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Post by SKAR on Feb 11, 2017 9:14:55 GMT
Bioware producer Fabrice Condominas has stated that they've learned from Inquisition's mistakes and have made more meaningful side quests. It appears the Witcher 3 was used as inspiration among other games. Thoughts?
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Post by Spooch on Feb 11, 2017 9:22:19 GMT
That is fantastic. Nothing ruins an RPG faster than having boring quests. I haven't actually gotten around to playing The Witcher 3 yet, but I hear that the side quests are fantastic.
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Post by ryerye17 on Feb 11, 2017 9:45:21 GMT
Yes, please. No more silly shards or elven artifacts.
From a DA: Inquisition point of view, they can take a good look at Crestwood where it feels like there is a narrative to the region that is more-or-less solid, exciting, and straightforward, versus the rather disjointed narratives of the other regions.
What Witcher 3 had going for it were fully animated cutscenes. I mean, yes, it's basically pick up contract-kill monster; but there always seemed to be variety or spice in each contract that prevented it from getting monotonous.
TLDR: Hope they learned and I'm looking forward to great sidequests.
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Post by Zemgus on Feb 11, 2017 9:58:06 GMT
Every single Bioware RPG has some side content that I've found to be boring and a waste of time. Worst has been ME2's planet scanning and ME1's empty planets. Inquisition's mistakes were nothing compared to that. I had no problem collecting shards or whatever it is people complain about.
If we get better sidequests then good, sometimes DAI's fetch quests were indeed boring (mind you ME also had plenty of those as did DAO&DA2) and didn't provide much roleplaying options. Just "Find my pants" and "Okay here's your pants" certainly wasn't very good side content.
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Post by ryerye17 on Feb 11, 2017 10:00:46 GMT
Every single Bioware RPG has has some side content that I've found to be boring and a waste of time. Worst has been ME2's planet scanning and ME1's empty planets. Inquisition's mistakes were nothing compared to that. I had no problem collecting shards or whatever it is people complain about. If we get better sidequests then good, sometimes DAI's fetch quests were indeed boring (mind you ME also had plenty of those as did DAO&DA2) and didn't provide much roleplaying options. Just "Find my pants" and "Okay here's your pants" certainly wasn't very good side content. The worst thing about Inquisition's side quests was they were all codex based. So if you're like, oh hey an exclamation mark. It's a notebook. Don't care won't read it. Oh look, my goal is over there. Arrives there, opens a chest. Cool! Mission complete, though I have absolutely no idea what I just did. At the very least in the earlier games, people will tell you -- oh hey I'm Dagna and I want to be an arcanist, or oh hey my son is in the Deep Roads, find him.
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Post by Xerxes52 on Feb 11, 2017 10:06:19 GMT
Well, having finally played and completed the Witcher 3 a couple weeks ago, I have to say it's a good game to be inspired by. The side quests were quite well done and the characters were awesome.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2017 10:12:54 GMT
The thing TW3 did good in my opinion was that they kept a consistent quality between primary and secondary quests to the point that most of the times you couldn't tell you were doing a secondary quests. Take for example Triss and Yennefer personal quests. They were secondary quests but were meaningful in the overall universe to the point to changing your relations with people around you and were objectively first quality. The Bloody Baron arc past a point where you obtained the infos you needed for the primary plot, became a secondary quest.
When BW said they looked at TW3 for inspiration I interpret this in the way that side quest should not drop in the overall quality of how they are implemented. In ME3 and DA:I you could totally see and feel the quality gap between main and secondary quests to the point that most secondary quests became fetch quests.
I obviously want BW to find its own way to reach this type of quality because what worked in TW3 doesn't necessarily work for ME or DA but the fact that they willingly put their own work into a proper constructive criticism in relation to what the competition is doing, is a very positive sign and one that spells good for BW growing as a developer and maturing with its games. I feel positive ME:A will be a quality and entertaining experience. I really want BW to score a good game after so much (justified and unjustified) criticism. We shall see.
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Post by lastpawn on Feb 11, 2017 10:40:17 GMT
1. Side quests that serve to develop or elaborate on the main narrative. 2. Side quests make sense in the setting. 3. Interesting, memorable characters met during these side quests. 4. Game ending acknowledges more important choices made during side quests. 5. Don't waste my goddamn time.
That about sums it up.
