Jaal Ama Darav (Official Thread)

Mar 8, 2018 2:11:27 GMT Gwyvian said:

(snip)

I agree, they likely don’t consider the consequences of their words. Likely thinking “sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can’t.” And likely think words can’t hurt at all...they can. One can never know how fragile of a state someone is in when it comes to computer screens. I even tried to warn about that before, and they dismissed me and called me names. :smh:  As Jaal said in one mission: “It’s sad how some choose to live.” 

  I’ve got so many story ideas in my documents that are set in Andromeda...many involving the Angara in some way, or Jaal, or Jaal/Ryder.

I agree on the more content part, understandable about the quality part. I am not done with the Jaal romance yet, its in progress, my second playthrough is in progress still. Looking forward to the scene on Aya!    I don’t know about the content of the others other than what I have read and seen. I can imagine so regarding Jaal’s romance. . And I have seen the complaints about lack of content for some others. I have heard that same-sex romances got shortchanged unfortunately in cases...hope they fix it the next game since they deserve better. Agreed about MET romances being kid of sparse in some ways, more so in the earlier games. True about the first game, I tried it out recently to see the difference, and there’s a significant one regarding the graphics, especially environments. Understandable about ME3, there are people who love that game. People who hate it, etc. Not to mention the ending, that is a subject best left alone, this is a Jaal thread after all.   And I agree, even despite ME3’s flaws and that ending, there is a lot of emotion in the game. Such as the Fall of Thessia, the Quarian-Geth resolution, and the mission on Tuchanka. And agreed with what it does with the relationships.

Agreed about Liara too. That Ardat Yakashi mission was...creepy! :gasp:  You could hear those creepy sounds...then see what made them- the horrors known as Banshees. I feel sorry for those whose first glimpse of them was through a sniper scope...I imagine that was a nasty surprise! I wonder what Jaal would do if he saw a Banshee through his sniper scope…(poor Jaal if that did happen...  

I know Garrus is very popular as a romance option. When I play through again as female!Shepard, going to do the Garrus romance to check it out for myself too, to see why others like it! .

Same here, have only tried Jaal so far, still in progress. Agreed, I like MEA’s focus on content size in terms of LI material with Jaal’s romance so far.

Agreed, love the Nomad banter too! I even stop to just read the subtitles when they talk, to make sure to not interrupt it.

I agree with romancing Jaal adds a certain flavor. And indeed, makes you look at things and other Angara in a totally different light.

Agreed, wish there was more tie-in stuff. Reactions from others. Especially if romancing Jaal. And would love to have had more moments too. And I wonder what would Evfra think of the relationship between Ryder and Jaal? What would Tann think? (I’d just ignore Tann, haha!) Sahuna knows about it though, I love Sahuna!

I agree. And true, dating the Charlatan (have never done that though) would affect pretty much anything on Kadara. Hopefully next game they fix that and includes more reactions and suchlike.

Agreed! And Jaalmance was just what I needed too!

Let me know what you think of the fic!  Thanks! Will read when you post them!

I agree with you too, I believe there’s such a thing as bad concepts. And agreed, a master writer could, and someone who develops their skill to that level, could take a “bad concept” and make it into something wonderful. And I agree that writers individually have to find what speaks to them first. I feel it is the key to being able to write, and finish, a story. Especially multi-chapter ones or long ones in general.

I agree with you on your ideas of what bad concepts are- Trying to write something I don’t know (I wouldn’t do this. I’d either not do it, or do the research before doing it), doesn’t necessarily excite me (this I think is key to knowing whether one can finish the story or not...if it doesn’t excite, one will lose interest since it takes effort to make good material), or it doesn't take my mind anywhere good or useful in a way that would organically advance my plot (something else important, it is not good for a writer to shoehorn in things.). I agree, if the premise of the story just sucks, it brings the story down (basically bad execution right?).

I see what you mean. I wouldn’t write that either unless it was satire or I had gone to the Dark Side of the Force.

