Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
92
0
Oct 20, 2024 19:50:49 GMT
Deleted
0
Oct 20, 2024 19:50:49 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2017 3:37:46 GMT
I wouldn't have thought so. But the person who provided the leak said that was the reasoning they were given, and if they are right about the leak then that gives their statements a lot of weight. I find it just as difficult to believe that gay scott getting no squadmate romance when even a gay Sara gets two is an "oversight". Hm, would be really surprised if that leak was true... it doesn't fit BW's usual structure at all, especially these days, with all those progressive writers they have on staff. It actually fits the ME structure really well. I only consider those LI's who unlock the paramour achievement to be "romances". ME 1: Straight guys - 2 Straight gals - 1 Gay guys - 0 Lesbians - 1 Skewed in favor of straight guys with everyone but gay guys, who get the least amount of options (none in this case), getting a squad romance. ME 2: Straight guys - 3 Straight gals - 3 Gay guys - 0 Lesbians - 0 Skewed in favor of straight guys and gals with no gay romances at all, let alone squad romances. ME 3: Straight guys - 5 Straight gals - 2 Gay guys - 2 Lesbians - 3 Skewed in favor of straight guys with gay guys and straight gals getting the least amount, although gay guys finally get 1 squad romance (even though it's the least amount still). So, seriously, every single game gay guys have either had or been tied for the least amount of options. And until the last game, never had a squad romance. And he could have been dead for 2 games by that time. Why is it odd for the ME team to offer another game where gay guys have the least amount of options and don't have any squad romances? It's exactly in line with the trends.
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
Oct 14, 2024 19:14:13 GMT
31,573
Hanako Ikezawa
22,990
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 25, 2017 3:45:02 GMT
ME 3: Straight guys - 5 Straight gals - 2 Gay guys - 2 Lesbians - 3 Shouldn't it be 6 for straight guys? Ashley, Jack, Kelly, Liara, Miranda, Tali.
|
|
inherit
2266
0
May 10, 2017 22:11:35 GMT
1,212
warbaby2
1,418
December 2016
warbaby2
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by warbaby2 on Feb 25, 2017 3:49:29 GMT
So, seriously, every single game gay guys have either had or been tied for the least amount of options. And until the last game, never had a squad romance. And he could have been dead for 2 games by that time. Why is it odd for the ME team to offer another game where gay guys have the least amount of options and don't have any squad romances? It's exactly in line with the trends. True, and realistically speaking, there will probably never will be more then that... but NO gay guy human squad mate love interest option? That's hard to believe.
|
|
inherit
623
0
1,140
naytnavare
734
August 2016
naytnavare
|
Post by naytnavare on Feb 25, 2017 3:49:32 GMT
Hm, would be really surprised if that leak was true... it doesn't fit BW's usual structure at all, especially these days, with all those progressive writers they have on staff. It actually fits the ME structure really well. I only consider those LI's who unlock the paramour achievement to be "romances". ME 1: Straight guys - 2 Straight gals - 1 Gay guys - 0 Lesbians - 1 Skewed in favor of straight guys with everyone but gay guys, who get the least amount of options (none in this case), getting a squad romance. ME 2: Straight guys - 3 Straight gals - 3 Gay guys - 0 Lesbians - 0 Skewed in favor of straight guys and gals with no gay romances at all, let alone squad romances. ME 3: Straight guys - 5 Straight gals - 2 Gay guys - 2 Lesbians - 3 Skewed in favor of straight guys with gay guys and straight gals getting the least amount, although gay guys finally get 1 squad romance (even though it's the least amount still). So, seriously, every single game gay guys have either had or been tied for the least amount of options. And until the last game, never had a squad romance. And he could have been dead for 2 games by that time. Why is it odd for the ME team to offer another game where gay guys have the least amount of options and don't have any squad romances? It's exactly in line with the trends. God, that's depressing.
|
|
not so salty shark
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR
Posts: 137 Likes: 958
inherit
3811
0
Feb 24, 2017 17:53:53 GMT
958
not so salty shark
137
February 2017
insaneshark
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR
|
Post by not so salty shark on Feb 25, 2017 3:54:13 GMT
The thing that most confuses me about the "pandering to straights" idea, if true (and I hope to hell it's not), is why it needs be an issue of "we must choose: appease the straight players or appease the LGBT community -- straights win because there's more of them". Honest to Fen'Harel, there's room to represent all orientations equally. The DA trilogy and to a lesser extent ME3 proved it.
