I'd rather be Mordin Solus
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Post by I'd rather be Mordin Solus on Mar 4, 2017 14:12:08 GMT
*Ahem.* snip I admire the passion of your post, and I particularly love the soapbox opener. Very nice (no sarcasm whatsoever, seriously.) I have a daughter too, and she hasn't quite hit this age yet, but I'm not looking forward to it. Keep fighting the good fight. Back on Mass Effect, this is gonna be a hard one long range. If they put both Miranda and Cora in the same game, and then Bioware did the stats and found 4X as many people romanced Miranda... then what do they do with that? Do they cave to the common denominator or stick to their guns? Rough. They are in some ways cornered by the very media empire you decry that came before them. Being a fly on the wall during their discussion would be interesting, and probably excruciating and / or infuriating. Maybe that's true. There is empirical evidence of a certain range of what's considered beauty - symmetry etc., as you mentioned. I'd say jawline falls under the category of empirical/symmetry. Poor Cora the wallflower. (no irony)
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I'd rather be Mordin Solus
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Post by I'd rather be Mordin Solus on Mar 4, 2017 14:36:35 GMT
"That entire concept sickens me on a fundamental level."
I'm only sickened by the cruelty of the comments.
But we have to accept that people will be attracted to what attracts them. We see our ideal selves projected onto the silver screen. Just as the Greeks projected their ideal selves into marble.
That's hardwired into us. We can accept it and enjoy it, without feeling the need to punish those who don't conform to that ideal, which is VERY few of us.
Bioware is fighting a losing battle, I fear. Can't fight biology. But we can work with it, by finding the middle way and not excluding anybody.
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I'd rather be Mordin Solus
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Post by I'd rather be Mordin Solus on Mar 4, 2017 14:56:27 GMT
" I'm more than happy to appreciate the female form in this particular game, despite the "lack" of said ideal."
Fair enough. Good advice.
My only response would be that by diminishing the presence of beauty, BW has diminished the aesthetic experience of the game.
And the emotional experience of it, too, because the odds of my becoming emotionally attached to a character are now not as great.
Shallow? No, not at all. We love first with the eyes, then with heart. Men, especially. Most of the time.
This may be hurtful to some and seem unfair, but there are studies to demonstrate the truth of it. As usual, evolutionary biology is the villain here.
Raging against nature is like raging against the sun for being yellow, when we would prefer blue.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 4, 2017 17:37:01 GMT
Well, sucks to be you, I guess. I liked the DAI companions just fine. Don't have the data to judge the ME:A companions yet, but I haven't seen anything troubling so far..
And again, I don't think Bio's fighting a battle here, losing or otherwise. They're just not very interested in your problem.
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Post by Cirvante on Mar 4, 2017 17:52:15 GMT
Maybe that's true. There is empirical evidence of a certain range of what's considered beauty - symmetry etc., as you mentioned. I'd say jawline falls under the category of empirical/symmetry. A strong and defined jawline is a sign of high testosterone and is considered attractive in men by the majority of people. Facial symmetry is another important characteristic. Examples: Now, there are some beautiful women with a strong jawline, but most of them are beautiful in spite of it and not because of it. Olivia Wilde is a good example, but let's compare her to someone with more feminine facial features. Turns out, square jaws aren't really that attractive in women. Now I'm not saying that video games should be full of perfect 10s, but we're talking about the main female human love interest here. Let's face it, the majority of people look average and will have average-looking girlfriends and wifes, or a pool of average-looking potential partners to select from (or be foreveralone.jpg). Video games are often used as a form of wish fulfillment and I imagine most players are not looking for an acurate protrayal of potential partners available to them in real life. Bioware's RPGs have mediocre animations, uninspired gameplay and recently also lackluster storytelling. So what's the point of a glorified waifu simulator when the waifus are shit?