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Post by palinopsia on Feb 11, 2017 10:51:31 GMT
The thing TW3 did good in my opinion was that they kept a consistent quality between primary and secondary quests to the point that most of the times you couldn't tell you were doing a secondary quests. Take for example Triss and Yennefer personal quests. They were secondary quests but were meaningful in the overall universe to the point to changing your relations with people around you and were objectively first quality. The Bloody Baron arc past a point where you obtained the infos you needed for the primary plot, became a secondary quest. When BW said they looked at TW3 for inspiration I interpret this in the way that side quest should not drop in the overall quality of how they are implemented. In ME3 and DA:I you could totally see and feel the quality gap between main and secondary quests to the point that most secondary quests became fetch quests. I obviously want BW to find its own way to reach this type of quality because what worked in TW3 doesn't necessarily work for ME or DA but the fact that they willingly put their own work into a proper constructive criticism in relation to what the competition is doing, is a very positive sign and one that spells good for BW growing as a developer and maturing with its games. I feel positive ME:A will be a quality and entertaining experience. I really want BW to score a good game after so much (justified and unjustified) criticism. We shall see. I was going to write a post, but you said it better. I completely agree. However, although I hope and desperately want ME:A to be a great game (in this aspect at least) I'm not expecting it to be. It's great that they're acknowledging their mistakes and taking inspiration from games like TW3, but I'll believe it when I see it. I'm a huge skeptic though, so this isn't me hating on Bioware, it's just in my nature. I love Bioware and their games. And this may just be pessimism on my part, but I'd rather be pleasantly surprised than disappointed and angry. However I also don't think they'd be saying this if they didn't truly believe it, they wouldn't risk the backlash they'd get if people were disappointed. Because comparing their game to TW3 (remember I'm still only talking about in terms of meaningful side-quests) is setting pretty high standards, because TW3 was an exceptional game in that aspect. Having both quality and quantity is difficult to achieve, and takes a lot of time and effort, and resources - and it looks like ME:A is already a very big game (so big in fact they had to cut a squadmate). They'd have to be confident that they would meet those standards to come out and say this, so that's giving me hope. We shall see, indeed.
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Post by stysiaq on Feb 11, 2017 11:23:41 GMT
Bioware producer Fabrice Condominas has stated that they've learned from Inquisition's mistakes and have made more meaningful side quests. It appears the Witcher 3 was used as inspiration among other games. Thoughts? let's hope they will walk the talk. What I'm concerned about is that they may mean well, but not necessarily have the writing/designing talent to pull it off. I can't remember many sidequests in ME franchise that I was truly satisfied with that weren't the main course of specific DLC like Overlord or BDTS.
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Post by stysiaq on Feb 11, 2017 11:26:30 GMT
Also, I think that MEA team has a really good template for meaningful side-quests... just have them expand and establish the Andromeda lore, make us feel like explorers. That would be meaningful to me.
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Post by asherax on Feb 11, 2017 11:55:43 GMT
Every single Bioware RPG has has some side content that I've found to be boring and a waste of time. Worst has been ME2's planet scanning and ME1's empty planets. Inquisition's mistakes were nothing compared to that. I had no problem collecting shards or whatever it is people complain about. If we get better sidequests then good, sometimes DAI's fetch quests were indeed boring (mind you ME also had plenty of those as did DAO&DA2) and didn't provide much roleplaying options. Just "Find my pants" and "Okay here's your pants" certainly wasn't very good side content. Me1's planets might have been empty, but I do think that the sidequests that were there were done "right". They weren't necessary in any way, had a variety of quality in rewards, and were basically there to tell a little background story of the planet and side/historic characters. Sure, I would've loved if there had been more of them, but I figure that resources to make them were limited. They already obviously reused the same assets everywhere, which did already get repetitive, seeing the same type of outpost over and over. Even more locations and sidequests would've required more designs of buildings, which in turn would've required more funds. And we're talking about the first Mass Effect game here, when they were kept on a much tighter budget. The Citadel side quests were pretty good in quantity and giving more background, and the Citadel offered a lot of variety in areas. The quests themselves just required a bit too much running back and forth. Save
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Post by isaidlunch on Feb 11, 2017 12:15:55 GMT
I'm happy with that, as long as they don't also mean TW3's lame open-world content like smuggler caches and bandit camps.
