laxian
N3
Posts: 334 Likes: 168
inherit
2918
0
168
laxian
334
Jan 20, 2017 21:17:42 GMT
January 2017
laxian
|
Post by laxian on Mar 6, 2017 1:40:29 GMT
Hey guys, I've brought this up before (in my "Andromeda Initiative Leadership inept/incompetent"-Thread), but I'd really love to know why exactly the A.I. is so fractured? Why do the colonists hate the A.I.-Leadership and Pathfinders especially? (Like the Krogan in the latest official Mass Effect video about exploration) Why do we have to do anything for them in order to be allowed an outpost on "their" planet? Shouldn't they all be part of the fucking Initiative? Shouldn't they want an outpost on their planet (for security, trade, research etc.)? Should those guys not work with us? Has the vetting been so shoddy that the A.I. took all the scum to Andromeda instead of first rate colonists, scientists, soldiers, law-enforcement guys etc. etc.? (or were there not enough volunteers so scum was taken?) I mean I've speculated that the A.I. has done something crappy to the colonists and so some of them turned to crime - but so many? Must have been awful if that's it (otherwise upstanding citizens don't turn to piracy, theft and maybe even assault and murder!)? Also: I don't like this, internal divisions should be there, sure (solving those is always part of RPGs), but with the A.I. those should IMHO be minimal (especially since we have external threats, too and those normally unite the people!), not like this - we've got several pirate/outlaw factions etc. (I mean this also implies that the people already there have had years (or maybe even decades, that would explain why they have spread like that and why they have even colonized crappy planets (extremely hot!) instead of only taking the good ones and staying together as newcomers!!), I mean the human ark is late supposedly (just like in the old trilogy, were we are the new kid on the block...hate it that they repeat this here  )) So again: WHY? Hope you've got some ideas/speculation to offer  So, the stage is yours: Discuss! greetings LAX |
|
inherit
Champion of the Raven Queen
605
0
3,489
maximusarael020
1,651
August 2016
maximusarael020
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
MaximusArael020
|
Post by maximusarael020 on Mar 6, 2017 1:44:48 GMT
Well, I'm not sure about a lot of it, but I don't think it has anything to do with vetting. I think someone asked a similar question about the Krogan from the exploration trailer to Mac, and he said something about them having their reasons, saying "Oh, yeah. Some shit went down." So I think there must have been something that happened in Andromeda to cause the split. I don't know what, but something requiring two different approaches. A Shane vs Rick type of deal.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
2540
0
Sept 22, 2024 23:29:52 GMT
Deleted
0
Sept 22, 2024 23:29:52 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2017 1:55:21 GMT
For the same reason we are today.
We just can't get out shit together.
|
|
inherit
1033
0
Member is Online
Sept 22, 2024 23:15:09 GMT
34,729
colfoley
18,215
Aug 17, 2016 10:19:37 GMT
August 2016
colfoley
|
Post by colfoley on Mar 6, 2017 2:05:38 GMT
Two things.
A. The AI made a bunch of promises and they didn't work out so people rebelled.
B. The AI has an agenda but to see that agenda through they feel they need a large support staff yet keeps this agenda secret from most of its membership. Hence the difference of people from the intiative or not.
