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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2017 21:03:30 GMT
Yes, you have to take the risk on her to find out that she's good to her word. There is reason enough to be suspicious that Samra is lying though before the point you make the choice... just by reading the codex and realizing that AY is not the all-encompassing doom only, so rare that only 3 exist, disorder that Samara makes it out to be. Listen to me, you CAN interpret it whichever way you want. I'm not saying you have to save Morinth. I'm saying there's an opening to rationalize saving Morinth written into the game. It's not black and white, good or bad. It's RPGing. Except that taking a chance on Morinth doesn't make sense if you're willing to accept her lies but not Samara's. If you're wrong about Morinth, people will pay for it with their lives. If someone is wrong about Samara...you just find out that there's more Ardat Yakshi. I have to disagree that there's good justification for saving Morinth. I don't care if you continue siding with her in your game, but since we're talking about it, I'm confused on whether you're basing it on meta knowledge, in-game knowledge or both. If you were aiming just for her arrest, the issue is keeping Samara from killing her and somehow keeping Morinth under arrest with her biotic abilities. If you're arguing for giving her a chance because there's no proof until after you choose, we get an admission from her that she's killed people for fun during duels. If you're arguing based on Codex knowledge, then it's a matter of deciding which liar to believe. That takes a kind of blind faith in someone who right up front tried to force her will on Shepard. I can believe that Morinth is telling the truth when she says "I just can't stop being your daughter, Mother." She doesn't admit to outright killing anyone (aside from the implication of killing someone while involved in a fair fight with them - allowing them to think their winning just before you kill them, and that statement is made in reference to a chess game) nor is there any concrete proof that she killed Nef. As I've repeatedly said, the evidence against Morinth comes from what Samara says about her, including what she says is Morinth's MO with respect to Nef's killing. It's not questioned and Samara doesn't prove any of it because she's above questioning. If she's lying, Morinth could be completely innocent and the victim of severe anti-AY prejudice in Asari society. Shepard can come to that conclusion and decide to give her a chance to tell her side of the story (the same way a disabled person should be given the chance to be heard before being kicked out school or prevented from participating in this or that activity because of the prejudice people have towards them). What is not available in the game is to take the whole matter before a court to determine who is and is not telling the truth. Shepard has to decide to kill one or the other in that moment... but it is a moral dilemma presented in the game and , as such, there is justification presented in the game to allow the player to decide either way. Stop judging my morality, my sanity, and my ability to reason my way through a dilemma IRL just because I'm spotting an opportunity to play an RPG in a different way than the "crowd" does. ... and don't you think is rather silly that Anaya suddenly does a complete 180 and just accepts Shepard's evidence on the Asari merc, Elnora, he/she may have just killed just because Samara, who wasn't present to see where/how Shepard got that evidence, says it's good. Suddenly what's inadmissible becomes admissible on the word of a person who wasn't there. How the hell does Samara know if Shepard is telling the truth or not? Furthermore, if her code is so strict and perfect that she'd justifiably kill Anaya for detaining her for following order of her possibly, but unproven, corrupt superiors... Why does she still join Shepard and not just shoot him when he/she sells the other bit of evidence back to the corrupt Volus merchant Pitne For? Even further, if you take Samara on Thane's loyalty mission, she says absolutely nothing when Bailey admits to taking a form of "bribe" from Joram Talid. Shouldn't Shepard have to order her not to shoot him? |
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 2, 2017 22:01:42 GMT
Furthermore, if her code is so strict and perfect that she'd justifiably kill Anaya for detaining her for following order of her possibly, but unproven, corrupt superiors... Why does she still join Shepard and not just shoot him when he/she sells the other bit of evidence back to the corrupt Volus merchant Pitne For? Even further, if you take Samara on Thane's loyalty mission, she says absolutely nothing when Bailey admits to taking a form of "bribe" from Joram Talid. Shouldn't Shepard have to order her not to shoot him? Post-suicide mission, yes, Samara should have some issues with Shepard if it becomes known that Shepard sold info to Pitne For. As for Thane's LM, it's a non-issue. Samara has sworn to adhere to Shepard's moral code rather than her own, at least until the SM is complete. If Shepard doesn't care, Samara would react based on that. At least, it's plausible. Now, Samara may feel compelled to return at a later date if she survives the SM, but that's a separate issue. |