I agree with you that there are ill advised concepts out there a plenty. Same for some things shouldn’t be attempted unless sure one can actually pull it off, or at least make a valiant attempt (agreed on that- if one has to seriously scramble and it keeps coming out insufficiently interesting or coherent, then it’s a bad concept for whoever wrote it). That sucks when that happens, which is why I try to be careful. Yes, it’s good to try new things and be imaginative and creative, but at the same time one needs to be careful to not go way too far, or bite off more than one can chew in general. Sucks you have seen that happen, and agreed, if the premise of a story is that weak that the whole thing falls apart at the seams, means the writer bit off more than they could chew or they just didn’t put in the right amount of effort and work as it would have required. And agreed, some things are just so hard to right about convincingly in a way that captivates and holds interest, and is the reason why such things shouldn’t be attempted until one’s skill level is high enough.

As for the list of downright bad concepts you typed down, I agree with everything you said. Especially the part about intentionally offensive and inhumane things. That one is a swift way to make a lot of people mad at you. I get the idea, those were very good examples.

It appears that way. When I describe, I try not to have any more than 80 words maximum for a single paragraph of description. Though I prefer to have no more than 60 words (according to another writer’s writing tips pages on another site, the pages really helped me out). Since from my experiences I had from when I didn’t describe at all left me with the need to make sure I have description to prevent such a thing again, I try to balance it. And I try to avoid “bland” or “checklist style” description. Some things I am trying to do are- use specific nouns, use adjectives, adding color, and using the five senses.

Action, I seem to be pretty good with.

Between description and dialogue, dialogue is the hardest for me. I am hard of hearing- in order to hear at all, I have to have my cochlear implant on. And even then, it is not perfect, the sound and quality fluctuates. Which, to me, renders the strategy most people use to make sure their dialogue is good- reading it out loud- ineffective. Since I fear it makes good dialogue sound bad and bad dialogue sound good at times. To overcome that since I didn’t want my dialogue to continue to be bad, I read it out loud mentally instead. I think it’s a good idea too, like what if something happens to my cochlear implant and it quits working? It won’t disrupt my writings in that case. Would suck but wouldn’t bring things to a halt. This strategy seems to be working for me.

Also, due to the fact I require subtitles to be able to understand what characters are saying on TV and suchlike, the accessibility of the dialogue has an impact on how motivated I am to write in a certain fandom.

For example, Mass Effect’s dialogue is very easily accessible- subtitles, even the audio logs in-game in pretty much all cases it appears. So I feel much more confident that I can keep the characters in-character.

Some material has partially-accessible content. For example, the anime Naruto, a series I like. Sure, I can read the books and related stuff, but the DVDs have one problem- they have English subtitles for the Japanese audio. But no English subtitles for the English audio. So as a consequence, the English subtitles for the Japanese audio don’t match the English audio. And worse, I’ve heard the subtitles are stilted. So unless I record it on TV or have saved episodes from TV, I can’t access the true dialogue.

When it comes to another game, Overwatch, I run into more problems than Naruto. None of its videos about the characters, even in YouTube, have subtitles so I can’t enjoy them that much. Same applies to the game itself, next to no subtitles except for the tutorial. And sometimes the gameplay gets frustrating such as dying to enemy special moves that are right behind me. Subtitles would at least allow me to have a chance to try to do something. Because when I try to do the same thing to other enemy players, sometimes they react quickly enough to stop me. Sometimes I’ve gotten lucky, turned around, and caught them in the act of trying to pull their special move right behind me.

Though at least there’s the wiki pages. But sometimes even they don’t have the details most hearing people would otherwise be able to easily get by playing or watching the games or shows/movies.

The presence or lack of subtitles has an impact on my motivation to write fanfics. As having them makes it easier to be able to keep the characters in-character. Since I worry about the hate coming back if I accidentally write a character or characters out of character, which is why doing Overwatch or Naruto fanfics is more difficult.

I agree. And so true about “Show, don’t tell”. I haven’t mastered that, but I still try. And that’s good to try to balance the three, I try to do the same as well. I know I need more practice and stuff. Since I know I kind of freeze up when it comes to dialogue sometimes. I can imagine so, if that does happen in my stories, I would try to add color . And understandable. Lack of description can make things confusing. It can be a tricky balance.

Will keep practicing my dialogue and description. Maybe I can make some fanfics that are heavy in both…to see how I do.

Haha, I do the same too in the Archive…

That is understandable.

