lauratsoni
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stay strong, and queer!
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Post by lauratsoni on Jun 3, 2017 4:37:13 GMT
The problem isn't that the mandatory characters were straight, the problem is that there were any mandatory characters at all. Why should I have to put with Alistair's manbaby antics, Aveline's constantly butting into my life (or that mine couldn't progress unless I dealt with hers), Cassandra's bullying, or both Varric and Solas keeping vital information secret? The player should have had agency to deal with all Companions and Advisors as they see fit, regardless of orientation.
The notion that the only reason someone would kick or kill these characters is homophobia is really depressing at this point. It can't possibly be because Zevran tried to kill you, is an amoral and unrepentant murderer, and could try again unless you befriend him. It can't be because Anders deserted the Grey Wardens, mind raped and corrupted Justice with their merging, is an Abomination, and murdered hundreds of innocents in a terrorist attack that led to an even greater war. No, only homophobia  . "Well, that's why we need a perfect gay KISA in DA4 that cannot be opposed whatsoever" some might say? Because yes, let's have even less roleplaying options in a role playing game. A game with no avenues for players who want to play ruthlessly ambitious Magiters, amoral mercenaries, or radical revolutionaries. Because Maker forbid anyone recognize that this just a game, and not a reflection of their real life views.
I'm not saying those are the -only- reasons people killed off those characters (obviously they aren't. I'm not even saying there aren't valid reasons to kill certain characters.), but what I AM saying is that I specifically heard -this- particular reason MANY times and to hear people say they killed those characters because of their queerness is something I'm not interested in experiencing again in the next game. It's too personal and too upsetting. I wish that even straight people could try to understand how that feels. To see people take pleasure in killing even a fictional queer person because they think it's gross to get flirted with is really awful for real lgbt people to witness. If you can't sympathize with that, then there's nothing else I can say to you. if i could like this more than once, i would. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2017 4:39:33 GMT
I'm not saying those are the -only- reasons people killed off those characters (obviously they aren't. I'm not even saying there aren't valid reasons to kill certain characters.), but what I AM saying is that I specifically heard -this- particular reason MANY times and to hear people say they killed those characters because of their queerness is something I'm not interested in experiencing again in the next game. It's too personal and too upsetting. I wish that even straight people could try to understand how that feels. To see people take pleasure in killing even a fictional queer person because they think it's gross to get flirted with is really awful for real lgbt people to witness. If you can't sympathize with that, then there's nothing else I can say to you. if i could like this more than once, i would. My thoughts exactly. JadePrince  |
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Post by Dirk on Jun 3, 2017 4:59:16 GMT
I don't think the Bioware style of rpg can really afford to not have any mandatory characters. They tend to focus much more on story and characters and how they interact the than plot. The plot alone is too weak to be the only thing the player interacts with. That kind of player choice really only works well in sandbox rpgs that just have so much side stuff happening it can distract you from the actual plot. So, if there is already going to be mandatory characters, there is no reason for them to always be the straight characters. If nothing else, that approach just gets boring and formulaic. Yeah I find it difficult in DA or ME games to have zero mandatory characters. And in any case, because in the previous DA and ME games most mandatory characters are straight, it is fair to me that in the next games more mandatory characters should be lgbtq+ to balance the distribution out. Once the balance is established, then it is a fair game to go with no mandatory characters (if possible in DA and ME games at all) with various sexualities. |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 3, 2017 5:10:07 GMT
I don't think the Bioware style of rpg can really afford to not have any mandatory characters. They tend to focus much more on story and characters and how they interact the than plot. The plot alone is too weak to be the only thing the player interacts with. That kind of player choice really only works well in sandbox rpgs that just have so much side stuff happening it can distract you from the actual plot. So, if there is already going to be mandatory characters, there is no reason for them to always be the straight characters. If nothing else, that approach just gets boring and formulaic. And in any case, because in the previous DA and ME games most mandatory characters are straight, it is fair to me that in the next games more mandatory characters should be lgbtq+ to balance the distribution out. Once the balance is established, then it is a fair game to go with no mandatory characters (if possible in DA and ME games at all) with various sexualities. I did as well until ironically MEA. The game that had everyone be mandatory was a game that didn't require any of them due to SAM. |
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Post by Dirk on Jun 3, 2017 5:14:38 GMT
I'm not concerned that Kennedy is suddenly going to take over the game. I am concerned about the attitude and thought processes of a development studio that markets its games on a basis of inclusivity, and then sees no issue with hiring (in ANY capacity), a man who thinks it's possible to do "too much" for LGBT gamers, and that straight gamers need subsequent appeasement. When BioWare hired outspoken homophobe Orson Scott Card to write side comics for DA, the issue was not how he might change the lore, it was that a self-proclaimed "LGBT-friendly" company was actively giving money to an outspoken homophobe.An issue they have still never made a statement about, by the way. Oh damn now I remember this. 2010 was a dark time for Bioware. It's a year when Bioware came up with the stupidest reason why Shepard could not be gay in ME2. |
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Jun 3, 2017 5:15:14 GMT
I think the opportunity to kill off companions is usually handled pretty well in the Dragon Age series so far.