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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 2, 2017 22:15:51 GMT
Furthermore, if her code is so strict and perfect that she'd justifiably kill Anaya for detaining her for following order of her possibly, but unproven, corrupt superiors... Why does she still join Shepard and not just shoot him when he/she sells the other bit of evidence back to the corrupt Volus merchant Pitne For? Even further, if you take Samara on Thane's loyalty mission, she says absolutely nothing when Bailey admits to taking a form of "bribe" from Joram Talid. Shouldn't Shepard have to order her not to shoot him? Post-suicide mission, yes, Samara should have some issues with Shepard if it becomes known that Shepard sold info to Pitne For. As for Thane's LM, it's a non-issue. Samara has sworn to adhere to Shepard's moral code rather than her own, at least until the SM is complete. If Shepard doesn't care, Samara would react based on that. At least, it's plausible. Now, Samara may feel compelled to return at a later date if she survives the SM, but that's a separate issue. Haha, that would have been great if ME2 kept track of all the missions, Samara was with Shepard. Then, in ME3, everyone you met on these missions is just dead.  From Thane's LM alone, that should have been: Bailey - takes bribes Talid - bribes others The turian politician - employs thugs to shake down businesses and influence votes The Krogan thugs - shake down businesses and hurt people Thane's son - took a hostage and shot some body guards Thane - dealt with mouse and admits to being an assassin Mouse - clearly involved in shady business I probably forgot some.  As I said before, basically not a single person you meet in ME2 is really innocent. In fact, innocence is such a hard term to define (in what context is one innocent), it's the worst idea to give just one person the authority to do it and kill everyone else. That's exactly why due process is so important because it is based on issues, not people. However, I believe Justicars are only supposed to have jurisdiction in asari space, which the Citadel is not. They usually don't leave asari space either, so it's not a problem. Illium is a special case because it's that grey area between asari space and the terminus systems. On the other hand, When on Omega, Samara does comment that she might return there and basically pull a Garrus or something, so I don't know, she seems to think that her authority applies to the entire galaxy. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2017 22:23:08 GMT
Post-suicide mission, yes, Samara should have some issues with Shepard if it becomes known that Shepard sold info to Pitne For. As for Thane's LM, it's a non-issue. Samara has sworn to adhere to Shepard's moral code rather than her own, at least until the SM is complete. If Shepard doesn't care, Samara would react based on that. At least, it's plausible. Now, Samara may feel compelled to return at a later date if she survives the SM, but that's a separate issue. Haha, that would have been great if ME2 kept track of all the missions, Samara was with Shepard. Then, in ME3, everyone you met on these missions is just dead. From Thane's LM alone, that should have been: Bailey - takes bribes Talid - bribes others The turian politician - imploys thugs to shake down businesses and influence votes The Krogan thugs - shake down businesses and hurt people Thane's son - took a histage and shot some body guards Thane - dealt with mouse and admits to being an assassin I probably forgot some. As I said before, basically not a single person you meet in ME2 is really innocent. In fact, innocence is such a hard term to define (in what context is one innocent), it's the worst idea to give just one person the authority to do it and kill everyone else. That's exactly why due process is so important because it is based on issues, not people. However, I believe Justicars are only supposed to have jurisdiction in asari space, which the Citadel is not. They usually don't leave asari space either, so it's not a problem. Illium is a special case because it's that grey area between asari space and the terminus systems. On the other hand, When on Omega, Samara does comment that she might return there and basically pull a Garrus or something, so I don't know, she seems to think that her authority applies to the entire galaxy. Exactly. |
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Post by opuspace on Mar 2, 2017 22:29:39 GMT
