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Post by bardox on Aug 16, 2016 15:14:03 GMT
An old argument, but one that no ME forum is complete without. A thread dedicated to the Genophage.
For most of my playthroughs, I keep the genophage. Kill Wrex in ME1, the most gut wrenching moment of the entire trilogy. Destroy the data in ME2. Agree to hide the sabotage of the shroud from Wreav. Now I love Wrex as much as any and think his ME2 plans are the true path for the Krogan to back away from the edge of extinction, but his plans in ME3 with a cure in place is far too dangerous IMO. Can't allow it. A cured Krogan reproduce too fast and will never run out of excuses for needing more planets and resources. A new Krogan rebellion is unavoidable. If and when that happens, the Krogan might not be lucky enough to simply get off with a variation of the Genophage. Their utter extinction could be what follows.
The Genophage is not a sterility plague. It reduces the birth rates to a manageable number. Something the Krogan refuse to do on their own. If they didn't spend their lives killing each other they would not be anywhere near the low population levels that they are. But as Wrex says in ME1, "Ask a Krogan what he would rather do, cure the Genophage or fight for credits. He''ll choice fighting every time." Their moronic violent nature is why they are dying. Not the Genophage.
Mordin, in ME2, makes the best case for why the Genophage is needed. His guilt over the entire affair is what gets to him in his old age. Trying to right what he sees as a wrong before he dies. An unchecked Krogan is simply too dangerous for the galactic community as a whole. As a Spectre, you duty is to maintain galactic stability. A cured Krogan goes directly against that mandate. It is cruel, but for the safety of the rest of the galaxy it must be done.
No matter your choices, with the cure, unchecked expansion WILL ultimately threaten the rest of the Galaxy. The response will end the Krogan. Even if the Krogan get near extinction, they seem to be very easy to clone. If their numbers get too low, you can just grow a few hundred or even a thousand infants and pass them off to the female clans or produce some full grown like Grunt. The Krogan can be kept from extinction without a cure. With a cure, they are doomed.
That's my opinion anyway. Over thinking it I'm sure, but as I said in my intro I am a lore junkie and tend to project myself into my characters. Even though they are just games, I take the choices seriously.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 16, 2016 15:18:13 GMT
I don't cure the genophage. I have just to see/hear the results.
I have no reason to cure it. Doesn't matter if eve is alive. Whether Wrex/Wreav are in charge. When the Salarians offer help for the crucible, I take it. The more resources I get to help fight the reapers, the better.
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Post by Ahriman on Aug 16, 2016 18:30:35 GMT
Judging by official lore (which doesn't make sense, but that's not the point) they can have 1000 children per year. This. Is. Madness.
Genophage was a favour to krogans, even if brutal one. With Wrex in charge we are supposedly get Good ending, but let's face it, he'll die sooner or later. His rule will let krogans expand and grow for a few centuries without war, but it will only make inevitable explosion bigger.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Aug 16, 2016 19:10:01 GMT
I'll have to dig up my posts on this later. Short version though, there is absolutely zero chance of Krogan Rebellions 2.0, and curing the genophage may actually be the crueler, but more effective means of getting them in line and contributing, or ending them once and for all.
Hint: It all comes down to logistics.
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Post by Zemgus on Aug 16, 2016 19:31:40 GMT
I decided not to cure the genophage. It's like Shepard says other krogans are not like Wrex. Eventually he'll die or be killed by those who oppose his rule.
When salarians created the genophage the krogans should have tried to work to together, fix the problems in Tuchanka and give their children the best possible chance of life. They didn't do that and there is no evidence that curing the Genophage would make them any better. Wrex is always very dramatic when it comes to genophage, going on about how the krogans are slowly going extinct, but that's obviously not true. It's like Mordin explained the genophage is merely keeping the krogan population in check.
It's interesting that the choice of curing or sabotaging the genophage is Shepard's alone to make. Not even the Alliance or the Council know about it. Only the dalatrass and other salarians. The one good thing about curing the genophage would be that it would mean the krogans owe humans for their salvation. Humans had nothing to do with creating the genophage so if Shepard cures it they're heroes to the krogans. That could be good alliance to have. Krogans are the most fearsome warriors in galaxy, after all.
Still, I also remember what Okeer said about genophage. It will make the krogan stronger as it will kill the weak and promote the strong. "They will learn to fear the lance." Anyway, interesting to see how this subject will be handled in MEA... Mordin said the krogan were starting to adapt to the genophage and that's why he had to create a new genophage. Was that enough or will they start to naturally overcome it again? Of course with the salarians already confirmed as being in MEA they can continue to keep the krogans in check, should that happen...