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Post by MarmiteToast on Feb 11, 2017 13:32:15 GMT
This pleases me, Witcher 3 is probably my favourite game of all time. The side quests were amazing and really helped flesh out the world. It's funny, I think the lore in Dragon Age is more interesting than The Witcher, but because the side quests were lame I didn't really enjoy the game as well as I could have done. I've always thought the Mass Effect series (Apart from the original Mass Effect) had decent side quests so I am looking forward to that.
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Post by Sanunes on Feb 11, 2017 13:48:53 GMT
<Takes a drink>
I get that people liked The Witcher, but I am getting a little tired of the non-stop comparisons for me personally I found The Witcher 3 to be forgettable for I played the game for 10 hours and my life caused me to put the game down for a couple of weeks and I never got back into the game even when trying a new save. So it might have scratched the need for some people, but honestly if Mass Effect: Andromeda is focused too much like The Witcher it will be another Dragon Age: Inquisition where they focused too much on another game from another studio and ruined the game.
I have just finished my playthrough of the Mass Effect trilogy and frankly I found I felt the exact same way about the side quests in Mass Effect 1 as I did with Dragon Age: Inquisition, I could play the entire game and not do one and not feel like I missed anything in the game. I did find two benefits that helped them in the favor of Mass Effect 1, first was the quantity for there were a lot less in Mass Effect 1 then in Inquisition and the second is a guess of it being the first game in a series versus the third with having a lot of secondary media content so nothing was really new.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Feb 11, 2017 14:31:55 GMT
If they could turn thoughts into game content sure. But I highly doubt the general side-content will feel as thoroughly designed as it did in Witcher 3.
And for the record, while TW3 had a lot of "scan, walk, fight, scan, talk" it also had unique quests like one on Skellige where you suddenly get knocked out by guards and sent to prison giving you a handful of escape-options or one where there's a cave with visions of the future and one where you take a rite of passage speedrun across a mountain and slide all the way down one of the sides.
It had plenty of creativity. It only feels padded if you start exhausting the content instead of picking and choosing. Picking and choosing in DA:I was worthless because individual quests had no meat for the most part. All of it revolved around combat and having some meandering conversation you didn't pay attention to. I liked some of it but the average content was really barebones.
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Post by projectpatdc on Feb 11, 2017 17:42:02 GMT
<Takes a drink> I get that people liked The Witcher, but I am getting a little tired of the non-stop comparisons for me personally I found The Witcher 3 to be forgettable for I played the game for 10 hours and my life caused me to put the game down for a couple of weeks and I never got back into the game even when trying a new save. So it might have scratched the need for some people, but honestly if Mass Effect: Andromeda is focused too much like The Witcher it will be another Dragon Age: Inquisition where they focused too much on another game from another studio and ruined the game. I have just finished my playthrough of the Mass Effect trilogy and frankly I found I felt the exact same way about the side quests in Mass Effect 1 as I did with Dragon Age: Inquisition, I could play the entire game and not do one and not feel like I missed anything in the game. I did find two benefits that helped them in the favor of Mass Effect 1, first was the quantity for there were a lot less in Mass Effect 1 then in Inquisition and the second is a guess of it being the first game in a series versus the third with having a lot of secondary media content so nothing was really new. Mass Effect 1 is understandable considering the game is a decade old and came out at the beginning of the xbox 360 generation. A friend of mine who usually has the same tastes in games as me didn't like the witcher 3 either. I'm still trying to get him to just invest more time in it. It definitely starts out really slow, but once you've upgraded your skills and get to know the areas better, you'll realize the side quests are better and more detailed than many games' main quests. It's a good reference, but yeah, Mass Effect needs to innovate, not copy and paste.