I can believe that Morinth is telling the truth when she says "I just can't stop being your daughter, Mother." She doesn't admit to outright killing anyone (aside from the implication of killing someone while involved in a fair fight with them - allowing them to think their winning just before you kill them, and that statement is made in reference to a chess game) nor is there any concrete proof that she killed Nef. As I've repeatedly said, the evidence against Morinth comes from what Samara says about her, including what she says is Morinth's MO with respect to Nef's killing. It's not questioned and Samara doesn't prove any of it because she's above questioning. If she's lying, Morinth could be completely innocent and the victim of severe anti-AY prejudice in Asari society. Shepard can come to that conclusion and decide to give her a chance to tell her side of the story (the same way a disabled person should be given the chance to be heard before being kicked out school or prevented from participating in this or that activity because of the prejudice people have towards them). What is not available in the game is to take the whole matter before a court to determine who is and is not telling the truth. Shepard has to decide to kill one or the other in that moment... but it is a moral dilemma presented in the game and , as such, there is justification presented in the game to allow the player to decide either way. Stop judging my morality, my sanity, and my ability to reason my way through a dilemma IRL just because I'm spotting an opportunity to play an RPG in a different way than the "crowd" does. ... and don't you think is rather silly that Anaya suddenly does a complete 180 and just accepts Shepard's evidence on the Asari merc, Elnora, he/she may have just killed just because Samara, who wasn't present to see where/how Shepard got that evidence, says it's good. Suddenly what's inadmissible becomes admissible on the word of a person who wasn't there. How the hell does Samara know if Shepard is telling the truth or not? Furthermore, if her code is so strict and perfect that she'd justifiably kill Anaya for detaining her for following order of her possibly, but unproven, corrupt superiors... Why does she still join Shepard and not just shoot him when he/she sells the other bit of evidence back to the corrupt Volus merchant Pitne For? Even further, if you take Samara on Thane's loyalty mission, she says absolutely nothing when Bailey admits to taking a form of "bribe" from Joram Talid. Shouldn't Shepard have to order her not to shoot him? I never questioned whether Morinth was lying about being Samara's daughter. What was noted however was that Morinth is lying about being the genetic destiny of Asari. If you're arguing against trusting Samara because of a lie, I am confused on why you're trusting Morinth when you're not disputing she's a liar as well. And you haven't answered what I've been asking about where you're drawing your conclusions about Morinth and Samara. Are you using strictly in-game knowledge to judge them or are you using the full amount available to the player? In the end, it is your game and I don't have any intention to make you change your mind. But I'm trying to understand certain parts of your reasoning that doesn't make sense to me. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2017 14:48:52 GMT
I can believe that Morinth is telling the truth when she says "I just can't stop being your daughter, Mother." She doesn't admit to outright killing anyone (aside from the implication of killing someone while involved in a fair fight with them - allowing them to think their winning just before you kill them, and that statement is made in reference to a chess game) nor is there any concrete proof that she killed Nef. As I've repeatedly said, the evidence against Morinth comes from what Samara says about her, including what she says is Morinth's MO with respect to Nef's killing. It's not questioned and Samara doesn't prove any of it because she's above questioning. If she's lying, Morinth could be completely innocent and the victim of severe anti-AY prejudice in Asari society. Shepard can come to that conclusion and decide to give her a chance to tell her side of the story (the same way a disabled person should be given the chance to be heard before being kicked out school or prevented from participating in this or that activity because of the prejudice people have towards them). What is not available in the game is to take the whole matter before a court to determine who is and is not telling the truth. Shepard has to decide to kill one or the other in that moment... but it is a moral dilemma presented in the game and , as such, there is justification presented in the game to allow the player to decide either way. Stop judging my morality, my sanity, and my ability to reason my way through a dilemma IRL just because I'm spotting an opportunity to play an RPG in a different way than the "crowd" does. ... and don't you think is rather silly that Anaya suddenly does a complete 180 and just accepts Shepard's evidence on the Asari merc, Elnora, he/she may have just killed just because Samara, who wasn't present to see where/how Shepard got that evidence, says it's good. Suddenly what's inadmissible becomes admissible on the word of a person who wasn't there. How the hell does Samara know if Shepard is telling the truth or not? Furthermore, if her code is so strict and perfect that she'd justifiably kill Anaya for detaining her for following order of her possibly, but unproven, corrupt superiors... Why does she still join