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Post by SaikyoMcRyu on Aug 16, 2016 21:39:20 GMT
I pretty much have chosen every genophage playthrough option except the ones that involve killing Wrex in ME3.
Since the obvious problem with curing the genophage is the likely result of one googolplex of enraged revenge-thirsty kroggenz, I think a better question is how do the races of the galaxy negotiate with the Krogans to keep them from conquering the universe or perhaps blowing it up (which would be pretty funny to a sizable faction of Krogans).
I suggest supporting Clan Urdnot as the monarchs of the Krogans. Presumably with Wrex and Eve alive they'd raise a more rational and less bloodthirsty royal family. On the other hand you could always end up with another Wreav and then the party starts all over again.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 16, 2016 22:08:43 GMT
The main thing about the Genophage harming the Krogan isn't so much the Genophage itself or even their warrior culture(not to say these aren't big factors, just not the main one imo), but the environment in which they live in being extremely hostile, both from the effects of nuclear war to the problems that have always been there like every creature there can kill you. If they lived on a planet like Earth, even with the Genophage they would have a very stable increase in population since their birthrate is akin to humans: about 1 child per female every year. Since they can live a lot longer than us, that is still hundreds to maybe even a couple thousand children in a female's lifetime. If you take away the hostile environment and other factors, even with the Genophage they are one of the races least likely to go extinct.
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Post by General Mahad on Aug 16, 2016 23:15:13 GMT
With Wrex and Eve, I always cure the genophage; however, I understand Krogan can easily restart their genocidal expansionist campaign if Wrex or Eve get assassinated, so I would hope that the STG or Turians or even the Alliance have Bio weapon projects ready just in case.
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Post by Vortex13 on Aug 17, 2016 14:52:28 GMT
The Genophage was absolutely necessary given how aggressive the Krogan were, even after numerous appeasement attempts by their allies. What's more, the narrative of the games likes to focus on the poor maligned citizens of Tuchunka, and yet gloss over the fact that many are still alive from the time of the Krogan Rebellions; a conflict that saw them dropping asteroids on several Turian garden worlds, rendering them completely uninhabitable and killing untold numbers of Turian civilians. Even with the restrictions of the Genophage in place, we still have yet to see the Krogan as a whole show any sort of effort into trying to better themselves, or at least improve their lives. Heck, Tuchunka is still a radioactive hellhole after 2,000 years, made only remotely habitable thanks to the efforts of the Salarians. They have demonstrated that they can't or won't practice the most basic form of population control for their numbers, nor do they present any indication towards environmental conservation efforts. The Rachni were better managers of their numbers and better caretakers of their holdings than the Krogan ever were, and yet curing the Genophage is the "Good" Choice according to ME 3.  |
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Post by straykat on Aug 17, 2016 16:38:17 GMT
As much as I'm wary about a cure, I go for it. If only for the same reasons I destroyed AI. For chaos.. for letting things develop over time, without control or oversight. Or Councils or Reapers.
For better or worse.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2016 16:38:36 GMT
I've cured it with Wrex and Eve surviving and it's very sweet, but honestly I'd never do it. My canon is to fake it whilst being a good friend of Wrex's. Haven't done it yet but I gather it won't go well.  The cold hard truth for me is - 1. Don't put a damn gun to my head, forcing me to do such a huge thing that could have monumental repercussions for the galaxy when Earth and Palaven are burning. It's a dick move by the krogan and puts my Shep in a very bad mood. Plus she's hurt by Wrex's attitude, his whole demeanour whilst the turians and humans are going through hell is awful. 2. The consequences could be catastrophic, especially given the rest of the krogan's attitude. All it would take is for Wrex (who's pretty old now) to keel over with a heart attack and you're left with a bunch of obstinate war hungry clan members to work with. Great. 3. A genophage was produced once, and altered many times. It can be done again. Why not, after the Reapers are gone, make it so that twice as many krogan survive compared to the current strain? And if they're still in decline, 3 times as many. Save the species without bringing down hell upon everyone. My opinions anyway...I'm inclined to think that most ppl who cure it are either ignorant of the history and lore of the game, or are super knowledgeable and believe in the krogan going forward. ME3 should've done a better job, I can't fathom why they wrote it so that I feel like a bitch for faking the cure. It was the right thing to do. (imo) |
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Post by roselavellan on Aug 17, 2016 17:55:29 GMT
I'm doing my first playthrough of the trilogy and I cured the genophage yesterday. I did not feel comfortable doing it, for the reasons that ArcadiaGrey and everyone else have stated, and I do feel like I was bullied into the decision. I'm definitely feeling less friendly towards Wrex now (though I still like Eve).