Leliana, Wynne, Sigrun, Fenris, Anders, Merrill, Iron Bull, Alistair, and I think a couple others aren't killed off for no reason or without any interesting drama involved. They turn on you turn on them because of the decisions the PC makes and they react to them accordingly. Hell, with the exception of Anders and Alistair all those other characters I mentioned attack you first and for good reason that fits for their character.
That said, I get why people are protective of LGBT characters and don't want to give homophobes and bigots an opportunity to live out their deranged murder fantasies, but the fact of the matter is Bioware has little control over the motivations that players give their PC's and trying to whitewash the game to the extent that PCs never have the opportunity to do anything morally debatable or potentially offensive in the real world robs all of us non-arseholes the opportunity to play various dynamic characters that don't share their real life views. Regardless, my main point is that as a bisexual man am fine with killing Iron Bull because to me that made sense for the character they were making and it wasn't an arbitrary and mean-spirited chance to murder a queer for the lolz.
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Post by Dirk on Jun 3, 2017 5:17:14 GMT
Yeah I find it difficult in DA or ME games to have zero mandatory characters. And in any case, because in the previous DA and ME games most mandatory characters are straight, it is fair to me that in the next games more mandatory characters should be lgbtq+ to balance the distribution out. Once the balance is established, then it is a fair game to go with no mandatory characters (if possible in DA and ME games at all) with various sexualities. I did as well until ironically MEA. The game that had everyone be mandatory was a game that didn't require any of them due to SAM. You still have to go along with Liam and Cora during Habitat 7 mission though so they are still mandatory. I am considering the case of Fallout New Vegas where no one in the game (except for PC of course) is mandatory, meaning that I could finish the game without interacting with them. I don't think Bioware could pull something like that in DA or ME games. |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 3, 2017 5:22:40 GMT
I did as well until ironically MEA. The game that had everyone be mandatory was a game that didn't require any of them due to SAM. You still have to go along with Liam and Cora during Habitat 7 mission though so they are still mandatory. I am considering the case of Fallout New Vegas where no one in the game (except for PC of course) is mandatory, and I don't think Bioware could pull something like that in DA or ME games. You didn't have to though. They add nothing to the mission that requires them having to be there. Ryder could be alone on Habitat 7 and it would work just as well, and arguably maybe even better. I think they could, if they had enough resources for it. That's probably one of the main reasons why they don't. As it is now they either give characters a lot of development and have nothing left over to account for some choices, or they give enough resources to account for those choices and have shallower characters as a result. |
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Post by Dirk on Jun 3, 2017 5:31:56 GMT
You still have to go along with Liam and Cora during Habitat 7 mission though so they are still mandatory. I am considering the case of Fallout New Vegas where no one in the game (except for PC of course) is mandatory, and I don't think Bioware could pull something like that in DA or ME games. You didn't have to though. They add nothing to the mission that requires them having to be there. Ryder could be alone on Habitat 7 and it would work just as well, and arguably maybe even better. I think they could, if they had enough resources for it. That's probably one of the main reasons why they don't. As it is now they either give characters a lot of development and have nothing left over to account for some choices, or they give enough resources to account for those choices and have shallower characters as a result. And as I said I didn't say it is impossible to have no mandatory characters. I said it is difficult, and one of the reason for this is as you suggested. Another reason is writing has to be way better if no characters are to mandatory, and so far, Bioware is not quite up to par for that to me. |
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Post by Ryzaki on Jun 3, 2017 5:38:36 GMT
I despise BW's mandatory characters. Because they can't be bothered to make it consistent for the PC and the NPC so you end up with someone following the PC like a dog when they should be trying to shank them at the first opportunity.