Shepard and not just shoot him when he/she sells the other bit of evidence back to the corrupt Volus merchant Pitne For? Even further, if you take Samara on Thane's loyalty mission, she says absolutely nothing when Bailey admits to taking a form of "bribe" from Joram Talid. Shouldn't Shepard have to order her not to shoot him? I never questioned whether Morinth was lying about being Samara's daughter. What was noted however was that Morinth is lying about being the genetic destiny of Asari. If you're arguing against trusting Samara because of a lie, I am confused on why you're trusting Morinth when you're not disputing she's a liar as well. And you haven't answered what I've been asking about where you're drawing your conclusions about Morinth and Samara. Are you using strictly in-game knowledge to judge them or are you using the full amount available to the player? In the end, it is your game and I don't have any intention to make you change your mind. But I'm trying to understand certain parts of your reasoning that doesn't make sense to me. In that sentence "I can't just stop being your daughter, Mother!" she's saying that she's just like her mother. It's about personality not the physical genetics issue of Ardat-Yakshi being infertile. As for "genetic destiny" - people in the ME Unverse seem to think it's a great thing that the Krogan are largely infertile and Asari are as long-lived as the Krogan are. Maybe Morinth believes the Asari also need some "population control." More likely she's saying the "pure-blood Asari" are the genetic destiny of the Asari rather than continually seeking out matings with other species... taking the risk that some will be Ardat-Yakshi, but many will just be "pure-blood." I have repeatedly answered your question, and will do so yet again... I am using a combination of the dialogue right up to the point Shepard has to make the decision and the codex. I consider the codex to be the PC's extranet source for information and a valid in game source that Shepard may have accessed from the ship before going to Omega with Samara. The information on the Shadow Broker terminal is certainly a possible... depending on when Shepard does LotSB - before or after Samara's LM. |
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Post by opuspace on Mar 3, 2017 23:39:46 GMT
In that sentence "I can't just stop being your daughter, Mother!" she's saying that she's just like her mother. It's about personality not the physical genetics issue of Ardat-Yakshi being infertile. As for "genetic destiny" - people in the ME Unverse seem to think it's a great thing that the Krogan are largely infertile and Asari are as long-lived as the Krogan are. Maybe Morinth believes the Asari also need some "population control." More likely she's saying the "pure-blood Asari" are the genetic destiny of the Asari rather than continually seeking out matings with other species... taking the risk that some will be Ardat-Yakshi, but many will just be "pure-blood." I have repeatedly answered your question, and will do so yet again... I am using a combination of the dialogue right up to the point Shepard has to make the decision and the codex. I consider the codex to be the PC's extranet source for information and a valid in game source that Shepard may have accessed from the ship before going to Omega with Samara. The information on the Shadow Broker terminal is certainly a possible... depending on when Shepard does LotSB - before or after Samara's LM. So it's in-game knowledge you're basing it on? Ok, if that's the case, we'll proceed from there. That line about her being Samara's daughter was never the focus of our debate in the first place. It was the line, "I am the genetic destiny of the Asari". She referred to herself. She is an Ardat Yakshi. Ardat Yakshi are sterile. Genetic destinies, as in passing on genes to offspring, which is a dead end for Asari. It's a false claim on Morinth's part, a lie. The Codex does not support her claim. What's troubling is that you don't deny Morinth is a liar, but you're willing to take a risk on her (and if we're staying strictly in the game from Shepard's point of view, it's a risk with a powerful biotic who tried to sexually assault Shepard) whereas you're basing your reason to doubt Samara because you believe she's lying. Samara will keep her promise to protect Shepard from Morinth when she tries to force her will on Shepard but there's nothing to trust Morinth on until after you betray Samara. What's more, is that you never answered my other questions like what sort of judicial system you wanted Morinth to face. If you want her to face a human court, there is the complication of the Asari government interfering with the proceedings because of their active suppression of knowledge of Ardat Yakshi getting out. EDIT: There's also something that keeps pestering me as well. You're vehemently against Samara killing Morinth on the off chance she is innocent and would rather have her go through due process to avoid that. Why then, is it acceptable for Morinth to have killed someone in a duel since there is an off chance that person was innocent? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2017 12:30:48 GMT
