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Post by beholderess on May 15, 2017 20:12:56 GMT
After replaying the Havarl quest and talking with the sages, and Avela, I'm starting to think the Scourge was created to kill the ancient Angara because they could control the tech (and had it in them) that made worlds habitable. Either it was created by the Jardaan's enemies, or a faction of Jardaan that didn't want them to continue their plans. Doesn't it seem a bit overkill, though? The Scourge spills out into the rest of the cluster, well beyond angara worlds. And any civilization that could develop and deploy something as devastating as the Scourge could just as easily wipe out the angara by conventional means. I think it's more likely that the Scourge targeted the Jardaan's creation hub and defenses (Khi Tasira + Meridian), and happened to devastate angara worlds as an unfortunate side effect. That's kind of what I think too. It targeted Jardaan's creations, and it just so happened that the angara fit that label too. I doubt that whoever deployed the Scourge was even thinking about them.
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Post by Sable Rhapsody on May 15, 2017 20:13:09 GMT
IIRC the Scourge didn't cause the angara to scatter. It devastated their spaceflight capability and resulted in their cultural isolation from one another. The codex mentions them "rediscovering" spaceflight, which implies (to me at least) that they lost it entirely. I'm theorizing based on Drack's words. I actually dont' trust anything we found in the history, nor the Angara the more I have been listening carefully this time around. They are hiding something. They are also known to hide truths that make them look bad like that guy I meet on Voeld who told me history is not all true. IMO, if a theoretical enemy wanted to destroy the angara specifically with the Scourge, why not develop a bioweapon and deploy it on their worlds? Angara may be engineered, but they're not immune to injury or disease. Why go through all the trouble of developing a far more destructive, sophisticated, and involved dark energy weapon? The Scourge-causing weapon was detonated on Khi Tasira, and Meridian was ejected from Khi Tasira to protect it. Those two details seem to indicate that the Scourge was meant to target Jardaan technology. Any other fallout (like the damage to the angara, and the ravaging of the Heleus Cluster) seems accidental. Or a nice bonus, maybe.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2017 20:16:38 GMT
I'm theorizing based on Drack's words. I actually dont' trust anything we found in the history, nor the Angara the more I have been listening carefully this time around. They are hiding something. They are also known to hide truths that make them look bad like that guy I meet on Voeld who told me history is not all true. IMO, if a theoretical enemy wanted to destroy the angara specifically with the Scourge, why not develop a bioweapon and deploy it on their worlds? Angara may be engineered, but they're not immune to injury or disease. Why go through all the trouble of developing a far more destructive, sophisticated, and involved dark energy weapon? The Scourge-causing weapon was detonated on Khi Tasira, and Meridian was ejected from Khi Tasira to protect it. Those two details seem to indicate that the Scourge was meant to target Jardaan technology. Any other fallout (like the damage to the angara, and the ravaging of the Heleus Cluster) seems accidental. Or a nice bonus, maybe. Oh yeah lol they lost control for sure, but the question I have is were the Jardaan actually doing good or bad and was the Scourge maybe meant to stop them because they were not doing things out of the goodness of their hearts? We don't know the real reason the Angara were made either. I doubt it was to populate planets. I suspect they were made to control the tech but surpassed their creators.
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Post by PenDev0us on May 15, 2017 20:18:56 GMT
Doesn't it seem a bit overkill, though? The Scourge spills out into the rest of the cluster, well beyond angara worlds. And any civilization that could develop and deploy something as devastating as the Scourge could just as easily wipe out the angara by conventional means. I think it's more likely that the Scourge targeted the Jardaan's creation hub and defenses (Khi Tasira + Meridian), and happened to devastate angara worlds as an unfortunate side effect. That's kind of what I think too. It targeted Jardaan's creations, and it just so happened that the angara fit that label too. I doubt that whoever deployed the Scourge was even thinking about them. I was under the impression that the Jardaan were divided when it came to creating/manipulating life, following that, I was led to believe that the scourge deployment was some kind of inside job to shut down their operations, a kind of terrorist attack on ethically dubious science?
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2017 20:20:13 GMT
That's kind of what I think too. It targeted Jardaan's creations, and it just so happened that the angara fit that label too. I doubt that whoever deployed the Scourge was even thinking about them. I was under the impression that the Jardaan were divided when it came to creating/manipulating life, following that, I was led to believe that the scourge deployment was some kind of inside job to shut down their operations, a kind of terrorist attack on ethically dubious science? Yeah I was thinking it was more of their own that were trying to stop them. Some have said the Kett, but they only arrived 80 years ago. I think their story does not connect at all the to the Jardaan. The Archon was just very obsessed.