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Post by laxian on Mar 4, 2017 18:29:19 GMT
Yes, indeed. I hear your anger. I would be angry, too. If I had gone unrepresented for so long. But, it's the pendulum swing that I find worrying. Don't worry, the pendulum is still a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong way from the middle. I disagree - why? Look at school, university and college graduates (mostly women, especially at university/college level!), look at who's homeless more, who dies on the job more, who holds the more dangerous jobs (coal miners, sewer cleaners etc.), who controls most of the money (note: It's not men (in most cases!), just like men in relationships don't decide if the house is bought or not, that's why real estate agents sucker up to women more!)), who gets support left an right (domestic violence shelters for example seldom take men, despite figures showing that men are victims just as much as women (!) - don't believe me? Look it up yourself, so you can't say I doctored the statistic or only looked at statistics that confirm my POV (so no confirmation bias!)), who gets more money spent on their healthcare (example: Cancer research, more money is spent ond breat cancer research despite the fact that most women survive that - unlike prostate cancer in men!), who lives longer, who can ruin the other more easily (a woman just has to cry "rape!" and the man is ruined, even if he gets off in court (as the specter of suspicion will cling to him like the color of his skin!)), the draft (only for men!), war deaths (mostly men!), assault victims, people who get murdered (mostly men!) etc. etc. etc. (just a small number of the overwhelming number of examples!) Note: I am not a radical MGTOW or even a radical MRA (or a tradcon who wants women in the home, cooking, cleaning and looking after kids - no!), I am for TOTAL equality (equality of opportunities that is, so no gender gets advantages or disadvantages - so say good by to your pussy-pass (lesser jail sentences - if you get sentenced at all!))...if anything I am a HUMANIST (I don't care what gender you are, if you do good work and don't shirk certain work because of your gender (men: looking after kids for example! women: doing some heavy lifting (I don't expect you to carry 50 Kilo boxes or something, but neither to I expect a man to, but there's no excuse why you can't take whatever you bought at the grocery store into the house, that stuff doesn't weigh a ton! Same for changing your car-tires, why should this be male work? It's not especially hard and I know women (even girly princess types, which I normally despise, who can do this!)) or try to foist work on other people ("That's women's/men's work, I don't need/want to do that!")) I'd love it if the moderates on both sides talked and worked together (and if they silenced their radical brethren or drowned them out, but sadly: Politcians etc. only listen to loud minorities (and only if they have numbers in their favor, which MRAs don't have, there aren't all that many compared to feminists!)), but sadly that's probably not going to happen! Also: I like damend strong women, I just don't like what TV and Games is showing us these days: Strong and empowered women have to totally beat all the guys around them, otherwise they aren't strong - BULLSHIT! TV (and movies!) is especially guilty here, but games are starting to pick up on this sometimes, too (like say that that A.I. in ME:A is almost entirely run by women (note: I love women in high positions (love Spacer-Shepard's mother for example, a damned captain and later admiral in the Alliance Navy or Rear-Admiral Kastanie Drescher (in command of the second Alliance Fleet, especially since their presence didn't mean that there were no male Admirals (Anderson and Hacket come to mind!))), but ONLY WOMEN? NO!) Look at the Lara Croft reboot (the first game in the new series), Lara is not a damned badass at the start, but she's strong (she still struggles etc. but she doesn't make everybody around her look incompeten - she doesn't have to in order to shine!) So yeah, the pendulum has swung somewhat in the female direction (IMHO - I mean I read stuff like "With the same qualifications women will be preferably employed!" (German job adds! Discrimination? Sure, but it's just against men, so it's ok! - NO, IT FUCKING ISN'T!) or that a equal opportunity commissioners (yes, those are a thing in Germany, sadly enough!) who fight for men, too get fired (there's even a book out from a former equal opportunity commissioner (a woman to be exact, that job is almost always in the hands of a woman - prejudice? Sexism? You bet!) who did exactly that, support men - she was fired shortly after! Sadly most of you can't probably read that book (I don't know, but I think it's German only!)...then again there's great books out there for you guys, too like "Self Made Man: May Year Disguised as a Man"...read that, please!) greetings LAX
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 4, 2017 19:18:31 GMT
Hmm... what do the stats for professions and college graduation have to do with equality of opportunity?