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Post by projectpatdc on Feb 11, 2017 17:46:06 GMT
If they could turn thoughts into game content sure. But I highly doubt the general side-content will feel as thoroughly designed as it did in Witcher 3. And for the record, while TW3 had a lot of "scan, walk, fight, scan, talk" it also had unique quests like one on Skellige where you suddenly get knocked out by guards and sent to prison giving you a handful of escape-options or one where there's a cave with visions of the future and one where you take a rite of passage speedrun across a mountain and slide all the way down one of the sides. It had plenty of creativity. It only feels padded if you start exhausting the content instead of picking and choosing. Picking and choosing in DA:I was worthless because individual quests had no meat for the most part. All of it revolved around combat and having some meandering conversation you didn't pay attention to. I liked some of it but the average content was really barebones. Don't forget tossing a baby in the oven and the awesome woodland spirit mission where your choices give some pretty unexpected outcomes
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Post by mugwump v1 on Feb 11, 2017 19:10:04 GMT
Encouraging to hear that Bioware have noted just how well TW3 handled its quests. Here's hoping that ME:A manages to offer something similarly satisfying.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2017 19:12:14 GMT
If they could turn thoughts into game content sure. But I highly doubt the general side-content will feel as thoroughly designed as it did in Witcher 3. And for the record, while TW3 had a lot of "scan, walk, fight, scan, talk" it also had unique quests like one on Skellige where you suddenly get knocked out by guards and sent to prison giving you a handful of escape-options or one where there's a cave with visions of the future and one where you take a rite of passage speedrun across a mountain and slide all the way down one of the sides. It had plenty of creativity. It only feels padded if you start exhausting the content instead of picking and choosing. Picking and choosing in DA:I was worthless because individual quests had no meat for the most part. All of it revolved around combat and having some meandering conversation you didn't pay attention to. I liked some of it but the average content was really barebones.
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Post by Sanunes on Feb 11, 2017 20:10:55 GMT
Encouraging to hear that Bioware have noted just how well TW3 handled its quests. Here's hoping that ME:A manages to offer something similarly satisfying. What concerns me always is the trappings of what might be needed to make one area better. Just using an example with The Witcher 3 and what could happen. BioWare sees that people want more depth to quests so they look at what areas of development can be shifted around to make them more like what we see in The Witcher and they take away from companions because they need to the extra voiced dialogue and script work from another part of the game because they can't spend six years in development to improve everything. Now that probably won't happen due to what BioWare has said, but people didn't expect the side quests to suffer because they went and made Dragon Age: Inquisition more open world like Skyrim either.
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Post by zered on Feb 11, 2017 20:17:33 GMT
Words, words, words. Bioware promised a lot of things before DA:I and Me:3 and both games felt like a letdown. Let's just hope they got their shit right this time. I won't bear another disappointment.
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Post by Fogg on Feb 11, 2017 20:22:58 GMT
I read most recent stuff and so far I think it will be going from planet to planet, and on every planet there is a bit of main story, but every planet also has it's own story. Like a Star Trek episode.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Feb 11, 2017 20:47:27 GMT
Encouraging to hear that Bioware have noted just how well TW3 handled its quests. Here's hoping that ME:A manages to offer something similarly satisfying. Encouraging? Knowing BioWare aknowledging errors is usually the first and last step in addressing the problem. It's like when fans complained about Leliana's retcon in DA2 and they addressed it in DA:I by making her mention the inconsistency with a very vague handwave and that ended up drawing even more attention to the flaw, just like the "Why is Cerberus here?" thing in ME3. I've gotten to the point where I don't care about how much BioWare show that they're aware of their mistakes, I don't wanna see Mike Laidlaw hand out praise to CDPR to show how good BioWare is either, I just want them to make games that are as good or better than Witcher 3 so we can stop making fun of BioWare and feel satisfied about their work. All else, including their twitter/interview reassurances about how good it will be doesn't matter. Make or break it, that's all that matters. Words, words, words. Bioware promised a lot of things before DA:I and Me:3 and both games felt like a letdown. Let's just hope they got their shit right this time. I won't bear another disappointment. So much this. At this point BioWare should just realize that them promising things reflects poorly on them. Flynn, don't talk about how impressive the animation is in Frostbite 3 when people just made a big ruckus over the last trailer because FemRyder looked "like shit" and the disarm animation was hilariously bad, and Mac, stop talking about "The Smiling Asari" that was embarassing. Don't forget tossing a baby in the oven and the awesome woodland spirit mission where your choices give some pretty unexpected outcomes I agree but you highlighted a feature that goes both for and against Witcher 3's great quest design: That awesomeness right there is exclusively in the cutscenes. The actual quest is the average "use witcher senses, have dialogue, combat" quest, and that's become an argument against other devs trying to mimic what TW3 "did well", but personally I think you just highlighted why that mostly doesn't matter because we remember this stuff because there's always cutscenes and interesting characters to behold.
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