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Post by Aliaspig on Jun 3, 2017 5:59:47 GMT
You still have to go along with Liam and Cora during Habitat 7 mission though so they are still mandatory. I am considering the case of Fallout New Vegas where no one in the game (except for PC of course) is mandatory, and I don't think Bioware could pull something like that in DA or ME games. You didn't have to though. They add nothing to the mission that requires them having to be there. Ryder could be alone on Habitat 7 and it would work just as well, and arguably maybe even better. I think they could, if they had enough resources for it. That's probably one of the main reasons why they don't. As it is now they either give characters a lot of development and have nothing left over to account for some choices, or they give enough resources to account for those choices and have shallower characters as a result. Those are two different approaches to making an rpg. It's also the main difference between, say, Bethesda and Bioware rpgs. Bethesda tends to make open world rpgs where the player is generally spoiled for choice as to where to go, what to do, and who to talk to. Which tends to make the characters shallow and quests much more isolated to the main story. For example, for all of my 200 hours in Skyrim, I would be hard pressed to name more than 3 characters in that game. Whereas Bioware tends to tell a much tighter story with the characters they have and know will be present for at least a while. I don't prefer one style over the other, I just wouldn't want either to try to emulate the other and leave behind what makes them both great imo. |
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 3, 2017 6:11:01 GMT
I think the opportunity to kill off companions is usually handled pretty well in the Dragon Age series so far. Leliana, Wynne, Sigrun, Fenris, Anders, Merrill, Iron Bull, Alistair, and I think a couple others aren't killed off for no reason or without any interesting drama involved. They turn on you turn on them because of the decisions the PC makes and they react to them accordingly. Hell, with the exception of Anders and Alistair all those other characters I mentioned attack you first and for good reason that fits for their character. That said, I get why people are protective of LGBT characters and don't want to give homophobes and bigots an opportunity to live out their deranged murder fantasies, but the fact of the matter is Bioware has little control over the motivations that players give their PC's and trying to whitewash the game to the extent that PCs never have the opportunity to do anything morally debatable or potentially offensive in the real world robs all of us non-arseholes the opportunity to play various dynamic characters that don't share their real life views. Regardless, my main point is that as a bisexual man am fine with killing Iron Bull because to me that made sense for the character they were making and it wasn't an arbitrary and mean-spirited chance to murder a queer for the lolz. I'm rather of the opinion that BioWare facilitates the sociopathy of individuals inclined to such, by giving them paltry rationalisations for commiting random murder and even acts of genocide. :ninja: |
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Jun 3, 2017 6:18:58 GMT
I think the opportunity to kill off companions is usually handled pretty well in the Dragon Age series so far. Leliana, Wynne, Sigrun, Fenris, Anders, Merrill, Iron Bull, Alistair, and I think a couple others aren't killed off for no reason or without any interesting drama involved. They turn on you turn on them because of the decisions the PC makes and they react to them accordingly. Hell, with the exception of Anders and Alistair all those other characters I mentioned attack you first and for good reason that fits for their character. That said, I get why people are protective of LGBT characters and don't want to give homophobes and bigots an opportunity to live out their deranged murder fantasies, but the fact of the matter is Bioware has little control over the motivations that players give their PC's and trying to whitewash the game to the extent that PCs never have the opportunity to do anything morally debatable or potentially offensive in the real world robs all of us non-arseholes the opportunity to play various dynamic characters that don't share their real life views. Regardless, my main point is that as a bisexual man am fine with killing Iron Bull because to me that made sense for the character they were making and it wasn't an arbitrary and mean-spirited chance to murder a queer for the lolz. I'm rather of the opinion that BioWare facilitates the sociopathy of individuals inclined to such, by giving them paltry rationalisations for commiting random murder and even acts of genocide. :ninja: Better they do it in a virtual world than try in the real world. Their going to be sociopaths video games or no video games. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2017 6:19:27 GMT
