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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Feb 6, 2017 18:25:54 GMT
I've always quite enjoyed the missable line when TIM dies in ME3: "There, Earth... I wish you could see it like I do, Shepard. It's so... perfect." It is kind of undecipherable at first because it's so vague and strangely said not to mention out of context. But it makes sense for two reasons. 1) That TIM is about to draw his last breath and it's known that dying people talk in "symbolic language" because they're becoming unconscious and they subconscious ideas spring forth. 2) It fits the mentality and longtime goal of Cerberus and TIM's ideals. He wants the best for humanity. He wants to evolve us, and looking at Earth he's reminded a final time what he wanted before he fails. If you ask Miranda Lawson in ME2 and several other occassions she mentions the slogan of sorts for Cerberus, that their goal is "The Advancement and Preservation of the Human Race". Now this is where it gets interesting. In the comic Mass Effect Evolution drafted by Mac Walters and penned by John Jackson Miller from Darkhorse, we're told an origin story of TIM and Cerberus, his friend Paul Grayson and desireable female Eva Coré, in certain encounters during the First Contact War with strange glowing artifacts that both TIM and Grayson feel drawn to, that ultimately leads to Paul Grayson's demise and TIM getting those eye-implants. The comic ends on a time-skip that shows us TIM starting up his office at Cronos Station as he looks out his window and sets out to preserve and advance humanity, which is an idea he had become obsessed with ever since encountering those artifacts. They reminded him of the massive uplift when humanity found the Mass Relays and ponders if there is more out there that can lead humanity to their next step. Enter Cerberus and we pretty much know the rest of this story. However there is one detail that always bothered me. When inviting James to the cabin in ME3 he mentions his mission that failed on Horizon again and explains that it went wrong when a "Cerberus spy working with the collectors" gave away their location to the collectors. Apparently if that's true Cerberus have always had at least some moles playing into the Reapers hands. It later goes completely off the rails as TIM is getting obviously indoctrinated throughout ME3 by sticking around Reaper technology for too long. The catch however is, this isn't the first time he's been around Reaper tech. The artifacts that gave him those strange eyes were very possibly Reaper tech as well, only they were discovered way back when, and it was conspicuously after that encounter that he got hell-bent on the idea that started Cerberus as an organization. This is when it strikes me, that a certain development in ME2 reveals something about Cerberus that has probably been there the entire time without anyone realizing it... The Advancement And Preservation of Humanity Remember, the Catalyst uses these words specifically: "Preserve in the form of a Reaper" and his as well as Saren's (indoctrinated mind you) goals are to advance the harvested species by ascending them to synthetics aka Reapers, and the Reaper ideal is to reach Synthesis, which advances all life into a new form of life.
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Post by midnightwolf on Feb 6, 2017 23:30:22 GMT
Sooo....you think that TIM was involved in making this creature?
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Feb 7, 2017 0:06:22 GMT
Sooo....you think that TIM was involved in making this creature? I think he was pretty much already, perhaps unknowingly luring Shepard into a suicide mission and already being slightly influenced by the Reapers because his motivations are the same as the Reapers/Collectors
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Post by midnightwolf on Feb 7, 2017 0:19:55 GMT
Sooo....you think that TIM was involved in making this creature? I think he was pretty much already, perhaps unknowingly luring Shepard into a suicide mission and already being slightly influenced by the Reapers because his motivations are the same as the Reapers/Collectors I admit, what you wrote above does make for a compelling argument, and does make sense. Especially if you look at his reaction when you choose to blow the base up. Makes me wonder just how long Harbinger had been subtly influencing him, Sneaky Devil.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Feb 7, 2017 0:41:20 GMT
I don't think it was ever a plan. He came into contact with a Reaper artifact that changed him during the First Contact war and that connected him to the Reapers which would then slowly influence him ever since then I guess.
I used to think it was stupid to make Cerberus indoctrinated, but I guess I've gotten used to that idea lol. I just like it because I see how it fits now. When I thought about the whole "Advancement and Preservation" phrase it suddenly clicked for me. I think I used to dislike Cerberus being indoctrinated in ME3 because I felt it was a retcon but when you consider the usage of words it could actually be that they planned for this. The specific phrase "Preservation" and "Advancement" is too on-point to be a coincidence IMO.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Feb 8, 2017 0:01:59 GMT
How is this uncomfortable? My first thought on seeing TIM was "Oh shit he has husk eyes. Something is up here." Then later he is able to happen across a "disabled" Collector ship.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Feb 8, 2017 0:05:43 GMT
I figured it was some kind of fashion statement and perhaps showing how TIM was using high-tech stuff to be ahead of the curve. But unfortunately, Cerberus were just evil hipsters the entire time. "Pretty cool, if you ask me."
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Feb 8, 2017 0:09:31 GMT
I figured it was some kind of fashion statement and perhaps showing how TIM was using high-tech stuff to be ahead of the curve. But unfortunately, Cerberus were just evil hipsters the entire time. "Pretty cool, if you ask me." And the bringing Shepard back to life being remarkably similar to how Grunt was created by someone who openly admitted to dealing with the Collectors?