And I think it was overly simplistic to be presented with a yes/no solution like that. Mordin was already working on a modification to the genophage. I would have thought that the best compromise for everyone would be to produce instead a partial cure, to improve krogan fertility levels without restoring it fully. This would give the krogan what they want (fertile females) while keeping some semblance of population stability.
I believe the initial genophage was not exactly ethical, but I disagree with trying to correct that with another mistake.
Anyway, I'm still extremely grumpy about ME3 Tuchanka mission, and I'm thinking of starting the trilogy over (I've already played 100 hours, I am so p****d), and letting Ashley kill Wrex this time, so I can leave the genophage uncured and also save Mordin.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2016 18:07:18 GMT
I'm doing my first playthrough of the trilogy and I cured the genophage yesterday. I did not feel comfortable doing it, for the reasons that ArcadiaGrey and everyone else have stated, and I do feel like I was bullied into the decision. I'm definitely feeling less friendly towards Wrex now (though I still like Eve). And I think it was overly simplistic to be presented with a yes/no solution like that. Mordin was already working on a modification to the genophage. I would have thought that the best compromise for everyone would be to produce instead a partial cure, to improve krogan fertility levels without restoring it fully. This would give the krogan what they want (fertile females) while keeping some semblance of population stability. I believe the initial genophage was not exactly ethical, but I disagree with trying to correct that with another mistake. Anyway, I'm still extremely grumpy about ME3 Tuchanka mission, and I'm thinking of starting the trilogy over (I've already played 100 hours, I am so p****d), and letting Ashley kill Wrex this time, so I can leave the genophage uncured and also save Mordin. It was badly handled yes, a compromise could've been reached. In fact, many Sheps who fake the cure might have decided to compromise instead. That would be better for the krogan than a fake cure that does nothing. As someone said (Mordin??), it was either genocide or the genophage. The Salarians worked to find a lesser of two evils and not wipe the krogan out. Yet they get little sympathy in ME3. Are you on PC? If so, you can download the gibbed editor. You open your save and go to the plot tab. There you can change the choices so Wrex is dead and you won't have to replay.  |
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Post by Vortex13 on Aug 17, 2016 18:28:58 GMT
Yeah I still am annoyed at Wrex for how he treated the whole situation. I figured him for an intelligent Krogan, and yet here he is practically holding the entire galaxy hostage perfectly willing to let every advanced life form in the galaxy die if he doesn't get exactly what he wants; like some petulant 2 year old. Even with the Genophage in place, the Krogan can still survive as a species, surely that would be preferable to flat out extinction at the tentacles of the Reapers? But no, the entire galaxy has to put their war with the Extra-Galactic invaders on hold so that we can all play doctor. What's funny is that Wrex was way more reasonable in ME 2, and his methods of uniting the Krogan in the second game made way more sense in light of the odds stacked against everyone.
Add into this scenario the Salarians, who are now playing the part of Snidely Whiplash apparently. Forget all the good they have done for the galaxy at large and the Krogan in particular; seriously, it was either Genophage or genocide at the conclusion of the Rebellions, also who built the Shroud that makes Tuchunka even remotely livable? Forget the fact that Wrex barged into a highly classified military base with all the subtly of a tornado and wasn't immediately shot, as well as their ignoring of blatantly racist slurs spoken by Wrex (and Javik if present) mere moments after storming onto the compound.
Really, out of the two parties I felt that the Salarians were far more dignified in their approach to the situation (the cartoonishly evil Dalatrass notwithstanding). They were calm and logical, as opposed to belligerent and erratic, but the 'feelz' dictate that Wrex should be in the right.