This, exactly. Those starting companions like Cass/Solas/Varric, Morrigan/Alistair, and even Aveline, (I'm less familiar with ME,, but it sounds like the same applies there?) are all straight or, in the case of non-LIs, implied to be straight. The problem isn't that the mandatory characters were straight, the problem is that there were any mandatory characters at all. Why should I have to put with Alistair's manbaby antics, Aveline's constantly butting into my life (or that mine couldn't progress unless I dealt with hers), Cassandra's bullying, or both Varric and Solas keeping vital information secret? The player should have had agency to deal with all Companions and Advisors as they see fit, regardless of orientation. The notion that the only reason someone would kick or kill these characters is homophobia is really depressing at this point. It can't possibly be because Zevran tried to kill you, is an amoral and unrepentant murderer, and could try again unless you befriend him. It can't be because Anders deserted the Grey Wardens, mind raped and corrupted Justice with their merging, is an Abomination, and murdered hundreds of innocents in a terrorist attack that led to an even greater war. No, only homophobia . "Well, that's why we need a perfect gay KISA in DA4 that cannot be opposed whatsoever" some might say? Because yes, let's have even less roleplaying options in a role playing game. A game with no avenues for players who want to play ruthlessly ambitious Magiters, amoral mercenaries, or radical revolutionaries. Because Maker forbid anyone recognize that this just a game, and not a reflection of their real life views.
Dude, why are you still arguing this? No one disagrees with you that ideally, the player should get to make all these decisions. We think it would be too much to expect from a developer that put out Andromeda, all the while thinking, "Yes, I'm happy with the buggy, badly written, face tiring, uncanny valley specifics." The BioWare that put out Baldur's Gate is not the same BioWare that put out MEA. But your general point is acceded to. I think everyone here would welcome that level of player choice. Whenever someone says they'd like an un-killable LGBT character (like their un-killable straight counterparts,) and you respond with, "That's not the real issue. The real issue is mandatory characters," that does feel like derailment, because players welcoming more choice is already a given. So if a developer is going to have mandatory characters anyway (yes they shouldn’t, BAD developers!) then why can’t at least one of them be LGBT? That’s all we’re saying. As for the Zevran thing, I have specifically heard people say IRL that they killed the guy because he hit on them. I'm sure that's what JadePrince is referring to as well. You are presenting alternate reasons it might have happened, and yes those reasons are valid, but those alternatives don't matter when someone flat-out tells you why he did it. Again, no one is accusing ALL STRAIGHT PLAYERS of homophobia. I'm sure most straight players don't give a damn if a gay character hits on them. But JadePrince is specifically talking about a "homophobic jerk". Those do exist, whether you want to acknowledge it or not. Why the spin? |
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Post by Dirk on Jun 3, 2017 7:33:21 GMT
Yeah as long as Bioware still have and will be having with mandatory and unkillable characters, those should be more of lgbtq spectrum. I think this is what people are arguing for. I don't know why there is so much fuss about this, as if adding lgbtq mandatory characters is going to ruin Bioware games more than straight mandatory characters do. Bioware could start with making the first squad mates/party members bi. That's probably the simplest way. Bonus if they are also romanceable. Back to somewhat related to ME:A romance, there is this reply from Mike Gamble. So does this either mean that #MakeJaalbi is going to happen or Mike is doing queer baiting yet again? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2017 7:39:29 GMT
 I have nothing relevant to say, but that picture-it means something! I just need to crack the code. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2017 7:42:36 GMT
I'm not concerned that Kennedy is suddenly going to take over the game. I am concerned about the attitude and thought processes of a development studio that markets its games on a basis of inclusivity, and then sees no issue with hiring (in ANY capacity), a man who thinks it's possible to do "too much" for LGBT gamers, and that straight gamers need subsequent appeasement. When BioWare hired outspoken homophobe Orson Scott Card to write side comics for DA, the issue was not how he might change the lore, it was that a self-proclaimed "LGBT-friendly" company was actively giving money to an outspoken homophobe. An issue they have still never made a statement about, by the way. Is there anything to indicate Kennedy is on par Orson Scott Card? Also, that's super shitty and BioWare should definitely have never hired him in any capacity and a statement is indeed called for in this situation.    |
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Post by Aliaspig on Jun 3, 2017 7:47:57 GMT
I don't think I've ever wanted something from a video game as much I want Jaal to be bi.
