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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2017 12:25:34 GMT
In return to Ostagar, we see the field of battle. Cailan stayed in the bottle neck, just like he was supposed to. Now, there were the sheer numbers they hadn't accounted for. Also the fact that the tunneling spawn had found a way to go under and around. Yes. After I saw the accusation that Cailan left bottleneck, I went and looked over that battle scene. Nothing points to that fact - made screenshots in my previous post with them and don't see him deviating from strategy. I'm open to screenshots or viable source quote type proof to say otherwise as this hugely interests me. We see a sequence that darkspawn come out of the forest and do their battle cry and then DS charge - meanwhile Cailan is holding his troops in place and encouraging them to be steady as DS runs towards the Ferelden army. He only says 'archers' 'hounds' at a certain points like he was waiting to the letter for the enemy to position itself where he planned - for example if DS has reached a certain landmark then he issues an appropriate order. He does eventually charge after doing all the previous steps and crippling the enemy as much as possible, but that simply means he charged, not that he left bottleneck. I think the Ostagar tragedy lies in a fact that the Ferelden army and Grey Wardens did their 120% best in that battle. But, it was simply a no win one. In the battle sequence we are presented with I don't see any evidence of Cailan being a bad commander at all. He did more than expected under the given circumstances and he did it while following a strategy devised by a much more knowledgeable, experienced general. Cailan gets assigned all this blame - yet before the battle, Ostagar was filled with all sorts of veterans and generals. Plus a bunch of Grey Wardens who while aren't the army generals - still are hardened warriors. NONE of them were assed to give him a better advice than Loghain strategy which he ended up following. It's easy to be a doom sayer and then conveniently claim 'oh I was right' if it goes bad. But - had ANYONE - approached Cailan with a realistic - and satisfying enough for ALL allies so none would turn their sniffy nose up and abandon them - down to the letter plan to do something other than that strategy proposed by Loghain? Nope. Everyone kept bugging him and nagging him how they're all doooooooomed without proposing anything more realistic. He ended up going with a tangible plan because nobody proposed anything better - while Cailan was open to listening to suggestions. He is inexperienced, but he's wise enough to listen to the people who are. Yet, they fail him. I believe his reasons for wanting to enter the battle were immature and he was naive in creating that romanticized heroic vision of how Ferelden will defeat darkspawn (then again if you fight you have to believe in victory or how do you fight without any belief at all? - not saying his wasn't exaggerated). However - during the battle and even in planning he did not behave like a fool as Loghain wishes everyone to believe to assign the blame. Prior to that specific battle, Ferelden had won a number of smaller scale battles - nobody at that point was fiercely claiming that Cailan must stay out of it. It's after the one he had lost that everyone dubs him stupid who shouldn't have fought. Yes, there were the mandatory You shouldn't risk yourself warnings - which all kings get as a part of the routine before every single battle. I'm going to side with Cailan here if you knew only what he knew. Um... actually by Ferelden tradition YES HE SHOULD HAVE FOUGHT if he's says he's a military leader or no one would respect him. It WAS his place to be with the army.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 3, 2017 15:41:45 GMT
I've always felt the main person at fault is Duncan. He should never have committed his entire Grey Warden force bar two to the front line. What was he thinking of? He knew that a Grey Warden is vital to kill the arch-demon and that the AD had not even made an appearance yet. If Duncan had held back, then may be Cailan would have done too. If he felt he wanted to show support for the King then he should have split his forces and sent at least half of them with Loghain. He should also have impressed on Cailan and Loghain how vital it is that a Grey Warden makes the killing blow on the arch-demon, even if he didn't want to tell them the full details of why. Otherwise, theoretically, you could have had a situation where the AD did appear, they succeeded in bringing it down and then Cailan rushed in to finish it off, making all their efforts redundant. Equally Loghain would have known why he should not be attempting to kill off the last Grey Wardens. When it comes to killing an arch-demon, total secrecy by the Grey Wardens just doesn't make sense.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2017 15:49:05 GMT
To me Cailan was a dashing, tragic and betrayed hero, and remains one of the most beloved figures in DA games. I would never forget how courteous he is with the main character, and I always feel the chill when I put his armor on Alistair later. Marek sons sure made DAO brighter.