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Post by Sable Rhapsody on May 15, 2017 20:21:55 GMT
IMO, if a theoretical enemy wanted to destroy the angara specifically with the Scourge, why not develop a bioweapon and deploy it on their worlds? Angara may be engineered, but they're not immune to injury or disease. Why go through all the trouble of developing a far more destructive, sophisticated, and involved dark energy weapon? The Scourge-causing weapon was detonated on Khi Tasira, and Meridian was ejected from Khi Tasira to protect it. Those two details seem to indicate that the Scourge was meant to target Jardaan technology. Any other fallout (like the damage to the angara, and the ravaging of the Heleus Cluster) seems accidental. Or a nice bonus, maybe. Oh yeah lol they lost control for sure, but the question I have is were the Jardaan actually doing good or bad and was the Scourge maybe meant to stop them because they were not doing things out of the goodness of their hearts? We don't know the real reason the Angara were made either. I doubt it was to populate planets. I suspect they were made to control the tech but surpassed their creators. I doubt the angara ever surpassed Jardaan technological proficiency, and if they indeed did, I'm going to be extremely cross with them. All that running around trying to achieve 100% viability is kinda pointless if the angara could just press a button and make it all better All of the complaints about the kett also ring hollow if the angara *could* do things like summon a Remnant fleet, and simply chose not to. I'd prefer if the Jardaan were not "good" or "bad" as we see it. A sufficiently advanced civilization should be, quite honestly, kinda baffling to us. Humans baffled each other across technological divides, and that was a pretty minor instance of it. Maybe the Jardaan aren't malicious in the same way as the Reapers, or hegemonic conquerers like the Protheans, but just...weird. Hard to predict, hard to understand.
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Post by beholderess on May 15, 2017 20:21:59 GMT
Yeah I'm guessing they either lost control or when the ancient Angara escaped in ships with rem-tech, they scattered and the Scourge chased them. The Scourge was meant to attack anything Remnant, so the creators might not of anticipated what a mess that would cause. This also connects with Drack saying there are other worlds the Angara are hiding and Jaal getting defensive about it. IIRC the Scourge didn't cause the angara to scatter. It devastated their spaceflight capability and resulted in their cultural isolation from one another. The codex mentions them "rediscovering" spaceflight, which implies (to me at least) that they lost it entirely. At the very least, the Scourgr destroyed their rem tech space flight ability, so at least some time would have to have passed before they came up with space flight that is entirely independent on rem tech. Which, by the way, is quite an achievement. Imagine if every Protean-based tech in Milky Way was rendered unusable, and Milky Way species had to come up with an entirely diffirent technological base. Also explains why modern Angara don't know much about rem tech. When the Scourge happened, preserving Remnant knowledge was far from anybody's priorities - on the contrary, abandoning it and coming up with the type of tech that wasn't targeted by the Scourge was much more important.
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Post by kestrel on May 15, 2017 20:24:09 GMT
Every time I start theory crafting about things like the Scourge, I end up getting slightly sad, since it seems like Bioware is leaning away from Mass Effect so heavily, and so many of the questions brought up in Andromeda seem like they would better suit a sequel rather than DLC. I think I'm just sad and angsty today- I want the answers to these things, but I also want them in gameplay format, not as a bone Bioware throws us if they do end up dropping the series.