I will! I can imagine so. I wanted Quarians, and I really need more Ryder/Jaal Ama Darav so I am making an “Andromeda Challenge Fanfics” series. Which will involve Ryder/Jaal in every story in some way, wrapping up with the Quarian fic! It is also to help me get into a good writing pace, and figure out description and dialogue, figure out a good balance. I agree, it’s criminal that they shortchanged us on Quarians in an MEU game… :smh:

Mar 18, 2018 0:34:51 GMT Gwyvian said:

I'm pretty sure Evfra's position is: *long suffering sigh* Of course, if we're talking my Evfra, he'd probably get into a tiff with Jaal because he's competition, hahahaha. (I'm so writing that somewhere.)
As to Tann... he's all about self-preservation and status quo; so long as her relationship doesn't directly tarnish his or the Andromeda Initiative's image, he would probably be politically correct about it and politely decline to stick his nose where it's unwanted (also I think he's painfully aware that he doesn't have enough authority to overrule Ryder and reign her in). Although, knowing Tann, he might exploit the fact and make a big deal out of it that they represent the future of angara-A.I. relations like some glorified prom king and queen. Totally see him doing that.

Mar 18, 2018 0:34:51 GMT Gwyvian said:

Sounds like pretty sensible guidelines to start off with. The more you write, the more you will get a feel for what you pepper your story with and how, with specific types of descriptions that will comprise your unique style. When I'm writing there are a few things that I have my characters regularly focus on, specific senses I use to introduce something or someone, e.g. for romance I like to lean on smell a lot, as it's not an immediately obvious sense that you think about but if you do think about it, smell is highly significant in how you perceive someone, the specifics of how I describe it (in Resistances and Dalliances I describe Evfra as having a "moonkissed" scent most often - just think about what those words evoke in you and you're immediately more aware of how Ryder must view him: for instance, based on this scent you could say he's dark and mysterious, cool and evocative). In essence, I tie what my protagonist sees, feels, hears, etc. to what kind of emotion or thoughts it evokes - anything that doesn't provoke either emotion or thought is useless information unless it's of narrative importance. I agree with not doing checklist style descriptions, you want to make your descriptions somehow significant to the scene, the character or the setting - or better yet, a combination of those.

Mar 18, 2018 0:34:51 GMT Gwyvian said:

For me, dialogue always came extremely naturally, for some reason that's just how it works for me: I see the characters in front of me and I can hear their voices and I instantly know how they would say things, it's like watching an internal movie. I mean, I have plenty of agency, but honestly? My best work happens when I don't try to interfere, I just let it play out and literally just "take notes" in the form of scenes. If I can't imagine a character saying aloud what I wrote down I delete it immediately, because that tells me that it's out of character, i.e. I'm literally putting words in their mouths - circling back to the previous point, another great description tool that immensely improves dialogue in my estimation is including facial expressions and hand gestures. It says SO much about what's going on inside someone's head even if they don't say anything.
That sounds rough.   I imagine that would definitely impact things, especially if you're trying to read aloud - but I agree, reading inside your head can work just fine for this. I've never actually tried that, reading out loud I mean - as I said above, normally I just "watch the movie" in my head and that has all the information I need, from that point onward I'm just picking and choosing exactly what details to include or leave out.

Mar 18, 2018 0:34:51 GMT Gwyvian said:

I can totally relate to this. I won't watch a movie at all if I can't understand what they're saying and there aren't subtitles to clarify, there's just too much that gets lost and I am kind of an "all or nothing" watcher/gamer - I'm not hard of hearing, but I do have trouble making out the TV clearly for some reason, so I always use subtitles anyway. I don't have this problem with games, but I like having them there anyway because it happens every once in a while that they aren't clear or articulate and I want to double check. Plus, anything that disrupts your full enjoyment of a game or movie just makes the whole experience lackluster, like I'm forgiving of a lot of technical crap, but when my game stutters, freezes, does something else totally crazy, it just kills the mood. If I couldn't understand the characters, I wouldn't understand the story by extension so of course, this matters a lot.
Of the examples you mentioned, I can't believe there are games out there that don't subtitle fully!  I would think that's a very basic thing to include.