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Feb 8, 2017 0:13:27 GMT
I think it's because the concept of "working with the collectors" seemed fucking weird to me. Same as with working with the Reapers. By the time you learn that about Saren you already get that he's totally fucked in the head.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Feb 8, 2017 0:28:19 GMT
I think it's because the concept of "working with the collectors" seemed fucking weird to me. Same as with working with the Reapers. By the time you learn that about Saren you already get that he's totally fucked in the head. Doesn't seem weird to me. Considering this is a group that is wanted by Alliance, Asari, Quarian, Turian, Salarian, and other races. And yet has an intelligence and research department on par with said mentioned races. At least with the Shadow Broker people are aware of his existence but don't know who he is. And all races benefit from dealing with him. As they are able to use his services to gain information they might not have been able to. Services that Cerberus doesn't supply. Which is why when people say the Cerberus made some sort of left turn into evil in ME 3 makes me wonder if they were paying attention in ME 2.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Feb 8, 2017 1:23:46 GMT
It's more that Collectors are incapable of speaking without Harbinger's boomy voice and when you say "working with them" I imagine TIM talking over the phone with the Collector General or something.
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Post by Treacherous J Slither on Feb 8, 2017 4:59:28 GMT
The Illusive Man is the reason why the Collectors were thwarted.
What kind of indoctrination works against the ones doing the indoctrinating? Is that even a word? Lol
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Post by Phantom on Feb 8, 2017 5:13:26 GMT
The Illusive Man is the reason why the Collectors were thwarted. What kind of indoctrination works against the ones doing the indoctrinating? Is that even a word? Lol sometimes with indoctrination, people see things that are not really there. As much as I like Bioware, sometimes they are not the best of writers. And there is no such thing as a perfect writer and there will always be loose ends. for example with me, I can produce moderately decent fanfic. and sometimes, people will see patterns that are not there.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Feb 8, 2017 16:59:10 GMT
The Illusive Man is the reason why the Collectors were thwarted. What kind of indoctrination works against the ones doing the indoctrinating? Is that even a word? Lol And yet everything was set up for Shepard to fail. TIM didn't send an army of Cerberus Agents to help him. He sent a single ship with a dozen soldiers against an entire base of unknown size against a technologically superior enemy. Within any realm of logic even within the logic of the ME universe Shepard should have failed.
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Post by Darth Dennis on Feb 8, 2017 18:13:23 GMT
The Illusive Man is the reason why the Collectors were thwarted. What kind of indoctrination works against the ones doing the indoctrinating? Is that even a word? Lol And yet everything was set up for Shepard to fail. TIM didn't send an army of Cerberus Agents to help him. He sent a single ship with a dozen soldiers against an entire base of unknown size against a technologically superior enemy. Within any realm of logic even within the logic of the ME universe Shepard should have failed. Logic? In Mass Effect?
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Feb 8, 2017 19:29:12 GMT
And yet everything was set up for Shepard to fail. TIM didn't send an army of Cerberus Agents to help him. He sent a single ship with a dozen soldiers against an entire base of unknown size against a technologically superior enemy. Within any realm of logic even within the logic of the ME universe Shepard should have failed. Logic? In Mass Effect? Yes logic in Mass Effect. Each universe created be it game, movie or book follows it's own internal logic. The problem with ME 1 and 2 which is actually less of a problem in 3 surprisingly. Is how at the end it completely defies it's own internal logic to allow the ending to take place.
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 9, 2017 1:06:47 GMT
And yet everything was set up for Shepard to fail. TIM didn't send an army of Cerberus Agents to help him. He sent a single ship with a dozen soldiers against an entire base of unknown size against a technologically superior enemy. Within any realm of logic even within the logic of the ME universe Shepard should have failed. Logic? In Mass Effect? They do have a certain internal logic. Anyway, Shepard + two squadmates habitually is able to take down entire armies. It shouldn't be a surprise that the entire squad could take down the Collectors. If you accept the initial capabilities of Shepard + squad, the rest follows fairly easily. Or, at least it doesn't bother me much.
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Post by Phantom on Feb 9, 2017 2:33:00 GMT
They do have a certain internal logic. Anyway, Shepard + two squadmates habitually is able to take down entire armies. It shouldn't be a surprise that the entire squad could take down the Collectors. If you accept the initial capabilities of Shepard + squad, the rest follows fairly easily. Or, at least it doesn't bother me much. Don't forget Shepard and Company has plot armor and this plot armor give the player a power fantasy in which Mass Effect is truly like many video games, it gives him an immunity to Indoctrination. Also it is common place that Bioware PCs to have an special element. Regardless if it is Revan, Spirit Monk, Shepard, Warden, ToR PCs and other Bioware PCs, all of them have in common is they are a power fantasy.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Feb 9, 2017 15:16:32 GMT
They do have a certain internal logic. Anyway, Shepard + two squadmates habitually is able to take down entire armies. It shouldn't be a surprise that the entire squad could take down the Collectors. If you accept the initial capabilities of Shepard + squad, the rest follows fairly easily. Or, at least it doesn't bother me much. And even that doesn't validate the actions of ME 2's ending.
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