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Post by Kei on Oct 4, 2017 14:38:20 GMT
Cailan wasn't an hero,nor he was a tragic figure,he was a person who underestimated the difficulties of the fight and that decided to play at being warrior instead to fulfill his role as a king,thus causing a civil war as a consequence of having risked his existence in a battle that did not required his presence. Like when is the last time you see a President or a minister fight side by side with soldiers? He should have accepted the fact that he wa the king,period,and should have stayed with the queen into organizing the country from the capital,not in the frontlines. In return to Ostagar, we see the field of battle. Cailan stayed in the bottle neck, just like he was supposed to. Now, there were the sheer numbers they hadn't accounted for. Also the fact that the tunneling spawn had found a way to go under and around. I don't see any evidence of Cailan being a bad commander at all. He did more than expected under the given circumstances and he did it while following a strategy devised by a much more knowledgeable, experienced general. Cailan knew that the darkspawn horde at Ostagar would have been by far more numerous than before ,you have evidence from that in the Dlc,he knew he could lose yet he still decided to be in the frontlines.A king,in the frontlines,that's just insane.It reminded me of the dialogue where Sten said,those nobles who want to be warriors at all cost and don' care to fulfill the responsability of their position,so yea Cailan was a bad king.Moreover his orders to charge the army of Darkspawns with Mabari was awful,as that is an army with no fear,so mabari will just not work against them and will never be able to confuse them.Finally Cailan did not remained in the bottle neck he ordered to charge into the open.
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Post by Kei on Oct 4, 2017 14:39:34 GMT
I've always felt the main person at fault is Duncan. He should never have committed his entire Grey Warden force bar two to the front line. That's not Duncan's fault rather his writing(so the writers) They had to justify a way for non letting the protagonist to have contact with others GW,so they've decided to force a way to kill them all. A rather poor way,as they could have just used Howe/Loghain as a reason for their death,rather than Duncan committing all of them into the frontlines,cause that makes Duncan looks like he was a novice GW rather than a senior GW, for committing such basic miscalculations. All of course done in function of that contrived tie-up for the Dark ritual sub-plot.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2017 14:56:43 GMT
Cailan wasn't an hero,nor he was a tragic figure,he was a person who underestimated the difficulties of the fight and that decided to play at being warrior instead to fulfill his role as a king. He did not underestimate it. Loghain concealed vital information about the secret passage in Ostagar's tower that covered up the build up of the Darkspawn forces in the area. The scout reports gave Calain numbers for the forces, and he knew that between his two armies he had enough to beat the horde back. The commanders took to the field and won against far worse odds. Calain also suggested repeatedly for waiting for Orlais reinforcements, but Loghain was unwilling to do so, and pushed Calain into battle. Plus, bringing back Orlaisian army risked civil war in Fereldain if Loghain's reaction is to go on. Calain acted like a king should, making descisions. Calain fought according to rules of the warfare at the time, on the field, surrounded with his bodyguard to provide the rallying point and keeping morale up. The size of the armies at the time, and means of coordination and communication demanded visuals on the leaders and the leaders keeping the soldiers from panicking and dropping arms/surrendering. Should Calain stayed behind, against darkspawn, the troops would have ran the moment they saw the opposition. Most of them are levies, not professional army. Calain and his knights have to stand firm if there is any hope to win the engagement. Calain' bodyguard job would have been to surround him, close the shield wall, and carry him out if things went south at any cost. Duncan is trying to do that when he sees that Calain is under pressure. It is unfair to judge Calain actions from the modern warfare PoV where the commander gets reports and directs troop movement from afar. Calain also provided back-ups in case of the unforeseen. He does keep Alistair, who is the closest he has as a legitimate heir off the battlefield (according to his intelligence). Calain did lose the day, but the failure is not his, the failure is placed on Loghain for falsifying the intelligence reports and forcing Calain to make descisions on incomplete set of information, and on Calain's knights that do not cover him adequately.