Mar 18, 2018 0:34:51 GMT Gwyvian said:

I'm a translator by trade apart from being a writer and I know for a fact that translating subtitles requires curtailing or rephrasing what is actually said sometimes because there are a limited amount of characters you can read before the dialogue needs to move on to the next sentence; it can be annoying, but you still lose a lot - and I mean a LOT - less content than if you are watching something dubbed. The same fundamental principle applies, there's a character limit, but for dubbing you have to match the character count almost exactly to the length of time it takes for the given character to say the words in the original language. E.g. if my source sentence is 27 characters, in all likelihood I would be required to limit my target translation to 27 characters or less - sometimes you get a little leeway, +/- a few characters, but never really much more than that, if it's dubbing. In a lot of sentences this isn't a huge issue, but in a case where one language expresses exactly the same thought with significantly less or more words, you have to rephrase it in a way that still captures the essence, but which matches the source line's length. See what I mean? In contrast, with a subtitle you have a limit, but each subtitle line is displayed for quite a few seconds, so you can add quite a few extra words - the result is that the subtitles will be a lot closer to the original meaning.
As a former huge anime fan (I used to watch Naruto, too), I vastly preferred original Japanese audio with English subtitles, because even despite the restrictions of subtitles, dubbing puts a lot more pressure on the translation to conform to a foreign language's expression time. Depending on what languages you are translating between the degree of variation changes of course, e.g. between German and English, the languages are very similar (not just because English is a Germanic language, but also because we retain a lot of core similarities and derivations of same or similar words) so translating subtitles/dubbing will most likely have a nicely matching length (none of them match perfectly of course, but close enough), whereas translating between Hungarian and English (my primary language pair) you have huge differences sometimes.
I have to say though, the captions they write for English audio/Eng subtitles usually misses the mark a lot because (I suspect) they use machines to automatically transcribe it instead of having a translator work a monolingual job - it's a cheap solution that produces some pretty silly mistakes. This doesn't apply to your anime example however, because the English dub and subtitles are both independently translated from the original Japanese - so you are not getting a transcription, you are getting an actual translation. It's fascinating to compare them and think about why each translator chose those solutions, but you have to keep in mind what I said above - things literally get lost in translation.

Mar 18, 2018 0:34:51 GMT Gwyvian said:

Well, for this problem the best thing I could suggest is finding a beta reader, someone who is willing and able to give you detailed feedback on what works and what doesn't in your pieces. Having another pair of eyes on your work can do wonders to coherence and storytelling in general - but you have to find someone who works well with you and whose feedback you can accept. All in all, just keep practicing!   Seriously, the more you write, the better you'll get.

Thanks for the suggestion, will do so if I need to.  I will keep practicing!  Since I love female!Ryder/Jaal, I could make some “in between” stories, explore things deeper, or something…along with the Quarian ark story (other stories could include things like maybe meeting an actual Jardaan...that’d be something! Would want him/her on my team, hopefully he/she as some awesome weapon, gear, and armor!) Time to go plot fanfics... 

Also, if you want to, I’d like to hear your thoughts on my fanfics, especially the newest one. Since, I don’t know if I still have the problems or not, but the very people who’ve given me trouble in the past have said about my newer fanfics from 2014 that my characters are still completely uninteresting cardboard cut-outs, still talk like they’re in a Saturday Morning cartoon, action scenes are still very poorly paced, and said I haven’t improved much. They also said my talk of improvement is me being “full of skkut”(censored bad word, for the sake of forum readers who don’t like cuss words). Worse, the place seems to attract...types one would expect to encounter out in the Kadara badlands, one person said they wanted my fingers to be broken and my eyes poked out so I never write anything ever again. Yes, the person was called out by the others on the site for being too cruel, but still, its shudder worthy what that site attracts- people that you might run into in the Kadara badlands. I want to make sure I have gotten to a “good level” before I even start a series properly (like one about my female!Ryder from her days in the Milky Way, to Andromeda, and after the game onward...want to give Sakura Ryder and Jaal a hard earned happy ending!   ).

Not going to let them stop me or get me down, I will keep practicing. Glad I gave Mass Effect Andromeda a try all those months ago. I feel sorry for those who continue to avoid it for whatever reason, they’re missing out…(if I had avoided it, I would’ve missed out on Jaal and the Angara…)

Mar 22, 2018 7:44:59 GMT Gwyvian said:

I'm definitely posting a link to it here once I've got something posted and I'm definitely doing that at SOME point in the story, hahaha -- stay tuned.