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Post by Cirvante on Mar 4, 2017 20:09:49 GMT
Hmm... what do the stats for professions and college graduation have to do with equality of opportunity? Affirmative action.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 4, 2017 20:19:03 GMT
Are we still doing the "not sure if serious" Joker pic?
Put another way, do you really figure that men are going into coal mining because women have locked up all those cushy nursing jobs? And men don't have much trouble getting into college; what men in particular have trouble with is graduating.
(I'd say we're going OT, but the ostensible topic is bogus anyway.)
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I'd rather be Mordin Solus
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Post by I'd rather be Mordin Solus on Mar 4, 2017 22:16:59 GMT
"And again, I don't think Bio's fighting a battle here, losing or otherwise. They're just not very interested in your problem."
I disagree. I think they are fighting a battle. And a good one. The ME trilogy, 3 especially, did a good job of reminding me that I'm not the only person with interests.
The whole "fish doesn't know what water is" argument. I've been swimming in my white-straight-male privilege for a long time. We (straight males) assume we are the default norm.
It's important to be thrown out of that mindset on a regular bases. I was surprised by the overtly gay elements of ME3. Not shocked, but surprised in a "wow, neat," kind of way. Reminded me there were other people, different people, playing the game.
That's a good battle to be fighting. And it must be fought.
But, as someone mentioned earlier, to deny the traditional gamer his (traditionally, his) fantasy while fulfilling others, will turn off many players.
Bioware will end up preaching to the choir. (Please accept "preaching" in the figurative sense, as I intend it. I never felt ME was "preachy.")
And it seems the whole damn world is preaching to its own cozy, little choir, left and right.
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Post by jymm on Mar 7, 2017 3:55:57 GMT
And it seems the whole damn world is preaching to its own cozy, little choir, left and right. Amen brother Mordin, Amen. I'm liking you more and more, you shakespeare quoting Salarian, you.
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Post by vallixas on Mar 7, 2017 4:08:06 GMT
Dorian was not attractive to me. I thought the guy he was supposedly based off of Rafa Rech was attractive, but Dorian's in-game model eh. He looked more comical than attractive. I guess i'm not attracted to guys who look like Disney villains. And if the only characters in the game you found attractive were all male, I got some bad news boyo. The correct answer is Cullen, Varric, Blackwall > rest of DAI males. And Krem/Cullen more interesting than Varric? Cullen being interesting at all? surely you jest. One of the worst crimes commited by Bioware. Not allowing us to romance this hobbit of a hunk. Yes, of course that's true. But they admired both the male and female form. That's what I'm talking about here. The appreciation of beauty. No, they did not appreciate the female form. They considered it too fat, soft and misshapen compared to a tight young boy's body, the true ideal of human beauty. As a Bi who leans over more to males I can agree with this male body true ideal of human beauty sentiment.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 4:17:34 GMT
This has officially became the SJW thread
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Post by vallixas on Mar 7, 2017 4:23:09 GMT
This has officially became the SJW thread I'm bi but no SJW. I promise.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 4:24:02 GMT
This has officially became the SJW thread I'm bi but no SJW. I promise. not you specifically. just talking about the thread's direction in topic btw this is getting less and less to do with MEA specifically and more to do with other things.