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Post by Kei on Oct 4, 2017 15:20:41 GMT
Cailan wasn't an hero,nor he was a tragic figure,he was a person who underestimated the difficulties of the fight and that decided to play at being warrior instead to fulfill his role as a king. He did not underestimate it. Loghain concealed vital information about the secret passage in Ostagar's tower that covered up the build up of the Darkspawn forces in the area. The scout reports gave Calain numbers for the forces, and he knew that between his two armies he had enough to beat the horde back. The commanders took to the field and won against far worse odds. Calain also suggested repeatedly for waiting for Orlais reinforcements, but Loghain was unwilling to do so, and pushed Calain into battle. Plus, bringing back Orlaisian army risked civil war in Fereldain if Loghain's reaction is to go on. Calain acted like a king should, making descisions. Calain fought according to rules of the warfare at the time, on the field, surrounded with his bodyguard to provide the rallying point and keeping morale up. The size of the armies at the time, and means of coordination and communication demanded visuals on the leaders and the leaders keeping the soldiers from panicking and dropping arms/surrendering. Should Calain stayed behind, against darkspawn, the troops would have ran the moment they saw the opposition. Most of them are levies, not professional army. Calain and his knights have to stand firm if there is any hope to win the engagement. Calain' bodyguard job would have been to surround him, close the shield wall, and carry him out if things went south at any cost. Duncan is trying to do that when he sees that Calain is under pressure. It is unfair to judge Calain actions from the modern warfare PoV where the commander gets reports and directs troop movement from afar. Calain also provided back-ups in case of the unforeseen. He does keep Alistair, who is the closest he has as a legitimate heir off the battlefield (according to his intelligence). Calain did lose the day, but the failure is not his, the failure is placed on Loghain for falsifying the intelligence reports and forcing Calain to make descisions on incomplete set of information, and on Calain's knights that do not cover him adequately. The area of the lower chambers of Ishal were all sealed by Loghain,the darkspawns haven't used it to enter in the tower,they have drilled another path on their own. The roof of the low chambers particularly,was drilled by an Ogre,so it does not constitute a secret passage per se of whom Loghain was aware of,unless he had omniscience (which he does not have) to forknowledge the Ogre and the hole,and the Warden needs to use that hole if he wants to have access to those chambers in the Dlc. Waiting for Orlesians armies is nonsense for two reasons 1)Darkspawns wouldn't wait Cailan to have his reinforcement as they would have pretty much attacked that night. 2)Cailan cannot fornowledge how the Orleisans will act, they can do the same thing that they did in previous blights. It's absolutely not unfair to judge Cailan based on reasonable standpoints,as there were plenty of politicians and rulers from ancient times who never went on battle directly as that isn't their job,so it isn't a modern warfare tactic,it is just common sense for a ruler to not be in the front lines.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2017 16:48:31 GMT
Calain did, and he died bravely, and he is the very image of a true noble man, knight and king, the only reason why kings are of any use at all, in the romanticized literature. He is awesome, and I love it that he is that way in the game. He made the game worth playing and emotionally stirring. Loved him  The way Loghain acts, I think he knew about the secret passage. Someone gave a very good account of it in Loghain thread, and I agree with that interpretation. Here is the post I am talking about: bsn.boards.net/post/881301While obviously, the game leaves the room for other interpretations, because it's a good game, this one is my canon where Loghain vs Cailan are concerned.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 11, 2017 19:51:24 GMT
Replaying the mage origin again today I was struck how badly let down Cailan was by the Circle. He asked for assistance against a darkspawn horde and was given 7 mages! No wonder we don't see any mages getting stuck in before the darkspawn reach the defending line (which would have been an excellent way of thinning out the horde). Clearly the small number of mages were being held back with Loghain's forces and so were never used. Even Drakon realised the value of mages against a horde of darkspawn.