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Post by PenDev0us on May 15, 2017 20:25:45 GMT
I was under the impression that the Jardaan were divided when it came to creating/manipulating life, following that, I was led to believe that the scourge deployment was some kind of inside job to shut down their operations, a kind of terrorist attack on ethically dubious science? Yeah I was thinking it was more of their own that were trying to stop them. Some have said the Kett, but they only arrived 80 years ago. I think their story does not connect at all the to the Jardaan. The Archon was just very obsessed. Also there was that Cardinal/Primus(?) Kett lady that was very against the Archons obsession with the Jardaan, which furthers the belief that the Kett are no more tied to Rem Tech than the Initiative is. Though it is easy to see how the Kett (who already use gene mutations) would benefit from the Jardaans research... maybe that's the reason it was hit by the scourge... to remove the chance of misuse
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2017 20:26:25 GMT
Oh yeah lol they lost control for sure, but the question I have is were the Jardaan actually doing good or bad and was the Scourge maybe meant to stop them because they were not doing things out of the goodness of their hearts? We don't know the real reason the Angara were made either. I doubt it was to populate planets. I suspect they were made to control the tech but surpassed their creators. I doubt the angara ever surpassed Jardaan technological proficiency, and if they indeed did, I'm going to be extremely cross with them. All that running around trying to achieve 100% viability is kinda pointless if the angara could just press a button and make it all better All of the complaints about the kett also ring hollow if the angara *could* do things like summon a Remnant fleet, and simply chose not to. I'd prefer if the Jardaan were not "good" or "bad" as we see it. A sufficiently advanced civilization should be, quite honestly, kinda baffling to us. Humans baffled each other across technological divides, and that was a pretty minor instance of it. Maybe the Jardaan aren't malicious in the same way as the Reapers, or hegemonic conquerers like the Protheans, but just...weird. Hard to predict, hard to understand. Oh no not the Angara now. I heard the Angara on Havarl saying how it took years to use rem-tech. Only rare Angara can do it and they don't end up with brain hemorrhages like Ryder without SAM. I think they are hiding something, but not how they were created since that was a shocker. No if they could do that and were pretending not to, I'd snipe Jaal each time he congratulated me lol I think they would be grey since all Scientists are really in that area imo. Like that one Jardaan saying single life is meaningless and the logs talking about how one of their failures had to much emotions or something. That actually confuses me. If their failures were too emotional, wtf is up with the Angara? Did I read that wrong?
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Post by beholderess on May 15, 2017 20:27:47 GMT
Speaking of Scourge, with Ryder running around activating the Vaults, and now with Meridian activated and out in the open, I wonder if the Scourge is going to... notice, so to speak?
Some quests implied rather strongly that active rem tech attracts it. Meridian is going to be a downright Scourge magnet
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Post by Sable Rhapsody on May 15, 2017 20:29:56 GMT
I think they would be grey since all Scientists are really in that area imo. Like that one Jardaan saying single life is meaningless and the logs talking about how one of their failures had to much emotions or something. That actually confuses me. If their failures were too emotional, wtf is up with the Angara? Did I read that wrong? Not all of us Though the stereotype certainly has some truth to it. It's possible that the angara were not meant to be the final "version" of the species. We don't know what happens to rejected Jardaan templates. Do they seed them on vault worlds, test them out for a bit, then decide "Nah, not good enough" and destroy them before trying again? Do those templates never translate into a fully-fledged species? No idea. It's even possible that the Jardaan meant to modify their creations after seeding them into the Cluster, but never got around to it thanks to the Scourge disaster.
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Post by PenDev0us on May 15, 2017 20:30:25 GMT
Oh no not the Angara now. I heard the Angara on Havarl saying how it took years to use rem-tech. Only rare Angara can do it and they don't end up with brain hemorrhages like Ryder without SAM. I think they are hiding something, but not how they were created since that was a shocker. No if they could do that and were pretending not to, I'd snipe Jaal each time he congratulated me lol I think they would be grey since all Scientists are really in that area imo. Like that one Jardaan saying single life is meaningless and the logs talking about how one of their failures had to much emotions or something. That actually confuses me. If their failures were too emotional, wtf is up with the Angara? Did I read that wrong? An overly emotional Angara? *runs*
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2017 20:30:41 GMT
Yeah I was thinking it was more of their own that were trying to stop them. Some have said the Kett, but they only arrived 80 years ago. I think their story does not connect at all the to the Jardaan. The Archon was just very obsessed. Also there was that Cardinal/Primus(?) Kett lady that was very against the Archons obsession with the Jardaan, which furthers the belief that the Kett are no more tied to Rem Tech than the Initiative is. Though it is easy to see how the Kett (who already use gene mutations) would benefit from the Jardaans research... maybe that's the reason it was hit by the scourge... to remove the chance of misuse Yeah I think the Kett are meant to be a separate threat that helped uncover the truth of the Angara and Remnants by accident. We know they were sent to turn the Angara into Kett, but that means other alien life beyond the cluster might already be changed. That would suck and would mean no new aliens though, so I doubt they changed everyone. Then there's the benefactor who is helping the Kett. Are they human or alien is the question.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2017 20:32:10 GMT
Speaking of Scourge, with Ryder running around activating the Vaults, and now with Meridian activated and out in the open, I wonder if the Scourge is going to... notice, so to speak? Some quests implied rather strongly that active rem tech attracts it. Meridian is going to be a downright Scourge magnet Oh wow I forgot about that! Meridian itself would be the perfect target since it was ejected to avoid being destroyed! Why did humanity choose to live there again?