|
|
kaind
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 605 Likes: 511
inherit
2955
0
Oct 10, 2017 22:21:08 GMT
511
kaind
605
Jan 24, 2017 18:55:50 GMT
January 2017
kaind
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by kaind on Mar 6, 2017 2:08:39 GMT
For the same reason we are today. We just can't get out shit together. Diversity fractures people not the inability to get their shit together. |
|
SwobyJ
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 2,097 Likes: 2,161
inherit
2698
0
Sept 22, 2024 18:59:04 GMT
2,161
SwobyJ
2,097
January 2017
swobyj
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by SwobyJ on Mar 6, 2017 2:22:54 GMT
Two things. A. The AI made a bunch of promises and they didn't work out so people rebelled. B. The AI has an agenda but to see that agenda through they feel they need a large support staff yet keeps this agenda secret from most of its membership. Hence the difference of people from the intiative or not. This. The unity for the Initiative was a false unity. You can see #1 clearly, that the promises of the Initiative isn't what ended up. Maybe that would have been okay, but there's also the running current of.. well, you can see this thing is basically Human run.... I wonder what could be the incentive for such a big project... (I really wonder, but my point is that its almost certain that there are secrets). A split-off and decisions to try to survive and thrive on their own, for several groups, requires quite the betrayal or at least death of confidence in this new society. Enemy units called 'Anarchists' for a reason. Hyperion's people may just barely represent a potentially better future, since the Nexus failed. |
|
laxian
N3
Posts: 334 Likes: 168
inherit
2918
0
168
laxian
334
Jan 20, 2017 21:17:42 GMT
January 2017
laxian
|
Post by laxian on Mar 6, 2017 2:24:35 GMT
Well, I'm not sure about a lot of it, but I don't think it has anything to do with vetting. I think someone asked a similar question about the Krogan from the exploration trailer to Mac, and he said something about them having their reasons, saying "Oh, yeah. Some shit went down." So I think there must have been something that happened in Andromeda to cause the split. I don't know what, but something requiring two different approaches. A Shane vs Rick type of deal. Shane and Rick who? Sorry, educate the German about that reference (I don't know that one - yet!) So, reading the other comments, just wanted to get this out of the way greetings LAX |
|
SwobyJ
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 2,097 Likes: 2,161
inherit
2698
0
Sept 22, 2024 18:59:04 GMT
2,161
SwobyJ
2,097
January 2017
swobyj
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by SwobyJ on Mar 6, 2017 2:25:18 GMT
For the same reason we are today. We just can't get out shit together. Diversity fractures people not the inability to get their shit together. They are getting shit together though. The hubs we see are clearly not total deathtraps. There is trading, there is life, there is some sort of culture happening, there are groups that cooperate, I'm sure. Ryder doesn't seem like he'll be shot on sight. What they're not doing, is uniting for the Nexus, against the Kett, in investigation of the Remnant, in repelling and suppressing rogue elements, and in care to have a central government. Something shattered that intention. |
|
laxian
N3
Posts: 334 Likes: 168
inherit
2918
0
168
laxian
334
Jan 20, 2017 21:17:42 GMT
January 2017
laxian
|
Post by laxian on Mar 6, 2017 2:29:48 GMT
Two things. A. The AI made a bunch of promises and they didn't work out so people rebelled. B. The AI has an agenda but to see that agenda through they feel they need a large support staff yet keeps this agenda secret from most of its membership. Hence the difference of people from the intiative or not. This. The unity for the Initiative was a false unity. You can see #1 clearly, that the promises of the Initiative isn't what ended up. Maybe that would have been okay, but there's also the running current of.. well, you can see this thing is basically Human run.... I wonder what could be the incentive for such a big project... (I really wonder, but my point is that its almost certain that there are secrets). A split-off and decisions to try to survive and thrive on their own, for several groups, requires quite the betrayal or at least death of confidence in this new society. Enemy units called 'Anarchists' for a reason. Hyperion's people may just barely represent a potentially better future, since the Nexus failed. If people can't deal with that: WHY DIDN'T THEY STAY FAR AWAY FROM THE A.I.? Sorry, but that's shitty justification for stealing supplies, weapons and even ships from the A.I. (they are part of the A.I. after all, but this hurts everybody!) and turning to crime (piracy etc.) greetings LAX ps: Am I stealing and attacking policemen because I hate my current government and what they are doing (note: German, so no: My President isn't Trump...it's fucking Chancellor Angela Merkel instead and I've never liked her and she has been in power a lot longer than Trump will ever be (even if he wins a second term!))? No, I am not and it's not only the fear of getting caught that's stopping me, it's the fact that you simply don't do that for petty reasons! You do shit like that when your very survival is at stake, not before! |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
