Jan 16, 2017 0:58:59 GMT
Make love, not war, I suppose?  Milky Way Warrior Code - Though shall kill only with own hands or be remembered as coward for the rest of life. No, really, I don't get why you even pretend to have logical discussion on this one. |
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veky359
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Post by veky359 on Jan 16, 2017 1:02:05 GMT
I have no problems with a civilian vessel designed for exploration and research having no weapons. Or, for that matter, a civilian ground transport. The army have armoured ground vehicles like APC's and Tanks. They even have jeeps with guns mounted on them. The air force have planes loaded with guns and missiles. The navy have armoured ships with guns and missiles and torpedos etc. etc. The AI are not the military! The vast majority of civilian transport have no weapons or armour. Do Forest Rangers mount machine guns on their trucks? Do police mount cannons on their police cars? Does Airforce One carry missiles under its wings? Do Arctic Exploration vessels have any armaments at all? People seem to keep forgetting that these are civilians on a peaceful mission of science and discovery. They aren't there to get into fights. If they're fired on they need to be able to disengage as quickly as possible. Even if they could take down their attackers, chances are, their attackers think they're defending themselves from an unknown invader. Which means if the Tempest did cause casualties it would just make diplomacy even more difficult in the future. Ok if AI not semi military organization why tempest Armory is armed to the teeth (small arms but arms from basic pistols to rocket launcher). Is stupid unarmed ships and APCs while its crew explorers is armed better then common solder... |
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keiji
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Post by keiji on Jan 16, 2017 1:46:30 GMT
I have no problems with a civilian vessel designed for exploration and research having no weapons. Or, for that matter, a civilian ground transport. The army have armoured ground vehicles like APC's and Tanks. They even have jeeps with guns mounted on them. The air force have planes loaded with guns and missiles. The navy have armoured ships with guns and missiles and torpedos etc. etc. The AI are not the military! The vast majority of civilian transport have no weapons or armour. Do Forest Rangers mount machine guns on their trucks? Do police mount cannons on their police cars? Does Airforce One carry missiles under its wings? Do Arctic Exploration vessels have any armaments at all? People seem to keep forgetting that these are civilians on a peaceful mission of science and discovery. They aren't there to get into fights. If they're fired on they need to be able to disengage as quickly as possible. Even if they could take down their attackers, chances are, their attackers think they're defending themselves from an unknown invader. Which means if the Tempest did cause casualties it would just make diplomacy even more difficult in the future. Ok if AI not semi military organization why tempest Armory is armed to the teeth (small arms but arms from basic pistols to rocket launcher). Is stupid unarmed ships and APCs while its crew explorers is armed better then common solder...  |
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Post by dropzofcrimzon on Jan 16, 2017 1:58:09 GMT
Can we ask Walters if he would like to explore an uncharted land with no means to defend himself from the brutally ferocios possibly school bus sized wildlife that inhabits it?  |
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Post by dalinne on Jan 16, 2017 2:44:44 GMT
Can we ask Walters if he would like to explore an uncharted land with no means to defend himself from the brutally ferocios possibly school bus sized wildlife that inhabits it? Wait... you didn't kill Thresher Maws on foot playing in Insanity? Pffff... noobs...  |
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Post by dropzofcrimzon on Jan 16, 2017 2:47:56 GMT
Can we ask Walters if he would like to explore an uncharted land with no means to defend himself from the brutally ferocios possibly school bus sized wildlife that inhabits it? Wait... you didn't kill Thresher Maws on foot playing in Insanity? Pffff... noobs... not quite the point...and yes I have |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 16, 2017 2:48:51 GMT
Can we ask Walters if he would like to explore an uncharted land with no means to defend himself from the brutally ferocios possibly school bus sized wildlife that inhabits it? Wait... you didn't kill Thresher Maws on foot playing in Insanity? Pffff... noobs... Well, Ryder is supposed to be a noob when it comes to combat. |
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Post by dalinne on Jan 16, 2017 2:55:29 GMT
Wait... you didn't kill Thresher Maws on foot playing in Insanity? Pffff... noobs... Well, Ryder is supposed to be a noob when it comes to combat. If shooting Thresher Maws on foot is the basic Krogan Rite of Passage, i don't see why we Humans have to make such a big deal of it. COME ON, PEOPLE! It's more XP!!! |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2017 3:03:21 GMT
Can we ask Walters if he would like to explore an uncharted land with no means to defend himself from the brutally ferocios possibly school bus sized wildlife that inhabits it? Go ahead... ask him. Nothing is stopping you, is it? |
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keiji
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Post by keiji on Jan 16, 2017 3:15:09 GMT
Well, Ryder is supposed to be a noob when it comes to combat. If shooting Thresher Maws on foot is the basic Krogan Rite of Passage, i don't see why we Humans have to make such a big deal of it. COME ON, PEOPLE! It's more XP!!!  |
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Post by pdusen on Jan 16, 2017 3:44:40 GMT
Does anyone else remember way back when we were first told we were going to Andromeda and people was concerned that we'd be forced to play imperialist conquerors?
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