Mar 22, 2018 7:44:59 GMT Gwyvian said:

Sense of smell is actually incredibly important, it can make or break friendships and romances; you don't actually necessarily even notice it, apart from finding a potential romantic partner's scent very pleasant (or even intoxicating, hahaha), but you pick up on pheromones unconsciously and react based on it. You know that instant gut reaction you get when you meet someone who you dislike the moment you set eyes on them, or when your stomach does a backflip meeting someone you're instantly attracted to? Catching their scent makes those powerful moments all the more powerful, it's not the only thing of course, but I'm sure it's happened to everyone at least once that they meet someone they wouldn't normally find physically attractive and then suddenly find themselves daydreaming about that person - I bet you anything that's the pheromones at work. Also, an interesting fact about smell is that everyone has their own palate, one person's smell might revolt you while another person finds it irresistible, or vice versa, that tells you basically whether or not you're actually compatible with someone and of course, there's no such thing as being equally compatible with everyone (unless you're a demigod or god, hahaha - and that only happens in mythology so far as I know). Of course, that's only the initiation, you still have to find out whether you match in personality, life goals, physical "parameters", etc., etc. As I'm sure everyone can agree, courting is just SO COMPLICATED, hahahaha.

Mar 22, 2018 7:44:59 GMT Gwyvian said:

What a totally ludicrous reason to not have subtitles! Not to mention that it's unfair to anyone who has any kind of difficulty with sound, I mean, even putting aside difficulty hearing (which by itself should make it DEFAULT for all game devs to include subtitles......) it's not like every accent is intelligible, nor is every voice/soundtrack volume pitch perfect, I mean, really. This should be a common sense thing, and I mean, people who mute the audio on games will do it anyway (never did that, never understood why anyone would want to do that, but if someone likes doing it, this won't stop them).

Mar 22, 2018 7:44:59 GMT Gwyvian said:

Hahaha, Pathfinder pancake! I've had the unfortunate pleasure of turning into one quite a few times, those bosh'tets are real mean up close.

Mar 22, 2018 7:44:59 GMT Gwyvian said:

This sounds terrible! No one deserves that kind of trash talk, seriously. I don't care if you're the worst writer in the world, this is just pure and simple abuse and no writer of any caliber deserves that. Honestly, I think you should just totally ignore what they're saying, it's clear from the tone of these comments that they're not at all interested in helping you or encouraging you in any way, so I wouldn't trust their "feedback" about your writing quality, this is emphatically not the place to take cues from. Is this on FF.net btw?

Mar 22, 2018 7:44:59 GMT Gwyvian said:

Send me a writing sample and I'll take a look at it, if there's truly stuff in there which could use some work it would be my pleasure to provide you with actually useful feedback to help you improve - from that point on you can feel free to do with it as you like, just keep writing and don't give up!

I will do so if needed, thanks! And I won’t give up!

Mar 22, 2018 7:44:59 GMT Gwyvian said:

Also, as to posting when you're "good enough" - you're already good enough, nowhere does it say in any "all-encompassing fanfiction rules" that you are unqualified to put your stuff out there before reaching such and such a level, this is fanfiction! It's generally not professional writers who do this to begin with (though they can, of course, I consider myself one), it's for beginner writers as much as old hats, those without vision as much as for those with grand visions, equally; but in general I feel like no one should feel as though they should be ashamed of their fanfictions. Many people write these for themselves, and that's totally OK, everyone should feel free to express themselves in the worlds they love; it's not like anyone is paying us money for this. If someone happens to love your stuff, awesome! If not, then not, but at least you had the guts to put yourself out there in the first place.