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Post by eliscous on Jun 21, 2018 8:59:36 GMT
I find this Topic very interesting. My Input will be also in the direction of the Logain plot. I always see and headcanon the Situation as follow (in in this way I have the Impression that all the decisions made sens): I always see that Logain was preparing a "coup" Long before Ostagar. If you Play the DLC Return to Ostagar You find out that Cailan was planning to divorce Anora and marry the empresse Celene. If you have Logain in your Party at this time you will see that he did not know about that. but even if he did not know about that he saw the very open politic of Cailan toward Orlais and his search of reconciliation between the 2 countries. That is something Logain swa as treason/ personal betrayal after all he did with Maric to put the Orlais out of Fereleden. He was not able to see a long term alliance and set his grievances aside. He plaaned to let the king die in Ostagar and to take power after that because he see himself as the sole wall between Orlais and Ferelden, the sole Guardian and protector. I made iarl Easmon be poisonned by Jowan, allow the slaughter the Cousland (because he knew that they will Support the king and because I suspect that Howe was spying on them and tell Logain that Bryce Cousland was likely the "carrier pigeon" between Cailan and Celene and the new Close confident of the king.I tried to have the Support of the Tower of Magic by supporting Uldred Claim and inderectily was responsible for the fall of the Tower. After that he tracked the remaining Greys Wardens and suppress all resistence and opoosition violently. Then for Ostagar the plan of Cailan was to wait for Orlais reinforcements. Logain disagreed so he suggested another plan. Cailan trusted Logain because he was a hero and a great General and strategist. But the real Goal of Lgogain was to have the king killed and all the Grey Wardens slaughter because he saw the Grey Warden as orlais spies. Cailan did what Logain asked him to do and was killled in the process. What was always the Goal of Logain. If you see this that way it was a great strategy in fact. There was only two sand in the gear. But could he planned that Flemeth would save them? It is of course my personal Interpretation.
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Post by talyn82 on Oct 12, 2018 5:23:50 GMT
I know this is an old thread, and I hate performing thread necromancy. But I just wanted to say I too liked King Cailan, and will admit when playing the "Return to Ostagar" dlc. I got a bit emotional when you find Cailan's body and the flashback plays. I always burn the body.
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Post by Sonya on Dec 9, 2019 20:02:28 GMT
Unpopular opiniion but still an opinion. What annoys me about Cailan is his stupidity that led to deaths of other soldiers for no good reason (at least the game shows it. Some people can think otherwise but everyone has his own opinion). Maybe I missed smth, but from what I saw I can tell this: 1) The first time we meet Cailan I had (and still have cauz still play the game) a feeling that the only thing he wants "glory for everyone"@ his own words. 2) Duncan confirmed that Cailan did not take the Blight seriously (just choose a certain line after meeting the king). 3) Cailan respected GW, wanted to fight with mighty Duncan side by side (again, Cailan words) but still did not listen to Duncan advice. 4) Did not listen to Loghain (let's leave for now his futher actions, I despise him for many things), but Loghain was a skilled experienced general. 5) Cailan did not rule the country, Anora did, he even did not care about his king duties. 6) As a result: he went into the hopeless battle draggig along lots of soldiers to their deaths, including Duncan. Yes, "glory for everyone" only post-mortem. 7) He is shown as empty-headed (even Loghain called him childish), flirting with Celene (maybe he WAS going to get rid of Anora and marry Celene as it is politically convenient: did he just flirt? Someone made a hint to him? Did he himself figure it out? It's the thing still unclear to me). 8) I can't, just can't support a theory that he did all that (deaths, letter etc) to get rid of Mac Tir. He just did not seem so clever (disguised?) to plan everything for the future (and actually if he is, it's just stupid make up this plan HOPING it will work, there are better ways to get rid of Mac Tir if he wanted that). So in general: I feel disgust for Cailan cauz of his actions and character. In DLC when Alistair tells poeicallly about Cailan and then yells at you if you refuse that "proper king funeral" ("he was our king damn!!!" Yeah? King? So what? Being a king gives him respect by default? You should earn that respect at least, stupid Alistair!) I want to punch him. He is dead, yes, so "evil play" - give to darkspawn, usual play - give to wolves (no time to waste to that idiot - i.e. middle ground giving to the nature + helping animals with food).
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