I'm still hoping my curse of "ended up fretting over nothing and now feels like a jackass" strikes, and strikes hard. Surely with this amount of bitching it won't be able to resist!
|
|
Kimberly
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: kimj75
XBL Gamertag: Kimberlia
PSN: kimj75
Posts: 691 Likes: 1,751
inherit
216
0
1,751
Kimberly
691
August 2016
kimberly
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
kimj75
Kimberlia
kimj75
|
Post by Kimberly on Feb 25, 2017 3:55:31 GMT
ME 3: Straight guys - 5 Straight gals - 2 Gay guys - 2 Lesbians - 3 Shouldn't it be 6 for straight guys? Ashley, Jack, Kelly, Liara, Miranda, Tali. Kelly doesn't unlock the romance achievement does she? If she doesn't, she doesn't count with his scenario. I don't know, I never fully romanced her. I just went far enough for her to take care of my fish.
|
|
inherit
3555
0
Apr 14, 2022 23:07:25 GMT
11,193
gaycaravaggio
Oy Gay
2,940
February 2017
gaycaravaggio
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
|
Post by gaycaravaggio on Feb 25, 2017 3:57:51 GMT
The thing that most confuses me about the "pandering to straights" idea, if true (and I hope to hell it's not), is why it needs be an issue of "we must choose: appease the straight players or appease the LGBT community -- straights win because there's more of them". Honest to Fen'Harel, there's room to represent all orientations equally. The DA trilogy and to a lesser extent ME3 proved it. I'm still hoping my curse of "ended up fretting over nothing and now feels like a jackass" strikes, and strikes hard. Surely with this amount of bitching it won't be able to resist!That is something that should be plausible in the world we live in. Unfortunately, there are still some people who freak out at the idea of gay central characters. However, they would freak out regardless, even if the gay characters were side characters. The people who would not buy a game because there's gay main character in it would probably still not be likely to buy it even if there are just minor gay side characters.
|
|
inherit
2266
0
May 10, 2017 22:11:35 GMT
1,212
warbaby2
1,418
December 2016
warbaby2
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by warbaby2 on Feb 25, 2017 3:58:14 GMT
The thing that most confuses me about the "pandering to straights" idea, if true (and I hope to hell it's not), is why it needs be an issue of "we must choose: appease the straight players or appease the LGBT community -- straights win because there's more of them". Honest to Fen'Harel, there's room to represent all orientations equally. The DA trilogy and to a lesser extent ME3 proved it. I'm still hoping my curse of "ended up fretting over nothing and now feels like a jackass" strikes, and strikes hard. Surely with this amount of bitching it won't be able to resist!Short answer? Money... dialogue is expensive, and the more you have of it, the more expensive it gets. So, in the end it all comes down to main player demographics vs. game size/complexity. Not saying I agree with it, but that's business for you... apparently - if all that IS true - it didn't pay off for BW/EA to have more diverse, but ultimately more shallow character relationships. Still, I don't really believe it... it kinda runs contrary to everything BW said about MEA's relationships up until now.
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
Oct 14, 2024 19:14:13 GMT
31,573
Hanako Ikezawa
22,990
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 25, 2017 3:59:04 GMT
Shouldn't it be 6 for straight guys? Ashley, Jack, Kelly, Liara, Miranda, Tali. Kelly doesn't unlock the romance achievement does she? If she doesn't, she doesn't count with his scenario. I don't know, I never fully romanced her. I just went far enough for her to take care of my fish. If you continue the relationship in ME3 she unlocks the achievement.