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Post by Beany on May 15, 2017 20:33:44 GMT
Ya, I died Edit: should note that I had to revert to an old Eos save to replay this! I scanned once and had snipers focused on me so stopped immediately lmao
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Post by beholderess on May 15, 2017 20:35:31 GMT
I doubt the angara ever surpassed Jardaan technological proficiency, and if they indeed did, I'm going to be extremely cross with them. All that running around trying to achieve 100% viability is kinda pointless if the angara could just press a button and make it all better All of the complaints about the kett also ring hollow if the angara *could* do things like summon a Remnant fleet, and simply chose not to. I'd prefer if the Jardaan were not "good" or "bad" as we see it. A sufficiently advanced civilization should be, quite honestly, kinda baffling to us. Humans baffled each other across technological divides, and that was a pretty minor instance of it. Maybe the Jardaan aren't malicious in the same way as the Reapers, or hegemonic conquerers like the Protheans, but just...weird. Hard to predict, hard to understand. Oh no not the Angara now. I heard the Angara on Havarl saying how it took years to use rem-tech. Only rare Angara can do it and they don't end up with brain hemorrhages like Ryder without SAM. I think they are hiding something, but not how they were created since that was a shocker. No if they could do that and were pretending not to, I'd snipe Jaal each time he congratulated me lol I think they would be grey since all Scientists are really in that area imo. Like that one Jardaan saying single life is meaningless and the logs talking about how one of their failures had to much emotions or something. That actually confuses me. If their failures were too emotional, wtf is up with the Angara? Did I read that wrong? I think that after the Scourge disaster, Angara had to specifically train themselves out of using Jardaan technology. Which is why so little is known of it now - because stopping relying on it or associating with it in any way was essential for survival. As for the other worlds - I believe it was explicitly stayed that yes, Angara had other worlds, and they have lost contact with a lot of them after Scourge. They are pretty sure that they exist somewhere, and they are definitely looking, but whether they have actually found them - that's a question.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2017 20:36:49 GMT
I think they would be grey since all Scientists are really in that area imo. Like that one Jardaan saying single life is meaningless and the logs talking about how one of their failures had to much emotions or something. That actually confuses me. If their failures were too emotional, wtf is up with the Angara? Did I read that wrong? Not all of us Though the stereotype certainly has some truth to it. It's possible that the angara were not meant to be the final "version" of the species. We don't know what happens to rejected Jardaan templates. Do they seed them on vault worlds, test them out for a bit, then decide "Nah, not good enough" and destroy them before trying again? Do those templates never translate into a fully-fledged species? No idea. It's even possible that the Jardaan meant to modify their creations after seeding them into the Cluster, but never got around to it thanks to the Scourge disaster. In BW they are haha Hmmm... never thought of that. Overly emotional Angara are a flaw and they were meant to be the opposite maybe? After the Jardaan vanished, the Angara populated and lived not knowing they were incomplete creations. I admit sometimes I wondered if they were pure organic or had some sort of machine in them. I first thought that when you look at Jaal trying to process everything that happened up to that point if you reject him, and says he must have made a mistake somewhere. He reminds me of EDI when she's doing tests before you let her join you.
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Post by PenDev0us on May 15, 2017 20:36:57 GMT
Yeah I think the Kett are meant to be a separate threat that helped uncover the truth of the Angara and Remnants by accident. We know they were sent to turn the Angara into Kett, but that means other alien life beyond the cluster might already be changed. That would suck and would mean no new aliens though, so I doubt they changed everyone. Then there's the benefactor who is helping the Kett. Are they human or alien is the question. OH YEAH THAT'S RIGHT! Totally forgot the Kett weren't native to Andromeda! Damn... wonder how many galaxies the Kett have behind their belts... or... is it possible the Jardaan have a foothold in numerous galaxies and the Kett came from one of them? The endgame cinematic showed a larger Kett armada, but we don't know the location... it could be in dark space just outside Andromeda (like how the reapers hid) or it could be in a neighbouring galaxy...