In that sentence "I can't just stop being your daughter, Mother!" she's saying that she's just like her mother. It's about personality not the physical genetics issue of Ardat-Yakshi being infertile. As for "genetic destiny" - people in the ME Unverse seem to think it's a great thing that the Krogan are largely infertile and Asari are as long-lived as the Krogan are. Maybe Morinth believes the Asari also need some "population control." More likely she's saying the "pure-blood Asari" are the genetic destiny of the Asari rather than continually seeking out matings with other species... taking the risk that some will be Ardat-Yakshi, but many will just be "pure-blood." I have repeatedly answered your question, and will do so yet again... I am using a combination of the dialogue right up to the point Shepard has to make the decision and the codex. I consider the codex to be the PC's extranet source for information and a valid in game source that Shepard may have accessed from the ship before going to Omega with Samara. The information on the Shadow Broker terminal is certainly a possible... depending on when Shepard does LotSB - before or after Samara's LM. So it's in-game knowledge you're basing it on? Ok, if that's the case, we'll proceed from there. That line about her being Samara's daughter was never the focus of our debate in the first place. It was the line, "I am the genetic destiny of the Asari". She referred to herself. She is an Ardat Yakshi. Ardat Yakshi are sterile. Genetic destinies, as in passing on genes to offspring, which is a dead end for Asari. It's a false claim on Morinth's part, a lie. The Codex does not support her claim. What's troubling is that you don't deny Morinth is a liar, but you're willing to take a risk on her (and if we're staying strictly in the game from Shepard's point of view, it's a risk with a powerful biotic who tried to sexually assault Shepard) whereas you're basing your reason to doubt Samara because you believe she's lying. Samara will keep her promise to protect Shepard from Morinth when she tries to force her will on Shepard but there's nothing to trust Morinth on until after you betray Samara. What's more, is that you never answered my other questions like what sort of judicial system you wanted Morinth to face. If you want her to face a human court, there is the complication of the Asari government interfering with the proceedings because of their active suppression of knowledge of Ardat Yakshi getting out. EDIT: There's also something that keeps pestering me as well. You're vehemently against Samara killing Morinth on the off chance she is innocent and would rather have her go through due process to avoid that. Why then, is it acceptable for Morinth to have killed someone in a duel since there is an off chance that person was innocent? Look... I'm just going to call it because you keep throwing up things questioning my actual morality when I'm trying to have a purely academic discussion with you about an in-game interpretation possibility. You don't know me as a person and when I role-play, I'm not necessarily role-playing a person who is like me or believes in things like I do. In fact, I've role-played Shepard in many different ways... and I use different interpretation possibilities in the game to accomplish these differing characterizations of Shepard. The writing style of ME is what, IMO, opens up this flexibility to interpret each scenario in wildly different ways... and for me, the fun in playing this game is stretching a little in order to play it in as many different ways as I can. I have also repeatedly said that the scenario itself is not well written... that, preferably, Shepard could take Morinth in for further questioning and the application of "due process." For Shepard to kill Morinth just on the faith of Samara's word is AS BAD as the reverrse. Shepard has no solid evidence in which to inflict a death penalty on either one nor is he/she acting in that moment in self-defense. However, the game does not offer Shepard the option of arresting Morinth. He/She must aid in the killing of one of them. Justicars are not described in game as being "Asari law enforcement." Det. Anaya represents Asari law enforcement. Justicars are described as being more like an out-dated monastic order (like the Masons or Templars). I find it "troubling" that you're so willing to just accept the word of someone adhering to an outdated code of ethics and kill someone at their mere request rather than insisting that the "alleged perpetrator" be turned over to actual law enforcement. |
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 4, 2017 16:38:29 GMT
Plus side is that Shepard doesn't actually do the killing. Samara does and Shepard seems to understand that she has the authority to do so, regardless of personal feelings on the subject. In other words, Shepard doesn't need to buy into Morinth being guilty or innocent, just has to know (based on things said by asari cops) that Samara is within her rights to do as she's doing. Therefore, it wouldn't make sense in-game to bring Morinth in for further questioning.