|
|
Kimberly
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: kimj75
XBL Gamertag: Kimberlia
PSN: kimj75
Posts: 691 Likes: 1,751
inherit
216
0
1,751
Kimberly
691
August 2016
kimberly
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
kimj75
Kimberlia
kimj75
|
Post by Kimberly on Feb 25, 2017 4:00:08 GMT
Kelly doesn't unlock the romance achievement does she? If she doesn't, she doesn't count with his scenario. I don't know, I never fully romanced her. I just went far enough for her to take care of my fish. If you continue the relationship in ME3 she unlocks the achievement. Ah did not know that.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
92
0
Oct 20, 2024 19:50:49 GMT
Deleted
0
Oct 20, 2024 19:50:49 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2017 4:01:56 GMT
ME 3: Straight guys - 5 Straight gals - 2 Gay guys - 2 Lesbians - 3 Shouldn't it be 6 for straight guys? Ashley, Jack, Kelly, Liara, Miranda, Tali. You are totally correct. It should be 6. I missed Kelly, but she counted as an LI because she unlocked the achievement in that game! It's even more skewed. True, and realistically speaking, there will probably never will be more then that... but NO gay guy human squad mate love interest option? That's hard to believe. I legit don't find it hard to believe. I'm used to being disappointed by this team. This would be 3 out of 4 games with no gay guy human squad mate love interest option. That's not hard to believe at all. It's why I've been talking about the real statistics for years. Because I don't think people realize how skewed it's actually been. I hope I'm wrong. But I'm expecting two human male NPCs. Ain't that the truth, brother!
|
|
inherit
623
0
1,140
naytnavare
734
August 2016
naytnavare
|
Post by naytnavare on Feb 25, 2017 4:02:39 GMT
Shouldn't it be 6 for straight guys? Ashley, Jack, Kelly, Liara, Miranda, Tali. Kelly doesn't unlock the romance achievement does she? If she doesn't, she doesn't count with his scenario. I don't know, I never fully romanced her. I just went far enough for her to take care of my fish. If that's the case... should not Lesbians also be at '2'? Liara and Traynor? I didn't think Kelly counted for the achievie.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
92
0
Oct 20, 2024 19:50:49 GMT
Deleted
0
Oct 20, 2024 19:50:49 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2017 4:12:46 GMT
It's 6 (straight guys) and 3 (lesbians). Kelly didn't count in ME2 because she didn't give the achievement. But then they changed their minds and allowed her to unlock the achievement in ME3, so she counts in that game for me.
|
|
not so salty shark
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR
Posts: 137 Likes: 958
inherit
3811
0
Feb 24, 2017 17:53:53 GMT
958
not so salty shark
137
February 2017
insaneshark
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR
|
Post by not so salty shark on Feb 25, 2017 4:13:51 GMT
The thing that most confuses me about the "pandering to straights" idea, if true (and I hope to hell it's not), is why it needs be an issue of "we must choose: appease the straight players or appease the LGBT community -- straights win because there's more of them". Honest to Fen'Harel, there's room to represent all orientations equally. The DA trilogy and to a lesser extent ME3 proved it. I'm still hoping my curse of "ended up fretting over nothing and now feels like a jackass" strikes, and strikes hard. Surely with this amount of bitching it won't be able to resist!Short answer? Money... dialogue is expensive, and the more you have of it, the more expensive it gets. So, in the end it all comes down to main player demographics vs. game size/complexity. Not saying I agree with it, but that's business for you... apparently - if all that IS true - it didn't pay off for BW/EA to have more diverse, but ultimately more shallow character relationships. Still, I don't really believe it... it kinda runs contrary to everything BW said about MEA's relationships up until now. Oh yes. I absolutely understand what you're saying. Business is business and by its nature it's cruel and unfair and often makes poor decisions. However... Your final statement touches on a very valid point, too -- it runs entirely to the contrary of everything that the devs have stated in the past about the relationships in this game (and thus the little glimmer of hope I'm still holding on to). Honestly, if the gross reality is that they are cutting LGBT content due to financial constraints (or for any reason, really) I'd have more respect for them if they didn't so loudly proclaim to be such ardent defenders of LGBT interests when they won't or can't back it up with their actions.