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2017 20:39:42 GMT
Oh no not the Angara now. I heard the Angara on Havarl saying how it took years to use rem-tech. Only rare Angara can do it and they don't end up with brain hemorrhages like Ryder without SAM. I think they are hiding something, but not how they were created since that was a shocker. No if they could do that and were pretending not to, I'd snipe Jaal each time he congratulated me lol I think they would be grey since all Scientists are really in that area imo. Like that one Jardaan saying single life is meaningless and the logs talking about how one of their failures had to much emotions or something. That actually confuses me. If their failures were too emotional, wtf is up with the Angara? Did I read that wrong? I think that after the Scourge disaster, Angara had to specifically train themselves out of using Jardaan technology. Which is why so little is known of it now - because stopping relying on it or associating with it in any way was essential for survival. As for the other worlds - I believe it was explicitly stayed that yes, Angara had other worlds, and they have lost contact with a lot of them after Scourge. They are pretty sure that they exist somewhere, and they are definitely looking, but whether they have actually found them - that's a question. Yeah and it seems Jaal might know of some based on how upset he gets at Drack when he points out they are hiding them. I also think Evfra was chosen for more than just what they say he was chosen for, and I think he knows things he does not want the AI to find out either. PenDev0us the benefactor was taken to their homeworld, but it's never said where it is located.
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Post by PenDev0us on May 15, 2017 20:39:52 GMT
Ya, I died Edit: should note that I had to revert to an old Eos save to replay this! I scanned once and had snipers focused on me so stopped immediately lmao Haha! Yeah after you whip out the scanner, eventually they block you from taking it out again... THAT'S WHEN YOU RUN AWAY FROM THEM! Aaand thats also when they 'pop a cap in yo ass'
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Post by beholderess on May 15, 2017 20:41:11 GMT
Also there was that Cardinal/Primus(?) Kett lady that was very against the Archons obsession with the Jardaan, which furthers the belief that the Kett are no more tied to Rem Tech than the Initiative is. Though it is easy to see how the Kett (who already use gene mutations) would benefit from the Jardaans research... maybe that's the reason it was hit by the scourge... to remove the chance of misuse Yeah I think the Kett are meant to be a separate threat that helped uncover the truth of the Angara and Remnants by accident. We know they were sent to turn the Angara into Kett, but that means other alien life beyond the cluster might already be changed. That would suck and would mean no new aliens though, so I doubt they changed everyone. Then there's the benefactor who is helping the Kett. Are they human or alien is the question. Yes, Kett are not related to the Scourge in any way, and have no idea about what the heck is going on with it. As far as I understand, the timeline goes kind of: The Scourge - sometime less than 600 years ago, but still at least a few centuries. And then Kett, about 80 years ago, and by the time they got there nobody had much idea about Jardaan anymore. Still, poor Angara can't catch a freaking break
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2017 20:45:15 GMT
Yeah I think the Kett are meant to be a separate threat that helped uncover the truth of the Angara and Remnants by accident. We know they were sent to turn the Angara into Kett, but that means other alien life beyond the cluster might already be changed. That would suck and would mean no new aliens though, so I doubt they changed everyone. Then there's the benefactor who is helping the Kett. Are they human or alien is the question. Yes, Kett are not related to the Scourge in any way, and have no idea about what the heck is going on with it. As far as I understand, the timeline goes kind of: The Scourge - sometime less than 600 years ago, but still at least a few centuries. And then Kett, about 80 years ago, and by the time they got there nobody had much idea about Jardaan anymore. Still, poor Angara can't catch a freaking break Yeah if you scan the vault doors on Habitat 7 Ryder says 600 years ago there were no vaults, so it happened 200 years later I think? That would be 400 years into the AI's trip that the tech appeared. The Scourge was 200/300 years after that (I think from what SAM says when you are in Eos vault and the frozen city on Voeld) and then 80 years before the AI arrived, the Kett did. I know I got the timeline wrong somewhere haha
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Post by beholderess on May 15, 2017 20:45:44 GMT
Speaking of Scourge, with Ryder running around activating the Vaults, and now with Meridian activated and out in the open, I wonder if the Scourge is going to... notice, so to speak? Some quests implied rather strongly that active rem tech attracts it. Meridian is going to be a downright Scourge magnet Oh wow I forgot about that! Meridian itself would be the perfect target since it was ejected to avoid being destroyed! Why did humanity choose to live there again? Err, because Hyperion crash-landed there and it will be impossible to move it somewhere else at this point? Basically, it's Archon's fault
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2017 20:46:32 GMT
Oh wow I forgot about that! Meridian itself would be the perfect target since it was ejected to avoid being destroyed! Why did humanity choose to live there again? Err, because Hyperion crash-landed there and it will be impossible to move it somewhere else at this point? Basically, it's Archon's fault We're screwed lol
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