What would be good is if there was a follow-up line of questioning on the subject. Shepard could then choose to disagree with Samara openly (like can be done regarding Mordin's work on the genophage) but ultimately wouldn't change the storyline. This could also be used to further explain what Morinth has done to deserve a death sentence. Since the problem is the storyline doesn't flesh things out this would change things.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2017 17:29:13 GMT
Plus side is that Shepard doesn't actually do the killing. Samara does and Shepard seems to understand that she has the authority to do so, regardless of personal feelings on the subject. In other words, Shepard doesn't need to buy into Morinth being guilty or innocent, just has to know (based on things said by asari cops) that Samara is within her rights to do as she's doing. Therefore, it wouldn't make sense in-game to bring Morinth in for further questioning. What would be good is if there was a follow-up line of questioning on the subject. Shepard could then choose to disagree with Samara openly (like can be done regarding Mordin's work on the genophage) but ultimately wouldn't change the storyline. This could also be used to further explain what Morinth has done to deserve a death sentence. Since the problem is the storyline doesn't flesh things out this would change things. Shepard, however, does indicate to Samara that most Asari he/she has talked to seemed conflicted about Justicars (but that is as far as that conversation goes with it). When he queries the tracking officer Dara in Illium, she indicates that no Asari would ever a Justicar's authority, but that they fear what might happen if an non-Asari did. Shepard also asks what authority they represent and gets the answer that they "represent their code." It's all very subjective as to what degree of authority Samara actually has. Shepard's authority comes from the Council which is a recognized multi-racial government body in their present tense, but the authority of justicars and where that comes from beyond ancient Asari tradition is really not ever clearly laid out. The Asari clearly have a form of law enforcement in the current time that is not justicars. I agree - he/she should be given an opportunity to really question Samara's authority... but, if Dara's fears are anything to go on, Shepard questioning Samara to that degree would probably get him/her killed. To phrase in a theoretical question - If, today, the pope asked you to help a warrior monk to kill a heretic said by that monk to have killed a faithful member of the church's society without seeing any physical evidence beyond the monk's assurance that it fit the MO... would you just go do it and not question at all whether or not the modern church should be accountable to the state's legal authorities for that action? |
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Post by opuspace on Mar 5, 2017 16:10:28 GMT
Look... I'm just going to call it because you keep throwing up things questioning my actual morality when I'm trying to have a purely academic discussion with you about an in-game interpretation possibility. You don't know me as a person and when I role-play, I'm not necessarily role-playing a person who is like me or believes in things like I do. In fact, I've role-played Shepard in many different ways... and I use different interpretation possibilities in the game to accomplish these differing characterizations of Shepard. The writing style of ME is what, IMO, opens up this flexibility to interpret each scenario in wildly different ways... and for me, the fun in playing this game is stretching a little in order to play it in as many different ways as I can. I have also repeatedly said that the scenario itself is not well written... that, preferably, Shepard could take Morinth in for further questioning and the application of "due process." For Shepard to kill Morinth just on the faith of Samara's word is AS BAD as the reverrse. Shepard has no solid evidence in which to inflict a death penalty on either one nor is he/she acting in that moment in self-defense. However, the game does not offer Shepard the option of arresting Morinth. He/She must aid in the killing of one of them. Justicars are not described in game as being "Asari law enforcement." Det. Anaya represents Asari law enforcement. Justicars are described as being more like an out-dated monastic order (like the Masons or Templars). I find it "troubling" that you're so willing to just accept the word of someone adhering to an outdated code of ethics and kill someone at their mere request rather than insisting that the "alleged perpetrator" be turned over to actual law enforcement. I'm really not sure how the questions I ask are directed at you as a person. I've already said that in the end, it's your own game save. I don't really get either why you're so certain of what I think about the Code. Much as I don't know you, you also don't know me. It's great that you're roleplaying and I wish you had started right off with that instead of going into a character's guilt as though it were a personal stance. I think it's time I accept that you don't see the Justicars as an acknowledged