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Post by Dirk on Jun 3, 2017 7:53:17 GMT
I have nothing relevant to say, but that picture-it means something! I just need to crack the code.  I don't think I've ever wanted something from a video game as much I want Jaal to be bi.  same here! |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2017 7:57:47 GMT
I have nothing relevant to say, but that picture-it means something! I just need to crack the code. I don't think I've ever wanted something from a video game as much I want Jaal to be bi. same here! I want Jaal to come on out of that closet already. He's super bi already. He's just being restrained by dude bro bull shit. |
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Post by Dirk on Jun 3, 2017 8:17:25 GMT
same here! I want Jaal to come on out of that closet already. He's super bi already. He's just being restrained by dude bro bull shit.  |
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Post by Aliaspig on Jun 3, 2017 8:23:08 GMT
Yes. Jaal come out of that closet already. I support you, and the view out here is much nicer.
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Post by gaycaravaggio on Jun 3, 2017 8:23:23 GMT
This, exactly. Those starting companions like Cass/Solas/Varric, Morrigan/Alistair, and even Aveline, (I'm less familiar with ME,, but it sounds like the same applies there?) are all straight or, in the case of non-LIs, implied to be straight. They are with you from the start of the game and thus get more content in general by virtue of their screentime. I know that, at least for DAI, those three (one of each class) are mandatory so that you won't end up at the final battle without anyone to fight with. I don't see DA getting rid of that strategy of having three guaranteed companions who won't leave before the final battle, so why the heck can't we get at least one of those starting, mandatory companions as an LGBT character? If they are a romance option too, all the better.
The problem isn't that the mandatory characters were straight, the problem is that there were any mandatory characters at all. Why should I have to put with Alistair's manbaby antics, Aveline's constantly butting into my life (or that mine couldn't progress unless I dealt with hers), Cassandra's bullying, or both Varric and Solas keeping vital information secret? The player should have had agency to deal with all Companions and Advisors as they see fit, regardless of orientation.
The notion that the only reason someone would kick or kill these characters is homophobia is really depressing at this point. It can't possibly be because Zevran tried to kill you, is an amoral and unrepentant murderer, and could try again unless you befriend him. It can't be because Anders deserted the Grey Wardens, mind raped and corrupted Justice with their merging, is an Abomination, and murdered hundreds of innocents in a terrorist attack that led to an even greater war. No, only homophobia . "Well, that's why we need a perfect gay KISA in DA4 that cannot be opposed whatsoever" some might say? Because yes, let's have even less roleplaying options in a role playing game. A game with no avenues for players who want to play ruthlessly ambitious Magiters, amoral mercenaries, or radical revolutionaries. Because Maker forbid anyone recognize that this just a game, and not a reflection of their real life views.
Anyways, I want more important, plot relevant LGBT companions/squadmates that can't be killed off or easily shoved aside. It's not an issue of "player choice" but of gay shit being easily gotten rid of in comparison to hetero shit.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2017 8:27:04 GMT
Anyways, I want more important, plot relevant LGBT companions/squadmates that can't be killed off or easily shoved aside. It's not an issue of "player choice" but of gay shit being easily gotten rid of in comparison to hetero shit. Can you imagine a game where the gay characters are mandatory and unkillable (also plentiful) but there's only 2 straight characters and they are optional and can die. I mean would they still be happy with the specifics? |
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Post by gaycaravaggio on Jun 3, 2017 8:29:01 GMT
Anyways, I want more important, plot relevant LGBT companions/squadmates that can't be killed off or easily shoved aside. It's not an issue of "player choice" but of gay shit being easily gotten rid of in comparison to hetero shit. Can you imagine a game where the gay characters are mandatory and unkillable (also plentiful) but there's only 2 straight characters and they are optional and can die. I mean would they still be happy with the specifics? Only then will the they finally understand what it's like to be A Gay™ in fandom.  |
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. "Well, that's why we need a perfect gay KISA in DA4 that cannot be opposed whatsoever" some might say? Because yes, let's have even less roleplaying options in a role playing game. A game with no avenues for players who want to play ruthlessly ambitious Magiters, amoral mercenaries, or radical revolutionaries. Because Maker forbid anyone recognize that this just a game, and not a reflection of their real life views. 