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Post by straykat on Aug 17, 2016 18:42:09 GMT
my canon playthrough doesn't have wrex, so ill give the attitude problem to wreav instead  and yet I leaned on the cure all the same. I can only hope that grunt and eve replace wreav. it seems like a no brainer. the story would've been better if brian kindregan was still on the team. he wrote grunt originally (as well as jack) and had a whole alternative story with the male shaman and okeer. The minute it all went to Patrick Weekes, it just emphasized the Genophage cure. He doesn't care about anything else except his pet projects. Same goes for other things. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2016 18:48:23 GMT
my canon playthrough doesn't have wrex, so ill give the attitude problem to wreav instead and yet I leaned on the cure all the same. I can only hope that grunt and eve replace wreav. it seems like a no brainer. the story would've been better if brian kindregan was still on the team. he wrote grunt originally (as well as jack) and had a whole alternative story with the male shaman and okeer. The minute it all went to Patrick Weekes, it just emphasized the Genophage cure. He doesn't care about anything else except his pet projects. Same goes for other things. Can you elaborate on that original storyline? Sounds interesting... |
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Post by straykat on Aug 17, 2016 18:58:47 GMT
my canon playthrough doesn't have wrex, so ill give the attitude problem to wreav instead and yet I leaned on the cure all the same. I can only hope that grunt and eve replace wreav. it seems like a no brainer. the story would've been better if brian kindregan was still on the team. he wrote grunt originally (as well as jack) and had a whole alternative story with the male shaman and okeer. The minute it all went to Patrick Weekes, it just emphasized the Genophage cure. He doesn't care about anything else except his pet projects. Same goes for other things. Can you elaborate on that original storyline? Sounds interesting... Well, it was just what was in ME2. Weekes and Kindregan wrote Tuchanka in 2.. Weekes mostly wrote the Mordin stuf, but Kindregan wrote the Krogans. Male Shaman was much like Okeer, in thinking that it was "good" to destroy themselves. lol. They believed that the Krogan will only be worthy of glory if they endured hardship. He was pushing "quality over quanity" more like. And if you disagreed with him, he's sad. "I thought you of all aliens would understand." Once he was gone, Weekes just made everything about the Genophage. On a sidenote, I feel like he did this to Jack too. She was also Kindregan's character, but when he left, Weekes started telling people to just kill her. He just didn't care about any of the big picture or responsibility to overall story. At the same, he wrote his own character romance (Tali) in an idealized way. He just seems petty to me. And I think it's why the Genophage story might've suffered. He just likes his own stuff. |
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Post by roselavellan on Aug 17, 2016 19:00:13 GMT
It was badly handled yes, a compromise could've been reached. In fact, many Sheps who fake the cure might have decided to compromise instead. That would be better for the krogan than a fake cure that does nothing. As someone said (Mordin??), it was either genocide or the genophage. The Salarians worked to find a lesser of two evils and not wipe the krogan out. Yet they get little sympathy in ME3. Are you on PC? If so, you can download the gibbed editor. You open your save and go to the plot tab. There you can change the choices so Wrex is dead and you won't have to replay. I liked the Salarians in general. Do you mean they get little sympathy plot-wise, or from the gaming community? It feels to me that while you were pushed to acknowledge that the genophage was wrong from a paragon POV, there still seems to be plenty of support for the view that it was a necessary evil. Thanks! Yes, I'm considering the save editor. I might go that route, but my modding capabilities are severely limited I'm looking into it today, Mordin's death yesterday made me absolutely miserable. |
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Post by themikefest on Aug 17, 2016 19:13:12 GMT
.Anyway, I'm still extremely grumpy about ME3 Tuchanka mission, and I'm thinking of starting the trilogy over (I've already played 100 hours, I am so p****d), and letting Ashley kill Wrex this time, so I can leave the genophage uncured and also save Mordin. Wrex doesn't have to be killed on Virmire for him not to show up in ME2/3. Just don't recruit him in ME1. To save Mordin, delete Maleon's data during his loyalty mission. |
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Post by straykat on Aug 17, 2016 19:19:22 GMT
I should add that I don't dislike Weekes exactly. I said I cured the genophage myself. It's just that he seems to get in the way of what I find fun in Bioware... how we can direct/craft our own stories. Always feels like things he get more focused or he plays favorites, when he's around.