Mar 22, 2018 7:44:59 GMT Gwyvian said:

Feedback is a double-edged sword as you've experienced; sure, there are people out there who can give you useful observations that you can better your writing quality with, but there are also a lot of trolls out there who get their pleasure from tormenting others. Writers, like all artists, are especially susceptible because we are putting pieces of souls out on the internet for others to judge in a way... but even putting aside the obvious trolls, you have to decide whose feedback you have to disregard and whose to listen to: just like not everyone is good at writing, not everyone is good at giving feedback, you always have to keep that in mind! They're not always a reliable gauge of how good you actually are, the most I could say is that if your feedback is predominantly negative, you have room to improve - again, a totally fine thing! You can accept that without taking on any of the crap people try to unload on you.

So true.

Agree with what you said.

Apr 4, 2018 5:22:12 GMT Gwyvian said:

 No fear there, we'll pick up the slack, Bioware!!

Apr 4, 2018 5:22:12 GMT Gwyvian said:

That's the beauty of pheromones - your sense of smell can be very poor and you'll still pick up on them and react to it instinctively. The human body is pretty amazing that way. (I don't even know why I know things like this, hahahaha, I just tend to retain most weird information that crosses my path.)

Apr 4, 2018 5:22:12 GMT Gwyvian said:

You know, not really! I always assumed it's because I'm the only one on the team stupid enough to go that close... but after the first time I avoided it like the plague, bouncing away with my super biotics to a very safe distance, hahaha. My team mates just scatter and I barely pay attention to what they're doing.

Apr 4, 2018 5:22:12 GMT Gwyvian said:

I AM A BIOTIC GOD!   (Actually depends on which PT we're talking, in the one I'm playing right now I'm all about the tech.) Seriously though, biotics are so overpowered in this game, I'm a slaughtering machine on hard, all I do is Biotic Charge, Nova, asari sword slash (only when really necessary), repeat ad nauseam - next PT I'm trying insanity and see how I fare. For bosses and tougher enemies I may actually fire my weapon, hahaha.

To answer the question in a broader sense though, I really love combining powers; right now I'm doing a more or less pure PT for each major direction so I can try out all the associated abilities, get a feel for my favorites from each category, but it took me a while to move away from biotics (my canon from MET was a Vanguard for femShep and Infiltrator for maleShep, so I wanted to start with a Vanguard-esque PT before I tried the others - started off as an Operative with the cloak ability though, hahaha).

Hope your tech playthrough goes well!

Interesting! Experimenting with the powers in the game and how you can mix and match is fun!

Indeed! Adding powers like Warp and Flare would only make Ryder more powerful. And that’s a good one! Love using the Asari Sword slash as well! Sometimes I just dance through the bad guys with the sword if possible. I wonder how any surviving bad guys of the battle are going to explain that to their superiors if they’re still alive- “The Pathfinder was hacking us down one by one...with a sword...and dancing through us.”

A mighty biotic wind will blow upon the Kett!  Sakura Ryder is all about the biotics, haha!  I love using Singularity + Double Throw for biotic explosions! And Backlash is a lifesaver, love using that to make enemies hurt themselves. Also like Pull + Throw when used to grip one or more unfortunate foes, then hurl them. Works on explosive things too…

Going to try experimenting with different biotic combinations. Would be neat if they brought back powers like Warp and Flare. Imagine the potential…

This is what I imagine some unfortunate Kett were saying on the battlefield as they faced Sakura Ryder, Jaal, and Peebee-

Random Kett soldier: *sees Pathfinder Ryder surrounded in a biotic aura and having lifted many explosive things* “Run! It’s going to kill us all!!!” *turns to run and hears stuff flying and turns head* “Oh [translator glitches]!!!” *KABOOM!*

Kett soldier: *glares at another Kett for shooting Pathfinder’s Backlash shield which directed the gunfire right at him* You foo! You shot me! Don’t shoot at that shield, it’s redirecting our fire right at us!” *gets picked up by Peebee’s Pull* Noooooooooooooooooo! *gets hit by Throw* I am blasting off again! (see what I did there? Haha!)

Apr 4, 2018 5:22:12 GMT Gwyvian said:

I understand your reasons. If you feel like sharing sure, shoot me a PM - I don't want to bring anything down on you though, or pry if you don't want. I gave up posting on forums a long time ago when I was last writing fanfiction, I didn't have such a hard time of it, but it was a different time and I was writing in a very different style, I can totally understand if you want the past to remain the past.

I’d rather just leave it in the past. After all, it is behind me now.

That is understandable.

Thanks for understanding.