authority by Asari the same way that people might see the police or CIA. We don't have to like it, but we do see people like detective Anaya who are authority figures accept their word. It's not as though this is unusual that fear goes hand in hand with respect towards an authority. How many stories go about people who "disappear" whenever they're suspected of going against government interests? However, the Codex does support the fact that Justicars do have legality amongst Asari, unlike the Masons or Templars. I've repeatedly pointed out that your justification in-game doesn't add up because it requires taking Morinth at her word when she's doing much worse than Samara from Shepard's perspective. Questioning the logistics doesn't reflect on the person making a hypothetical defense. We could have stayed on a topic about what sort of judicial process would be practical for Ardat Yakshi who have way too much power and way too much experience for regular police officers to take into custody. We could have discussed how the scenario could have been written differently to add better nuance. As it is, it's clear that the discussion hasn't been going anywhere productive. Thanks for hanging out this long to try to answer what questions I asked. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 17:42:14 GMT
Look... I'm just going to call it because you keep throwing up things questioning my actual morality when I'm trying to have a purely academic discussion with you about an in-game interpretation possibility. You don't know me as a person and when I role-play, I'm not necessarily role-playing a person who is like me or believes in things like I do. In fact, I've role-played Shepard in many different ways... and I use different interpretation possibilities in the game to accomplish these differing characterizations of Shepard. The writing style of ME is what, IMO, opens up this flexibility to interpret each scenario in wildly different ways... and for me, the fun in playing this game is stretching a little in order to play it in as many different ways as I can. I have also repeatedly said that the scenario itself is not well written... that, preferably, Shepard could take Morinth in for further questioning and the application of "due process." For Shepard to kill Morinth just on the faith of Samara's word is AS BAD as the reverrse. Shepard has no solid evidence in which to inflict a death penalty on either one nor is he/she acting in that moment in self-defense. However, the game does not offer Shepard the option of arresting Morinth. He/She must aid in the killing of one of them. Justicars are not described in game as being "Asari law enforcement." Det. Anaya represents Asari law enforcement. Justicars are described as being more like an out-dated monastic order (like the Masons or Templars). I find it "troubling" that you're so willing to just accept the word of someone adhering to an outdated code of ethics and kill someone at their mere request rather than insisting that the "alleged perpetrator" be turned over to actual law enforcement. I've already said that in the end, it's your own game save. I don't really get either why you're so certain of what I think about the Code. Much as I don't know you, you also don't know me. It's great that you're roleplaying and I wish you had started right off with that instead of going into a character's guilt as though it were a personal stance. I think it's time I accept that you don't see the Justicars as an acknowledged authority by Asari the same way that people might see the police or CIA. We don't have to like it, but we do see people like detective Anaya who are authority figures accept their word. It's not as though this is unusual that fear goes hand in hand with respect towards an authority. How many stories go about people who "disappear" whenever they're suspected of going against government interests? However, the Codex does support the fact that Justicars do have legality amongst Asari, unlike the Masons or Templars. I've repeatedly pointed out that your justification in-game doesn't add up because it requires taking Morinth at her word when she's doing much worse than Samara from Shepard's perspective. Questioning the logistics doesn't reflect on the person making a hypothetical defense. We could have stayed on a topic about what sort of judicial process would be practical for Ardat Yakshi who have way too much power and way too much experience for regular police officers to take into custody. We could have discussed how the scenario could have been written differently to add better nuance. As it is, it's clear that the discussion hasn't been going anywhere productive. Thanks for hanging out this long to try to answer what questions I asked. You're taking what I'm saying about what you think about the code personally, yet you seem to think that I shouldn't take your statements about my being "vehemently against killing Samara killing Morinth" and such or that you find my alleged denial of Morinth being a liar "troubling." What's fair for you to take personally isn't fair for me to take personally????? Naw... I'm just not going to be drawn into this any further. |
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