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Post by Vortex13 on Aug 17, 2016 19:44:44 GMT
I got that same feeling with him in regards to the Geth as well. Chris L'Etoile, who was my favorite writer working for BioWare, wrote some really compelling 'alien' elements to the universe. But as soon as he left and Weeks took over the Geth suddenly became very much about abandoning all the things that made them unique and 'alien' and instead started pursuing things that made them more in line with humanity. If I recall correctly Weeks and L'Etoile had several disagreements about how Legion was to be portrayed in ME 2 as well. EDIT: Dang reply feature lol |
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Post by straykat on Aug 17, 2016 20:00:43 GMT
I got that same feeling with him in regards to the Geth as well. Chris L'Etoile, who was my favorite writer working for BioWare, wrote some really compelling 'alien' elements to the universe. But as soon as he left and Weeks took over the Geth suddenly became very much about abandoning all the things that made them unique and 'alien' and instead started pursuing things that made them more in line with humanity. If I recall correctly Weeks and L'Etoile had several disagreements about how Legion was to be portrayed in ME 2 as well. EDIT: Dang reply feature lol Yeah, losing L'toile and Kindregan were big losses. They both wrote a lot of my favorite stuff. |
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Post by roselavellan on Aug 17, 2016 20:42:28 GMT
Wrex doesn't have to be killed on Virmire for him not to show up in ME2/3. Just don't recruit him in ME1. To save Mordin, delete Maleon's data during his loyalty mission. Thanks. I think I'd rather restart from Virmire than from the beginning of ME1, at least it'll save me several hours. Plus, Ashley actually killed him at first in my game, I realise now that I made a mistake reloading and saving him. I guess sometimes good choices don't always work out in your favour. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2016 21:00:16 GMT
It was badly handled yes, a compromise could've been reached. In fact, many Sheps who fake the cure might have decided to compromise instead. That would be better for the krogan than a fake cure that does nothing. As someone said (Mordin??), it was either genocide or the genophage. The Salarians worked to find a lesser of two evils and not wipe the krogan out. Yet they get little sympathy in ME3. Are you on PC? If so, you can download the gibbed editor. You open your save and go to the plot tab. There you can change the choices so Wrex is dead and you won't have to replay. I liked the Salarians in general. Do you mean they get little sympathy plot-wise, or from the gaming community? It feels to me that while you were pushed to acknowledge that the genophage was wrong from a paragon POV, there still seems to be plenty of support for the view that it was a necessary evil. Thanks! Yes, I'm considering the save editor. I might go that route, but my modding capabilities are severely limited I'm looking into it today, Mordin's death yesterday made me absolutely miserable. In the game. They're portrayed as the bad guys when in reality they found another way. By creating the genophage they stopped the krogan from having to be wiped out. I downloaded the ME3 gibbed editor recently. Zaeed had died in the SM, god knows how I didn't notice.  I wanted him alive but not loyal. So I loaded my current save, found the plot tab and unchecked the box marked 'Zaeed is loyal'. Met him on the Citadel and he died, as he should if he's not loyal. Worked a treat. So as long as you do it beforehand it should be okay and have no ramifications. If I were you I'd delete everything to do with the genophage and take the game back to before you start that plot arc. You'd have to load up a save before the Genophage plot in gibbed, maybe on Palaven's moon or on the Citadel afterwards, but before you meet Wrex. Then find the box for Wrex and click and un-click whatever you have to to make him dead. Hopefully then, when you go back into the game, Wreav will turn up. He's delightful by the way.  To save Mordin make sure you've destroyed Maelon's data in ME2, if you didn't find the box for that in gibbed as well. Honestly I just open up all the tabs and look around until I find what I need. Haven't broken the game. Yet. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2016 21:04:14 GMT
Can you elaborate on that original storyline? Sounds interesting... Well, it was just what was in ME2. Weekes and Kindregan wrote Tuchanka in 2.. Weekes mostly wrote the Mordin stuf, but Kindregan wrote the Krogans. Male Shaman was much like Okeer, in thinking that it was "good" to destroy themselves. lol. They believed that the Krogan will only be worthy of glory if they endured hardship. He was pushing "quality over quanity" more like. And if you disagreed with him, he's sad. "I thought you of all aliens would understand." Once he was gone, Weekes just made everything about the Genophage. On a sidenote, I feel like he did this to Jack too. She was also Kindregan's character, but when he left, Weekes started telling people to just kill her. He just didn't care about any of the big picture or responsibility to overall story. At the same, he wrote his own character romance (Tali) in an idealized way. He just seems petty to me. And I think it's why the Genophage story might've suffered. He just likes his own stuff. Crap. That sucks, I liked Solas a lot and was hopeful of his taking over from Gaider. But hearing that..... Jack is a pretty great character, it's awful if he just told ppl to kill her. |
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Be seeing you.
and yet I leaned on the cure all the same.
I wanted him alive but not loyal.