2540
0
Sept 22, 2024 23:29:52 GMT
Deleted
0
Sept 22, 2024 23:29:52 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2017 2:33:52 GMT
For the same reason we are today. We just can't get out shit together. to get their shit together. Then if we can get our shit together, if that is what you're implying, we can accept and welcome people based on diversity. So this is a contradictory statement.  On the other hand, if you're not implying that we can get our shit together, and as such, we are unable, then that statement doesn't make sense either, because diversity is simply the characteristic of being different, and that, by itself, is not a justification. Prejudice and discrimination against diversity fracture people. The fact that we are still unable to beat them shows we can't get our shit together yet. |
|
inherit
1033
0
Member is Online
Sept 22, 2024 23:15:09 GMT
34,729
colfoley
18,215
Aug 17, 2016 10:19:37 GMT
August 2016
colfoley
|
Post by colfoley on Mar 6, 2017 2:36:54 GMT
This. The unity for the Initiative was a false unity. You can see #1 clearly, that the promises of the Initiative isn't what ended up. Maybe that would have been okay, but there's also the running current of.. well, you can see this thing is basically Human run.... I wonder what could be the incentive for such a big project... (I really wonder, but my point is that its almost certain that there are secrets). A split-off and decisions to try to survive and thrive on their own, for several groups, requires quite the betrayal or at least death of confidence in this new society. Enemy units called 'Anarchists' for a reason. Hyperion's people may just barely represent a potentially better future, since the Nexus failed. If people can't deal with that: WHY DIDN'T THEY STAY FAR AWAY FROM THE A.I.? Sorry, but that's shitty justification for stealing supplies, weapons and even ships from the A.I. (they are part of the A.I. after all, but this hurts everybody!) and turning to crime (piracy etc.) greetings LAX ps: Am I stealing and attacking policemen because I hate my current government and what they are doing (note: German, so no: My President isn't Trump...it's fucking Chancellor Angela Merkel instead and I've never liked her and she has been in power a lot longer than Trump will ever be (even if he wins a second term!))? No, I am not and it's not only the fear of getting caught that's stopping me, it's the fact that you simply don't do that for petty reasons! You do shit like that when your very survival is at stake, not before! people have been roused their beds and dragged six hundred years into the future then when they get there they find out they've been lied to and many of them have their own agenda to begin with? Of course they'd be a little cross. |
|
SwobyJ
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 2,097 Likes: 2,161
inherit
2698
0
Sept 22, 2024 18:59:04 GMT
2,161
SwobyJ
2,097
January 2017
swobyj
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by SwobyJ on Mar 6, 2017 2:38:01 GMT
I think we'll see enough reasons that most of us would even join them, if we were there.
|
|
inherit
Champion of the Raven Queen
605
0
3,489
maximusarael020
1,651
August 2016
maximusarael020
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
MaximusArael020
|
Post by maximusarael020 on Mar 6, 2017 2:54:22 GMT
Well, I'm not sure about a lot of it, but I don't think it has anything to do with vetting. I think someone asked a similar question about the Krogan from the exploration trailer to Mac, and he said something about them having their reasons, saying "Oh, yeah. Some shit went down." So I think there must have been something that happened in Andromeda to cause the split. I don't know what, but something requiring two different approaches. A Shane vs Rick type of deal. Shane and Rick who? Sorry, educate the German about that reference (I don't know that one - yet!) So, reading the other comments, just wanted to get this out of the way greetings LAX Oh, I'm sorry. Shane and Rick are from The Walking Dead, a comic series/TV show about a zombie apocalypse. Shane believes in evolving their morality to ensure survival. Kill or be killed, do what's best for you and the group, etc. Rick believes in maintaining the morality of the old world. Being good to your neighbor, helping those in need, etc. So those two stances lie in conflict with each other, as you can't do both. It's possible an event similarly fractured the AI into two camps. One being "Milky Way first, screw the rest" and the other waiting to be peaceful and affiliate with the natives. Just a theory. |