|
|
inherit
2266
0
May 10, 2017 22:11:35 GMT
1,212
warbaby2
1,418
December 2016
warbaby2
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by warbaby2 on Feb 25, 2017 4:18:17 GMT
Short answer? Money... dialogue is expensive, and the more you have of it, the more expensive it gets. So, in the end it all comes down to main player demographics vs. game size/complexity. Not saying I agree with it, but that's business for you... apparently - if all that IS true - it didn't pay off for BW/EA to have more diverse, but ultimately more shallow character relationships. Still, I don't really believe it... it kinda runs contrary to everything BW said about MEA's relationships up until now. Oh yes. I absolutely understand what you're saying. Business is business and by its nature it's cruel and unfair and often makes poor decisions. However... Your final statement touches on a very valid point, too -- it runs entirely to the contrary of everything that the devs have stated in the past about the relationships in this game (and thus the little glimmer of hope I'm still holding on to). Honestly, if the gross reality is that they are cutting LGBT content due to financial constraints (or for any reason, really) I'd have more respect for them if they didn't so loudly proclaim to be such ardent defenders of LGBT interests when they won't or can't back it up with their actions. True... I may not be the target audience for that content, but I also find it highly unethical for a company to hype a product up for you guys only to go back on their claims in the end... when it comes down to it, we are all customers, and that's not how companies should treat us.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
584
0
Oct 20, 2024 19:50:49 GMT
Deleted
0
Oct 20, 2024 19:50:49 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2017 4:22:29 GMT
Short answer? Money... dialogue is expensive, and the more you have of it, the more expensive it gets. So, in the end it all comes down to main player demographics vs. game size/complexity. Not saying I agree with it, but that's business for you... apparently - if all that IS true - it didn't pay off for BW/EA to have more diverse, but ultimately more shallow character relationships. Still, I don't really believe it... it kinda runs contrary to everything BW said about MEA's relationships up until now. Oh yes. I absolutely understand what you're saying. Business is business and by its nature it's cruel and unfair and often makes poor decisions. However... Your final statement touches on a very valid point, too -- it runs entirely to the contrary of everything that the devs have stated in the past about the relationships in this game (and thus the little glimmer of hope I'm still holding on to). Honestly, if the gross reality is that they are cutting LGBT content due to financial constraints (or for any reason, really) I'd have more respect for them if they didn't so loudly proclaim to be such ardent defenders of LGBT interests when they won't or can't back it up with their actions. I agree with that statement completely. I really need these rumors to be false. I really appreciated having at least a couple gaming companies actively supporting the most ignored section of the gaming community. Bethesda though is currently starting to edge them out in my mind. Fallout 4 was great, and player sexual options aside there was at least one gay male npc relevant quest character on top of all 5 of the M/M romance options available (mind you the last one was added during the final dlc, but since he can take part in the rest of the game he still counts).
|
|
PhatePhoenix
N3
I talk too much.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
Origin: Phate_Phoenix13
PSN: Phate_Phoenix
Posts: 343 Likes: 817
inherit
1037
0
Aug 17, 2016 14:11:06 GMT
817
PhatePhoenix
I talk too much.
343
Aug 17, 2016 13:59:17 GMT
August 2016
phatephoenix
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
Phate_Phoenix13
Phate_Phoenix
|
Post by PhatePhoenix on Feb 25, 2017 4:37:44 GMT
APPARENTLY WE CAN INDEED FLIRT WITH KALLO. Skip to 2:24. It is mentioned passingly, briefly. Romance not confirmed. But. Flirt. Flirting? Flirt. [ CLEARS THROAT] Ah-hem. Excuse me. [ SCREAMS INTO A PILLOW]
|
|
megs80
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire
Origin: DuskIsNotAmused
XBL Gamertag: DuskIsNotAmused
Posts: 181 Likes: 496
inherit
1220
0
496
megs80
181
Aug 25, 2016 23:34:38 GMT
August 2016
megs80
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire
DuskIsNotAmused
DuskIsNotAmused
|
Post by megs80 on Feb 25, 2017 4:42:04 GMT
Hi everyone, been sick lately trying to catch up on the thread. I've noticed there has been a few account deletions in a relatively short period of time Both quite active on the forum. (Prince E and milanawalters) Without prying are they OK? Are you all OK? The tone of the thread feels... strained. (more so then when I was last here anyway )
|
|
GordianKnot
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins
Posts: 61 Likes: 129
inherit
3680
0
129
GordianKnot
61
February 2017
gordianknot
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins
|
Post by GordianKnot on Feb 25, 2017 4:43:17 GMT
The idea is that, no matter what BioWare does, non-straight people will never be happy. Some users on tumblr are the ones that seem to use the most varied terms for gender and sexuality. Pretty much, thanks for clarifying... not judging, mind you, I just think people should chill more and learn to value what they get, is all. I get your point, but telling people to "value what they get" (in reference to deep and meaningful same-sex romance options in Bioware games) is kind of arrogant and rude. It's like telling a bunch of skiers/snowboarders during the worst winter in decades to be happy with the one weekend where it actually snowed some, or someone who took a vacation to a beach resort and it rained the whole time except one day to be happy with that one day (weird analogies, I know, but hopefully it gets the point across). If the game/experience is largely disappointing, having one non-disappointing moment/day isn't going to make it less disappointing. Romance options don't really make or break the game for me -- sure, there are specific characters that I'd like to be able to romance, but if the game as a whole is interesting and immersive and has elements of a story I can get into, I'll probably enjoy it regardless. However, I'd like to be able to develop deep, meaningful friend relationships with squamates and characters that I can't/don't want to romance. That's kinda how the FemShep/Garrus romance felt to me in ME2/3 (even though it was technically a "romance"), and I'd like more of that. I could see a male Shepard developing a deep "brothers in arms," type connection with someone like Garrus, unfortunately the only way you experience that type of connection with another character in the original trilogy was to be in a romance with them.