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Post by vallixas on Mar 7, 2017 4:45:19 GMT
Maybe that's true. There is empirical evidence of a certain range of what's considered beauty - symmetry etc., as you mentioned. I'd say jawline falls under the category of empirical/symmetry. A strong and defined jawline is a sign of high testosterone and is considered attractive in men by the majority of people. Facial symmetry is another important characteristic. Examples: Now, there are some beautiful women with a strong jawline, but most of them are beautiful in spite of it and not because of it. Olivia Wilde is a good example, but let's compare her to someone with more feminine facial features. Turns out, square jaws aren't really that attractive in women. Now I'm not saying that video games should be full of perfect 10s, but we're talking about the main female human love interest here. Let's face it, the majority of people look average and will have average-looking girlfriends and wifes, or a pool of average-looking potential partners to select from (or be foreveralone.jpg). Video games are often used as a form of wish fulfillment and I imagine most players are not looking for an acurate protrayal of potential partners available to them in real life. Bioware's RPGs have mediocre animations, uninspired gameplay and recently also lackluster storytelling. So what's the point of a glorified waifu simulator when the waifus are shit? Heh the square jaws is one of the reasons German girls get such a bad rep than they deserve. Anyway, definately a sign of high t. It has just about as much to do with genetics as well though. Northern Europeans, Eastern Europeans, Amerindians from the plains, East Asians Polynesians etc naturally robust peoples with relatively large craniums.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 7, 2017 5:01:59 GMT
"And again, I don't think Bio's fighting a battle here, losing or otherwise. They're just not very interested in your problem." I disagree. I think they are fighting a battle. And a good one. The ME trilogy, 3 especially, did a good job of reminding me that I'm not the only person with interests. The whole "fish doesn't know what water is" argument. I've been swimming in my white-straight-male privilege for a long time. We (straight males) assume we are the default norm. It's important to be thrown out of that mindset on a regular bases. I was surprised by the overtly gay elements of ME3. Not shocked, but surprised in a "wow, neat," kind of way. Reminded me there were other people, different people, playing the game. That's a good battle to be fighting. And it must be fought. But, as someone mentioned earlier, to deny the traditional gamer his (traditionally, his) fantasy while fulfilling others, will turn off many players. Bioware will end up preaching to the choir. (Please accept "preaching" in the figurative sense, as I intend it. I never felt ME was "preachy.") And it seems the whole damn world is preaching to its own cozy, little choir, left and right. I was solely discussing the design of the female characters as not being part of any "war". I'll certainly sign on with Bio deliberately intending some of the mindset stuff you mention, but you're conflating unrelated design aspects. Although, of course, we can always play the "everything is political" card here. Being uninterested in supporting a particular type of fantasy can be interpreted as a political position just as deliberately opposing that type of fantasy would be. The process is a little different, but it's still a stance with consequences. It doesn't really matter. In the end, the game ends up in pretty much the same place regardless of who's right about the process. Bio DGAF about making all its women companions into models. I suppose it matters in the sense of trying to convince Bio to change the design approach, though. For that purpose, you should hope that I'm right. Casual indifference would be easier to overcome than outright hostility. And honestly, what's your point with that preaching to the choir business? If players who can't stand not being pandered to walk, then they walk. You can't cater to everybody, and shouldn't try anyway. This is starting to sound like an extended concern-trolling performance.
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I'd rather be Mordin Solus
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Post by I'd rather be Mordin Solus on Mar 7, 2017 15:55:00 GMT
"And honestly, what's your point with that preaching to the choir business? If players who can't stand not being pandered to walk, then they walk. You can't cater to everybody, and shouldn't try anyway."
But that sends us all back into our own echo chambers. The traditional male COD gamer-types will reject out of hand anything BW creates.
I think BW wants to be inclusive. And they should, both for economic reasons and, yes, SJ reasons. But inclusive should mean inclusive.
The extremism we see today in the US is dangerous. I love John Oliver, Jon Stewart et. al. I agree with 90% of what they say. But I hate their smug redneck jokes that pander to the left. It's self-righteous and chauvinistic. It pushes people away, to odious places like Breitbart.
It's counter-productive.
Having no romance options to attract the typical hetero-male works the same way.
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I'd rather be Mordin Solus
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Post by I'd rather be Mordin Solus on Mar 7, 2017 16:30:16 GMT
"Although, of course, we can always play the "everything is political" card here. Being uninterested in supporting a particular type of fantasy can be interpreted as a political position just as deliberately opposing that type of fantasy would be. "
So true. Maddening isn't? All decisions are political. Even the "normal" decisions to make Miranda sexy as hell.
The far right and the far left try to reduce this complexity to simple equations: our way = the right way.
The truth is always messy.
btw: what do you mean by "concern-trolling performance"?
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