|
laxian
N3
Posts: 334 Likes: 168
inherit
2918
0
168
laxian
334
Jan 20, 2017 21:17:42 GMT
January 2017
laxian
|
Post by laxian on Mar 6, 2017 3:41:39 GMT
Oh, I'm sorry. Shane and Rick are from The Walking Dead, a comic series/TV show about a zombie apocalypse. Shane believes in evolving their morality to ensure survival. Kill or be killed, do what's best for you and the group, etc. Rick believes in maintaining the morality of the old world. Being good to your neighbor, helping those in need, etc. So those two stances lie in conflict with each other, as you can't do both. It's possible an event similarly fractured the AI into two camps. One being "Milky Way first, screw the rest" and the other waiting to be peaceful and affiliate with the natives. Just a theory. Ok, thanks for clearing that up I stopped watching TWD a long time ago (basically after they arrived at that prison) and I had my gripes with the series (the premise doesn't make any sense, I mean the US-Military alone has enough ammunition to kill every US-Citizen several times over and that's just for small-arms, I am not counting missiles, bombs (especially napalm works great on zombies!), grenades etc. and if push comes to shove: You can run over zombies by the hundreds with a damn tank (hell a normal vehicle can do that, too!), not to mention the fact that America is the land of guns, so zombies should worry you guys less than they would worry us in Europe!) hm...would that be a deep enough chasm to make some people turn to crime and piracy? hm...I don't know, it's a difference in opinion but that alone doesn't turn people into savages (otherwise politicians would all be bloodthirsty savages living in caves!) greetings LAX |
|
inherit
154
0
Sept 22, 2024 21:56:29 GMT
3,034
Reznore
1,319
August 2016
reznore
|
Post by Reznore on Mar 6, 2017 4:35:04 GMT
It seems the Initiative mission is just the worst idea ever. Who would have thought ? Some spoilers from the 13 min intro video
All those promised golden worlds don't seem to be golden anymore, at the very least human and Krogan have no golden world.Krogan have been here longer than humans. There's no good reason to leave the Krogan stranded on a craphole after bringing them in Andromeda.
From Peebee's mission we see people from the Milky Ways are fighting over new technologies and shooting each others, in another video the Initiative security chief looks more like a crime boss than anything else.
Also people brought it their political shenanigans from the Milky Way , with the not! Udina salarian dude already trying to make a name for himself.
Anyway peace and good lands weren't there as promised and things went to hell fast.
|
|
inherit
1148
0
858
armass81
684
Aug 23, 2016 11:48:55 GMT
August 2016
armass81
|
Post by armass81 on Mar 6, 2017 4:47:30 GMT
There something called "Nexus Uprising", a novel about it is coming, you might want to familiarize youreselves with that. In short, it appears some people got "kicked off the station", as Drack put it.
Society can crumble fast in a desperate situation por if they find or confront something really disruptive, and ordinary people turn to looters and raiders. Think Mad Max, or Walking Dead. Some people make new societies, others turns to more violent means to survive.
"Only those mobile enough to scavenge, brutal enough to pillage would survive. The gangs took over the highways, ready to wage war for a tank of juice, and in this maelstrom of decay ordinary people were battered and smashed." - Quote form Road Warrior
|
|
inherit
3478
0
139
shepherdcommander
151
February 2017
shepherdcommander
|
Post by shepherdcommander on Mar 6, 2017 5:16:08 GMT
I think the krogan thing went something like... hey, krogan, come along to AI and provide firesupport for us, we will give you a planet to colonize (insert biowares handling the genophage) hey look we found you this planet, readings show its supposed to be full of rich minerals condusive to life!
gets to planet
desert world full of death and nothing.
krogan said "I hate you Andromeda Initiative" and act like any pissed off krogan would act when they are dropped on a hostile planet and basically told "**** you heres your promised land."
and that is, provide firesupport, but now in the wrong direction, on an already hellish planet.
|
|
SwobyJ
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 2,097 Likes: 2,161
inherit
2698
0
Sept 22, 2024 18:59:04 GMT
2,161
SwobyJ
2,097
January 2017
swobyj
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by SwobyJ on Mar 6, 2017 6:37:17 GMT
Reddit:
"Krogan 1: It just doesn't feel Tuchanka-ery enough though
Krogan 2: Maybe we need to start a nuclear war
Krogan 1: Hold my rincol..."