|
|
inherit
3826
0
336
lurkinganon
203
Feb 24, 2017 11:34:12 GMT
February 2017
lurkinganon
|
Post by lurkinganon on Feb 25, 2017 4:43:43 GMT
To whomever suggested we play a VN if we want gay romance so bad, If you can find me a Mass Effect VN where I can romance male Turians, Krogan, Salarians and Angara as a guy..
By all means point me to it.
|
|
inherit
3826
0
336
lurkinganon
203
Feb 24, 2017 11:34:12 GMT
February 2017
lurkinganon
|
Post by lurkinganon on Feb 25, 2017 4:48:50 GMT
I mean... it's all new characters... so... Sorry. Still annoyed with a certain comic publisher and their retcons. D: Ahhh Iceman? Cuz I gotta say I think that was prettty stupid of Marvel. Anole was best boy.
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
Oct 14, 2024 19:14:13 GMT
31,573
Hanako Ikezawa
22,990
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 25, 2017 4:50:44 GMT
Hi everyone, been sick lately trying to catch up on the thread. I've noticed there has been a few account deletions in a relatively short period of time Both quite active on the forum. (Prince E and milanawalters) Without prying are they OK? Are you all OK? The tone of the thread feels... strained. (more so then when I was last here anyway ) Prince E actually came back.
|
|
Kimberly
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: kimj75
XBL Gamertag: Kimberlia
PSN: kimj75
Posts: 691 Likes: 1,751
inherit
216
0
1,751
Kimberly
691
August 2016
kimberly
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
kimj75
Kimberlia
kimj75
|
Post by Kimberly on Feb 25, 2017 4:51:55 GMT
Hi everyone, been sick lately trying to catch up on the thread. I've noticed there has been a few account deletions in a relatively short period of time Both quite active on the forum. (Prince E and milanawalters) Without prying are they OK? Are you all OK? The tone of the thread feels... strained. (more so then when I was last here anyway ) Prince E reactivated his account. Needed some time away.
|
|
inherit
3555
0
Apr 14, 2022 23:07:25 GMT
11,193
gaycaravaggio
Oy Gay
2,940
February 2017
gaycaravaggio
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
|
Post by gaycaravaggio on Feb 25, 2017 4:53:52 GMT
Hi everyone, been sick lately trying to catch up on the thread. I've noticed there has been a few account deletions in a relatively short period of time Both quite active on the forum. (Prince E and milanawalters) Without prying are they OK? Are you all OK? The tone of the thread feels... strained. (more so then when I was last here anyway ) Yeah, there's been a lot of tension. I hope they're doing alright.
|
|
megs80
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire
Origin: DuskIsNotAmused
XBL Gamertag: DuskIsNotAmused
Posts: 181 Likes: 496
inherit
1220
0
496
megs80
181
Aug 25, 2016 23:34:38 GMT
August 2016
megs80
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire
DuskIsNotAmused
DuskIsNotAmused
|
Post by megs80 on Feb 25, 2017 5:01:37 GMT
Hanako Ikezawa , KimberlyOh good , thank you for answering. I'm new to participating in fandoms not really sure what's normal yet . Got concerned when several of the regular faces disappeared.
|
|