|
|
kaind
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 605 Likes: 511
inherit
2955
0
Oct 10, 2017 22:21:08 GMT
511
kaind
605
Jan 24, 2017 18:55:50 GMT
January 2017
kaind
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by kaind on Mar 6, 2017 11:50:29 GMT
Diversity fractures people not the inability to get their shit together. Then if we can get our shit together, if that is what you're implying, we can accept and welcome people based on diversity. So this is a contradictory statement. On the other hand, if you're not implying that we can get our shit together, and as such, we are unable, then that statement doesn't make sense either, because diversity is simply the characteristic of being different, and that, by itself, is not a justification. Prejudice and discrimination against diversity fracture people. The fact that we are still unable to beat them shows we can't get our shit together yet. you either have piece and unity but everybody is the same OR you have diversity, but then you have conflict and war. Choose one. |
|
Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
N6
At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
XBL Gamertag: No.
PSN: No
Posts: 5,220 Likes: 5,079
inherit
At sunrise there is the sunset.
2139
0
5,079
Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
5,220
November 2016
thelastvanguardian
Bottom
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
No.
No
|
Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Mar 6, 2017 12:16:16 GMT
Hopefully the books shall explain.
|
|
inherit
265
0
Sept 22, 2024 10:44:40 GMT
11,985
Pounce de León
Praise the Justicat!
7,916
August 2016
catastrophy
caustic_agent
|
Post by Pounce de León on Mar 6, 2017 13:00:53 GMT
Hopefully the books shall explain. Hopefully the game shall explain. |
|
Croatsky
N4
Amateur Reporter
Old BSN veteran, I guess.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: CroGamer002
Posts: 2,243 Likes: 5,039
inherit
Amateur Reporter
2287
0
Sept 22, 2024 20:16:28 GMT
5,039
Croatsky
Old BSN veteran, I guess.
2,243
December 2016
croatsky
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
CroGamer002
|
Post by Croatsky on Mar 6, 2017 13:04:10 GMT
Because private corporations are not as efficient they want us to believe they are.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
1546
0
Sept 22, 2024 23:29:52 GMT
Deleted
0
Sept 22, 2024 23:29:52 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2017 13:13:53 GMT
Hopefully the books shall explain. Hopefully the game shall explain. Absolutely, I have no intention of reading the books, no matter how curious I may be; my casual reading time goes to other things. Besides, this cross-media BS is usually an excuse to throw together 10 half-assed stories together, rather than taking the trouble to write one full-assed story and present it properly in the game. As to the topic: The more internal strife, political intrigue, conspiracies, etc., there are, the better for me. This hopefully isn't a 'save the galaxy from the ultimate threat'-type of story, so I hope they're doing something more nuanced instead. |
|
inherit
10
0
Aug 30, 2019 23:02:33 GMT
16,068
SalMasRac
Salarian Master Pimp
2,932
August 2016
salmasrac
Mass Effect Trilogy, KOTOR
SalMasRac
PurpGuy
|
Post by SalMasRac on Mar 6, 2017 13:14:15 GMT
There something called "Nexus Uprising", a novel about it is coming, you might want to familiarize youreselves with that. In short, it appears some people got "kicked off the station", as Drack put it. Society can crumble fast in a desperate situation por if they find or confront something really disruptive, and ordinary people turn to looters and raiders. Think Mad Max, or Walking Dead. Some people make new societies, others turns to more violent means to survive. "Only those mobile enough to scavenge, brutal enough to pillage would survive. The gangs took over the highways, ready to wage war for a tank of juice, and in this maelstrom of decay ordinary people were battered and smashed." - Quote form Road Warrior So I dunno if you guys are familiar with Youngstown Ohio, or its surrounding area. About 30 miles south of there is a little pissant village called East Liverpool. Several years ago there was a storm that blew through the area, and power went out for about 20 minutes. During that 20 minutes, Wal-Mart was SACKED AND LOOTED. It was total anarchy. The people inside flipped an internal switch just as easily as flipping the lights themselves. Humanity is garbo, and the alien AI races probably figured that out by the time the Human Ark arrives. Hell most of them already knew that when ME1 opened. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
1546
0
Sept 22, 2024 23:29:52 GMT
Deleted
0
Sept 22, 2024 23:29:52 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2017 13:16:28 GMT
And here is Greta Garbo.  She seems nice, though. |
|
))
